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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 23:16:46 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Easy on Wed Dec 12 22:54:49 2007.

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But even if I did try to set her straight I wouldn't have had my camera on. There was no chance that she was going to be receptive to your argument when you did that.

It wasn't on. I turned the camera off. I didn't turn it back on again until I realized that the situation had escalated to the point where I wanted to play it safe and have a record just in case. That's why my transcript is missing the entire beginning of the encounter.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 23:17:06 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:13:58 2007.

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I can understand your view on it..

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Dec 12 23:17:38 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Train Dude on Wed Dec 12 22:04:13 2007.

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The foamers' difficulty appreciating your perspective, and their social difficulties, notwithstanding, I do think the perceived risk is overblown. Even without videothere are plenty of ways to get information.

Plus, in New York, trespassing in subway tunnels and open cuts is rampant (check out the ramp sides on the Jamaica Line as it descends into the Archer Av tunnel, for example). And there is a whole homeless encampment under Grand Central! If there are people entering the tunnel daily to spray graffitti or live in cardboard boxes, what would keep saboteurs out of the tunnels? Moreover, they could photograph and diagram things in detail that you can't from a moving train because you go by the thing of interest too quickly.

That's what makes the whole anti-photography thing so silly. It simply isn't a credible threat.

I think that certain foamers make a nuisance of themselves. There are cases where they distract train crews, where they shove people aside or bark at them when they block the precious railfan window, and so on. Obviously that needs to be addressed, and if the foamer, due to suffering from Asperger's, or autism, or altenatively just being a self-centered asshole, can't make adjustments, then he needs to leave the train and take a break.

But I don't think MTA should be harassing anyone just for taking pictures - especially since NYPD made severalarrests last year where photographs or video were crucial as evidence.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 23:19:30 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Easy on Wed Dec 12 23:04:16 2007.

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What did you do to clean the train?

Picked up newspapers that the morning commuters had strewn all over the car. The T/O was cleaning out the papers, and there were a lot, so I pitched in and picked up some of them.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Dec 12 23:20:11 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by trainsarefun on Wed Dec 12 23:15:35 2007.

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Brian would not have been able to report the relevant details accurately, anyway. Selective memory...

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:21:14 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by trainsarefun on Wed Dec 12 23:07:56 2007.

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For whatever reason, some employees seem to think - I have to guess because they themselves have been taught that by supervision and supervision's supervision - photography is categorically not allowed.

And because they are totally clueless about what's going on around them - the photography issue was all over the news a few years ago, and has come up since. It is unfathomable that these employees not only are clueless to a major issue in the news, but that they also feel the need to directly and rudely go against a direct order from their management.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Easy on Wed Dec 12 23:22:28 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 23:16:46 2007.

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Thanks for the clarification.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Dec 12 23:22:42 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 22:43:30 2007.

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"However, if I'm confronted by a T/O the moment I board and told specifically that photography is illegal, there's not much I can do."

Because you haven't learned what you can do, and are defensive when offered an alternative strategy.

Helping to pick up litter in the train is very nice. It's nice to the cleaners, nice to the train crew and nice to other passengers. It does build goodwill. I thank you for doing it.


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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Easy on Wed Dec 12 23:26:30 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 23:19:30 2007.

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Neither passengers nor T/O's clean up trash in LA. Too much disgusting stuff hidden in there. Newspapers that people blow their noses in or worse. Trying to be a good citizen I almost through away a gatorade bottle a couple of weeks ago until I noticed that the yellow liquid in the bottle was, in fact, not gatorade! You really need to wear gloves if you do that kind of stuff.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 23:28:08 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by RonInBayside on Wed Dec 12 23:22:42 2007.

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Because you haven't learned what you can do, and are defensive when offered an alternative strategy.

If you offer a pisspoor alternative and I explain what's wrong with it, I'm not being "defensive."

You previously suggested not taking the video I was there to take and then spending several hours on a Saturday going back to re-take it. I said that this was unsatisfactory because it required several hours of unnecessary work from me and would likely increase further harassment of railfans. If you have any other suggestions, I'm happy to hear them.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Dec 12 23:28:28 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:12:42 2007.

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what reason is there for any of the rest of us to doubt his story and start exploring alternate scenarios? If there is a good reason to doubt his story, then sure, go right ahead! But I haven't seen that good reason. No one has even proposed a good reason.

