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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 9 09:42:20 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Jeff Rosen on Sun Dec 9 07:56:26 2007.

I should think that the transgression would fall under the general heading of harassment. A person has a reasonable expectation of not being stopped, questioned, detained or questioned without probable cause. I should think that taking photographs would not constitute probable cause, inasmuch as such activities are defined as proper under NYCT's regulations.

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Bob Andersen on Sun Dec 9 09:53:24 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Sun Dec 9 09:11:52 2007.

Thanks David.





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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 9 09:57:33 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Jeff Rosen on Sun Dec 9 07:56:26 2007.

How did the motorman violate that law? Does the law state that it's against the law (thereby prosecutable) for an transit employee to ask one to stop taking pictures? If it is, is it a violation, misdemeaner, or felony?

Taking the allegations as the whole truth, there's not necessarily anything criminal alleged. But NYCT should nonetheless be concerned that this employee is perhaps exposing them to needless liability.

Also, I'm sure that NYCT, as many times as they've been sued for all sorts of things, has protocols in effect on who's in charge of enforcing relevant law; for very prudential reasons, train crews shouldn't be assigned to enforce photography regulations, even assuming, arguendo, that there was a violation of them in this case.

So putting aside the question of whether a criminal law provision was violated or not, it seems, realistically, that even if such provision(s) were, in fact, violated, then it's highly unlikely that prosecution would ensue. But there might well be a clear-cut violation of federal and state civil rights law in these allegations.

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O


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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 9 10:03:29 2007, in response to Called A "Terrorist" By A T/O, posted by Nilet on Sun Dec 9 00:42:46 2007.

How come this stuff only happens to you ???????
You sure setting yourself up to get a file at MTAPD and your blowiing any chance to ever work in your well loved railroad enviroment.


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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sun Dec 9 10:05:13 2007, in response to Called A "Terrorist" By A T/O, posted by Nilet on Sun Dec 9 00:42:46 2007.

I really don't want to get a t/o in trouble unless really necessary.

It sounds fairly necessary to me. It's just unacceptable to have T/Os not only violating the rules but also have them violate them in such a way as to bring the MTA publicly into disrepute.

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 9 10:05:27 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 9 09:57:33 2007.

I should add that generally, for any employer, it should as a matter of minimizing liability make sure that only persons empowered to make statements on certain matters make them. Whether this employee was provoked or not - and we have only the allegations posted - s/he should call supervision if there's a problem not within the direct province of the employee's authority to speak on. So far as anyone's aware, this employee is not in charge of designating who's a terrorist, which is of course exposure to mountains of liability for a public authority.

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by error46146 on Sun Dec 9 10:06:04 2007, in response to Called A "Terrorist" By A T/O, posted by Nilet on Sun Dec 9 00:42:46 2007.

Some very harsh words there by the train operator

Are you going to just take that from him???

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Fred G on Sun Dec 9 10:06:32 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Jeff Rosen on Sun Dec 9 07:56:26 2007.

I agree, don't think he broke the law, was just plain wrong. If that's a crime then we're all hosed.

your pal,
Fred

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by error46146 on Sun Dec 9 10:07:58 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Jeff Rosen on Sun Dec 9 07:56:26 2007.

It should be a felony

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Russ on Sun Dec 9 10:09:11 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by error46146 on Sun Dec 9 10:07:58 2007.

Why?

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 9 10:14:26 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Fred G on Sun Dec 9 10:06:32 2007.

I agree, don't think he broke the law, was just plain wrong.

Careful. Mr. Rosen is definitely right, I think, that no crime/violation here would be prosecuted - I'm less sure that there were no violations of any criminal law or code of conduct, but we can all agree that they wouldn't be prosecuted.

Nonetheless, if the allegations are true, and shown to be true, NYCT supervision would very likely not be pleased with this employee, not least because the employee has acted improperly while putting NYCT up to civil liability.

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 9 10:16:38 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by error46146 on Sun Dec 9 10:07:58 2007.

LOL - no, we all say stupid things every once in a while, but hopefully not while acting in a professional capacity. You don't want to people in prison for this sort of thing. Or at least, most of us certainly don't want that.

