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| (310566) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 03:18:12 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 01:14:00 2016. Yes.But that does not mean that the MTA was firmly against it, or even for that matter, even slightly against it. Hell, they could have even STRONGLY supported it! They just had better things to spend their limited funding on. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 03:21:33 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 00:58:39 2016. Yes. That happens at anti transit lynchmobs you attend.How many hands would go up for allowing interracial marriage at a klan meeting? |
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| (310569) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Feb 16 06:08:24 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 03:21:33 2016. :) |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Feb 16 06:16:25 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 03:12:33 2016. Modern data tells you how the line is doing today. IT SAYS NOTHING AT ALL ABOUT WHAT THE EFFECTS OF THE SBS CHANGES ARE.Exactly. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Feb 16 06:16:46 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 01:08:08 2016. Only SBS supporters like yourself discount newer data in favor of older data that show what you want it to show.Wrong!!!!! |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Feb 16 06:17:25 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 03:18:12 2016. 100% correct. BrooklynBus is 100% wrong. |
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| (310573) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Feb 16 06:17:57 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 01:18:35 2016. Talking to yourself again? |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Feb 16 06:18:38 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 03:02:44 2016. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He's clueless!!!!! |
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| (310575) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Feb 16 06:20:47 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 01:26:12 2016. HaHa!!! You are both wrong.Doubt it. He is usually right and you are usually wrong. You just agree with anything he says.Correct. Because historically speaking, whenever there is disagreement, anything he is says is correct and anything you say is incorrect. I like to side with the winning team. |
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| (310576) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Feb 16 06:21:05 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 03:15:20 2016. own3d |
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| (310578) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 10:35:09 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 03:15:20 2016. No, it disputes your claim. You stated all buses would stop at the curb. When the entire proposal is implemented, wherever there are service roads except for north of Park Lane South, all SBS, express bus stops (if any) and local bus stops will be in the main road, with the exception of local stops at 97th and 93rd Avenue due to where the slip lanes will be located so the locals can stop at Atlantic Avenue. The SBS bus stop will be located at 93rd Avenue. So the locals will not delay SBS and express buses at 93 Avenue, but SBS buses may still delay express buses which will have to wait for those buses to complete the loading process if traffic is too heavy for buses to switch to the general traffic lanes. |
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| (310579) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 10:38:05 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 03:02:44 2016. I meant 91st not 93rd, but my point is still the same. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 10:38:46 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 10:35:09 2016. I meant 91st not 93rd. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 10:40:15 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 03:09:49 2016. And the current one shows SBS and express buses will use the overpass with exclusive lanes on them. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 10:41:27 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 03:12:33 2016. And what is happening today is what is relevent, not what happened the first year on routes when the results were favorable the first year. |
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| (310585) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 10:45:31 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 10:41:27 2016. It is relevant to how the service is performing today AS A WHOLE.It is NOT relevant to the question of whether or not the SBS changes are successful. |
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| (310586) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 10:48:25 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 03:18:12 2016. It doesn't matter how strongly they may have supported it if they had no intention of funding it. They have strongly supported the Second Avenue subway since they were created and the lower half is no closer to being funded than it was in 1968. |
