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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 21:35:58 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 21:35:35 2007.

Oops. Double posted. Pardons.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Train Dude on Wed Dec 12 21:50:57 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 20:57:48 2007.

That is not for you to judge - having absolutely no knowledge of what it takes to operate a train safely. There were several different ways in which the situation could have been handled. In your fanciful version, you chose the least appropriate one - and then you wonder why rail personnel really don't like foamers.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Easy on Wed Dec 12 21:54:09 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Train Dude on Wed Dec 12 20:07:51 2007.

The original thought was not that terrorists would be photographing or videotaping - but that they might be able to exploit the photos or videos taken by buffs for their own purposes.

I doubt that you are correct.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)


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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Train Dude on Wed Dec 12 22:04:13 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Easy on Wed Dec 12 21:54:09 2007.

Well, considering that you have no first-hand information on which to base your speculation whereas I do, I'd suspect that this is just another one of those cases where you are speaking without knowing what you are talking about. Of course, we've come to expect that from you so don't feel to bad.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 22:09:01 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Train Dude on Wed Dec 12 21:50:57 2007.


Whether it's "not for me to judge" or not, I think we can say that getting on a train can't count as "distracting" the T/O, given that if the opposite were true, then there would be no subway system. That leaves holding up a camcorder while standing on the platform just beyond the stop marker while the train is stopped in the station with the doors open as "distracting the T/O." I stand by my previous statement that any T/O who is distracted to the point of being unable to operate safely by such a thing should not be a T/O.

As I said to Ron In Bayside, if you can come up with a better course of action, I'll implement it next time.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 22:12:22 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Easy on Wed Dec 12 21:54:09 2007.

I doubt that you are correct.

Think so my freind?

Think again...

If you seen that video they showed us in training it would open your eyes, at how people "really" use things for thier own wicked purposes..


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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Train Dude on Wed Dec 12 22:16:19 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 22:09:01 2007.

There is one axiom that I live by - that being, "Never try to teach a pig to play tennis. It annoys the pig and wastes your time." I suspect that we've got a similar situation in your behavior. I wish you well in your future life.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Train Dude on Wed Dec 12 22:17:44 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 22:12:22 2007.

Do not try to confuse (qu)easy with facts. In his own mind he is correct.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 22:19:57 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Train Dude on Wed Dec 12 22:16:19 2007.

Meh. Just like Ron. :(

You know, if you don't have any idea of what I could have done better, you can just say so, you realize.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Train Dude on Wed Dec 12 22:24:27 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 22:19:57 2007.

Considering that I do far more videotaping of railroads than I usually discuss here and have never had a problem with train crews, railroad management or the police, I think that you need to re-assess your behavior, especially your arrogance and sense of entitlement.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Easy on Wed Dec 12 22:26:55 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 22:19:57 2007.

Both TD and Ron are saying that the correct action would have been to put the camera away or take a different train.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 22:32:02 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Train Dude on Wed Dec 12 22:17:44 2007.

In certain ways we are all like that ...

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 22:34:03 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Train Dude on Wed Dec 12 22:24:27 2007.

Have you ever met me? No? Yet you still think yourself justified in assuming I'm at fault.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 22:43:08 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 21:06:42 2007.

Anyone can get distracted by anything. Train Dude was specifically talking about a distraction that would be a violation of 1050. There's no way in the world that Nilet's normal and permitted use of a camcorder on the platform would get him a summons for that violation, even if the T/O was totally and absolutely distracted by it. So your response is irrelevant to the thread.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Easy on Wed Dec 12 22:43:22 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 22:12:22 2007.

Well if you say so then I stand corrected. Thanks for clearing that up.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 22:43:30 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Easy on Wed Dec 12 22:26:55 2007.


OK. Next time I'll do that, assuming the negotiations for how much TD and/or Ron will pay me to compensate for the delay and inconvenience of waiving my right to take pics are productive. At ten-minute headways or so, the wait shouldn't be that bad. I'll take $2 plzkthx. :)

OK, being serious now, is getting off and waiting for the next train really the best response when you step on board only to be immediately confronted by the T/O and told that photography is illegal? With or without saying something or showing 1050.9(c) first?

If I'm getting on at a terminal (or have the chance for some other reason), I usually like to say a few words to the T/O, just to be friendly and avoid being labelled "suspicious." Some time after this encounter last Friday, I rode an put-in which hadn't been cleaned before it was laid up after the morning rush and helped the T/O clean out the first car while we were waiting to leave. Being friendly helps avoid being irritated by crew or cops later, and it also helps in and of itself just to be friendly. However, if I'm confronted by a T/O the moment I board and told specifically that photography is illegal, there's not much I can do.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Train Dude on Wed Dec 12 22:45:15 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 22:34:03 2007.

