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(531930)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 03:32:21 2007, in response to MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 02:17:52 2007.

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Both NYPD and NYCT personnel have received instructions as to what constitutes "suspicious activities" and they have a problem. Since they've been specifically instructed to report, and follow up on these "suspicious activities" they can get in SERIOUS trouble for not doing so, even if the memos and training they've received runs counter to 1059(c).

There's a reality known as "dereliction of duty" for failure to follow written and oral instructions from their supervisors. And to make matters worse for the "foot soldiers" supervision is out there doing what is known as "efficiency tests" to ensure that they follow the letter of these bulletins. Failure to do so gets THEM in big trouble even if the orders they've received are incorrect. Some may be in fear of actual terrorism, however most are FAR more fearful of their supervisors and getting tripped up in an "efficiency test."


Oh well. That's Cybil Cervix for you. :(

So, if the Empty Yay is ordering its employees to report photographers as "suspicious" and the cops seem to be doing the same thing, I guess maybe the NYCLU has to intervene?

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(531931)

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Re: Respect the T/O's request not to film her

Posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 03:36:37 2007, in response to Re: Respect the T/O's request not to film her, posted by ntrainride on Tue Dec 11 22:18:24 2007.

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Oh, come on. That's a bit paranoid. You remind me of some guy I rode the bus with when I was in high school, who maintained that everyone in New York City carried guns and would use them on a moment's notice except for in his personal neighborhood.

Actually, I have been attacked while out railfanning, but not for taking pics. It was for "looking at" my attacker. He said not to take pics of him. I agreed not to. But that did absolutely no good, since apparently "looking at" him was enough to set him off. I don't think he was caught; the cops must have been too busy annoying railfans. Of course, this was in a station, not on a train.

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(531935)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 03:52:28 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 03:32:21 2007.

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OR ... perhaps some "education" might be applied. As I've said, my bet is that VERY few in the MTA actually understand buffs. And quite a few over the last several decades have honked off adminiswigs to the point where there's a personal vendetta that's been passed down to the hourlies.

When *I* worked there in the early 1970's, had a number of coworkers to whom I explained that I got the job because I loved the subway and wanted to do the gig ever since I was a kid. UNIVERSALLY, I was told to keep that on the "down and low" ... "buffs" are *not* appreciated here, and if anyone finds OUT that you're a buff, you'll be outta here like sheet through a goose. Well ... I cooked my own in an entirely different way, getting involved in TWU politics. I kept the "buffery" quiet as I'd been told.

Spent about 15 years of my life in various civil service positions, so I know the score. If a memo or bulletin comes out, they make you SIGN it that you understand and will comply. Then the beakies come out, looking to trip you up so the agency's "discipline" score meets the numbers expected. And if they get YOU, they shoot, they score. So no matter HOW meat-headed the memo is, and how much you KNOW better, you STILL comply or it's YOUR meat for "dereliction of duty." :(

There are WAYS to demonstrate that you're NOT what's in the bulletin. They've been trained in "sneaky" or "don't smell right." Simple matter of being up front, courteous, and being able to explain what you're doing and why. And yes, if it matters THAT much to you, then LET them call supervision, and keep calmly requesting "escalation" of supervision until you can get someone reasonable enough to tell those who called you in, "it's OK - you did great, thanks" and let them go on their way satisfied that they did what they were SUPPOSED to do and nobody's going to demand G-2's about it at the terminal.

Yes, perhaps the wigs might need a tweaking ... but in all seriousness, my driver's license, photo and personal info is in the possession of CSX police, CP police, State and a few other entities where I've wanted to take pictures of this or that. And I have PRESS passes for others from the local sheriff. If I *see* something, I can photo it with impunity. All I need do is call ahead, give them a reference number, and I can pass the yellow tape. :)

And taking pictures of trains shouldn't be much of a big deal so long as you are courteous, calm and can indicate calmly that you are NOT a threat. And if someone decides you are because they HAVE to, be courteous to the supervision, don't be afraid to escalate it to someone who actually HAS the authority to do "Simon says" to the hourlies, and all can be well ... the more they get to know "buffs" who are harmless, the better prepared they are in the future to slice the bologna properly in the field.