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| (310587) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 10:49:57 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 10:40:15 2016. No it does not.Atlantic is listed as an Express stop. That means that they cannot be in that lane. (I am sure the nonstop QM16 and QM17 will be. Express here obviously is referring to the QM15 and BM5) |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 10:50:32 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 10:48:25 2016. Yes. That is my point. |
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| (310590) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 10:51:40 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 03:21:33 2016. It was certainly no anti-transit lynchmob. It was an expression of opposition to a poorly thought out idea. In my rebuttal to Trottenberg, I successfully disputed every one of her claims.http://www.subchat.com/buschat/read.asp?Id=310384 |
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| (310591) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 10:55:45 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 10:45:31 2016. If SBS routes are performing worse than the average of other local routes in the borough (which is the case for every borough except for the Bronx) that is reason enough to not further expand these routes which cost up to $3 million more each year to operate. Woodhaven may even be higher. Fewer riders at a higher cost per rider does not indicate success. |
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| (310592) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 11:00:04 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 10:49:57 2016. Where is Atlantic Avenue listed as an express stop? Show me that link. If you are correct, it only proves that DOT does not even know what they are proposing. Why would SBS use the overpass while expresses would not? That makes no sense at all. It would make more sense for the express buses to use the overpass and SBS buses to stop at Atlantic Avenue. |
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| (310594) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 11:05:58 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 10:35:09 2016. All buses MAKING THE STOP at 97th avenue, will be stopping at the curb. 97th avenue is north of the slip lanes the local and express buses will be taking to avoid the Atlantic overpass.Local buses at 97th will be in the outermost lanes. Express buses(Certainly QM15, Not sure what the BM5 will be doing) will be in the outer traffic lanes SBS buses will be in the bus lanes. 91st avenue is SBS and local only. Express buses will be passing the top altogether. 91 is in fact two separate stops. The SBS stop will be on the north side of 91st. The local stop will be on the south side, in the service lane. The local and express buses will reenter the bus lane at the 90th slip lanes. The local and stopping express buses will not be in the bus lane from 90th to half way between 97th and 101st. |
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| (310596) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 11:06:59 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 10:38:05 2016. Seen. Changes little considering the fact that the first access point North of the Atlantic overpass is at 90th. |
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| (310597) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 11:08:27 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 11:00:04 2016. Look for it.It is not hard to find. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 11:09:22 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 10:55:45 2016. No it is not.It has NOTHING TO DO with SBS. Which is what everyone but you seems to understand. And where do you get that they cost 3 Million more to operate? |
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| (310599) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 11:11:41 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 10:51:40 2016. You didn't successfully dispute any of her claims. You repeated a number of your absurd and irrelevant claims.Just because you yell wrong after everything she says, doesn't make her wrong. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by fdtutf on Tue Feb 16 11:49:05 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 00:58:39 2016. When DOT first presented their proposal, it was like 90 percent in favor, but as more questions are asked and adequate responses are not being received, the more people are wising up. That's why it is not faux news.That's why is it exactly like Faux News. Their MO is to use insinuation and innuendo to imply that something is bad in order to change people's opinions, without ever being able to back up any of their insinuation and innuendo with actual facts. This is exactly what you do. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 13:16:58 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 11:00:04 2016. I suspect the reason for the express buses making Atlantic while the SBS buses are planned to skip it is because TODAY, the QM15 makes Atlantic.Atlantic on the Q52/Q53 appears to be swapped for the added stops at 91 and 101, which in addition to providing a parallel east/west transfer, does not have the infrastructural problem of the overpass to deal with. |
