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| Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven (309839) | |
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| (310852) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 10:40:44 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 10:40:10 2016. I have three times. 1.4 via continental vs 1.0 via woodhaven. .4 miles added. |
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| (310854) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 10:48:04 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 23 21:55:55 2016. In your opinion because it applies to drivers who do not count. According to you and DOT, it's only the bus passengers who natter. That is what is wrong with this proposal. Help 20 percent of the people and hurt the other 80 percent. (Help 30,000 as opposed to hurting 120,000). |
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| (310855) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 10:51:25 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 10:39:04 2016. "Very possible that your average speed on the detour would be less than ten mph."If traffic were that bad, Woodhaven times would be long too. "The distance traveled on 88 Street is not short at all. It is 11 intersections. In Manhattan, that could take 30 minutes." Half a mile. In Manhattan, traffic does not average 1 MPH. Besides, what does Manhattan have to do with this? "The travel time up the overpass without any traffic is only about 30 seconds. Add 30 seconds to wait for the light to change and you have one minute." Greater than half a mile in 30 seconds from a stop? You should not still have a license. "I am saying when there is congestion on the overpass and it takes five minutes to get over it, then if the detour on 88 Street takes 8 minutes, that would be a 3 minute difference." What the hell does congestion on the overpass have to do with it? Either way, all of your numbers are completely unsubstantiated. "I have not justified bus lanes at all." Yes, you have! "I have presented a very logical case against them." I doubt you have ever presented a very logical case against anything. "You claimed that the 73rd Avenue detour is feasible." Yes, because it is! "When I pointed out it would take an extraordinary amount of time," It won't, but that isn't the point. "you conclude I justified the bus lanes." YES! IF TRAFFIC IS SO BAD THAT DELAYS ARE AS SIGNIFICANT AS YOU SAY, BUS LANES ARE REQUIRED FOR BUSES TO BE OF ANY USE AT ALL!!! " Totall nonsense. What you stated dies not follow." See above |
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| (310856) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 10:52:19 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 10:29:12 2016. I probably will next time I am able. But considering that your numbers have been proven wrong nearly everywhere else, I won't trust them here. |
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| (310857) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 10:57:04 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 10:48:04 2016. "In your opinion because it applies to drivers who do not count. According to you and DOT, it's only the bus passengers who natter."No. According to me and the DOT, the preferential treatment that drivers have been given does need to come to an end. "That is what is wrong with this proposal. Help 20 percent of the people and hurt the other 80 percent. (Help 30,000 as opposed to hurting 120,000)." If those were the numbers, I am still not convinced that the SBS project would be a bad idea. They aren't though. The ratio is in the neighborhood of 1:2. |
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| (310858) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by fdtutf on Wed Feb 24 11:05:43 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 23 21:20:53 2016. So what are the great improvements? Buses save ten minutes over a ten mile route when the average local bus passenger trip is 2.3 miles? That's a two minute time savings for the average bus passenger. Big deal!And yet somehow, for a car trip to take five additional minutes is the end of the world. What was that about valuing everybody's time equally again? |
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| (310859) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 11:21:57 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 10:52:19 2016. The videos are posted here as 1, 2 and 3. |
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| (310860) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 11:23:11 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 11:21:57 2016. Sorry, I hit post before pasting the link.The videos are listed here as 1, 2, and 3. http://www.sheepsheadbites.com/2015/04/the-commute-nyc-department-of-transportation-dot-announces-final-plans-for-woodhaven-boulevard/ |
