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| Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn (1465483) | |
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| (1465953) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 16 15:25:43 2018, in response to Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Feb 16 10:37:34 2018. No do-overs, Wally! The original IND Fulton plans always had Court St included. Even when the Hoyt-Court shuttle was closed in 1946, it was reported in the Brooklyn Eagle to have been a temporary one, until the Fulton reached Broadway- East NY. The closed Court St station had been completely forgotten by 1948, when the line was extended to Euclid Ave. There were never any plans to connect the Fulton and Crosstown tracks. |
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| (1465960) | |
Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by BMT Standard on Fri Feb 16 16:37:58 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 16 15:12:42 2018. I don't think that Smith-9th was originally planned as a terminal, but somewhere along the line they figured out that they didn't need to run the GG trains all the way to Church Ave., so they built some crossovers on the cheap on the elevated section. |
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| (1465979) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Feb 16 19:35:18 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 16 15:25:43 2018. What’s interesting about the proposed full HH lcl service is that the service guides that were in some of the R-1/9s after the line opened to Euclid showed the complete HH service running between Court and ENY 2 years after the shuttle service had been discontinued. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (1465980) | |
Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Feb 16 19:42:36 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 16 15:12:42 2018. Prior to the Culver connection, it was the F than ran to Church, preceded by the E which was preceded by the A. |
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| (1465983) | |
Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Feb 16 20:27:39 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 16 15:12:42 2018. The F was running on the south Brooklyn line, then.The D came along when the connection was finished and opened for service....but you already know that. |
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| (1465985) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Feb 16 21:00:45 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by randyo on Fri Feb 16 19:35:18 2018. My 1948 Hagstrom IND map still shows the Court St. stub and the Heaving Harry operating between Court St. and Broadway-ENY. |
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| (1465987) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 16 21:17:06 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Feb 16 21:00:45 2018. I've seen that map as well. But others on here have reported that the service never actually ran in that pattern... |
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| (1465991) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 16 21:52:34 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by randyo on Fri Feb 16 19:35:18 2018. I always wondered how they would turn back both the "A and the "HH" at Broadway-East NY. Probably one of the main reasons why the "HH" never saw service to there. |
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| (1465992) | |
Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 16 21:55:40 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by randyo on Fri Feb 16 19:42:36 2018. The "GG" ran to Smith-9th, no matter what else ran to Church Ave. |
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| (1465993) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Feb 16 22:17:55 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 16 21:52:34 2018. Wow Broadway-East New York that's a name from the past!!Don't worry I still call stations Continental Avenue, Eastern Parkway, Broadway Nassau Street, and the list goes on |
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| (1465994) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 16 22:39:27 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Feb 16 22:17:55 2018. I always wondered why it wasn't originally named Broadway Junction. In 1946, when the station opened, you could transfer to 6 BMT lines:Jamaica, 14th St-Canarsie, 14th St-Fulton, the remaining Fulton St el, Lexington Ave or Fulton-Lex, and Broadway-Brooklyn lines. |
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| (1465998) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by BILLBKLYN on Sat Feb 17 00:07:41 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Feb 16 22:17:55 2018. Pacific Street, Lawrence Street, Van Sicklen, Flatbush Avenue (LIRR) |
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| (1465999) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Feb 17 00:45:22 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by BILLBKLYN on Sat Feb 17 00:07:41 2018. i liked Broadway-Nassau, before the MTA idiots changed that one to Fulton St. |
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| (1466000) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sat Feb 17 01:35:58 2018, in response to Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Feb 16 10:37:34 2018. Wallyhorse said: "What I suggest always is looked at on track maps before I post. It had been long noted before now why the (G) and (A) can't cross over, though I think if the IND had to do it over they would have found a way to have the trains cross over at Hoyt in case the (A) or (C) had to be diverted or the (G) was needed to go to Manhattan."I believe that in the very early 1930's as construction was completed that A trains (for a short period of time) and later E trains used Church Avenue as a terminal. Even today, A or C trains from Manhattan can be sent to Church Avenue from the switches at the Jay Street-Borough Hall station. On a regular basis A, C or F trains are switched between using the Cranberry or Rutgers Street tunnels to reach Manhattan when there is a G.O. or other situation. For countless weekends during the years-long construction of the Fulton Transit Center, the World Trade Center (and for other reasons) the A and C trains were switched away from their usual routes between Manhattan and Brooklyn. It is not hard to do so. I doubt that the planners of the IND would have changed their minds on their plans on a second go-around. The planners had their reasons behind their plans - and in the realization of the in-complete IND system that was built. Many transit fans lionize the planning and building of the IND subways - especially as the century anniversary approaches. Mike |