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| (310616) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 21:42:19 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 13:16:58 2016. Doesn't follow. The Q52 and 53 also stop at Atlantic today. By the same token they also could continue to stop at Atlantic. 91st is the swap for Atlantic. Pitkin and 101 are being added. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 21:45:34 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 11:09:22 2016. It was in the Staff Summary and in a report about the B44 before it was implemented.What has nothing to do with SBS, the fact that ridership fell more on SBS routes than on the borough averages? Then why are SBS routes performing worse then they are supposed to be performing better? |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 21:56:26 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 11:11:41 2016. So tell me what other alternatives to SBS she studied?Tell me how she can state she is listening when the borough commissioner tells an entire community, they will be getting SBS whether they want it or not. Tell me how a member of the Riders Alliance can be considered "a community leader" and anyone opposing SBS is not a community leader? Tell me how she considers it fair to talk about benefits to 30,000 bus riders while ignoring the needs of 10,000 motorists who are being severely harmed? Tell me why she still continues to refuse to provide data regarding how many motorists are using the roadway. Tell me why she can't define "reasonable speed." Tell me why she won't predict how many will switch to SBS from their cars or provide justification for a 35 percent time savings. Yes I have successfully disputed all her claims and none of what I said is irrelevant or absurd. They are legitimate questions and requests for data. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 22:01:48 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by fdtutf on Tue Feb 16 11:49:05 2016. You have it backwards. The Faux News is all coming from DOT. SBS works in other cities so it has to work here. Bus riders will save 35% in travel time with no further explanation how it will be achieved while ignoring the increase in travel time to 80% of the roadways users.According to DOT, there is nothing wrong with traveling a mile out of your way just to make left turn. "Failure is not a possibility, because every DOT project has been successful." That is nothing but sheer arrogance. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 22:30:19 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 21:42:19 2016. Whether it follows or not doesn't matter. The plan is:The Q52/53 will not be stopping at Atlantic, unlike today. The QM15 Will be stopping at Atlantic, like today. The QM15 is NOT stopping at 91st, although if it did, it would be stopping at the local stop, which is not in the bus lane. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 22:32:15 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 21:45:34 2016. "What has nothing to do with SBS, the fact that ridership fell more on SBS routes than on the borough averages? "Yes. Much like when they rise today, it has nothing to do with SBS either. "Then why are SBS routes performing worse then they are supposed to be performing better?" In general, they really aren't performing worse, when you compare them to similar non-SBS routes. |
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| (310626) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 22:43:40 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 21:56:26 2016. "So tell me what other alternatives to SBS she studied? "There were three published alternatives that I read. I am sure there are many more that didn't make it to the public. "Tell me how she can state she is listening when the borough commissioner tells an entire community, they will be getting SBS whether they want it or not." Because she realizes he is dealing with anti transit advocates. SBS as a whole has been incredibly popular. "Tell me how a member of the Riders Alliance can be considered "a community leader" and anyone opposing SBS is not a community leader?" Because it is true. "Tell me how she considers it fair to talk about benefits to 30,000 bus riders while ignoring the needs of 10,000 motorists who are being severely harmed? "Tell me why she still continues to refuse to provide data regarding how many motorists are using the roadway." They don't refuse to do such. They have posted average daily counts from various areas. "Tell me why she can't define "reasonable speed."" Because it is not a definable term. Depends on location. "Tell me why she won't predict how many will switch to SBS from their cars " Because it would be dishonest to claim a known when the future is an unknown. "or provide justification for a 35 percent time savings." They have. "Yes I have successfully disputed all her claims and none of what I said is irrelevant or absurd. They are legitimate questions and requests for data. " As I have shown, you have done neither. Your questions are illegitimate, and your requests are absurd, as most of the data IS out there. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 23:05:59 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 22:01:48 2016. "You have it backwards. The Faux News is all coming from DOT."No. "SBS works in other cities so it has to work here." Generally yes. Universal principles are universal. "Bus riders will save 35% in travel time with no further explanation how it will be achieved while ignoring the increase in travel time to 80% of the roadways users." Plenty of explanation for travel time improvements. 80% of people on Woodhaven are clearly not automobile users. "According to DOT, there is nothing wrong with traveling a mile out of your way just to make left turn." Nobody has to travel a mile out of their way because of the left turn bans. Seriously. If you keep repeating this absurd claim, supply an address pair for which somebody would have to drive a mile out of their way because of new left turn bans. ""Failure is not a possibility, because every DOT project has been successful." That is nothing but sheer arrogance. " With a simple project like this, it is true that failure is not a possibility. Every possible outcome has upsides. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 23:21:23 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 16 21:56:26 2016. Oops.Missed a point "Tell me how she considers it fair to talk about benefits to 30,000 bus riders while ignoring the needs of 10,000 motorists who are being severely harmed?" A. Assuming your numbers are correct, you just made my point for me! Unfortunately they aren't, but jeez. B. The needs of drivers are not being ignored. The roads won't be designed for solely their benefit anymore. C. Drivers aren't being severely harmed. I fully expect that the DOT is correct in stating that Automobile congestion will be reduced by this project. Also, my prior post should say "data ARE out there" Not IS. Apologies. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 17 15:44:52 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 23:21:23 2016. That was an obvious typo. I meant to write 100,000 motorists. Over three times the numbers using buses, also traveling longer distances in the car than bus riders are traveling in the buses, many of whom are riding the bus not for a short distance of a mile or two to access the subway.Congestion will not be reduced since SBS (or a ten minute time savings) is not a big enough savings for someone one to switch modes. And yes having to drive an extra mile to make a left turn or even an extra ten minutes in addition to other delays is significant as is cutting your average speed in half. If congestion will be reduced as you suggest, why have the bus lanes caused somany to switch to Alderton northbound that residents have proposed making the road a one-way southbound? They are seeking alternatives because traffic has already become intolerable during the rush hours and you want to extend these delays to all day long and to weekends when bus riders will not even benefit from those lanes. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 17 16:00:16 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 17 15:44:52 2016. "That was an obvious typo."I know. That is why I treated it as such. "I meant to write 100,000 motorists." Where do you get this number? Seems possible but unlikely. "Over three times the numbers using buses," Again, your number is unsupported. That said, bus ridership is very likely to rise after the project is completed. "also traveling longer distances in the car than bus riders are traveling in the buses," Wholly unsupported. Nor particularly relevant "many of whom are riding the bus not for a short distance of a mile or two to access the subway." The car riders are riding the bus for NOT for a short distance of a mile or two??? huh? "Congestion will not be reduced since SBS (or a ten minute time savings) is not a big enough savings for someone one to switch modes." People don't have to switch modes for congestion to be reduced. That said, some people surely WILL switch. "And yes having to drive an extra mile to make a left turn or even an extra ten minutes in addition to other delays is significant" Perhaps it would be. But nobody will have to drive an extra mile. Stop repeating a lie. "as is cutting your average speed in half." Which would only be the case if you are speeding ridiculously today. "If congestion will be reduced as you suggest, why have the bus lanes caused somany to switch to Alderton northbound that residents have proposed making the road a one-way southbound? " Where is your numerical backing for this? "They are seeking alternatives because traffic has already become intolerable during the rush hours and you want to extend these delays to all day long and to weekends when bus riders will not even benefit from those lanes." Traffic was intolerable before. