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| (310779) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Mon Feb 22 14:11:03 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 22 13:25:17 2016. "SBS supposed to be an improvement and since it costs far more to operate, it only makes sense that for it to be successful, it should outperform other routes. I guess common sense is not one of your strong points."Performance can be measured in many ways. While ridership HAS risen on SBS lines in general, such is far from the only metric to use to judge success. It is just the metric we have most easily accessible to us. "since it costs far more to operate" Really? How much more? Wow! Another Allan Rosen unsubstantiated claim!!! "If enforcement improves at any time even if it is not during the first year, of course it has to do with SBS. What else does it have to do with? If there is no enforcement of fare paying or the bus lanes and the system doesn't work at all, are you saying that enforcement if it exists or doesn't is unrelated to SBS? That would be utter ridiculous." You still have no concept of what it means to isolate variables. "I heard that the MTA will be producing B44 SBS results next month. I guess I should just ignore anything they say about what happened during the second year of operation according to you, because what happened during the second year has nothing to do with SBS." It has nothing to do with the SBS changes, no. Lets call the effects of SBS "X" AX > BX holds true for whatever X is as long as A > B. AX < BX holds true for whatever X is as long as A < B. AX = BX holds true for whatever X is as long as A = B. |
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| (310780) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Mon Feb 22 14:12:35 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 22 13:25:17 2016. it only makes sense that for it to be successful, it should outperform other routes.No, not necessarily. I guess common sense is not one of your strong points.Wrong. It IS was one of his strong points. It is NOT one of yours, it would seem, however. I guess I should just ignore anything they say about what happened during the second year of operation according to you, because what happened during the second year has nothing to do with SBS.Wrong, that's not what we're saying. |
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| (310781) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Mon Feb 22 14:50:16 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 22 14:10:49 2016. "Because it makes sense. To say a high percentage of those passing 157th Avenue and also Elliot Avenue would assume that cumulatively very few cars are turning on and off the roadway at all the intersections between those two points? That would be utterly ridiculous. No assuming 120,000 people in cars does not assume everyone is traveling a short distance. You just made that up. Even if most everyone were traveling long distances, that would be the number."Simply false. If people are travelling the full distance between the points the counts were taken at the different locations would all be counting the same car. the only way it would be as high as 120K is if they were all counting DIFFERENT cars. "I am certainly not deflating the number of bus passengers. I am using DOTs numbers. I am also not inflating the number of cars." You seem to imply MTA ridership is below 30K. That is not true. You then state that non MTA bus ridership is 5K. The total of the known 30K MTA bus riders and your assumed 5K non MTA bus riders is 35K, not the 20K you said. That is a substantial artificial deflation. You reduced the number to slightly over half of what it should be. "First you claim I said that cars are all riding short distances which I never said." You didn't say that. You just used numbers which assume that. Assuming you are internally consistent (Granted, a big assumption on my part) such are functionally the same. "Now you say I am assuming cars stay on the road the entire length. I never said that either. You are just making things up because you can't accept the facts and logic I presented." I never said you said that. I SAID THAT COULD BE THE CASE, as a hypothetical. My point was that assuming LONGER trip lengths, using the same numbers (with a different set of assumptions), you get a MUCH lower count of car users. "The "substantial" amount of express bus riders is not "substantial" it is only about 7 percent of total Woodhaven ridership if my math is correct." I get 8.75%, but regardless, 7% is certainly substantial. "Even if the average Lmited rider travels for five miles on the limited, adding the locals brings the average down somewhat." Considering how much higher the Limited ridership is than the local, If the locals will not affect it too much. Assuming the riders on the limited ride 5 miles on average, and the total combined averages 1.8 miles per ride, the local buses would have to be traveling negative distances. That is not possible from the perspective of my perhaps overly traditional understanding of the space time continuum. "What would you say the average ride on Woodhaven /Cross Bay is " I don't like to make unsubstantiated assertions. "and don't forget it is inflated due to the lengthy Cross Bay and Addabbo bridges,where there are no stops so limited or local doesn't make a difference there." Obviously. "When you consider the middle class is moving out and lower income people are moving in, it certainly does