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| (310861) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 11:26:09 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 10:57:04 2016. No the preferential treatment needs to come to an end for a minority of the users that are favored. Example install bike lanes to benefit 2,000 while it hurts like over 50,000 or perhaps a 100,000 like on Queens Blvd.You should give preferential treatment to 80 percent of the users. |
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| (310862) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 11:33:36 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by fdtutf on Wed Feb 24 11:05:43 2016. No one car trip taking 5 additional minutes is not the end of the world. But when it happens at dozens of locations to thousands of cars daily the cumulative effect is significant. I certainly am valuing everybody's time equally. I see 20 percent of the people saving an insignifant time savings (an average of ten minutes off of a 75 or 90 minute trip) or a 10 percent time savings vs an increased trip time of at least 15 minutes for 80 perecent of the population. Drivers are definitely getting screwed. Their additional time is being ignored as is the effect on the economy and increased air pollution from additional congestion and fuel usage. |
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| (310863) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 11:35:33 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 11:23:11 2016. Your videos clearly show the turn onto Metropolitan clearing with under 10 cars turning per cycle. 10 cars is not 50 cars. |
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| (310864) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 11:37:52 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 11:26:09 2016. "No the preferential treatment needs to come to an end for a minority of the users that are favored. Example install bike lanes to benefit 2,000 while it hurts like over 50,000 or perhaps a 100,000 like on Queens Blvd."Bicycles are growing quite quickly, and do not cause the societal problems cars do. We are way behind in creating the bike lanes that the city needs. "You should give preferential treatment to 80 percent of the users." Yes. That is why Pedestrians and Public transit need to be favored. |
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| (310865) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 11:39:15 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 11:33:36 2016. But your numbers are all made up.And furthermore, they are internally inconsistent! Your insignificant times are larger than your significant times! |
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| (310866) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 11:47:41 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 10:32:14 2016. Okay so how many passengers did you assume per car. I know your response. You didn't make any assumptions because you do not know the proper number. That is a cop out. You insist I am incorrect while failing to provide an alternative.I didn't say someone riding a short distance would be unaffected by bus lanes. I said the significance would be so small as not to make a meaningful difference. Saving two minutes is insignificant when you consider that just missing a bus can cost you ten minutes. If DOT were correct that removing a lane of traffic makes it move faster, drivers in Rego Park would not be complaining of commutes that are now 20 to 45 minutes longer. They would not be switching more to the slow Alderton Street which has become faster than Woodhaven and they wouldn't be traveling out of their way to use the Van Wyck which will not be considered when DOT releases its traffic counts if it ever does. Of course you will just dismiss those complaints as undocumented. "Slowing the speed is a stated goal" But lowering the speed limit also slows down buses from 35 mph top speed to 30 top speed, or 25 top speed when DOT again lowers the speed limit to match Queens Blvd. End result -- After all the speed limit reductions and money spent, buses will travel slower in the non rush hours which will balance out the minutes they will save during the peak hours. So when you consider everything together, buses will move no faster when all is said and done after is project is completed than before it started. So not only will cars travel slower. BUSES WON'T BE SAVING ANY MINUTES ON THE WHOLE EITHER AS A RESULT OF THE EXCLUSIVE LANES. The only time savings will occur from paying before you board assuming that doesn't cause you ten extra minutes by missing a bus to get your receipt if the machine is even working. |