But buffs ALSO need to know what gives them the willies, and make a decision as to whether it's worth it or not. Signals, interlockings, emergency exits, internals of wiring and such ARE potential terror targets. Pictures of trains shot from the platform are no big deal. RFW shots to the tracks, signals, switches and going beyond the edge of the platform DO fall under what they've been instructed IS "suspicious."

A LARGE number of very interesting photos I've been allowed to take and keep were permitted on a basis of "If you don't put this on the internet, ENJOY!" Reasonable enough for me. :)

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(531937)

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Re: Respect the T/O's request not to film her

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 04:02:50 2007, in response to Re: Respect the T/O's request not to film her, posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 03:36:37 2007.

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I trust you know the NYC rule of "you can give ONE look to size someone up as a threat and NEVER make eye contact again?" Some folks are paranoid. That's why New Yorkers know where the sidewalk cracks are but never look up towards the grand piano falling from the sky. :)

Sorry to hear of what happened, but it IS a rule ... you can make eye contact ONCE. Second time means you might be a homo. :(

Just how it is. The person involved in your sitch might have been wanted for something. Like I said, lotsa paranoids in the city - that's why I decided I was too well to attend someone else's mentals.

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(531939)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 04:11:51 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 03:52:28 2007.

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*sigh*

Unfortunately, I don't know anyone. :( I don't think a call to anyone would get me into a CSX cab. :(

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(531943)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 04:20:36 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 04:11:51 2007.

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It requires having friends with a railroad who will vouch for you. Also helps having prior railroad experience and perhaps a UTU or BLET union card. But lacking any of that, the way *I* see this problem is that there are definitely directives issued to the hourlies, rules which are vague (1059c which states, "photogrpahy is permitted") which fly in the face of directives because they're not properly spelled out.

A LAWYER would look at this more properly as an Article 78 proceeding ("agency exceeding its authority") in contravention of its OWN rules. What I see as a SOLUTION to the problem, and unlike the Paturkey administration and Kalikow Kats, PERHAPS someone might want to get together with others in this "similar standing" (A legal term) and WRITE to Sander and request that the MTA consider issuing "railfan ID" so as to satisfy the existing bulletins, have a means to certify LEGITIMATE photography and issue a photo ID to hobbyists equivalent to a press pass with prior ID on record. Strikes me as the sanest balance of EVERYONE's interests since they can declare non-citizens or those with records invalid for such a pass ... I see it as the solution myself. A PERMIT!

Only issue is to make it easily accessible (after background check) at a minimal processing fee. My OWN attitude is that Spitzer, Sander and everyone else can make this a WIN-WIN and issue these for FREE on a basis of "legitimized eyes" for security's sake.

I'll say THIS for the current MTA regime ... it might actually WORK!

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(531945)

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Re: Learning how to respect other SubChatters

Posted by SMAZ on Wed Dec 12 04:40:32 2007, in response to Re: Learning how to respect other SubChatters, posted by RonInBayside on Tue Dec 11 16:40:51 2007.

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Because those are two separate things, and are not automatically linked. Respect for an underage soldier does not mean you give the soldier anything he wants. You give him that which he can handle.

If he/she can handle the quick decision-making, judgemant calls, responsibilties and stress of a hostile area such as Iraq or afghanistan then he/she can definately handle a drink and if they can't, you deal with it like you do with somebody that is 21+. It is a travesty that we deny 18-20 year old adult veterans the right to do something that a 21 year old bum takes for granted. A valid Active Duty ID card or a special driver's license stamped with "VETERAN" should be sufficient proof that a young adult has earned the right to drink regardless of what we think of the war.