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 17 16:00:29 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 17 15:44:52 2016. "That was an obvious typo."I know. That is why I treated it as such. "I meant to write 100,000 motorists." Where do you get this number? Seems possible but unlikely. "Over three times the numbers using buses," Again, your number is unsupported. That said, bus ridership is very likely to rise after the project is completed. "also traveling longer distances in the car than bus riders are traveling in the buses," Wholly unsupported. Nor particularly relevant "many of whom are riding the bus not for a short distance of a mile or two to access the subway." The car riders are riding the bus for NOT for a short distance of a mile or two??? huh? "Congestion will not be reduced since SBS (or a ten minute time savings) is not a big enough savings for someone one to switch modes." People don't have to switch modes for congestion to be reduced. That said, some people surely WILL switch. "And yes having to drive an extra mile to make a left turn or even an extra ten minutes in addition to other delays is significant" Perhaps it would be. But nobody will have to drive an extra mile. Stop repeating a lie. "as is cutting your average speed in half." Which would only be the case if you are speeding ridiculously today. "If congestion will be reduced as you suggest, why have the bus lanes caused somany to switch to Alderton northbound that residents have proposed making the road a one-way southbound? " Where is your numerical backing for this? "They are seeking alternatives because traffic has already become intolerable during the rush hours and you want to extend these delays to all day long and to weekends when bus riders will not even benefit from those lanes." Traffic was intolerable before. |
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| (310680) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 17 18:43:08 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Wed Feb 17 16:00:29 2016. DOT gave daily numbers of about 30,000 vehicles passing selected intersections. If be assumes that the percentage of vehicles passing 157th Avenue and also Eliot Avenue as small, that is a total of 100,000 vehicles. If we assume only 1.2 people per car (sone use 1.6 as the average) that is already at least 120,000 people in cars and trucks. Subtract the 5,000 or so daily bus riders in casino, charter and school buses, and you reduce the numbers of bus riders to 20,000. That leaves 6 times as many in cars, trucks and motorcycles as in MTA buses.Those in cars are likely to spend more time on Woodhaven than those in buses since the average city local bus trip is only 2.3 miles. On Woodhaven I would estimate the average to be slightly longer like 2.7 miles due to the heavy use of the Queens Blvd line. You are right. People don't have to switch modes for congestion to be reduced. They just won't visit grandma as often or they may decide this is the straw that break the camel's back and finally move to Jersey or the Island or perhaps even Florida which they had been thinking about anyway. All of that hurts the economy and is a step in the wrong direction for our city. No, even if you are not speeding, your top speed of 30 mph will now be 15 mph. You can check NY 1 for the recent Alderton article. When I used Woodhaven daily ten years ago during rush hours, traffic was only bad or intolerable about twice a week. I am sure it is worse today after the nbsense changes made as a result of the Congested Corridors Study which eliminated many bypass routes on days when traffic was intolerable. So now it may be bad, three or four days a week. With these changes elminating left turns, you will just be stopped in traffic and trapped if you are not near an exit lane and it will be bad or intolerable most of the time. Af far as no one traveling a mile out of their way to make a left turn, try going to Stop and Shop from Woodhaven north of Metropolitan. What used to be a simple left turn from Woodhaven south onto Union Turnpike will now require you to use the service road to the Montauk line, make a u-turn, double back to Metropolitan, name a right turn to 71 Avenue, go south to Union Turnpike and west to Stop and Shop. That is a mile extra and is only one example. And with all the cars that will be using that service road due to no left turns to Metropolitan and Union Turnpike now all on the service road, and the lengthy red signal at 73rd Avenue, it will also be a long and slow trip. |
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| (310681) | |
Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 17 19:19:59 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Tue Feb 16 22:32:15 2016. So if the B44 SBS. ridership improves during the second year of operation, I can safely say it has nothing to do with SBS? What if enforcement efforts improved for keeping the bus lanes clear and there was more Eagle Team enforcement during the second year and ridership rose, I can safely say those increases have nothing to do with SBS. Thanks I will remember that because what matters regarding SBS is what is happening during the first year only.The B44 is performing worse. Ridership declined in 2014 by 4.4%. The B46 declined by 2.5% and the B43 declined by only 1.3%. Only the B44 had a similar decline by 4.5%. The B41 faces stiff competition from van services which the B44 does not, which accounts for the B41's poor showing. So to say SBS routes performed no worse than parallel routes which you are saying, isn't even true. Also using the borough average makes much more sense than handpicking a few routes. Even if they performed similar to other routes doesn't say much about success. THEY SHOULD FAR OUTPERFORM NON SBS ROUTES, since they cost millions more annually to operate, not to mention the ongoing costs. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 17 19:24:47 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 17 18:43:08 2016. "DOT gave daily numbers of about 30,000 vehicles passing selected intersections. If be assumes that the percentage of vehicles passing 157th Avenue and also Eliot Avenue as small, that is a total of 100,000 vehicles."Why would we assume that the amount is small? If we assume it is large, that is 30,000 cars. "If we assume only 1.2 people per car (sone use 1.6 as the average) that is already at least 120,000 people in cars and trucks." Only if we assume that all the cars are traveling a short distance. So we are basing this count on an almost certainly false premise. " Subtract the 5,000 or so daily bus riders in casino, charter and school buses, and you reduce the numbers of bus riders to 20,000." Why should we subtract 5000 daily bus riders in casino/charter/school buses? A. They aren't counted in the 30,000 as it is. B. They would be helped by the bus lanes too. C. 30,000 - 5,000 is 25,000 Not 20,000 So lets add these bus riders to the total, not subtract! "That leaves 6 times as many in cars, trucks and motorcycles as in MTA buses." Yes. But only if you artificially inflate car riders by a great deal and artificially deflate bus riders by a great deal. If you make the just as dubious assumption that each car stays the whole length, and add the 5000 people in charter buses to the bus count, WOW, BUS RIDERSHIP IS ROUGHLY THE SAME AS CAR RIDERSHIP!!! WOW!!! "Those in cars are likely to spend more time on Woodhaven than those in buses since the average city local bus trip is only 2.3 miles. On Woodhaven I would estimate the average to be slightly longer like 2.7 miles due to the heavy use of the Queens Blvd line." One could think that. Only if they completely ignore the structure of the Woodhaven bus services. Substantial amount of Express bus riders, and the busiest route is BY FAR the limited, which has long periods between stops. Your average is laughable on its face. "You are right. People don't have to switch modes for congestion to be reduced. They just won't visit grandma as often or they may decide this is the straw that break the camel's back and finally move to Jersey or the Island or perhaps even Florida which they had been thinking about anyway. All of that hurts the economy and is a step in the wrong direction for our city." They probably won't leave anyway, but even if they did, considering the influx of new residents, they would not be missed by the economy. "No, even if you are not speeding, your top speed of 30 mph will now be 15 mph." Completely unsupported by any evidence or reality "You can check NY 1 for the recent Alderton article." Does not seem connected to Woodhaven SBS... "When I used Woodhaven daily ten years ago during rush hours, traffic was only bad or intolerable about twice a week. I am sure it is worse today after the nbsense changes made as a result of the Congested Corridors Study which eliminated many bypass routes on days when traffic was intolerable. So now it may be bad, three or four days a week." 10 years ago is not particularly relevant. "With these changes elminating left turns, you will just be stopped in traffic and trapped if you are not near an exit lane and it will be bad or intolerable most of the time." Eliminating left turns REDUCES traffic. The Woodhaven plan is intended to REDUCE traffic. These issues should happen LESS often. "Af far as no one traveling a mile out of their way to make a left turn, try going to Stop and Shop from Woodhaven north of Metropolitan. What used to be a simple left turn from Woodhaven south onto Union Turnpike will now require you to use the service road to the Montauk line, make a u-turn, double back to Metropolitan, name a right turn to 71 Avenue, go south to Union Turnpike and west to Stop and Shop. That is a mile extra and is only one example. And with all the cars that will be using that service road due to no left turns to Metropolitan and Union Turnpike now all on the service road, and the lengthy red signal at 73rd Avenue, it will also be a long and slow trip. " Or, Left onto Trotting Course, Left onto Metropolitan, Right on Continental, Right on Union Turnpike. 0.1-0.2 MILES LONGER!!! ITS AMAZING. Yes, you COULD go a mile out of your way. You could also go 22 miles out of your way if you went through Manhattan! BUT, the amazing thing is, you don't have to. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 17 19:30:25 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 17 19:19:59 2016. "So if the B44 SBS. ridership improves during the second year of operation, I can safely say it has nothing to do with SBS? "You certainly could not claim that it was due to SBS, no. "What if enforcement efforts improved for keeping the bus lanes clear and there was more Eagle Team enforcement during the second year and ridership rose, I can safely say those increases have nothing to do with SBS. Thanks I will remember that because what matters regarding SBS is what is happening during the first year only." Yeah. Those increases would be because there was more eagle team enforcement and clearer bus lanes, not because the line was SBS. This is based on simple algebra. ISOLATE THE VARIABLE. "The B44 is performing worse. Ridership declined in 2014 by 4.4%. The B46 declined by 2.5% and the B43 declined by only 1.3%. Only the B44 had a similar decline by 4.5%. The B41 faces stiff competition from van services which the B44 does not, which accounts for the B41's poor showing. So to say SBS routes performed no worse than parallel routes which you are saying, isn't even true. Also using the borough average