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| (310867) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 12:05:38 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 11:47:41 2016. "Okay so how many passengers did you assume per car. I know your response. You didn't make any assumptions because you do not know the proper number. That is a cop out. You insist I am incorrect while failing to provide an alternative."Yes. I don't like to make unsubstantiated assumptions. That said, DOT's counts put the overall number at roughly 2 car occupants per every bus rider, so your assumptions end up being wrong somewhere, probably each of them. "I didn't say someone riding a short distance would be unaffected by bus lanes. I said the significance would be so small as not to make a meaningful difference. Saving two minutes is insignificant when you consider that just missing a bus can cost you ten minutes." You claim such would be small. I see no basis behind that. "If DOT were correct that removing a lane of traffic makes it move faster, drivers in Rego Park would not be complaining of commutes that are now 20 to 45 minutes longer." Drivers always complain. Usually without any basis behind it. "They would not be switching more to the slow Alderton Street which has become faster than Woodhaven and they wouldn't be traveling out of their way to use the Van Wyck which will not be considered when DOT releases its traffic counts if it ever does." A. it has? Google traffic right now shows Alderton as 3 minutes longer. B. DOT obviously considers people rerouting. Gee, another unsubstantiated assumption. "Of course you will just dismiss those complaints as undocumented." YES! BECAUSE IT IS!!! "Slowing the speed is a stated goal" "But lowering the speed limit also slows down buses from 35 mph top speed to 30 top speed, or 25 top speed when DOT again lowers the speed limit to match Queens Blvd. End result -- After all the speed limit reductions and money spent, buses will travel slower in the non rush hours which will balance out the minutes they will save during the peak hours." Yes, but so what? The speeds would be reduced even further should the modifications NOT be made. "So when you consider everything together, buses will move no faster when all is said and done after is project is completed than before it started. So not only will cars travel slower." You still don't get variables. Reduction of speed overall is happening regardless of what is being done with SBS. They are not connected. "BUSES WON'T BE SAVING ANY MINUTES ON THE WHOLE EITHER AS A RESULT OF THE EXCLUSIVE LANES." No. "The only time savings will occur from paying before you board assuming that doesn't cause you ten extra minutes by missing a bus to get your receipt if the machine is even working." No. Time savings occur from A. The reduction of traffic. B. The reduction of the effects of traffic. C. Fare prepayment. D. Reduction of delays related to stopping(besides fare prepayment). Not just C. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 12:07:31 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 10:38:09 2016. I didn't say the average trip on Woodhaven is 2.3 miles. I said that was a City average. I conceded that on Woodhaven it is probably higher, but not by much if you don't consider the two bridges without any stops the bus must cross that is unaffected by SBS."NONE OF THAT IS NEEDED TO MAINTAIN ORDINARY LANES" Yes, that is exactly what I started. You stated the opposite that bus lanes do not require more maintenance than ordinary lanes which I successfully disputed by stating ordinary lanes do not need to have missing or faded bus signs replaced or rust colored pavement replaced. YOU CANNOT BE ON BOTH SIDES OF THAT ARGUMENT. So which is it? Do bus lanes require extra maintenance or don't they? So you say the maintenance to keep up the bus lanes is minimal? What do you call "minimal". I know who won't venture a guess because you don't know. WELL IF YOU DON'T KNOW, you can't very well claim it will be minimal. THEREFORE YOUR CLAIM IS THOROUGHLY UNSUBSTANTIATED. Twenty routes. Let's say each route has 15 stops. With at least four machines per stop, that is 60 machines. 60 times 20 is 1,200. That is already over a thousand machines. That means additional employees will have to be hired at the Central Electronics Shop where I worked for nine years to service those machines. Plus this machines will need new parts. Parts and labor do not come cheap. Not to mention the vehicles and fuel needed to travel to and from the machines. Then you have the pension costs when those employees retire. THAT IS COMPLETELY SUBSTANTIATED. How is there reduced maintenance costs or reduced fuel costs to the buses? They will still travel the same amount of miles by making more trips. Does the fine revenue even go to the MTA? IS THAT SUBSTANTIATED? Yes there is some reduced labor costs from reduced run times because buses are making fewer stops causing passengers to walk further taking away from their time savings. THE MTA WOULD HAVE TO PROVE THAT THE ENTIRE PACKAGE IS A POSITIVE. They have not been able to do that yet. SO THE NET BENEFITS OF SBS ARE UNSUBSTANTIATED. |