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(531946)

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Re: Learning how to respect other SubChatters

Posted by SMAZ on Wed Dec 12 04:42:42 2007, in response to Re: Learning how to respect other SubChatters, posted by Nilet on Tue Dec 11 17:24:06 2007.

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Very good!

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(531947)

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Re: Learning how to respect other SubChatters

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 04:46:13 2007, in response to Re: Learning how to respect other SubChatters, posted by SMAZ on Wed Dec 12 04:40:32 2007.

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AMEN! :(

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(531948)

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Re: Respect the T/O's request not to film her

Posted by Fred G on Wed Dec 12 04:53:41 2007, in response to Re: Respect the T/O's request not to film her, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 04:02:50 2007.

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The person involved in your sitch might have been wanted for something.

Yes, that's a valid reason for not wanting one's photo taken. Some people flat out don't like being photographed by strangers. I notice a shift of people's location on the platform when I have a camera on. They'll move behind columns, whatever it takes to get out of view. Some will give you a dirty look. OTOH, sometimes people ask to be photographed so there's the other end of the spectrum.

your pal,
Fred

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(531949)

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Re: Respect the T/O's request not to film her

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 05:08:01 2007, in response to Re: Respect the T/O's request not to film her, posted by Fred G on Wed Dec 12 04:53:41 2007.

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Sorry, boy grew up in da chitty ... got better. Moo. :)

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(531954)

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Re: Respect the T/O's request not to film her

Posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 05:13:16 2007, in response to Re: Respect the T/O's request not to film her, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 04:02:50 2007.

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I trust you know the NYC rule of "you can give ONE look to size someone up as a threat and NEVER make eye contact again?"

Meh. Wasn't born until the end of the 80s. Things have changed.

Besides, no matter what the city government says, and no matter what the directories say, I maintain that this encounter wasn't "really" in the city. It didn't look like it was in the city!

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(531955)

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Re: Respect the T/O's request not to film her

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 05:26:27 2007, in response to Re: Respect the T/O's request not to film her, posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 05:13:16 2007.

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Nah ... among psychopaths, the rule is the rule. Sorry no one 'splained it ... it's also why locals never look up from the sidewalk ... :)

Also why "Guess the psychosis of your seatmate" is STILL the most popular game in town even if Alex Trebec ain't got the balls to HOST the show. Heh.

But yeah, city got *lots* of mentals, and the old rule is "craziest bastard on the car GETS as many seats as they want in rush hour" and it still works. A lesson has been offered here, accepted or not - ONE eye contact, make it fleeting and look away FAST when you do, and don't look at their face again. Watch their FEET ... makes ya local. (grin)

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(531975)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 07:15:33 2007, in response to MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 02:17:52 2007.

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*YAWN*

WE already know that, Selkirk, and we're way beyond it. The point is that the T/O DID NOT FOLLOW THAT PROPER PROCEDURE. Way to read the thread, bro.

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(531978)

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Re: Learning how to respect other SubChatters

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 07:20:51 2007, in response to Re: Learning how to respect other SubChatters, posted by Nilet on Tue Dec 11 17:24:06 2007.

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I don't see what you think your intelligent reply to Ron's post will gain you?

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(531981)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 07:32:54 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 07:15:33 2007.

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I quote you "animal House" and HAVE a nice day!

"Dean Vernon Wormer: Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son. ..."

MY advice WORKS ... does yours?

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(531982)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 07:37:44 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 03:32:21 2007.

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So, if the Empty Yay is ordering its employees to report photographers as "suspicious" and the cops seem to be doing the same thing, I guess maybe the NYCLU has to intervene?

Nope. There's nothing wrong with reporting anyone as suspicious. If that's all the NYCT employees did, I would applaud them. But many of them can't even get that right - they COMBINE it with CONFRONTING the "suspicious" person, something THEY ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO.

And cops aren't reporting people as suspicious, they are either investigating reports they receive, investigating what they see, or enforcing non-existent rules about photography.

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(531984)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 07:41:03 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 07:32:54 2007.

