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| Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan (1465483) | |
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Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Feb 18 18:00:27 2018, in response to Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 18 15:44:00 2018. So why wasn't 61st chosen? Would have made a transfer to the 4/5/6 so much easier. |
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Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by K. Trout on Sun Feb 18 19:20:43 2018, in response to Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Feb 18 15:31:55 2018. Google's My Maps. Good enough for a quick sketch; I use Google Earth for anything requiring more detail. |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sun Feb 18 19:22:18 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 18 14:11:46 2018. Ast to why they would use Smith-9th instead of 4th Ave for a terminal? |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sun Feb 18 19:22:18 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Feb 18 14:11:46 2018. Ast to why they would use Smith-9th instead of 4th Ave for a terminal? |
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Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by K. Trout on Sun Feb 18 19:38:53 2018, in response to Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by AlM on Sun Feb 18 18:00:27 2018. One thing which comes to mind is that on the Queens side, it's basically a straight shot to 41 Av, whereas a 61 St tunnel would require either a diagonal jog to 41 Av (extra distance + needs to factor in LIRR clearances) or underpinning the Queensbridge Houses. |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by K. Trout on Sun Feb 18 19:50:01 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sun Feb 18 19:22:18 2018. Operationally it's not a bad idea - a layup track and full interlocking give some flexibility for turning maneuvers, and it was typical IND design to include those at midpoints, regardless of the idea to use Smith-9th as a terminal.But as to why they were placed on the viaduct instead of between 4 Av and 7 Av? A mystery. There's nothing particularly attractive about Smith-9th as a terminal - no transfer to go further onward (when the express tracks are used as originally designed - but why build express tracks if your service patterns will never use them?), little residential base to provide consistent ridership, and crews relaying trains and passengers dumped out at the last stop are exposed to the elements. |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by jabrams on Sun Feb 18 20:08:40 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Feb 18 10:05:36 2018. Why would riders on the GG get off at Smith 9th to wait for an F to continue their route when they could have changed at Bergen or Carrol and avoid the outside elements. |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sun Feb 18 20:19:50 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by jabrams on Sun Feb 18 20:08:40 2018. I don't know, but 4th Ave has a transfer to the 4th Ave Bmt. |
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Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 18 22:07:37 2018, in response to Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by AlM on Sun Feb 18 18:00:27 2018. Wikipedia, quoting the You Times, says "The 64th Street site was said to be $5.3 million less expensive, 'because of easier grades and smaller curves.'" |
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Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Feb 19 01:22:49 2018, in response to Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 18 22:07:37 2018. 5.3 million?What a stupid mistake! |
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Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon Feb 19 01:34:16 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by K. Trout on Sat Feb 17 16:37:52 2018. There is a tunnel there now used by the police department as a target range that would have been part of the 76th St tube. |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Feb 19 17:49:22 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Feb 17 20:00:38 2018. Not all IND express stations had Xovers at both ends. 14/8 has none and doesn’t seem to have any provision for them either. I suspect that the reason for the interlocking at 4 Av was due to the presence of the spur track N/O the station which I believe has now been removed. |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Feb 19 17:58:55 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by K. Trout on Sun Feb 18 19:50:01 2018. The Smith St Line isn’t the only line on the NYCTS to have had express tracks built and not have them used for any sort of express service. The Wh Pl Rd line didn’t make use of the center tk till after the West Farms spur was removed and the attempts at express service on both the Astoria and Jerome Lines were unsuccessful. The express tks on those lines as well as the West End Line were provided in case such a service was warranted which it seems was not the case. Very often, the express stops on those lines were close enough together that very little time would be saved by passing the local stations coupled with heavy enough ridership at the local stations that locals on a slightly increased headway to allow express operation would have caused overcrowding on the local trains. |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Feb 19 18:02:33 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by jabrams on Sun Feb 18 20:08:40 2018. If passengers already had seats on the GG it would make sense to keep them till the last point rather than to transfer to the F and stand an additional station or two. |