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| (310869) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by fdtutf on Wed Feb 24 12:09:28 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 11:33:36 2016. But when it happens at dozens of locations to thousands of cars daily the cumulative effect is significant.But when it happens at dozens of locations to thousands of bus riders daily, the cumulative effect isn't significant? As always and forever, your bias is showing. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 12:23:00 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 12:07:31 2016. "I didn't say the average trip on Woodhaven is 2.3 miles. I said that was a City average. I conceded that on Woodhaven it is probably higher, but not by much if you don't consider the two bridges without any stops the bus must cross that is unaffected by SBS."Exactly- Woodhaven IS higher. Which is my point. The assumption you base it on is wholly irrelevant. ""NONE OF THAT IS NEEDED TO MAINTAIN ORDINARY LANES" Yes, that is exactly what I started. You stated the opposite that bus lanes do not require more maintenance than ordinary lanes which I successfully disputed by stating ordinary lanes do not need to have missing or faded bus signs replaced or rust colored pavement replaced. YOU CANNOT BE ON BOTH SIDES OF THAT ARGUMENT. So which is it? Do bus lanes require extra maintenance or don't they?" I am not on both sides. Nothing is required for a bus lane that is not required for other lanes. ""So you say the maintenance to keep up the bus lanes is minimal? What do you call "minimal". I know who won't venture a guess because you don't know. WELL IF YOU DON'T KNOW, you can't very well claim it will be minimal. THEREFORE YOUR CLAIM IS THOROUGHLY UNSUBSTANTIATED."" The incremental cost is near zero as bus lanes require what other lanes require. "Twenty routes. Let's say each route has 15 stops. With at least four machines per stop, that is 60 machines. 60 times 20 is 1,200. That is already over a thousand machines. That means additional employees will have to be hired at the Central Electronics Shop where I worked for nine years to service those machines. Plus this machines will need new parts. Parts and labor do not come cheap. Not to mention the vehicles and fuel needed to travel to and from the machines. Then you have the pension costs when those employees retire. THAT IS COMPLETELY SUBSTANTIATED." Much cost is overhead. Things can often be scaled up without adding incremental costs. "How is there reduced maintenance costs or reduced fuel costs to the buses?" less stop and go= better fuel efficiency. "They will still travel the same amount of miles by making more trips." Huh? "Does the fine revenue even go to the MTA? IS THAT SUBSTANTIATED?" Doesn't matter. Goes to city regardless. That IS substantiated. "Yes there is some reduced labor costs from reduced run times because buses are making fewer stops causing passengers to walk further taking away from their time savings." For some other runs perhaps. Not really true for Woodhaven considering that they really aren't cutting many stops. The time vs convenience with regards to stops is an issue for any bus route. The MTA seems to be looking closely here and on other SBS (And limited) routes and adjusts as needed. "THE MTA WOULD HAVE TO PROVE THAT THE ENTIRE PACKAGE IS A POSITIVE. They have not been able to do that yet. SO THE NET BENEFITS OF SBS ARE UNSUBSTANTIATED." You claim that. Nearly everybody else sees a bunch of successful improvements which have turned around the routes they are on. I consider SBS routes for runs I NEVER would have taken a bus for before. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Feb 24 13:21:05 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 10:12:43 2016. 1.2 and 1.6 are widely recognized standards.LOL!! Really? Says where? You obviously have NO CLUE about transportation planning!!!! There are no "standards" for "average vehicle occupancy for any given stretch of road in the USA for any given year, day, and time". |
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| (310873) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by fdtutf on Wed Feb 24 13:27:41 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 10:12:43 2016. 