Well, I'll state the reason for my skepticism, which may or may not be justified. I've never met Mr. Nilet nor do I know much about him other than that he takes pictures, and shoots video, of trains. I also know that he's had an inordinate number of run-ins with authorities concerning this activity. Maybe that's very bad luck, maybe he has a certain look that they don't like, maybe he meets some profile - I don't know.

So we started out being told that there was evidence in the form of a video. I haven't seen this footage. To my knowledge, no one has. As the saying goes, 'Let's go to the videotape.'

Secondly, we haven't heard from the NYCT employee in question. Even if you want to say that this person was wrong in her behavior, it would be nice to hear her account of things.

None of this means that I question whether or not Nilet told the truth; perhaps he told the truth as he recalls it. But we have reason so far to doubt that recollection. As I recall the twists and turns of this post, Nilet has already altered his account as to being called a "terrorist" - perhaps further reflection and study would move everyone toward a true account of what happened.

Lastly, if Nilet believes that he was viciously wronged, has this proof of the wrong, then why doesn't he demand action? I was mistreated by a NYCT bus operator once. I gathered witnesses, wrote down the run number, time, bus number, and a description of the driver, called the depot, got referred to the superintendent, and relayed my information. He checked the story, which checked out, and the employee was disciplined. The superintendent apologized on behalf of the organization, and I accepted with no hard feelings. I thought I was wronged and did something about it. My expectation is that if anyone takes serious offense, they will do the same.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 23:29:58 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Easy on Wed Dec 12 23:26:30 2007.

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Yuk! In this case, though, it appeared to be merely newspapers we were dealing with. There was some other trash, but no one touched that. In any case, the T/O was cleaning up, and we weren't scheduled to leave for awhile, and I was waiting for that specific train to leave, so I figured it would be nice to help out.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:33:01 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 23:06:04 2007.

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Yes, meant "employer." Sorry.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Dec 12 23:35:10 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:21:14 2007.

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It is unfathomable that these employees not only are clueless to a major issue in the news, but that they also feel the need to directly and rudely go against a direct order from their management.

I've seen more police tell people that than NYCT employees - that photography either isn't allowed, or in one case "is okay if it's pictures of yourselves" - which is a bigger problem, because police of course are charged with law enforcement.

But I don't know what management has told employees. Where's the direct order you speak of? Judging from how widespread this mistaken belief is, I estimate that it had to be gleaned from a mistaken or misleading statement from supervision at MTA/NYCT and NYPD.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 23:35:42 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:33:01 2007.

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One demerit...

;o)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:36:09 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 22:59:10 2007.

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I never said he was correct! I questioned your saying that he's wrong!

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 23:39:15 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:36:09 2007.

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I just said "think again"...

I didnt say he was wrong..

Did I?

Of coruse it can be "impiled" that i was saying he "could" be wrong though right?




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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:43:13 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by trainsarefun on Wed Dec 12 23:15:35 2007.

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Because?

Um. Because he was standing on a platform using a camcorder. What you said that I quoted is irrelevant.

I didn't realize that you are a witness to the incident in question....

I wasn't. I'm going off of what Nilet has said. There is no reason to doubt him. Both on and off the board he has proven to be a trustworthy and decent person, and I don't see any reason not to give him the benefit of the doubt. Normally you need a reason to doubt someone. You don't automatically doubt someone you "know" just because someone else you don't know has an issue with them. And his story is totally plausible. The people doubting his story are doing so because it makes it convenient for them to attack someone they don't like, or someone who makes choices they don't like, even though they were not "wrong" by any means.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:44:52 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 23:17:06 2007.

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Yeah, I've met him, and you haven't. But you and I and him have all been on this board for a while now. Do you have some reason to doubt him that I should know about?

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:46:32 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 23:28:08 2007.

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Do you honestly think he has a valid alternative? So then why bother?

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 23:49:34 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:43:13 2007.

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So then theres nothing wrong with "doubting" someones story if you dont know them right?

If you dont have any "issues" with them correct?

You never heard me say that i believed it either yes?

I always said theres two sides to every story and so far im only hearing one..

Just my thoughts...

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Dec 12 23:53:00 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:43:13 2007.

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My reasons for current skepticism were expressed here. I'm a skeptic as to many things, not just this incident. So far as I'm concerned, there's a lot about this incident that we simply do not know, so I judge skepticism warranted until we have more facts to go on.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 23:53:34 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:44:52 2007.

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Do you have some reason to doubt him that I should know about?

I dont know him...

Nothing personal Terrapin i just dont "take" anybodys word on things....

Beacuse most of the times all you have is your word..