Absolutely

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 22:46:22 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 22:34:03 2007.

told ya :)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 22:47:14 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Train Dude on Wed Dec 12 22:45:15 2007.

Ah, so you're omniscient, then, like Ron is? :)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Dec 12 22:49:43 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 22:34:03 2007.

nobody else has these problems Nilet, so nuff said

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 22:50:59 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 22:43:08 2007.

There's no way in the world that Nilet's normal and permitted use of a camcorder on the platform would get him a summons for that violation, even if the T/O was totally and absolutely distracted by it. So your response is irrelevant to the thread.

I know that..

Maybe in your opinion it was "irrelevant" not in mines sorry..

P.S was you there when he was using the camera?

Or are you taking his word for it?



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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 22:52:44 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 22:43:30 2007.

However, if I'm confronted by a T/O the moment I board and told specifically that photography is illegal, there's not much I can do.

There is something you can do ..

Just do it on another train thats all..

Not ALL of us are like that Nilet..


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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Dec 12 22:53:24 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Train Dude on Wed Dec 12 20:07:51 2007.

For whatever reason, it seems that if the story told by nilet was true (and I still doubt it in its' entirety) his activities may have been distracting to the train operator.

For purely prudential reasons, complying with the request would have been best. Perhaps follow-up, if there's time, about what about it's specifically distracting is helpful too. E.g., a certain position could be reflecting blinding light into the cab, etc. NYCT is entitled to ensure safe operation of its trains.

Like many other incidents in life, even if the train's engineer was, in fact, being an ass - let's say for the sake of this paragraph that she was - then so what? We turn away from assholes everyday. The solution to being asshole isn't to be an asshole; otherwise the world would be full of assholes very quickly - assholes are great at provoking responses.

A little runt of a kid ran into me exiting the train, today, because he was in a such a hurry to get in that he couldn't be bothered to wait for people to first alight the train. I'm fairly sure that I could have easily elevated my elbow slightly to cause him a not insignificant amount of pain such that he was thrown back. But what does that prove? That I have time to waste arguing with a piece of crap like that? Hardly. People who behave like that eventually get what's coming to them, anyway; you don't have to believe in karma or anything like that - stupidity and arrogance invite more stupidity and more arrogance.

So you want my advice, Mr. Nilet? Walk away. Try to understand what the engineer's concern was, but even if it's a stupid reason, so what? Is it worth wasting your time on? But if you do judge it worth your while, then don't sit here and chat about it, especially with no proof of your allegations. Go pursue your right if you really think you were right and can prove it.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 22:53:48 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Easy on Wed Dec 12 21:54:09 2007.

Unless he's talking about "the original thought" behind the proposed photo ban a few years ago, I'd agree with you. Of course if he IS talking about "the original thought" behind the proposed photo ban a few years ago, I have no idea how that is relevant.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Wed Dec 12 22:54:15 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 22:52:44 2007.

Yes, your a nice T/O :)

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Easy on Wed Dec 12 22:54:49 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 22:43:30 2007.

Well that's what they say. I can't say for sure what I would have done. It would depend on several factors. I probably would've taken another train. But even if I did try to set her straight I wouldn't have had my camera on. There was no chance that she was going to be receptive to your argument when you did that.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 22:56:39 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 22:12:22 2007.

It's obvious how videos or photos could be used for wicked purposes. But how does that make Easy incorrect for doubting Train Dude's statement?

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 22:58:40 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Lord Vader on Wed Dec 12 19:40:20 2007.

How is that excellent? Not only would it not "satisfy all comers," it's a terrible, non-practical idea that the MTA would never implement, for a ton of good reasons.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 22:59:10 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 22:56:39 2007.

What makes him correct then?

I didn't say he was wrong for doubting him i just said "think again"..

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:00:55 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 22:50:59 2007.

I'm taking his word for it, since that's all we have right now. You can't consider any other scenario because there are an infinite number of possible scenarios.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:01:54 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Dec 12 22:49:43 2007.

Yes, other people have these problems, Dutch. A lot of people are told by the NYPD and by NYCT employees that photography is not allowed. I don't see how you could have missed that.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 23:02:21 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:00:55 2007.

You can't consider any other scenario because there are an infinite number of possible scenarios.

Now you are sounding like a Borg...



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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 23:03:06 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:01:54 2007.

Its not here its all over the country..