make a difference on the economy." Potentially. But since the reverse is what is really happening, your point is absurd. "When you consider the increased congestion, the amount of time you accelerate to top speed, stop and slow down for traffic lights, a top speed of 15 is not unrealistic for rush hours. At other times it will be your average speed." Potentially. But there is no basis behind your numbers here. There is also no reason to assume congestion will increase. "Drivers were using Alderton before when Woodhaven was congested. Now they are using it more because congestion has increased. That's why residents are now callng for a one-way once again. It is certainly related to the exclusive bus lanes. SBS is not yet in effect, so of course it is not related to that." You claim that the increase is recent. No article seemed to connect the increase to the bus lanes. "Ten years ago is very relevent unless you assume congestion today is less than what it was then. It is much more." You just showed why it is not particularly relevant. Thank you for proving my point. "Eliminating left turns certainly does not reduce traffic. IT INCREASES IT. You obviously don't understand how traffic works. "You have to travel a longer distance to make three rights if it is at all possible." Yes. That is not a big deal. "In many cases it isn't, You also have to consider traffic on surrounding streets, not only the traffic on Woodhaven. THAT IS WHAT IS MEANT BY A CORRIDOR." Not that many cases. Yes. It is ok if traffic increases slightly on adjacent streets. "Okay. I will go to Stop and Shop as you proposed. So I first make a left onto Trotting Course Lane. Is that correct? Oops I just got hit head on because Trotting Course is a one way northbound. What do I do now?" Trotting course is to become two way. "DOT changed their proposal to make Trotting Course a two-way, but they no longer show that in their revised proposal. The the routing I specified is correct and is the shortest route to Stop and Shop." I'll believe it when DOT posts an addendum. You are not an honest person, nor do you have the capacity to read and understand a traffic plan, so forgive me for not taking you at your word. |
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| (310782) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Mon Feb 22 15:01:54 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 22 14:10:49 2016. Even if Trotting course Lane wasn't to be made bidirectional, there are ways of getting to that stop and shop without going 1 mile out of your way. |
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| (310790) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 22 21:50:14 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Mon Feb 22 14:11:03 2016. Go check the staff summaries. Each one asks to Board for $2 to $3 million in additional annual operating costs for SBS. And those are only the MTA costs. There are also the DOT costs to maintain the roadway markings and signage. They don't last forever. Repairing the machines do not come cheap. All the BX12 machines had to be replaced after three years. But according to the MTA is most expensive ongoing component is for the Eagle Team.IF SBS ridership went up for the first year, that means given the same levels of service, it was successful for the first year. If there was a big drop in patronage after that, it is no longer successful and modifications need to be made to get it back on track, maybe add or delete stops, increase enforcement, increase or decrease service etc. According to your rationale, we need not monitor any routes after the first year once we declare it a success because only the first year matters. All we need to do is devote all our efforts to establish new routes. Ridiculous. If existing routes have problems and they do, those must first be addressed before we create additional routes with problems. |
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| (310791) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Mon Feb 22 22:06:23 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 22 21:50:14 2016. "IF SBS ridership went up for the first year, that means given the same levels of service, it was successful for the first year."Yes, that means the changes are positive. "If there was a big drop in patronage after that, it is no longer successful" Perhaps that means there is an issue with the route. It does not indicate THAT THE ISSUE HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH CHANGES MADE 2 YEARS PRIOR. " and modifications need to be made to get it back on track," Perhaps, but there is no indication that that has to do with SBS. " maybe add or delete stops, increase enforcement, increase or decrease service etc." Yes, those are universally things which should be constantly looked at with regards to each route. Absolutely NOTHING special about such with regards to SBS "According to your rationale, we need not monitor any routes after the first year once we declare it a success because only the first year matters." Nobody ever said that. What you don't seem to understand is: THOSE HAVE NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH THE SBS CONVERSION. "All we need to do is devote all our efforts to establish new routes." Huh? "Ridiculous. If existing routes have problems and they do, those must first be addressed before we create additional routes with problems." So just because some routes have problems we should not improve any routes? Absurdity. |