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Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Feb 19 18:14:18 2018, in response to Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 18 15:44:00 2018. I did a research paper on the 63 St subway when I was in college and interviewed Herbert Mendelsohn founder and chairman of the “Emergency Committee to Stop the 63 St Subway” which changed its name to the “Emergency Committee for Sound Transit Planning.” At the time the Rockefeller Institute’s complaint was the the 63 St location would compromise the delicate equipment there. I’m not sure who at the time had the ultimate responsibility for new subway construction, the city or the NYCTA but I suspect it was the city, but unduly influenced by the cesspool of incompetence that passed and continues to pass for NYCT planning. The 61 St location would have been better for several reasons. It would have provided a better transfer between that branch and the existing lines of the BMT and Lex IRT as well allowing a station to be built at Queens Plaza for better connections to the IRT, BMT and IND. |
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Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Feb 19 18:15:26 2018, in response to Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by Union Tpke on Sun Feb 18 17:35:00 2018. No! See my post. |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Feb 19 18:22:00 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by randyo on Mon Feb 19 17:49:22 2018. That spur was alwaysa mystery to me. Any history? |
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Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Feb 19 18:26:27 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by Edwards! on Mon Feb 19 01:34:16 2018. Not to be confused with that OTHER 76 St. Where exactly it that tunnel you are talking about? |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Feb 19 20:05:01 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by randyo on Mon Feb 19 17:58:55 2018. Ironically, one of the only lines built without the express track (although provision left) is the Jamaica line, and ironically, it's the one that could probably have used it the most. |
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Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Feb 19 22:18:41 2018, in response to Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by randyo on Mon Feb 19 18:14:18 2018. "...as well allowing a station to be built at Queens Plaza..."How would that have been done? New level? And would it have given the G a better place to relay, perhaps? An F station on a lower level with a cross-platform transfer to the G and upstairs connections to the E, M, and R would have worked nicely. |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Feb 19 22:23:59 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by randyo on Mon Feb 19 18:02:33 2018. If I am on an F on Queens Blvd heading for Jamaica Center, I usually ride it to 71/Continental before changing to an E, which tends to be more crowded, even though I could get the same E at Roosevelt Ave. |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by FormerVanWyckBlvdUser on Tue Feb 20 01:56:56 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by randyo on Mon Feb 19 17:49:22 2018. Yes, that spur track between the two express tracks (which I have no idea what it was used for) has been removed. A storage track that was rarely, if ever, used? |
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Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Feb 20 03:06:25 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by Edwards! on Mon Feb 19 01:34:16 2018. this tunnel and its use as a police target range was mentioned in a post sometime in the last year or so IIRC, and that it was supposed to be accessible from a door in the wall along the local tracks between stations that the E & F bypass via the doglegWhat was the position of this provisional tunnel row vis a vis the existing IND tunnel? branching off, another track to one side and then continuing towards the river, or ramping down to a lower tunnel in the same direction? How do the police access this for the shooting range? |
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Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Michael549 on Tue Feb 20 08:47:02 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by AlM on Sat Feb 17 09:29:13 2018. Let's say that you were a passenger on a D train from Brooklyn headed to 23rd Street-Eighth Avenue. You were sleeping on the train and missed the chance to change trains at West 4th Street. In addition you did not want to walk the two blocks from 6th Avenue to Eighth Avenue with a transfer to the Sixth Avenue local train. You could of course change to the E train at 53rd Street-Seventh Avenue for a downtown E train direct to that stop.Now expecting the Planners and builders of the First IND System to have provided a set of cross-over switches to allow D trains from Brooklyn to travel uptown on the Sixth Line, and then at 53rd Street-Seventh Avenue to travel downtown on the Eighth Avenue line is a tall order, bordering upon "not happening." Just an idea. Mike |
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Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Feb 20 09:36:10 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by Michael549 on Tue Feb 20 08:47:02 2018. That is not the scenario I had in mind. I was thinking of a scenario where, either because of an outage or because of more demand from Brooklyn than from the Bronx and Queens, it became desirable to run a train that came in from Brooklyn but then turned around and went back to Brooklyn rather than heading to the Bronx or Queens.When building from scratch it would not have been an absurd idea. Just last Friday B trains were turning around at 96/2 all day. Before the SAS stubway was completed, there would not have been any good place to turn those Bs and they probably would have had to cancel all inbound B subway service from Brooklyn. |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Feb 20 10:53:49 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by FormerVanWyckBlvdUser on Tue Feb 20 01:56:56 2018. Oh... The LION heard that it was used for a mail train. Used to be a regional post office near there.ROAR |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Feb 20 12:04:17 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Mon Feb 19 20:05:01 2018. Yeah, I never understood why users and politicians in the area do not lobby for putting the track in there. |