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Feb 24 13:40:04 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 10:29:12 2016. Only about 20 can get through in the 15 second turning phase.DUDE. 20 cars can not make a left turn in 15 seconds. |
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| (310875) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Feb 24 13:41:54 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 10:51:25 2016. Greater than half a mile in 30 seconds from a stop? You should not still have a license.Not to mention should not still be pretending to be a transportation planner. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Feb 24 13:44:06 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 11:39:15 2016. yep! |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Feb 24 13:44:18 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by fdtutf on Wed Feb 24 12:09:28 2016. exactly! |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Feb 24 13:44:32 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 11:33:36 2016. lay off the crack pipe |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Feb 24 13:44:53 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by fdtutf on Wed Feb 24 13:27:41 2016. LOL! |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 13:50:25 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Feb 24 13:40:04 2016. You are assuming safe operation!Taking him at his word, he is demonstrating that left turns off Woodhaven are threats to humanity! |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 13:54:09 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by fdtutf on Wed Feb 24 12:09:28 2016. Of course not! He isn't a bus rider, so why should they matter? |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 15:12:59 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 11:35:33 2016. Quit changing what I am saying. I never said 50 cars turn on each cycle. I said up to 50 cars want to turn on each cycle. And I seriously doubt only ten cars turn at each cycle, I will check the video again. And don't forget this was just one random occurrence. I didn't say the videos represent the peak. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 15:16:15 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 11:37:52 2016. I am sorry, but pedestrians have to be treated differently than other roadway users since they use the sidewalk and not the street. If you apportioned the use of 42 Street according to the number if pedestrians vs. otter users. It would only have one lane of traffic in one direction only. Then public transit is even less than 20 percent if you want to count pedestrians into the mix. You can't have it both ways! |
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| (310884) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 15:17:49 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 11:39:15 2016. Please explain further. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 15:25:08 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 15:12:59 2016. The videos show roughly 10 being able to turn, and show that cars are not building up, which means roughly 10 desire to turn. I made no claim that you said 50 can turn. You said 20 can, which is blatantly incorrect. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by JerBear on Wed Feb 24 15:27:27 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 10:29:12 2016. Assuming a car length of 16 feet, and assuming every car is right up on top of the one in front of it, you could stack 28 cars from Metropolitan to Cooper, another 8 between Cooper and Yellowstone, so the 50th car would be up by the gas station where the road curves. |
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| (310887) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 15:27:37 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 15:16:15 2016. "I am sorry, but pedestrians have to be treated differently than other roadway users since they use the sidewalk and not the street."And buses should get their own lanes as well! And bikes! "If you apportioned the use of 42 Street according to the number if pedestrians vs. otter users. It would only have one lane of traffic in one direction only." One lane in each direction would likely be a sensible change. "Then public transit is even less than 20 percent if you want to count pedestrians into the mix. You can't have it both ways!" Yes. If one were to reduce 42nd street to two lanes, buses would obviously use the traffic lanes, not the sidewalk. |
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| (310888) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 15:37:19 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 15:17:49 2016. "No one car trip taking 5 additional minutes is not the end of the world."Correct. (For future reference, 5 additional minutes is significant.) "But when it happens at dozens of locations to thousands of cars daily the cumulative effect is significant." Yes, but not relevant to Woodhaven SBS. "I certainly am valuing everybody's time equally." Obviously not. I see 20 percent of the people saving an insignifant time savings (an average of ten minutes off of a 75 or 90 minute trip) You see, the problem here is that you intentionally underestimate bus ridership. (For future reference: 10 minutes is insignificant) "or a 10 percent time savings vs an increased trip time of at least 15 minutes for 80 perecent of the population." You see, the problem here is that you intentionally overestimate vehicle riders. Another problem is that you create this absurd notion that there will be a 15 minute increase for them. They are roughly 2/3rds of Woodhaven's throughput and there is NO REASON to assume they will have ANY increase in trip time AT ALL. "Drivers are definitely getting screwed." Only in your head. "Their additional time is being ignored as is the effect on the economy and increased air pollution from additional congestion and fuel usage." It is being ignored because it does not exist. I tend to ignore things which do not exist. I suspect DOT does as well. Please explain further. 