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| (310792) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 22 22:07:13 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Mon Feb 22 14:50:16 2016. Let's say I is only 30,000 north and southbound at Elliot, though it is probably closer to 40,000 each way because it is so close to Queens Boulevard. (DOT did not provide numbers for the north part of the roadway. I am not going to check now, but the numbers crossing 157th Avenue are also about 60,000. So are you saying those are all the same cars? Impossible. If 20 percent are the same, it would be a lot. If only half the cars are the same *nearly impossible), you already have 90,000 cars. Since there are more than 1 person per car, you already have over 100,000 giving you all the benefits of the doubt. That is still over three times the number of bus passengers. Realistically it is probably five times the number of bus passengers.Now you say making three right turns is not a big deal. First you insisted banning left turns reduces congestion when it requires additional mileage, not to mention where an additional mile is required such as having to go to Furmanville because you can't turn left on Metropolitan. No it is not okay if cars are diverted to adjacent streets. Just go ask the residents who live there. Look at their "Frequently Asked Questions where they list where they are proposing to add new left turns? Do you see Trotting Course listed? I don't. They removed it just as they removed the proposed left new left turn at Cooper or else they were just plain sloppy by forgetting to include those turns which isn't acceptable either. THE FAQ IS THE ADDENDUM TO THEIR PLAN." |
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| (310793) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 22 22:07:44 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Mon Feb 22 15:01:54 2016. Name one. |
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| (310794) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Mon Feb 22 22:31:25 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 22 21:50:14 2016. "Go check the staff summaries. Each one asks to Board for $2 to $3 million in additional annual operating costs for SBS. And those are only the MTA costs."Pretty minor considering the great improvements they bring. "There are also the DOT costs to maintain the roadway markings and signage. They don't last forever." Has to be done anyway. "Repairing the machines do not come cheap. All the BX12 machines had to be replaced after three years." Yes. Lessons are learned. Now the MTA knows what type of machine is needed. The cleaning contract for the machines was $300K systemwide. Pennies. "But according to the MTA is most expensive ongoing component is for the Eagle Team." Unsubstantiated, but certainly believable. Unfortunately, there is no mechanism for them to work on non-sbs buses too, where fare enforcement would also be of use. |
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| (310795) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Mon Feb 22 22:36:53 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 22 22:07:13 2016. " So are you saying those are all the same cars? Impossible."Unsubstantiated assumption. If 20 percent are the same, it would be a lot. Unsubstantiated assumption. "If only half the cars are the same *nearly impossible), you already have 90,000 cars." Unsubstantiated assumption. Since there are more than 1 person per car, you already have over 100,000 giving you all the benefits of the doubt. Unsubstantiated assumption based on unsubstantiated assumptions. That is still over three times the number of bus passengers. Realistically it is probably five times the number of bus passengers. Unsubstantiated assumption based on unsubstantiated assumptions. |
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| (310796) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Mon Feb 22 22:41:57 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 22 22:07:44 2016. Using 67-41 Woodhaven as it makes the math easy.Direct on Woodhaven: 1.0 miles. Right on Cooper, Left on Metropolitan, Right on Continental, Right on Union turnpike: 1.4 miles. .4 miles is less than a mile! It is amazing! Allan Rosen is wrong again!!!! |
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| (310797) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Mon Feb 22 22:44:30 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 22 22:07:44 2016. I'll even name two!Direct on Woodhaven: 1.0 miles. Right on Cooper, Left on 88th, Left on Union Turnpike. 1.4 miles again! .4 miles is STILL less than a mile! The Amazing Allan Rosen is doubly wrong!!! Lets see how he can make even more mistakes as the thread progresses! |
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| (310798) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Mon Feb 22 22:44:32 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 22 22:07:44 2016. I'll even name two!Direct on Woodhaven: 1.0 miles. Right on Cooper, Left on 88th, Left on Union Turnpike. 1.4 miles again! .4 miles is STILL less than a mile! The Amazing Allan Rosen is doubly wrong!!! Lets see how he can make even more mistakes as the thread progresses! |
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| (310803) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Feb 23 11:37:35 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Mon Feb 22 14:11:03 2016. Only if X is positive. |