makes much more sense than handpicking a few routes. Even if they performed similar to other routes doesn't say much about success. THEY SHOULD FAR OUTPERFORM NON SBS ROUTES, since they cost millions more annually to operate, not to mention the ongoing costs." So if you ignore the most similar routes which are performing worse... LOL. Why should they far outperform the other routes? |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by fdtutf on Wed Feb 17 23:09:33 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Wed Feb 17 19:24:47 2016. Only if we assume that all the cars are traveling a short distance. So we are basing this count on an almost certainly false premise.Especially since Allan assumes exactly the opposite: "Those in cars are likely to spend more time on Woodhaven than those in buses..." Talk about trying to have your cake and eat it, too. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Feb 17 23:26:50 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Wed Feb 17 19:24:47 2016. Owned. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Feb 17 23:48:57 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by fdtutf on Wed Feb 17 23:09:33 2016. Certainly!The self contradiction is mind boggling! |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 22 13:25:17 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Wed Feb 17 19:30:25 2016. SBS supposed to be an improvement and since it costs far more to operate, it only makes sense that for it to be successful, it should outperform other routes. I guess common sense is not one of your strong points.If enforcement improves at any time even if it is not during the first year, of course it has to do with SBS. What else does it have to do with? If there is no enforcement of fare paying or the bus lanes and the system doesn't work at all, are you saying that enforcement if it exists or doesn't is unrelated to SBS? That would be utter ridiculous. I heard that the MTA will be producing B44 SBS results next month. I guess I should just ignore anything they say about what happened during the second year of operation according to you, because what happened during the second year has nothing to do with SBS. |
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Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 22 14:10:49 2016, in response to Re: Summary and Video of November 2015 SBS meeting in Woodhaven, posted by R30A on Wed Feb 17 19:24:47 2016. Why would we assume that amount is small?Because it makes sense. To say a high percentage of those passing 157th Avenue and also Elliot Avenue would assume that cumulatively very few cars are turning on and off the roadway at all the intersections between those two points? That would be utterly ridiculous. No assuming 120,000 people in cars does not assume everyone is traveling a short distance. You just made that up. Even if most everyone were traveling long distances, that would be the number. I am certainly not deflating the number of bus passengers. I am using DOTs numbers. I am also not inflating the number of cars. First you claim I said that cars are all riding short distances which I never said. Now you say I am assuming cars stay on the road the entire length. I never said that either. You are just making things up because you can't accept the facts and logic I presented. The "substantial" amount of express bus riders is not "substantial" it is only about 7 percent of total Woodhaven ridership if my math is correct. Even if the average Lmited rider travels for five miles on the limited, adding the locals brings the average down somewhat. What would you say the average ride on Woodhaven /Cross Bay is and don't forget it is inflated due to the lengthy Cross Bay and Addabbo bridges,where there are no stops so limited or local doesn't make a difference there. When you consider the middle class is moving out and lower income people are moving in, it certainly does make a difference on the economy. When you consider the increased congestion, the amount of time you accelerate to top speed, stop and slow down for traffic lights, a top speed of 15 is not unrealistic for rush hours. At other times it will be your average speed. Drivers were using Alderton before when Woodhaven was congested. Now they are using it more because congestion has increased. That's why residents are now callng for a one-way once again. It is certainly related to the exclusive bus lanes. SBS is not yet in effect, so of course it is not related to that. Ten years ago is very relevent unless you assume congestion today is less than what it was then. It is much more. Eliminating left turns certainly does not reduce traffic. IT INCREASES IT. You have to travel a longer distance to make three rights if it is at all possible. In many cases it isn't, You also have to consider traffic on surrounding streets, not only the traffic on Woodhaven. THAT IS WHAT IS MEANT BY A CORRIDOR. Okay. I will go to Stop and Shop as you proposed. So I first make a left onto Trotting Course Lane. Is that correct? Oops I just got hit head on because Trotting Course is a one way northbound. What do I do now? DOT changed their proposal to make Trotting Course a two-way, but they no longer show that in their revised proposal. The the routing I specified is correct and is the shortest route to Stop and Shop. |
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