Just need a little proff thats all or facts, now if i knew him yeah im in his corner and i will back him up like you are..

Its just me, and i do admit it hasnt done me wrong yet..

P.S im even this way with family sometimes..

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Dec 12 23:56:02 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 23:49:34 2007.

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I always said theres two sides to every story and so far im only hearing one..

Sometimes there are even more sides than that! Look at, e.g., Rashomon. The employee could have one story, Nilet another, and the truth of the matter could lie elsewhere or in between.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 23:56:57 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by trainsarefun on Wed Dec 12 23:56:02 2007.

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Wow thats deep...

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Dec 13 00:08:22 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by trainsarefun on Wed Dec 12 23:28:28 2007.

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Well, I'll state the reason for my skepticism, which may or may not be justified. I've never met Mr. Nilet nor do I know much about him other than that he takes pictures, and shoots video, of trains.

Bot plenty of other frequent posters here HAVE met him and have not indicated any reason to doubt him. I have met him, talked with him, and railfanned with him on several occasions.

I also know that he's had an inordinate number of run-ins with authorities concerning this activity. Maybe that's very bad luck, maybe he has a certain look that they don't like, maybe he meets some profile - I don't know.

Right, YOU don't know. But that doesn't matter. No matter the reason, there is a proper way to deal with anyone who an employee or policeman finds suspicious in relation to photography, and that way does not involve saying that photography is not permitted. That's the only issue here.

So we started out being told that there was evidence in the form of a video. I haven't seen this footage. To my knowledge, no one has. As the saying goes, 'Let's go to the videotape.'

Maybe I missed it, but I thought he said only the audio would be worthwhile in said video, since the lens was pointing at his copy of the rules.

Secondly, we haven't heard from the NYCT employee in question. Even if you want to say that this person was wrong in her behavior, it would be nice to hear her account of things.

And we're likely not going to hear from her. You realize that, right? Also, after countless reports from many people here of employees telling them photography is not allowed, and even getting belligerent about it, what reason do you have to doubt that this incident could have occurred as he said it did?

None of this means that I question whether or not Nilet told the truth; perhaps he told the truth as he recalls it. But we have reason so far to doubt that recollection. As I recall the twists and turns of this post, Nilet has already altered his account as to being called a "terrorist" - perhaps further reflection and study would move everyone toward a true account of what happened.

I don't consider that a twist. He originally said he was called a terrorist, and then he changed that to her saying that what he was doing is something a terrorist does. I think the intent of both statements is the same. I don't see a lack of honesty issue with him making that correction of the facts. Being in such a situation can certainly be a traumatic experience.

Lastly, if Nilet believes that he was viciously wronged, has this proof of the wrong, then why doesn't he demand action? I was mistreated by a NYCT bus operator once. I gathered witnesses, wrote down the run number, time, bus number, and a description of the driver, called the depot, got referred to the superintendent, and relayed my information. He checked the story, which checked out, and the employee was disciplined. The superintendent apologized on behalf of the organization, and I accepted with no hard feelings. I thought I was wronged and did something about it. My expectation is that if anyone takes serious offense, they will do the same.

I believe he stated that one of the reasons he posted this story was to find out if people here think he should go ahead and "take action".

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Dec 13 00:08:52 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 23:28:08 2007.

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Your video is not "work." Your video is an avocation. If the field trip didn't work out today, you come back some other time. Get over it.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Train Dude on Thu Dec 13 00:09:33 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 22:47:14 2007.

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One does not have to be "all knowing" to know that you are "all wrong".

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Train Dude on Thu Dec 13 00:16:50 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 22:53:48 2007.

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This is true! You have no idea. The only thing you know is that you want to do what you want to do and the hell with the rest of the world. To know you in real life would be a great pleasure, I assure you.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Train Dude on Thu Dec 13 00:18:28 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:05:10 2007.

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It would really be refreshing if you actually had a clue about what you are flapping about. Then again it's refreshing that you don't let ignorance stop you.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Nilet on Thu Dec 13 00:18:37 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by RonInBayside on Thu Dec 13 00:08:52 2007.

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If the field trip didn't work out today, you come back some other time.

As I said, this would require several hours of additional work. If you'd be happy to spend several hours doing something completely unnecessary on the grounds that it's not directly related to your job, then that's fine with me, but don't assume that everyone would be happy to drop something they're doing, travel away, and spend several hours trying to return and finish on a Saturday for the weakest of reasons, whether they were being compensated for the work with money, personal enjoyment, both, or something else entirely.