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Dec 9 10:17:55 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Nilet on Sun Dec 9 04:22:05 2007.

He never met a real terrorist.
Ask the Israelis what happens when you challenge a terrorist like that.

BOOM.



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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Dec 9 10:20:58 2007, in response to Called A "Terrorist" By A T/O, posted by Nilet on Sun Dec 9 00:42:46 2007.

If he did not speak to you, no big deal.
If he did speak with you, then ask to see his badge.
If he will not show it to you, then tell him that you will not honor his request, and that you will not speak with him.
If he says he will dump the train, then tell him "Its your train, operate it as you see fit."
Just let him try to explain *that* one to control.

ROAR

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Fred G on Sun Dec 9 10:21:08 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 9 10:14:26 2007.

Suppose the advice you gave me in your post is incorrect. Would that make you liable?

your pal,
Fred

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 9 10:33:07 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Fred G on Sun Dec 9 10:21:08 2007.

I hope not!

But an employee in uniform has got to be very careful calling anyone an offensive name in front of others, especially 'terrorist' in an age like ours. And a train's engineer has to be careful also in what he says about photography regulations and orders not to photograph. (All of this is aside form this case, it goes for any case).

Because, from the employee's perspective even if there's nothing wrong with his conduct under the law, his employer might well take unfavorable action. Employers punish employees all of the time for saying things that the government can't punish. As for "advice", well, we live in a very litigious society, and were I advising an employer, it's important to give them the worst-case scenario so that they can evaluate their own protocols. (That's certainly what the people who advise the pharmaceutical companies must do - it's like, wow, most any medicine one takes can kill him or make him wish he were dead!).

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Sun Dec 9 10:38:08 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Bob Andersen on Sun Dec 9 09:53:24 2007.

G.O. ended, everything normal.

Enjoy, bye!

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by monorail on Sun Dec 9 10:39:11 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Nilet on Sun Dec 9 02:21:09 2007.

was told by a t/o that I needed a permit to take pictures
he seemed a bit argumentative



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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by streetcarman1 on Sun Dec 9 10:40:48 2007, in response to Called A "Terrorist" By A T/O, posted by Nilet on Sun Dec 9 00:42:46 2007.

Now I wonder if you were to be dressed up in drag as a little old lady, would that make a big difference in the eyes of the T/O? It seems like a "no-win" situation when taking any pictures anywhere these days. You just don't know who's a railfan vs. someone looking for trouble.

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by monorail on Sun Dec 9 10:43:40 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Nilet on Sun Dec 9 02:19:21 2007.

if there is a next time
tell him to call it into control
and report it as suspicious behavior, as per the bulletin

if he tries to take the train out of service because you are riding it, let him
he'll have to explain why to control. Nowadays, he needs permission




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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 9 10:44:51 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Jeff Rosen on Sun Dec 9 07:56:26 2007.

Does the law state that it's against the law (thereby prosecutable) for an transit employee to ask one to stop taking pictures?

NYS Penal Law

240.26 Harassment in the second degree.
A person is guilty of harassment in the second degree when, with intent to harass, annoy or alarm another person:
1. He or she strikes, shoves, kicks or otherwise subjects such other person to physical contact, or attempts or threatens to do the same; or
2. He or she follows a person in or about a public place or places; or
3. He or she engages in a course of conduct or repeatedly commits acts which alarm or seriously annoy such other person and which serve no legitimate purpose.
Subdivisions two and three of this section shall not apply to activities regulated by the national labor relations act, as amended, the railway labor act, as amended, or the federal employment labor management act, as amended.
Harassment in the second degree is a violation


I think section 3 should cover it.

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by monorail on Sun Dec 9 10:46:30 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Sun Dec 9 10:38:08 2007.

' everything normal'


??????????????????????

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 9 10:50:19 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Dec 9 10:44:51 2007.

Section 3 might cover it (or it might not), but at all events, I doubt that we would see any proceeding, on the account that we now have. Lots of things qualify as violations, but not many are actually treated as such.

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 9 10:53:01 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by monorail on Sun Dec 9 10:46:30 2007.

I think he means on the holiday train, as to the earlier speculation that there might be a re-route. this was the quick post he promised.