10 > 5. Therefore, Insignificant amounts of time are greater than significant amounts of time! |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 15:43:20 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 12:05:38 2016. Show me where DOT says there are two car occupants to every bus rider. Citation please or your claim IS UNFOUNDED.I see no basis where you claim the savings by bus passengers would be large. Yes dismiss any claims by drivers as unfounded because as you say drivers always complain. By the same token I can dismiss all claims by bus riders that buses are slow' late and delayed by traffic because bus riders also always tend to exaggerate. They will wait an extra ten minutes and tell you they waited 30. SORRY BUT THERE IS NO EVIDENCE FOR YOU TO ASSUME THAT DRIVERS ALWAYS EXXAGERATE WHILE BUS RIDERS TELL THE TRUTH. SHOW ME THE SCIENTIFIC STUDY THAT CAUSED YOU TO CONCLUDE THAT. Your claim that drivers EXXAGERATE more than any other segment of the population is UNFOUNDED DOT does not consider drivers who change their route. The traffic study for the M15 only looked at traffic on First and Second Avenue. There' were no before and after counts for Third or York Avenues, the two streets that are beside First and Second where traffic might have shifted. Your Google traffic for noon proves my point. . If Alderton is only three minutes longer at 11:47 AM, when Woodhaven traffic moves freely and the bus lane is not in effect, you can bet it may be 7 minutes quicker when there is one lane less on Woodhaven with much more traffic. But since traffic tends to equalize itself, I would say that after the traffic diverts to Alderton, traffic times would be about equal. An arterial should be much faster than a slow residential street. If it is made a one way south, traffic on Woodhaven would just get much worse and other alternatives will be sought such as 88 Street, worsening traffic and accidents there. But you will not hear about Woodhaven when DOT puts together their traffic numbers. "Yes, but so what? The speeds would be reduced even further should the modifications NOT be made" I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. You say "reduction of speed overall (I assume you mean speed limit) is happening regardless of what is done with SBS. They are no connected." That is not what DOT is saying now. They now say SBS on Woodhaven and Vision Zero are both part of their Complete Streets Plan. That makes them VERY CONNECTED. Prove to me exclusive lanes will be saving buses time during the non-rush hours. Buses are traveling at top speed. Last Saturday I caught up to Limited bus at Metropolitan Avenue and I was not able to overtake it until Queens Boulevard. So tell me why an exclusive lane is needed and how will it make the bus go any faster. YOUR CLAIM THAT BUSES WILL SAVE TIME DURING THE OFF PEAK WITH EXCLUSIVE LANES IS UNFOUNDED. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 15:44:54 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 15:43:20 2016. Sorry, up I forgot to close the bold after "unfounded" and didn't preview a second time. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 15:46:49 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 13:54:09 2016. I am a bus rider and they do matter but not as much as the other 80 percent of motorized roadway users. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 15:47:29 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by fdtutf on Wed Feb 24 12:09:28 2016. We all know that bus riders tend to exaggerate delays. Right? |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 15:48:52 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 13:50:25 2016. So we should then prohibit all left turns everywhere, correct? |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 15:50:24 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by fdtutf on Wed Feb 24 13:27:41 2016. That's the best you can do? You just ran out of useless replies. Ha Ha. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by fdtutf on Wed Feb 24 15:51:51 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 15:47:29 2016. And motorists don't? Give me a break.It's well known that regardless of mode, waiting time is perceived as being much longer than time spent traveling. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by fdtutf on Wed Feb 24 15:52:18 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 15:50:24 2016. Whatever you need to believe, bucko. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 16:02:17 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 15:43:20 2016. "Show me where DOT says there are two car occupants to every bus rider. Citation please or your claim IS UNFOUNDED."http://www.nyc.gov/html/brt/downloads/pdf/brt-woodhaven-faq.pdf 1915 bus riders across Myrtle. 