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| (1466002) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by LA Scott on Sat Feb 17 08:02:01 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by Michael549 on Sat Feb 17 01:35:58 2018. Even though the IND planners had their reasons (misguided) ideas about service patterns, at almost every other potential junction in the system they created switches to allow alternate plans with minimal or no disruption.The one glaring exception where a minor change could have allowed flexible alternatives is the Crosstown at Hoyt. |
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| (1466005) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Feb 17 09:29:13 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by LA Scott on Sat Feb 17 08:02:01 2018. I also don't understand why they didn't let the B/D switch with the E at 7 Ave in Manhattan. I'm not saying that would have resulted in an additional useful service pattern*, but it would have made detouring in case of a problem easier.Also, full crossover switches both north and south of W 4th Street on both levels would have been valuable. * Though if you want a B or D to come in from Brooklyn but not go to upper Manhattan, you could make a loop through 53rd Street. |
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| (1466006) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Feb 17 09:40:12 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by AlM on Sat Feb 17 09:29:13 2018. They run in physically opposite directions on each level. Any switching would involve significant wrong-railing. |
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| (1466008) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Feb 17 10:23:07 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Feb 17 09:40:12 2018. True. But I was thinking of the original design. Of course, it's quite possible there just isn't enough space between 8 Ave and 6 Ave to do what I propose. The fact that the southbound B/D come in on the "local" track at 47th-50th suggests space constraints (though those may relate to 50th being pretty close to 53rd rather than the distance between 8th and 6th). |
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| (1466011) | |
Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 17 10:40:15 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by BMT Standard on Fri Feb 16 16:37:58 2018. Correct... Those were supposed to be the EXPRESS Tracks.ROAR |
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| (1466016) | |
Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Feb 17 14:33:43 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 17 10:40:15 2018. Yes, EXPRESS tracks for a Second System subway under Ft Hamilton Pkwy, as well as the current route over McDonald Ave. |
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| (1466017) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Feb 17 14:42:50 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by AlM on Sat Feb 17 09:29:13 2018. The IND planners did leave some provisions, at 53rd/6th for route to 57th/6th and beyond, didn't they? |
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| (1466020) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sat Feb 17 14:54:44 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Feb 17 00:45:22 2018. So did I.It's too bad the MTA didn't decide to keep the Broadway-Nassau as a secondary name when they renamed it as in: Fulton Street (Broadway-Nassau) or better yet: Broadway-Nassau (Fulton Street) I'm sure that people, local and out of towners, could have figured it out, especially Europeans, where so many of their stations have compound street names. |
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| (1466021) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Feb 17 16:18:26 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 16 21:17:06 2018. That’s exactly what I’m talking about. The only vestige of an HH service that ever operated, the shuttle, was discontinued before that service guide was even published. |
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| (1466022) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Feb 17 16:22:40 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by Express Rider on Sat Feb 17 14:54:44 2018. According to an advertising card that was displayed in the early IND cars, then station at Bway/Nassau was referred to as “Fulton St” even though the station was never called that until the recent name change. It actually should have properly been called Fulton St from the beginning since that is the only IND station on Fulton St in Manhattan. Contrast that station naming with Steinway St which runs lengthwise under Steinway St in LIC. |
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| (1466023) | |
Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Feb 17 16:24:39 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 16 21:55:40 2018. Correct except for a brief period between 1968 and 1976 when rush hour GGs went to Church Av so their turning wouldn’t interfere with the F express service that ran at the time. |
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| (1466025) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sat Feb 17 16:26:03 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by randyo on Sat Feb 17 16:22:40 2018. Thank you for the info. details appreciated! |
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| (1466027) | |
Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Feb 17 16:27:08 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by BMT Standard on Fri Feb 16 16:37:58 2018. AFAIK, those Xovers were there from the beginning. |
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| (1466028) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Feb 17 16:30:25 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Feb 17 14:42:50 2018. Correct and that is what is currently used to access 63 St. |
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| (1466029) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by K. Trout on Sat Feb 17 16:37:52 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Feb 17 14:42:50 2018. The original idea was that it would turn east under Central Park then north to 2 Av somewhere around 61st St. Later this was revised into a new East River tunnel connecting with Queens Blvd south of 46th St (allegedly there's a bellmouth which goes straight under Broadway where the tunnel curves into Steinway). This of course eventually morphed into the 63 St line. |
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| (1466030) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sat Feb 17 16:41:48 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by randyo on Sat Feb 17 16:22:40 2018. You are right. Fulton tells you a lot more about its location than Bway-Nassau does. |