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You shut your ears and repeat "neener neener" anytime you get shown to be wrong. Do it enough, and maybe you'll have another "internet mental breakdown" and leave again. That would funny. The first time certainly was.

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(531985)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 07:46:59 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 07:41:03 2007.

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Look, moron ... I offer advice as to how NOT to have your photo session ruined by five-oh. I have *NEVER* been challenged when I grab a camera and shoot things. Seems OTHER people, listening to YOU, have other realities.

You can call me names all you wish, you can attempt to ridicule me. Do you REALLY think that what YOU think *matters* to me? Or anyone ELSE with a clue? Go shoot your same old boring 3/4 shots and have a nice day. :)

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(531986)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 07:48:17 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 07:37:44 2007.

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This post i made may shead some light

Even the person from Homeland Security had a way of saying that someone was acting "suspicous"..

She also said that the GOOD ones dont they act that way.The act just like regular people(like some railfans) it's up to us "the eyes and ears" to make the call and NOT to confront the person, never but to give it up to Control(which is another matter all to itself).

Let them know what you see and leave it in their hands, be followed by thier instructions.

We are not Police down here..

If you was a Employee Terrapin what acts by a person whould you define as "suspicous"?





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(531988)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 07:50:01 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 03:05:03 2007.

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Terrorist WILL sneak about, and they most definitely don't walk up to employees and ask "is it OK if I?"

Think so??

Think again...





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(531992)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 07:53:37 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 07:46:59 2007.

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Now now Kevin you and Terrapin play nice..

;o)

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(531993)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 07:59:41 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 07:46:59 2007.

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Look, moron ... I offer advice as to how NOT to have your photo session ruined by five-oh. I have *NEVER* been challenged when I grab a camera and shoot things. Seems OTHER people, listening to YOU, have other realities.

Who has their photo session ruined by the 5-0? Seems mainly just Nilet. So do you think that maybe your general advice is irrelevant and that his troubles might be more specifically related to himself? No, you never thought of THAT!

And when was the last time you took photos on the NYC Subway? You haven't even been on the subway in years (it seems)! So how it your advice at all relevant? I really don't think it is. I also don't think you understand the issues in this thread. The issues are NYCT employees not following proper procedure. It is not about photographers doing anything wrong or needing to change anything.

You can call me names all you wish, you can attempt to ridicule me. Do you REALLY think that what YOU think *matters* to me? Or anyone ELSE with a clue? Go shoot your same old boring 3/4 shots and have a nice day. :)

Um, I didn't call you any names. YOU are the one calling names. You did it before your internet-mental-breakdown and you are still doing it now. I guess it won't be long until your next internet-mental-breakdown. And it will be funny as hell. Again. I'm rooting for you.

"Follow your dreams. You can reach your goals, you're living proof...Beefcake, BEEFCAKE!"

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(531998)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 08:04:43 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 07:48:17 2007.

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dude. I know that. We know that. That's what we've been saying! You're not supposed to confront the person!!! How will your post shed light on anything? It is SELKIRK and RON and their ilk that don't understand this. They try to justify what the T/O did when what she did was WRONG.

And yes I'm fully aware of what homeland security thinks is suspicious. And like I've said a million times (and others have said it as well), I have NO problem with a T/O making any calls to control or the police they want. I also have NO problem with the police investigating anything they want. But I do have a problem with a T/O incorrectly confronting someone about photography. I do have a problem with a T/O incorrectly stating that photography is not allowed. And I do have a problem with the police incorrectly stating that photography is not allowed. THOSE ARE THE ISSUES. NOT what you posted.

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(532001)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 08:12:26 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 08:04:43 2007.

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I dont think Kevin has a problem, he understands maybe in your opinion he dont, but thats your opinion has no merit to me,really.

I have have an idea, check it out..

I suggest you write a letter to Homeland Security, Not NYPD,not the MTA state the issues and tell them to "train" them better yes?