3342 Other vehicle occupants. You're welcome. "I see no basis where you claim the savings by bus passengers would be large. Yes dismiss any claims by drivers as unfounded because as you say drivers always complain. By the same token I can dismiss all claims by bus riders that buses are slow' late and delayed by traffic because bus riders also always tend to exaggerate. They will wait an extra ten minutes and tell you they waited 30. SORRY BUT THERE IS NO EVIDENCE FOR YOU TO ASSUME THAT DRIVERS ALWAYS EXXAGERATE WHILE BUS RIDERS TELL THE TRUTH. SHOW ME THE SCIENTIFIC STUDY THAT CAUSED YOU TO CONCLUDE THAT. Your claim that drivers EXXAGERATE more than any other segment of the population is UNFOUNDED" That is the DOT, not bus riders. but reliability is hard to argue against with regards to SBS. It is sky high compared to the other routes. "DOT does not consider drivers who change their route. The traffic study for the M15 only looked at traffic on First and Second Avenue. There' were no before and after counts for Third or York Avenues, the two streets that are beside First and Second where traffic might have shifted." Just blatantly false. Just because YOU don't have those numbers doesn't mean they weren't taken. "Your Google traffic for noon proves my point. . If Alderton is only three minutes longer at 11:47 AM, when Woodhaven traffic moves freely and the bus lane is not in effect, you can bet it may be 7 minutes quicker when there is one lane less on Woodhaven with much more traffic." No you can't bet that. What part of that don't you understand? Number of lanes is not directly related to trip times. "But since traffic tends to equalize itself, I would say that after the traffic diverts to Alderton, traffic times would be about equal." Potentially. "An arterial should be much faster than a slow residential street." Why? And besides, what does this have to do with Alderton. It isn't your average slow residential street. It is a rather dense mostly residential street. "If it is made a one way south, traffic on Woodhaven would just get much worse and other alternatives will be sought such as 88 Street, worsening traffic and accidents there. But you will not hear about Woodhaven when DOT puts together their traffic numbers." Wow! More unsubstantiated claims. ""Yes, but so what? The speeds would be reduced even further should the modifications NOT be made" I have no idea what that is supposed to mean." With traffic speeds being reduced REGARDLESS of SBS, Bus speeds would be reduced more than if they had their own lanes. "You say "reduction of speed overall (I assume you mean speed limit) is happening regardless of what is done with SBS. They are no connected." That is not what DOT is saying now. They now say SBS on Woodhaven and Vision Zero are both part of their Complete Streets Plan. That makes them VERY CONNECTED." Just because they are part of the same project, doesn't make them connected. The speed limits will be reduced regardless of the bus lanes. "Prove to me exclusive lanes will be saving buses time during the non-rush hours. Buses are traveling at top speed." Who says it will? I think the real reason for having off peak bus lanes is reliability, not speed. "Last Saturday I caught up to Limited bus at Metropolitan Avenue and I was not able to overtake it until Queens Boulevard. So tell me why an exclusive lane is needed and how will it make the bus go any faster. YOUR CLAIM THAT BUSES WILL SAVE TIME DURING THE OFF PEAK WITH EXCLUSIVE LANES IS UNFOUNDED." Where did I claim that? |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 16:02:45 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 15:44:54 2016. No worries. I won't judge your formatting :) |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 16:03:34 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 15:46:49 2016. So you admit that you think bus riders don't matter as much as other users!We are finally getting somewhere! |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 16:05:02 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 15:47:29 2016. Yes! that is true regardless of mode. That is why I ignore anecdotal data, REGARDLESS OF MODE.That is why ANECDOTAL DATA FROM CAR USERS is absolutely NOT comparable to REAL DATA FROM BUS RIDERSHIP AND PERFORMANCE STATISTICS! Now we are REALLY getting somewhere!!! |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 16:05:45 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 15:48:52 2016. Yes. Left turns should be prohibited wherever you are driving, for the sake of humanity. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 16:06:30 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by fdtutf on Wed Feb 24 15:51:51 2016. Yes! Which is why anecdotal data is useless. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by fdtutf on Wed Feb 24 16:33:22 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 16:06:30 2016. I've heard that to account for this, some transportation planners multiply actual waiting time by a factor of three. That takes into account the psychological effect of waiting time without the distortions introduced by individual people's perceptions (i.e., anecdotes!). |
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