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| (310806) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 23 11:41:39 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Feb 23 11:37:35 2016. True, absolute value needs to be inserted somewhere. |
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| (310807) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 23 11:51:58 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Mon Feb 22 22:44:32 2016. Okay .4 miles isn't a mile. But it is still too much especially when you consider all the other left turns that will require similar additional travel.And how much additional time will that take? Don't forget that all the cars currently making a left onto Union Turnpike plus many of the 30 or so cars currently turning left at each traffic cycle onto Metropolitan also will be diverted to Cooper westbound. You are also assuming that everyone wil figure that out. And what about northbound users currently making a left to Metropolitan who will now have to travel north all the way to Furmanville? Do you have an alternative for that extra mile of travel? |
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| (310808) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 23 11:55:38 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Mon Feb 22 22:31:25 2016. No one has shown any "great improvements".Wrong. bus lane repainting does not have to be done when there are no bus lanes. The cleaning contract does not include other maintenance or labor costs to replace paper or the cost of paper and ink. |
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| (310809) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 23 11:59:29 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Mon Feb 22 22:36:53 2016. Each car only contains one passenger.Unsubstantiated assumption. All 30,000 bus passengers would benefit from SBS. Unsubstantiated assumption. Drivers would switch from car to bus with SBS. Unsubstantiated assumption. Traffic would improve after SBS. Unsubstantiated assumption. Every car crossing 157 Street is also crossing Eliot Avenue. Definitely not the case. Totally impossible to believe. |
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| (310810) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 23 12:00:53 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Mon Feb 22 22:44:30 2016. How is that two? |
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| (310811) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 23 12:03:30 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 23 11:51:58 2016. "Okay .4 miles isn't a mile. But it is still too much especially when you consider all the other left turns that will require similar additional travel."Yes, .4 miles isn't a mile. That is my point. Purely opinion that such is too much. "And how much additional time will that take? Don't forget that all the cars currently making a left onto Union Turnpike plus many of the 30 or so cars currently turning left at each traffic cycle onto Metropolitan also will be diverted to Cooper westbound. You are also assuming that everyone wil figure that out." Not particularly much additional time. Assuming they go at 10 miles an hour, 2-3 minutes. Not a big deal. I see no reason to assume people can figure out the most direct route to their destination. If they do not, it is their fault not the DOT's. It is not the DOT's fault if someone at WTC desiring to go to NJ takes the Battery Tunnel, Williamsburg Bridge, and Holland tunnel to get there. "And what about northbound users currently making a left to Metropolitan who will now have to travel north all the way to Furmanville? Do you have an alternative for that extra mile of travel? " Right on 73rd, left on Metropolitan. 700 foot diversion. 3 minutes out of your way. IF YOU ARE ON FOOT. |
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| (310812) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 23 12:05:50 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 23 11:55:38 2016. "No one has shown any "great improvements". "Opinion. Not supported by reliability metrics. "Wrong. bus lane repainting does not have to be done when there are no bus lanes." The paint doesn't care whether it is marking a bus lane, general traffic lane, bike lane, fire lane, crosswalk, or any other type of lane. "The cleaning contract does not include other maintenance or labor costs to replace paper or the cost of paper and ink." Correct. I did not claim it does. |
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| (310813) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 23 12:09:36 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 23 11:59:29 2016. "Each car only contains one passenger.Unsubstantiated assumption. " Yes! I flat out said it is an unsubstantiated assumption unlikely to be true. "All 30,000 bus passengers would benefit from SBS. Unsubstantiated assumption." No. Never made said assumption. That said, the bus lanes would benefit all 30K passengers. the modifications of stop placement may not. "Drivers would switch from car to bus with SBS. Unsubstantiated assumption." No. Never made said assumption. That said, it is a near certainty that some would. BUT, in order to be conservative, it was assumed that NONE would. "Traffic would improve after SBS. Unsubstantiated assumption." No. Never made said assumption. But such is fairly likely. "Every car crossing 157 Street is also crossing Eliot Avenue. Definitely not the case. Totally impossible to believe." Yes. I do not believe such is the case. |