So innocent railfans dont have to deal with this stuff.

Just remember This story has only One side being told...

Makes sense to me..

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(532002)

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Re: Learning how to respect other SubChatters

Posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 08:12:45 2007, in response to Re: Learning how to respect other SubChatters, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 07:20:51 2007.

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The satisfaction of making it? The hope that maybe - just maybe - Ron will actually read it properly? The ability to laugh at his absurd reply with people I know in the far more likely event that he doesn't?

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(532005)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 08:16:44 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 08:12:26 2007.

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Kevin does not have a clue!

The issue is not how train them better. The issue is making people here understand that the T/O did something wrong in the first place.

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(532011)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 08:24:13 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 07:50:01 2007.

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Ah! Special High Intensity Training, eh? No ... that's not a trait of those who would do harm. When confronted, they sweat, try to divert and otherwise obscure their activities. Trust me on this, actual terrorists have "hidden" cameras, or they got their diagrams off Pirrman's place in the 1990's. NEW construction is something else. But no explaining that to today's geniuses in charge. :(

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(532012)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 08:25:53 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 08:24:13 2007.

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now that is something i can agree with. nice.

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(532014)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 08:27:32 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 07:53:37 2007.

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Heh.

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(532018)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 08:29:02 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 08:16:44 2007.

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The issue is making people here understand that the T/O did something wrong in the first place

If im correct ME and Pelham Bay Dave had said the T/O could have handled it better even Kevin said the T/O "needs to be retrained"..

Did you miss that part of his post?

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(532019)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 08:29:40 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 07:59:41 2007.

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Yawn.

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(532021)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Allan on Wed Dec 12 08:30:22 2007, in response to MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 02:17:52 2007.

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"They've been instructed QUITE specifically to report ANY "suspicious activity" and like it or not, they've been instructed that what you're doing IS"

Unka Kevin, the key word is REPORT. As I understand the way the instructions were given to TA staff - they are supposed to report suspicious activity - not CONFRONT the person(s) doing the activity that may be deemed suspicous.

That appears to be the biggest issue from what I have seen posted in a number of threads. The TA staff member actually says something to the the person taking the photo (e.g. "Photography is not allowed" etc). They are taking matters into their own hands which is contrary to the instructions they were given.

IMHO, the T/O was at fault. She should have simply gotten on the radio, reported it and let the NYPD handle it. Had she taken the train out of service for such a lame reason she surely would have been, at minimum, reprimanded. Based on her thinking any homeless person could be considered dangerous prompting lots of trains to be taken out of service.

Amazingly I have never encountered this situation. Perhaps a middle aged white male with a camera taking pictures doesn't make many people see suspicous activity - which is fine considering I am not doing anything suspicious.

So far I have been staying pretty much in the background in this entire thread but I might as well put in my 2 cents. Nilet - I don't recall ever meeting you on any of the MOD or similar trips but based on you various postings you seem to be making yourself a "target" a lot(whether intentionally or unintentionally). You seem to want the confrontation (again intentionally or unintentionally). My suggestion to you - if you plan to take action on this latest situation, continue to do so. But in the future try to be a bit more discreet. If confronted, you can state the rules but if you aren't getting anywhere - walk away. You can always go back after the train has left.



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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 08:33:13 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Allan on Wed Dec 12 08:30:22 2007.

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Good Post Allan...

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by BMTLines on Wed Dec 12 08:34:36 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 03:52:28 2007.