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Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Michael549 on Tue Feb 20 13:21:29 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by AlM on Tue Feb 20 09:36:10 2018. If you are taking about the case of sending Brooklyn-originating trains (B,D,F) back to Brooklyn, then it would have meant using the 57th Street-Sixth Avenue terminal in the years before the 63rd Street Tunnel.During the day-times, the 57th Street-Sixth Avenue terminal sent Brooklyn originating B trains back to Brooklyn, after 1968. As well as K or Kk trains from Brooklyn. Prior to that there was always the option of emergency turning trains at 59th Street-Columbus Circle. Mike |
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Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Michael549 on Tue Feb 20 13:21:31 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by AlM on Tue Feb 20 09:36:10 2018. If you are taking about the case of sending Brooklyn-originating trains (B,D,F) back to Brooklyn, then it would have meant using the 57th Street-Sixth Avenue terminal in the years before the 63rd Street Tunnel.During the day-times, the 57th Street-Sixth Avenue terminal sent Brooklyn originating B trains back to Brooklyn, after 1968. As well as K or Kk trains from Brooklyn. Prior to that there was always the option of emergency turning trains at 59th Street-Columbus Circle. Mike |
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Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Feb 20 13:32:56 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by Michael549 on Tue Feb 20 13:21:29 2018. So what's your point? For much of the time since 1968 there has been a way to turn trains that come from Brooklyn in Manhattan. But there wasn't before 1968. Why would it have been an inherently bad idea to have had such a capability originally? |
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Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Q4 on Tue Feb 20 14:36:04 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by Express Rider on Tue Feb 20 03:06:25 2018. How is it ventilated? |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 20 16:57:59 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Feb 19 18:22:00 2018. I suspect that it was just put there to provide a layup space either for bad order trains or other non revenue trains like the garbage pickup or money collector to clear the road and avoid blocking service. At one point I remember the rail grinder being laid up there to allow the crew a lunch relief. |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by K. Trout on Tue Feb 20 17:08:14 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by FormerVanWyckBlvdUser on Tue Feb 20 01:56:56 2018. There's spur tracks all over the IND...Clinton-Washington, 2 Av, 72 St, etc. |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 20 17:20:06 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by italianstallion on Tue Feb 20 12:04:17 2018. Unfortunately one of the problems with the way the structure was constructed is that no provision was made for a 2 island platform express station as was done at Myrtle/Wycofff. The same situation existed on 3 tk portions of the Fulton St el so I don’t think anybody really knows where the express stops would have been had the entire Fulton St el been 3 tracked. I can’t understand why at least Woodhaven Blvd and Sutphin Blvd were not designed with express platforms just in case. I doubt it would have been any more expensive to build it that way. The major problem I can see with a Jamaica Line express is what to do on the old portion over Fulton St although moving the platforms to the outside and installing a center track there would not be impossible. The main problem I see if it were done right now is the lack of capacity for an additional service at the current Jamaica Ctr terminal and even the original terminal at 168 St would probably not have been able to additional service very well. Another line that had provisions for a never installed middle tk is the IRT Livonia Av Line but I doubt there would have ever been sufficient demand for an express service there anyhow. |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 20 17:20:37 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Feb 19 22:23:59 2018. Exactly. |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Feb 20 17:34:01 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by italianstallion on Tue Feb 20 12:04:17 2018. A third track? They wanted no tracks. When I lived in Woodhaven in the early 80s, the local politicos wanted the EL ripped down to Crescent St. With the unreliable service (no Z train then) and graffiti covered R-16s & R-30s, and an occasional R-42, the line there was thought of as symbol of crime & blight. Blight being from the structure itself in serious need of a paint job. Thankfully local politicians were unsuccessful.The MTA turned it around. Service improved, shiny new cars, Z train lives,Archer Ave connection completed, ridership went up & the El got its paint job.See, got a problem? Just throw $$$ at it & presto, problem solved.Its the New York way. |
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Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Feb 20 18:18:00 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by Q4 on Tue Feb 20 14:36:04 2018. Sorry - I don't know anything about this space other than what was posted on Subchat several months to a year or so ago. |
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Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 20 18:27:56 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by Express Rider on Tue Feb 20 18:18:00 2018. How accurate was the OP’s information? |