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| (310814) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 23 12:11:06 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 23 12:00:53 2016. 1. Right on Cooper, Left on Metropolitan, Right on Continental, Right on Union turnpike: 1.4 miles.2. Right on Cooper, Left on 88th, Left on Union Turnpike. 1.4 miles again! |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Feb 23 12:29:56 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Mon Feb 22 22:06:23 2016. good post |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Feb 23 12:31:09 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 22 21:50:14 2016. IF SBS ridership went up for the first year, that means given the same levels of service, it was successful for the first year. If there was a big drop in patronage after that, it is no longer successful and modifications need to be made to get it back on track, maybe add or delete stops, increase enforcement, increase or decrease service etc. According to your rationale, we need not monitor any routes after the first year once we declare it a success because only the first year matters. All we need to do is devote all our efforts to establish new routes. Ridiculous. If existing routes have problems and they do, those must first be addressed before we create additional routes with problems.Bad post. |
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| (310818) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Feb 23 12:31:50 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 23 12:11:06 2016. owned |
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| (310819) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Feb 23 12:32:15 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 23 12:00:53 2016. Do you not know how to use this site? Do you not know that he made two posts?? |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Feb 23 12:38:44 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 23 11:51:58 2016. Okay .4 miles isn't a mile. But it is still too muchWTF?? That's all you're going to say?! He just ripped to shreds the lie that you've been repeating here forever about there being 1-mile detours and that's all you're going to say? You're not going to admit that you made it all up? You're not going to admit that you lied? You're not going to admit that you're not an honest debater, and that you're ok deceiving people just to look like you are right or that you know something? You're not going to admit that you're either too lazy, or just plain don't know how, to measure the length of the detour like R30A did before making any such claims publicly? You're not going to admit that you lack the basic skills and qualities necessary to be an effective and reputable transportation planner and public advocate? You're not going to admit that this single example of you being shown to be wrong is indicative of everything we've been saying about you for years here??? You're not going to admit that THIS is why you generally are not trusted and why you generally can not and are not taken at your word whenever you make statements without verifiable proff? Get real. |
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| (310821) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Feb 23 12:40:18 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 23 12:09:36 2016. own3d own3d own3d |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 23 21:13:05 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 23 12:03:30 2016. It's more than 2 to 3 minutes extra. More like at least five. Are you going to tell me that the speed on 88 Street which is a narrow two-way is the same as on the Woodhaven overpass to Union Turnpike without any lights? During rush hours when traffic over that overpass is slow, then it might be only another three minutes. Not at other times when it takes one minute to get over the overpass.It would take two minutes or more just get to Metropolitan and Cooper depending on the traffic on Cooper which would increase. Then from there to Union Turnpike would take another three or four minutes, then another minute to get back to Woodhaven. That's about 7 minutes as compared to one. And do you have any idea how slow traffic on 37th Avenue is on weekends? It takes five minutes just to get in and out of the parking lot. And let's see big trucks trying to make that right turn into 73rd Avenue and go around Trotting Course Lane to Metropolitan and back to Woodhaven. All it takes is one truck to delay every vehicle behind it. Your 73rd Avenue reroute could take ten extra minutes. |
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| (310828) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 23 21:15:53 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 23 21:13:05 2016. And 50 cars lined up on the overpass to make a right turn to 73rd Avenue instead of a left onto Metropolitan would cause a huge back up on the overpass resulting in only two moving lanes. Great solution! |
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| (310829) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 23 21:20:53 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 23 12:05:50 2016. So what are the great improvements? Buses save ten minutes over a ten mile route when the average local bus passenger trip is 2.3 miles? That's a two minute time savings for the average bus passenger. Big deal!General traffic and fire lanes do not need rust color paint or the words that say "bus lane". A general traffic lane only needs lane markings. You implied a cleaning contract was all that is needed. I merely pointed out that is a very small part of the maintenance required. |