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| (1466031) | |
Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by K. Trout on Sat Feb 17 16:43:41 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by randyo on Sat Feb 17 16:27:08 2018. It was probably decided to make Smith-9th a terminal at some point after the concrete was poured, but before service patterns were finalized.Still a rather bizarre place for a terminal, unless one assumes the IND was so intent on crushing the BMT that they intentionally made transfers from 4 Av to the Crosstown more cumbersome. |
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| (1466044) | |
Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Feb 17 20:00:38 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by K. Trout on Sat Feb 17 16:43:41 2018. I think it's more they realized how much cheaper it was to put the full crossover there versus on either side of 7th ave. Usually express stations have crossovers, 7th is notable in that it has none on either end. |
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Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Feb 17 21:57:00 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by K. Trout on Sat Feb 17 16:37:52 2018. Very interesting Never knew about the idea of having trains on 6th Avenue going through the Steinway Tunnels to Queens. |
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| (1466056) | |
Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by BrooklynTrain on Sat Feb 17 22:31:19 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Feb 17 20:00:38 2018. The G from Fulton to 4thAve/9thSt is so roundabout that it's far quicker to get off the G at Fulton and jog down LafayetteAv & AshlandPl to get the southbound D/N/R at Atlantic. |
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Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Feb 17 22:41:28 2018, in response to Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Feb 17 21:57:00 2018. I don't think so. |
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Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Feb 17 23:55:55 2018, in response to Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Feb 17 21:57:00 2018. LOL! |
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Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Feb 18 00:17:30 2018, in response to Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Feb 17 21:57:00 2018. (allegedly there's a bellmouth which goes straight under Broadway where the tunnel curves into Steinway)...Never knew about the idea of having trains on 6th Avenue going through the Steinway Tunnels to Queens.That's Steinway St not the Steinway Tunnels. |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 18 10:05:36 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by K. Trout on Sat Feb 17 16:43:41 2018. unless one assumes the IND was so intent on crushing the BMT that they intentionally made transfers from 4 Av to the Crosstown more cumbersome.Some of the stuff I have read does indicate just that, but not sure if that is the reason here, but it would almost appear to be. |
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Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by K. Trout on Sun Feb 18 11:19:21 2018, in response to Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Feb 17 21:57:00 2018. This would have been a new tunnel to Queens Blvd, I don't know the exact path, but something like:
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Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 18 11:37:18 2018, in response to Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by K. Trout on Sun Feb 18 11:19:21 2018. I remember that proposed routing. But IIRC there was such an uproar about tunnelling that far up under Central Park that the plan was dropped. |
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Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by K. Trout on Sun Feb 18 12:35:36 2018, in response to Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 18 11:37:18 2018. Yep, hence the eventual compromise of 63rd. |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 18 14:11:46 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 18 10:05:36 2018. You also have to take the topography of the area into consideration. |
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Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 18 14:24:59 2018, in response to Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by K. Trout on Sun Feb 18 12:35:36 2018. Wasn't the 63rd St tunnel chosen, instead of 61st St, because of the seismographic monitors at Rockeffeller University? |
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Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Sun Feb 18 15:14:33 2018, in response to Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 18 14:24:59 2018. YUP. |
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Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 18 15:22:27 2018, in response to Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by TUNNELRAT on Sun Feb 18 15:14:33 2018. I thank thee, O Wise Ancient One, for thy wisdom! |
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Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Feb 18 15:31:55 2018, in response to Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by K. Trout on Sun Feb 18 11:19:21 2018. So... What mapping program are you using?ROAR |
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| (1466122) | |
Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 18 15:44:00 2018, in response to Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 18 14:24:59 2018. No. It was chosen of 64th Street for that reason. Since Rockefeller extends north of 63rd, how would 61st be worse for it?61st was the plan before it was moved to 64th, and then finally 63rd. |
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| (1466123) | |
Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 18 15:44:13 2018, in response to Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by TUNNELRAT on Sun Feb 18 15:14:33 2018. FALSE! |
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Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Sun Feb 18 17:35:00 2018, in response to Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 18 14:24:59 2018. Correct. |
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Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Sun Feb 18 17:35:27 2018, in response to Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 18 15:44:13 2018. This is indicated in NYCTA Annual Reports. |
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