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Yes, perhaps the wigs might need a tweaking ... but in all seriousness, my driver's license, photo and personal info is in the possession of CSX police, CP police, State and a few other entities where I've wanted to take pictures of this or that. And I have PRESS passes for others from the local sheriff. If I *see* something, I can photo it with impunity. All I need do is call ahead, give them a reference number, and I can pass the yellow tape. :)

That kind of thing works well upstate or in smaller communities. Quite frankly if a railbuff were to call NYPD to ask for "permission" to photograph the system they would not even know how to handle the call or just refer the guy to MOFTB. TA public relations just tells you that they don't issue permits to amateurs. The agencies involved are just too big and bureucratic to care about one individual who wants to take pictures of trains. Call about spending $$$$ for a big commercial shoot OTOH and they might know what to do with that request ;-)

Questioning is one thing. But being told you can't do something that the rules expressly state you can is another. If a hotel were to advertise on its website that the price of the package includes use of the pool and you rely on that information to book a room - then you arrive only to be told that there is no swimming allowed - you can only look at it. I am sure some people would have a case for small claims court. MTA is a public agency so unfortunately they can't be dragged into small claims court though :-(

Railfans and others are relying on the information posted by the MTA. The rules do not say photography is not allowed on moving trains or in tunnels - they say photography and VIDEO is permitted - in clear and unambiguous language. Being questioned is one thing but if the questioning is excessively long and/or you are prevented from engaging in otherwise legal activity then there is a problem. In the subway the NYCLU has 1050.9c on its side. On the streets the NYCLU can site the new rules promulgated by the MOFTB and posted on New York City's website which specifically state permits are not required for most amateur photography.

My fear is that you will be seeing more and more confrontations like this as people realize the railfan window is going away and want to capture video from the front for their memories...

Personally I might not mind being detained for an hour or so - nationwide the various ACLU chapters are settling cases like that for an average of $5,000 - $20,000. Not bad for an hour's work ;-) Hell - If the taxpayers are accepting this behavior on the part of their police they should be willing to pay these settlements and a lot more!!!




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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 08:35:18 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 08:29:02 2007.

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just to clarify between you and me (intercourse the unibrow) ... the BULLETIN violates article 78 in its lack of clarity. MTA is violating its own rule, that's what article 78 is FOR. But cromagnon-man is too into his own stuff to pay any attention to what I said ...

POINT: MTA really SHOULD consider a "railfan ID" program where those who want to take pictures can be "pre-cleared" as NOT being a threat, issued a photo ID which says, "we KNOW this person and they're OK." THAT was where I was going, moron's sidetrips not withstanding. Something like this would ALLOW "vigilence" without the authorities having to waste time on NON-threats, and allow the hourlies to run their trains in peace ... flash a pass, I close door now, OK? :)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 08:38:18 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by BMTLines on Wed Dec 12 08:34:36 2007.

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The rules do not say photography is not allowed on moving trains or in tunnels - they say photography and VIDEO is permitted - in clear and unambiguous language.

THIS is where i had a problem in that training class..

If Video Taping on a Moving train is "Allowed" under the MTA rules, then why is it deemed "suspicous" by homeland security?

Theres gotta be a grey area in that ...

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 08:41:28 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 08:35:18 2007.

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MTA is violating its own rule

THIS is when people from Off The Street(Like Me)come down here and get a FIRST HAND LOOK..

Its "OK" for them to do it..

Just dont YOU do it, not even a fraction of one...

Some of them just understand why they do these things but you shouldnt.

Just follow thier rules and when sh**t happens your A** is covered beacuse they are going to look for someone to hang..

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Allan on Wed Dec 12 08:44:47 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 08:35:18 2007.

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"POINT: MTA really SHOULD consider a "railfan ID" program where those who want to take pictures can be "pre-cleared" as NOT being a threat, issued a photo ID which says, ........"

A good idea but that was brought up a while back and the MTA didn't want to spare the personnel to handle the large amount of requests they would be getting (and to maintian all the records they would have to).

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 08:49:28 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 08:35:18 2007.

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Having a pre-clear "railfan ID" program would be a good idea to avoid hassles as an addition to 1050.9(c), but there's always the risk that people would assume the "railfan ID" program means that photography without one is illegal and cause further problems for casual railfans or railfan tourists who may not know of the "railfan ID" or may not have one for various reasons.

...And as long as we're being cleared as "not a threat," does the railfan ID come with ration stamps for yard, cab, and crew room access?