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Re: Respect the T/O's request not to film her

Posted by ntrainride on Thu Dec 13 00:19:08 2007, in response to Re: Respect the T/O's request not to film her, posted by BMTLines on Wed Dec 12 01:17:21 2007.

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Naw. I just know how people are. Yeah, I've taken beau coup shots over the years, mainly crappy disposable camera snaps. But I timed the picture taking so as not to bug my fellow riders or the train personal. What's the BFD? We're irrational beasts at "stress" times so, you know, it's simply something to take note of. Notice I said "the moment people start getting pissed at the picture taking". If that ain't da situation, snap away brah.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by BMTLines on Thu Dec 13 00:23:58 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 23:53:34 2007.

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I simply find Nilet's claim plausible - I surf the general photography boards as well and there are lots of people telling tales of how cops and TA personnel told them to stop taking pictures in the subway.

So I'm sorry but the event as described is quite plausible. IMO photographers need to make a united stand in order to stop the misinformation and blatant harassment. Getting behind the NYCLU lawsuit is one way. I have written my opinions on the issue to the MOFTB and Mayor Bloomberg with a cc: to the NYCLU. My latest letter was sharply critical of city policy and expressed full support for the NYCLU lawsuit.

I don't think anyone should give up their rights or priviledges without a counterargument. If approached by a motorman I feel anyone is within their rights to explain that photography is legal and show a copy of the rules. Personally I would not escalate it beyond that - if the motorman still refuses to allow the legal activity - I may let him think he won by pretending to back down. BUT what he won't know is that it is only the beginning. Besides posting details of his description and train he was operating on every photography and railroad website I would write scathing letters to the mayors office, MOFTB, ACLU, MTA, each and every City Council member and all the newspapers. Believe me I can be a vicious letter writer and I have no problem with getting anyone in trouble if they done me wrong!!!

Personally I have not been affected by this that much since my interest in the system is primarily historical and I really don't take too many pictures of current operations. Still I find the current police attitude towards photographers to be highly offensive and will strongly defend the right to use a camera anywhere, anytime and anyplace. If you can see it you should be able to "shoot" it (photographically).

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Dec 13 00:24:39 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by trainsarefun on Wed Dec 12 23:35:10 2007.

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I've seen more police tell people that than NYCT employees - that photography either isn't allowed, or in one case "is okay if it's pictures of yourselves" - which is a bigger problem, because police of course are charged with law enforcement.

My personal experiences has been that many, many more employees say that photography is not allowed vs. policemen.

But I don't know what management has told employees. Where's the direct order you speak of? Judging from how widespread this mistaken belief is, I estimate that it had to be gleaned from a mistaken or misleading statement from supervision at MTA/NYCT and NYPD.

The direct order was a bulletin (or the like) from NYCT to the employees that says that if they see suspicious activity, they are to report it to Control. And it says that certain types of photography may be suspicious. It does not say anything about photography being illegal. And it certainly does say anything about confronting or attempting to stop the person from taking photos. It very clearly gives one thing to do: call control. That's it.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Dec 13 00:25:31 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 23:39:15 2007.

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Why would he need to think again? Train Dude could certainly be wrong.

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Re: Respect the T/O's request not to film her

Posted by ntrainride on Thu Dec 13 00:26:39 2007, in response to Re: Respect the T/O's request not to film her, posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 03:36:37 2007.

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So, I'm surprised you object to my p.o.v. You say the dude got pissed at your activities. That's the way lots of folks are. And no, I don't think most people are carrying. But surely you can understand that it's neither your right nor privilege to present yourself in a way that would get a fellow passenger so incensed. It's like, do you walk up to guys and tell them they smell, or their mother's a slut? It's mainly, respect for the dignity of others. Even if what they consider their "dignity" might seem strange or absurd to you. In public that's the fare to be paid.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Dec 13 00:27:26 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 23:49:34 2007.

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So then theres nothing wrong with "doubting" someones story if you dont know them right?

Right, until someone vouches for them.

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Re: Respect the T/O's request not to film her

Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Dec 13 00:29:26 2007, in response to Re: Respect the T/O's request not to film her, posted by ntrainride on Thu Dec 13 00:26:39 2007.

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Nilet apparently has trouble deciphering social situations. If you were there, you'd have to write a script for him to follow and remind him when he misses his lines.

I'm not being sarcastic. Sometimes that's how some people have to function.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Dec 13 00:29:38 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 23:53:34 2007.