Not a "localized" thing..

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:03:11 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 22:52:44 2007.

That's his prerogative. He neither has to get off that train, nor should he. It's the T/O that has the problem. Let her deal with it as her employee says she should.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Dec 12 23:03:44 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:00:55 2007.

I'm taking his word for it, since that's all we have right now. You can't consider any other scenario because there are an infinite number of possible scenarios.

One can't be skeptical of a claim in a situation because there are many other possible claims about that situation that might be valid? If you're right, then how can anyone be skeptical of anything?

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Easy on Wed Dec 12 23:04:16 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 22:43:30 2007.

...helped the T/O clean out the first car while we were waiting to leave...

What did you do to clean the train?

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Dec 12 23:04:38 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 22:19:57 2007.

I showed you what you could have done, but you don't care.

You8 obviously don't respect the TA personnel who post here (like Train Dude), since you blow them off too.

My conclusion is that you are either very immature, or you may have a disability requiring professional help (such as a behavior coach).

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:05:10 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Easy on Wed Dec 12 22:54:49 2007.

He doesn't need her to be receptive to his argument. He needs her to just do her job, and not harass him, not to mention inconvenience everyone on the train.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by South Brooklyn Railway on Wed Dec 12 23:05:13 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Easy on Wed Dec 12 23:04:16 2007.

Told the pecker heard the train was out of service, and get them off the train.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by RonInBayside on Wed Dec 12 23:05:25 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Nilet on Wed Dec 12 22:47:14 2007.

No, he's just more mature than you are.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 23:06:04 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:03:11 2007.

Oh yes no doubt he can do whats best for him..

You mean her Employer....

Right?

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Easy on Wed Dec 12 23:06:14 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 22:59:10 2007.

I thought that saying "think again" meant that you think that someone is wrong?

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Dec 12 23:07:56 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 23:03:06 2007.

Its not here its all over the country..

Not a "localized" thing..


The trouble in NY is that photography is in fact not categorically banned. For whatever reason, some employees seem to think - I have to guess because they themselves have been taught that by supervision and supervision's supervision - photography is categorically not allowed.

But this defect is easily corrected, and there's really no reason why it shouldn't be, while instructing people who photograph the system proper behavior.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:08:17 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by trainsarefun on Wed Dec 12 22:53:24 2007.

Perhaps follow-up, if there's time, about what about it's specifically distracting is helpful too. E.g., a certain position could be reflecting blinding light into the cab, etc

Irrelevant to this case. He was on the platform. He boarded. He was immediately told that photography was not allowed. He did absolutely nothing wrong, nor anything that can be construed as wrong.



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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by chuchubob on Wed Dec 12 23:08:39 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by RonInBayside on Wed Dec 12 23:04:38 2007.

Quack!

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 23:09:48 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Easy on Wed Dec 12 23:06:14 2007.

"Think Again" has many infinate possible ways of being used..


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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:12:42 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by trainsarefun on Wed Dec 12 23:03:44 2007.

Sorry, I should have added that there is no reason to not give Nilet the benefit of the doubt. He has been posting here for what, two years now? He has been to several railfan events. He has been seen in person by several people here on several occasions. And through all of that, no one has ever shown him to lie about anything, nor has anyone ever claimed to have seen him do anything that violates any of the rules of 1050. So besides the fact that Train Dude and Ron like to make unwarranted personal attacks, what reason is there for any of the rest of us to doubt his story and start exploring alternate scenarios? If there is a good reason to doubt his story, then sure, go right ahead! But I haven't seen that good reason. No one has even proposed a good reason.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:13:58 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 23:02:21 2007.

OK...

But like I said, there's no reason to doubt him and start making up alternate scenarios.

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:15:10 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Railman718 on Wed Dec 12 23:03:06 2007.

Yes. But I assume Dutch was talking about people on this forum, and they are mostly concentrated in the NYC area, so....

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Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O)

Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Dec 12 23:15:35 2007, in response to Re: MTA training (Re: Called A ''Terrorist'' By A T/O), posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Dec 12 23:08:17 2007.

Irrelevant to this case.

Because?

He was on the platform. He boarded. He was immediately told that photography was not allowed. He did absolutely nothing wrong, nor anything that can be construed as wrong.

I didn't realize that you are a witness to the incident in question....

The world is a complicated place. Speaking casually in absolute terms strikes me as misguided. In fact, we could quickly resolve this dispute if we had all sides of the story and all available evidence. Since we don't, it's a bit premature to talk as though as a matter of logic, Nilet could not have done anything wrong.

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