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Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 20 18:34:37 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by Michael549 on Tue Feb 20 08:47:02 2018. The uptown services that go to upper Manhattan and Queens while on the same level (lower) actually go in opposite directions so an Xover between the N/B 6 Av tk would lead a train against traffic on the tk coming from 8 Ave. The downtown services coming from those locations are also on the same level (upper) facing in opposite directions. |
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Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Michael549 on Tue Feb 20 18:42:19 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by AlM on Tue Feb 20 13:32:56 2018. Let's be fair and say that the original planners of the IND subway probably did not envision the current arrangement of southern Brooklyn services, but rather service across South Avenue and the completed plans for the Second System of the IND. That was the thinking behind building the Second Avenue station on the F train in Manhattan.From that point of view having D train like service traveling up Sixth Avenue (from Brooklyn) and then back Eighth Avenue given the arrangements of services that were evenly divided between those two central Manhattan trunk lines. On the old IND map both A, AA, and BB routes serving the westside with BB trains serving Sixth Avenue. This is similar to the CC and D trains, and E and F trains in Queens - pairs that have an Eighth Avenue and Sixth Avenue route. It stands to reason that even under the non-realized plans for the Second Systen that there would have been Sixth and Eighth Avenue pairs. A case for a "loop back" beyond passengers being able to transfer has not been presented. The ability to reverse trains during an emergency is a different order of business than providing a regular route. Mike |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Feb 20 19:01:16 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by randyo on Tue Feb 20 17:20:06 2018. Why were the 3 Jamaica el tracks in the 160's Street blocks off center on the structure ?Wasn't the 168th Street station, like Marcy Avenue, with wooden platforms, to be "temporary" ? |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Feb 20 20:39:15 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by randyo on Tue Feb 20 17:20:06 2018. No need to install 3 tracks on the narrow old portion near Crescent St. The 7 express does just fine even though it has to merge into 2 tracks at QP. The J express can run local a few stops on the 2-track portion, then go express again over Broadway. |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Feb 20 20:39:51 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Feb 20 17:34:01 2018. Yup. |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 20 20:51:44 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by Joe V on Tue Feb 20 19:01:16 2018. There were sections of center tracks at various places along the Jamaica Line and it is true that 168 St like Lefferts were “temporary” with the possibility of both lines being extended father out possibly to a joint terminal in Jamaica. |
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Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue Feb 20 21:55:46 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by randyo on Tue Feb 20 18:34:37 2018. Providing the missing movements at 7 Ave would have been a lot more complicated than a flat map suggests. The nice part is that the useful transfers are always downstairs, which makes them a little easier. |
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Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Feb 20 22:38:28 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by AlM on Tue Feb 20 13:32:56 2018. From November 1967 up until July 1968, B trains from Brooklyn turned at West 4th Street in non-rush hours. Even before the 6th Ave. express tracks opened, tracks may have extended far enough north of W. 4th for a train to relay there, I'm not sure. |
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Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 20 22:50:52 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Feb 20 22:38:28 2018. When Chrystie first opened the express tks on 6 Av were used by rush hour Bs and Ds. Middays and Saturdays, the Bs relayed N/O W4 St and the Ds ran lcl between 34 and W4 St. Although I’m not completely sure, I believe the exp tks on 6 Av were open for a while before Chrystie took place because Chrystie was supposed to open sooner but was delayed for some unknown reason. |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by Ian Lennon on Wed Feb 21 04:38:01 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Feb 20 17:34:01 2018. I was young but remember that stupidity. Thank God they weren't successful. |
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Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Feb 21 09:24:48 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by randyo on Tue Feb 20 18:27:56 2018. I have to admit, I only have what was written in the post as info. so no way can I vouch for any kind of accuracy.Have you heard of any kind of structural provision at all for this original 63rd st. tube diverging from the Queens IND? |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 21 12:11:26 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Feb 20 17:34:01 2018. It was the MTAs idea to remove the Jamaica El,and replace it with bus service.They wanted to redirect the service from the lower level of the Archer subway to the Montauk line. It's was during the era of MTA desired shrinking responsibility. The politically motivated part came from the older residents complaining about the influx of "those people " into supposed quite Hamlet of Richmond Hill. The Archer subway was a trade off of a sorts... No third track... We give you an underground in Jamaica, spruce up the join... Plus an extension to Queens Village. The subway only made it as far as downtown, and not as far as the old terminal. Hell of a trade off. |
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