At least that's my interpretation.

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by BMTLines on Sun Dec 9 10:55:49 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Jeff Rosen on Sun Dec 9 07:56:26 2007.

The law says that photography is permitted - the motorman did not commit a prosecutable offense -no - but he did violate the photographer's right to take pictures under the law. The rule does NOT say "may be permitted at the discretion of our employees". It says very clearly and unambiguously "IS PERMITTED". What if someone took a day off to photograph the system RELYING on the rules as stated in the MTA website only to be told by an employee acting in official capacity that he can't do it? The photographer has a reasonable expectation to believe that the rules will be respected by the agency that issues them. If the MTA were a private company their butts would be hauled off to small claims court for damages (lost time, wages, etc...) Since they are a government agency it is a bit harder but the NYCLU needs to get involved since the agency is apparently tolerating such statements from its employees.

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Fred G on Sun Dec 9 10:56:22 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 9 10:33:07 2007.

LOL, I hope not either; I played devil's advocate.

I think our example T/O would be lectured by his supervisor about giving bad direction/advice the first time and subsequent incidents would invite increasingly severe warnings.

your pal,
Fred

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Dec 9 11:02:50 2007, in response to Called A "Terrorist" By A T/O, posted by Nilet on Sun Dec 9 00:42:46 2007.


- File a complaint.

- Follow it up.

- Demand punishment.

- Don't just whine about it on this board.

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Dec 9 11:05:14 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Dec 9 01:24:51 2007.


It's probably his appearance, unfortunatley.

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 9 11:08:52 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Fred G on Sun Dec 9 10:56:22 2007.

I think our example T/O would be lectured by his supervisor about giving bad direction/advice the first time and subsequent incidents would invite increasingly severe warnings.

That's the way it should be, I think. A lot of the photography problem is basically the lack of a clear policy from the people in charge communicated to the rank and file. The policy on paper is quite clear, but it is in practice a throw of the dice on who's enforcing which other policy on which day.

I'm even hopeful that so far as the big part of the as-applied challenge to the enforcement of NYCT regulations goes, a settlement can be reached in which rank and file employees - especially police officers, who are the ones mostly in charge of law enforcement - are able to clearly understand from their supervision what the applicable law is.

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Dec 9 11:12:12 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Dec 9 10:20:58 2007.


If he says he will dump the train, then tell him "Its your train, operate it as you see fit."
Just let him try to explain *that* one to control.


Exactly. I'd call his bluff.


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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by checkthedoorlight on Sun Dec 9 11:19:59 2007, in response to Called A "Terrorist" By A T/O, posted by Nilet on Sun Dec 9 00:42:46 2007.

We all have our encounters from time to time. I've been pretty lucky with mine in the past...I usually try to cooperate and get things over with, and that always leads to me leaving the scene in one piece and with everything I arrived with. I did have an encounter with the T/O of the Rockaway Shuttle at Broad Channel (one of the most scenic and out of the way stations to take photos) a couple of years ago, where he asked to see my photo permit, and when I told him that I didn't need one, he said he was going to call the cops, but then I said "sorry" and he immediately pulled his train to the layup track and that was the last I heard about that. While I still feel like it is important to report these encounters to the fellow railfans, and in the case of police encounters, they are doing their job so there should be no repercussions for them by mentioning the exact time and place, since there should be an official record of it anyway, the decision on whether to call out a specific transit employee really comes down to whether or not you felt he was acting in a manner that justifies him being punished. It is apparent that you are leaving out A LOT of details here. Were you called a terrorist because you were in a restricted area, trying to get that perfect angle, or was it because you just happened to be holding a camera? Regardless, being called that in public, by a transit employee, is likely to incite panic from other passengers who hear this. Unless you KNOW (whether or not you want to tell US what happened) that the incident was your fault and that the T/O was trying to do his job, you shouldn't have anything to hide here.


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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Grand concourse on Sun Dec 9 12:28:57 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Dec 9 01:24:51 2007.

By now is it possible the MTA has "signs" warning T/o's and c/r's about him? I mean I know of bad luck, but this is getting ridiculous - seems like he's being targeted unfairly.