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It's one thing to not take his word for it. It's ANOTHER thing to start making up alternate scenarios and claiming that you might be any more right about them than Nilet is about his story.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Train Dude on Thu Dec 13 00:30:06 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by RonInBayside on Wed Dec 12 23:17:38 2007.

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I've never been "harassed" on any rail property. And let's clarify one thing, the MTA is harassing anyone over photography. But let's take the hypothetical - what if nilet was standing on the platform - taping the train and the operator. Now suppose that he's standing in a position where he's obstructing the operator's view of the leaving signal or some other part of the ROW that he/she needs to pay attention to. The bottom line is there is no constitutionally protected right to unrestricted photography. If you think I'm wrong, try to film in a jail, or a court house, or a municipal hospital or in a nuclear power plant, etc. The New York Subway System is not operated for the pleasure of the foamer. If the foamer wants to co-exist, it is he who should bend to accommodate the MTA.

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Re: Respect the T/O's request not to film her

Posted by ntrainride on Thu Dec 13 00:30:09 2007, in response to Re: Respect the T/O's request not to film her, posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 05:13:16 2007.

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Hol' on bro. Are you saying that now it's okay to be staring at people on a train or on the street? I'm thinking...you're off base with that one. Prolonged attention paid to strangers is kindofa dangerous move to make, even today. Times haven't changed that much.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Dec 13 00:30:14 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Thu Dec 13 00:18:37 2007.

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he's not gonna get it...

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Dec 13 00:31:09 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by BMTLines on Thu Dec 13 00:23:58 2007.

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"IMO photographers need to make a united stand in order to stop the misinformation and blatant harassment. Getting behind the NYCLU lawsuit is one way. I have written my opinions on the issue to the MOFTB and Mayor Bloomberg with a cc: to the NYCLU. My latest letter was sharply critical of city policy and expressed full support for the NYCLU lawsuit."

Excellent. Agreed. A contribution (as in $$ to help with lawsuit expenses) wouldn't hurt either.






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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Train Dude on Thu Dec 13 00:31:43 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by trainsarefun on Wed Dec 12 23:35:10 2007.

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The fact is that if the police feel that some conduct poses a threat to public safety, they have the absolute right to stop it.

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Re: Respect the T/O's request not to film her

Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Dec 13 00:34:04 2007, in response to Re: Respect the T/O's request not to film her, posted by ntrainride on Thu Dec 13 00:26:39 2007.

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wow, you read what he write but you totally aren't comprehending the words. you are just making up your own version of events. unbelievable.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Train Dude on Thu Dec 13 00:34:43 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Dec 13 00:25:31 2007.

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He most certainly is not wrong in this case. I would tell you that if i felt that you were engaged in an activity that I believed would interfere with safe operation of the system, i would take the appropriate action to stop that behavior.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Dec 13 00:35:11 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Train Dude on Thu Dec 13 00:31:43 2007.

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Actually, no. Their judgment must be "reasonable" and must include accounting for circumstances as well as what the law says.

That said, there is an area of discretion and an area outside of it. My objection is when they go outside of it (which they are doing in many photography cases). It's primarily the fault of supervision and upper management of the department. I am rooting for the NYCLU to win the case.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by trainsarefun on Thu Dec 13 00:35:49 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Dec 13 00:24:39 2007.

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The direct order was a bulletin (or the like) from NYCT to the employees that says that if they see suspicious activity, they are to report it to Control. And it says that certain types of photography may be suspicious. It does not say anything about photography being illegal. And it certainly does say anything about confronting or attempting to stop the person from taking photos. It very clearly gives one thing to do: call control. That's it.

OK then, assuming arguendo that your bulletin was promulgated to all concerned, read, and understood (a big assumption as even people who send a memo out to 25 people know....):

In the case of Nilet, isn't that what the engineer did? Arguably with some confrontation, though, on his (revised) account of it.

Less specifically, do you know what instructions train crews were given by their supervisors orally, or what the NYPD tells its officers? Institutional culture can be very complicated, and very tough to overcome.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by trainsarefun on Thu Dec 13 00:39:25 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Dec 13 00:27:26 2007.

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Right, until someone vouches for them.

And what does vouching do? You guarantee based on the same information available to anyone else that Nilet should not be doubted, and one should be satisfied by this?

If someone is skeptical of God's existence and I vouch for God's existence, that should change the skeptic's mind?

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Easy on Thu Dec 13 00:42:11 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by trainsarefun on Thu Dec 13 00:39:25 2007.

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Isn't it okay to just discuss Nilet's version? That seems controversial enough by itself.

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