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| (310830) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 23 21:27:27 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 23 12:09:36 2016. I stated a car contains an average of 1.2 or to 1.6 passengers. You are the one who insisted that each car only carries one passenger, not me, by treating the number of vehicles as if they were passengers.Someone who rides a half mile or a mile to a subway would not be affected significantly by a bus lane since they would save a minute perhaps. DOT claimed traffic would improve for everyone after SBS. Maybe you didn't. Unsubstantiated assumption. You now admit there is some turn over. So what percentage of cars crossing 157th would you say are also crossing Elliot since you believe it is not 20 percent as I claimed? |
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| (310831) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 23 21:32:08 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 23 21:27:27 2016. "I stated a car contains an average of 1.2 or to 1.6 passengers."Yes. That is not factual. "You are the one who insisted that each car only carries one passenger, not me, by treating the number of vehicles as if they were passengers. " I never did such. "Someone who rides a half mile or a mile to a subway would not be affected significantly by a bus lane since they would save a minute perhaps." Do you really not understand how buses work? That is entirely false. "DOT claimed traffic would improve for everyone after SBS. Maybe you didn't. Unsubstantiated assumption." Actually it is very much substantiated. They actually point out the traffic improvements they are going to make! Traffic improvements which have been proven time and time to increase road capacity and reduce traffic! But you are correct in that it was DOT and not me. "You now admit there is some turn over." I have always stated such. " So what percentage of cars crossing 157th would you say are also crossing Elliot since you believe it is not 20 percent as I claimed? " I don't make assert false figures when I do not have actual counts. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 23 21:35:47 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 23 21:20:53 2016. "So what are the great improvements? Buses save ten minutes over a ten mile route when the average local bus passenger trip is 2.3 miles? That's a two minute time savings for the average bus passenger. Big deal!"What does the average local bus passenger have to do with this line? Where do you get a 10 minute savings from? See? UNSUBSTANTIATED ASSUMPTIONS. "General traffic and fire lanes do not need rust color paint or the words that say "bus lane". A general traffic lane only needs lane markings." Same with bus lanes. "You implied a cleaning contract was all that is needed. I merely pointed out that is a very small part of the maintenance required." A. I never did. B. You have absolutely no way of knowing how much of the maintenance cost that is. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 23 21:36:12 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 23 12:11:06 2016. You mean 0.4 additional miles for Number 1. But number 2 is 0.7 miles. Both are too much extra when you consider the additional time and traffic. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 23 21:36:38 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 23 21:15:53 2016. That assumes there are 50 cars making a right turn at the same time. Unlikely. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 23 21:40:50 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 23 21:13:05 2016. "It's more than 2 to 3 minutes extra. More like at least five."Then your average speed on the detour is less than 10 miles per hour. "Are you going to tell me that the speed on 88 Street which is a narrow two-way is the same as on the Woodhaven overpass to Union Turnpike without any lights?" No, but the distance is so short that such does not matter. "During rush hours when traffic over that overpass is slow, then it might be only another three minutes. Not at other times when it takes one minute to get over the overpass." huh? "It would take two minutes or more just get to Metropolitan and Cooper depending on the traffic on Cooper which would increase. Then from there to Union Turnpike would take another three or four minutes, then another minute to get back to Woodhaven. That's about 7 minutes as compared to one." If congestion on the detour were heavy enough to cause 7 minute trip times, the likelihood of travel times on Woodhaven being close to one minute approaches nil. "And do you have any idea how slow traffic on 37th Avenue is on weekends? It takes five minutes just to get in and out of the parking lot. And let's see big trucks trying to make that right turn into 73rd Avenue and go around Trotting Course Lane to Metropolitan and back to Woodhaven. All it takes is one truck to delay every vehicle behind it. Your 73rd Avenue reroute could take ten extra minutes." LOL. Only if traffic is already snarled to the degree that Woodhaven would also take an absurd amount of time. And if it were so... Congratulations! you have completely justified the bus lanes. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 23 21:52:49 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 23 21:36:12 2016. No. Both are .4 miles longer. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 23 21:55:55 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 23 21:36:12 2016. Added time is insignificant. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Feb 24 08:16:15 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 23 21:32:08 2016. own3d so good |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Feb 24 08:16:52 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 23 21:36:12 2016. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You're unbelievable. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 08:35:49 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 23 21:32:08 2016. Last line should read "I don't make assertions using false figures when I do not have actual counts. " |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 10:12:43 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 23 21:32:08 2016. 1.2 and 1.6 are widely recognized standards. That means that you believe a typical automobile carries 1.1 or fewer people. That is not true and exists only in your mind.You only spoke of vehicles. You never accounted for more than one person per vehicle. Yes I certainly understand how buses work. You are the one who does not. DOT stated at the meetings and it may even be in writing that all traffic will move faster after SBS is implemented. It is no assumption. They stated specifically that removing a lane will reduce bottlenecks when the opposite is true since more vehicles will now be forced into the remaining lanes. DOT did not look at traffic shifted to parallel roadways except in Staten Island and they dismissed the slower travel times as unrelated to the bus lanes. Speed definitely did not improve. It worsened! Would you say the turnover between Elliott and 157 Avenue is only 20 percent when it probably is closer to 80%? Sixty thousand vehicles passing Elliot and 60,000 vehicles passing 157th Avenue with 80 percent being the same vehicles, equals 72,000 vehicles. Assuming a conservative 1.2 people per vehicle brings the total non-bus passengers using Woodhaven/Cross Bay Blvds to 75,000 people, still over twice the number of bus passengers. During off-peak hours when exclusive bus lanes are also proposed, it would be like three or four times using those ridiculously low estimates. A more realistic 40 percent turnover, but still improbable (because it us at least 60 percent) and 1.6 passengers per car raises the daily total from 75,000 people in vehicles other than buses to 134,000. That is over five times the number of bus passengers and the MTA is reducing four general traffic lanes to two and will add speed bumps on the service roads to further slow traffic. There isn't a chance in hell that traffic will move faster. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 10:24:02 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 23 21:35:47 2016. I get a ten minute time savings because fifteen minutes is the maximum reduction in running time savings from one end of a route to the other which is usually at least 10 miles. The average passenger trip is 2.3 miles so the average passenger savings is one fifth that amount. A fifth of 15 minutes is three minutes.THOSE ARE NOT UNSUBSTANTIATED ASSUMPTIONS. No a bus lane needs to make sure none of the signs fell off or became faded. They will need periodic replacement as does the rust color pavement. NONE OF THAT IS NEEDED TO MAINTAIN ORDINARY LANES. I don't no how much the maintenance costs but that is not the question. I DO KNOW THAT MAINTENANCE WILL BE NEEDED AND THAT THE MANUFACTURERS' WARRANTY IS ONLY FOR THREE YEARS. After that period of time there is no federal money or city money to pay for the maintenance WHICH WILL BE SUBSTANTIAL when you have hundreds or even thousands of fare machines when you have 20 SBS routes which is the plan. That doesn't even consider the SUBSTANTIAL labor and material costs just to replace the paper and ink. ALL THAT MEANS IS HIGHER OPERATING COSTS and HIGHER FARES to pay for it since SBS ROUTES ARE GENERALLY RAISING LESS REVENUE each year because ridership on them is FALLING even though they may have increased FIVE YEARS AGO for the first year of operation. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 10:29:12 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 23 21:36:38 2016. Go stand on Metropolitan Avenue and Woodhaven on a Saturday afternoon and you will see what I saw and videotaped. Just last Saturday the line to make a left southbound onto Metropolitan extended past Cooper from Metropolitan. That is 50 cars. Only about 20 can get through in the 15 second turning phase. All those cars would have to make a right onto Cooper instead under your proposal if none took the long detour on the service road down to the Montaulk Line and back. A similar number of cars wait to to make the left turn northbound. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 10:32:14 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 10:12:43 2016. "1.2 and 1.6 are widely recognized standards. That means that you believe a typical automobile carries 1.1 or fewer people. That is not true and exists only in your mind."I never said such. 1.2 and 1.6 are not relevant. "You only spoke of vehicles. You never accounted for more than one person per vehicle." False "Yes I certainly understand how buses work. You are the one who does not." Your statement makes it clear that you do not understand how buses work if you think that a rider traveling a short distance would be unaffected by the presence of bus lanes. "DOT stated at the meetings and it may even be in writing that all traffic will move faster after SBS is implemented. It is no assumption. They stated specifically that removing a lane will reduce bottlenecks when the opposite is true since more vehicles will now be forced into the remaining lanes." Yes. DOT is almost certainly correct. You are not, since you don't understand what actually causes traffic. "DOT did not look at traffic shifted to parallel roadways except in Staten Island and they dismissed the slower travel times as unrelated to the bus lanes. Speed definitely did not improve. It worsened!" Unsubstantiated assertion, almost certainly incorrect. "Would you say the turnover between Elliott and 157 Avenue is only 20 percent when it probably is closer to 80%? Sixty thousand vehicles passing Elliot and 60,000 vehicles passing 157th Avenue with 80 percent being the same vehicles, equals 72,000 vehicles." No. I do not make assertions without basis. "Assuming a conservative 1.2 people per vehicle brings the total non-bus passengers using Woodhaven/Cross Bay Blvds to 75,000 people, still over twice the number of bus passengers. During off-peak hours when exclusive bus lanes are also proposed, it would be like three or four times using those ridiculously low estimates. " Completely made up. "A more realistic 40 percent turnover, but still improbable (because it us at least 60 percent) and 1.6 passengers per car raises the daily total from 75,000 people in vehicles other than buses to 134,000." Again, baseless numbers with the baseless assertion that they are more likely to be true than the prior set of baseless assertions. "That is over five times the number of bus passengers and the MTA is reducing four general traffic lanes to two and will add speed bumps on the service roads to further slow traffic. There isn't a chance in hell that traffic will move faster." A. It is only over 5 times the number of bus passengers if you fudge the numbers B. 4 to 3, not 4 to 2. C. Of course not. Slowing the speed is a stated goal. That said, when there is traffic, it will likely not be as bad. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 24 10:38:09 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 10:24:02 2016. "I get a ten minute time savings because fifteen minutes is the maximum reduction in running time savings from one end of a route to the other which is usually at least 10 miles. The average passenger trip is 2.3 miles so the average passenger savings is one fifth that amount. A fifth of 15 minutes is three minutes.THOSE ARE NOT UNSUBSTANTIATED ASSUMPTIONS. The average passenger trip on woodhaven is 2.3 miles? UNSUBSTANTIATED. "No a bus lane needs to make sure none of the signs fell off or became faded. They will need periodic replacement as does the rust color pavement. NONE OF THAT IS NEEDED TO MAINTAIN ORDINARY LANES." Actually, signage does need to be maintained on every street. If the rust colored paint wears off, again, not a big deal. Plenty of bus lanes exist without them. "I don't no how much the maintenance costs but that is not the question. I DO KNOW THAT MAINTENANCE WILL BE NEEDED AND THAT THE MANUFACTURERS' WARRANTY IS ONLY FOR THREE YEARS." Yes, but you claim that such is large, which is completely unsubstantiated. "After that period of time there is no federal money or city money to pay for the maintenance WHICH WILL BE SUBSTANTIAL when you have hundreds or even thousands of fare machines when you have 20 SBS routes which is the plan." Unsubstantiated. "That doesn't even consider the SUBSTANTIAL labor and material costs just to replace the paper and ink. ALL THAT MEANS IS HIGHER OPERATING COSTS and HIGHER FARES to pay for it since SBS ROUTES ARE GENERALLY RAISING LESS REVENUE each year because ridership on them is FALLING even though they may have increased FIVE YEARS AGO for the first year of operation." What about the reduced maintenance costs they bring to the buses themselves? What about the fine revenue they bring? How substantial is the labor? What about the reduced fuel costs they bring? What about the reduced labor costs they bring from the reduced run times? ETC. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 10:39:04 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 23 21:40:50 2016. Very possible that your average speed on the detour would be less than ten mph.The distance traveled on 88 Street is not short at all. It is 11 intersections. In Manhattan, that could take 30 minutes. The travel time up the overpass without any traffic is only about 30 seconds. Add 30 seconds to wait for the light to change and you have one minute. I am saying when there is congestion on the overpass and it takes five minutes to get over it, then if the detour on 88 Street takes 8 minutes, that would be a 3 minute difference. I have not justified bus lanes at all. I have presented a very logical case against them. You claimed that the 73rd Avenue detour is feasible. When I pointed out it would take an extraordinary amount of time, you conclude I justified the bus lanes. Totall nonsense. What you stated dies not follow. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 24 10:40:10 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 23 21:52:49 2016. Measure it again. The Continental detour is .7 miles not .4 or 1.4 as you stated. |
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