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 9 12:44:17 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Grand concourse on Sun Dec 9 12:28:57 2007.

I think Nilet is targeting himself, and in doing so he is creating a file on himself at MTAPD.

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Dec 9 12:52:25 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 9 11:08:52 2007.

The POLICY *is* Clear, but clearly there are employees, and police officers who have not read it.

It sure would be NICE if the MTA sent a BULLETIN to all operating employees specifying the criteria for reporting photography, i.e. suspicious behavior. AND how to do so without confronting the subject.

They should ALSO be told that Hobby Photography *is* permitted, and that they may if they wish, interact on a friendly basis with such persons as they would with other customers when it is safe to do so.

*I* was out in the Rockaways last summer, and my Shuttle to the Park was delayed by the draw bridge. As a matter of fact it was the T/O who brought the open draw bridge to my attention so that I could photograph it. We visited until the draw bridge was closed, and then he returned to his cab to await the green signal.

ROAR

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Edwards! on Sun Dec 9 13:17:46 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Nilet on Sun Dec 9 08:53:18 2007.

LOL...!

Have a Happy one,dude..

Save some Moo Goo Gai Pan for Me!

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 9 13:19:34 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Dec 9 12:52:25 2007.

Exactly.

I don't discern any difference between us in these posts, however. My only point is that there's on some occasions only a policy "on paper" and not "in practice". If the policy on the books already were enforced, with such background procedures as you suggest also promulgated, this unnecessary conflict can be ended in a just manner.

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Fred G on Sun Dec 9 13:34:40 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Dec 9 12:52:25 2007.

I'm disappointed that they haven't, given the publicity this subject enjoys when it comes up.

your pal,
Fred

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Grand concourse on Sun Dec 9 13:48:01 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Dec 9 12:44:17 2007.

Yeah, I mean what is this the 15th time he's been questioned by an employee or cop? By now I'd have to rule out bad luck, cuz it can't be 'that' bad.

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Grand concourse on Sun Dec 9 13:48:24 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Mr Mabstoa on Sun Dec 9 01:57:38 2007.

lol.

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Grand concourse on Sun Dec 9 13:49:36 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Russ on Sun Dec 9 10:09:11 2007.

He [error] always makes a big deal about cases like this.

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Dec 9 13:49:53 2007, in response to Called A "Terrorist" By A T/O, posted by Nilet on Sun Dec 9 00:42:46 2007.

If the T/O actually said everything the way you describe, then he should be disciplined. My preference in this case would be termination because he so egregiously exceeded the scope of his authority, violated TA policy and, in addition, made a baseless public accusation (slander) while in uniform and representing the Transit Authority in doing so.

Arguably, had other passengers threatened physical violence against you, the T/O could have been criminally charged.

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Dec 9 15:05:39 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Fred G on Sun Dec 9 13:34:40 2007.

And *I* think that some big contributer to the Transit Museum should sponsor a Photography Contest, complete with car cards promoting it, and have a conspicuous notice there on stating NYCT policy on photography.



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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by South Ferry on Sun Dec 9 15:36:56 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by error46146 on Sun Dec 9 10:06:04 2007.

What would -YOU- do??

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Grand concourse on Sun Dec 9 15:48:37 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by South Ferry on Sun Dec 9 15:36:56 2007.

Hopefully something that doesn't require physical violence.

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Easy on Sun Dec 9 16:34:08 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by South Ferry on Sun Dec 9 15:36:56 2007.

Probably nothing, but he's just a kid.

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by error46146 on Sun Dec 9 17:08:54 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by South Ferry on Sun Dec 9 15:36:56 2007.

Well first i could complain to MTA customer service

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by error46146 on Sun Dec 9 17:11:58 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 9 10:16:38 2007.

well that is true, but they should know better

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Train Dude on Sun Dec 9 18:27:21 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Nilet on Sun Dec 9 08:53:18 2007.

Stay away from the Hu Flung Dung!

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Dec 9 18:30:56 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by Railman718 on Sun Dec 9 08:27:03 2007.

Thanks! Was nice meeting you. I'll have your photos up shortly.

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Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O

Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Dec 9 18:31:40 2007, in response to Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 9 10:53:01 2007.

Yep.

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