Heh.


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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 08:50:54 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 08:49:28 2007.

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...And as long as we're being cleared as "not a threat," does the railfan ID come with ration stamps for yard, cab, and crew room access?

Um i dont think would be part of the deal..

Good try though...

;o)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 08:51:02 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 08:49:28 2007.

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...Just make sure the ration stamps are foam-soluble, so that hardcore foamers don't have any intact cab access stamps!

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 08:52:38 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 08:50:54 2007.

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Awwwwwww! *complains*

BTW, did you see my other post? It should have been part of that one, but I hit "post" too early and you snuck in before I could add it. Does that help the deal for cab/yard/crew room access?



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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by BMTLines on Wed Dec 12 08:56:54 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 03:52:28 2007.

edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr
fiogf49gjkf0d
Yes, perhaps the wigs might need a tweaking ... but in all seriousness, my driver's license, photo and personal info is in the possession of CSX police, CP police, State and a few other entities where I've wanted to take pictures of this or that. And I have PRESS passes for others from the local sheriff. If I *see* something, I can photo it with impunity. All I need do is call ahead, give them a reference number, and I can pass the yellow tape. :)

That kind of thing works well upstate or in smaller communities. Quite frankly if a railbuff were to call NYPD to ask for "permission" to photograph the system they would not even know how to handle the call or just refer the guy to MOFTB. TA public relations just tells you that they don't issue permits to amateurs. The agencies involved are just too big and bureucratic to care about one individual who wants to take pictures of trains. Call about spending $$$$ for a big commercial shoot OTOH and they might know what to do with that request ;-)

Questioning is one thing. But being told you can't do something that the rules expressly state you can is another. If a hotel were to advertise on its website that the price of the package includes use of the pool and you rely on that information to book a room - then you arrive only to be told that there is no swimming allowed - you can only look at it. I am sure some people would have a case for small claims court. MTA is a public agency so unfortunately they can't be dragged into small claims court though :-(

Railfans and others are relying on the information posted by the MTA. The rules do not say photography is not allowed on moving trains or in tunnels - they say photography and VIDEO is permitted - in clear and unambiguous language. Being questioned is one thing but if the questioning is excessively long and/or you are prevented from engaging in otherwise legal activity then there is a problem. In the subway the NYCLU has 1050.9c on its side. On the streets the NYCLU can site the new rules promulgated by the MOFTB and posted on New York City's website which specifically state permits are not required for most amateur photography.

My fear is that you will be seeing more and more confrontations like this as people realize the railfan window is going away and want to capture video from the front for their memories...

Personally I might not mind being detained for an hour or so - nationwide the various ACLU chapters are settling cases like that for an average of $5,000 - $20,000. Not bad for an hour's work ;-) Hell - If the taxpayers are accepting this behavior on the part of their police they should be willing to pay these settlements and a lot more!!!




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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 08:57:59 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Allan on Wed Dec 12 08:30:22 2007.

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First 4 paragraphs, EXCELLENT!

Re: the last paragraph: that is his discresion. If he chooses to want to continue photographing, for whatever reason, he is not doing anything wrong.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 09:00:41 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 08:52:38 2007.

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No i didnt see it...

When did you post it?

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 09:01:41 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 09:00:41 2007.

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I added it in response to my prior, here. Your post snuck in first, though.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Wed Dec 12 09:51:00 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Dec 12 08:29:40 2007.

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REALLY

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 09:52:04 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 08:51:02 2007.

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You are bad dude real bad, Heh

;o)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Alex L. on Wed Dec 12 09:53:55 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 08:38:18 2007.

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If Video Taping on a Moving train is "Allowed" under the MTA rules, then why is it deemed "suspicous" by homeland security?

If wearing shoes while entering a train is "Allowed" under the MTA rules, then why is it deemed "suspicous" by homeland security?

Who said rules have to make sense? Go read Bulletin 60-03, then operate accordingly and let me know what happens.

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