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| (1466421) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 21 12:16:39 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by Express Rider on Wed Feb 21 09:24:48 2018. No.There is a line map of the original Queens Blvd subway routing at the Queens Public Library Merrick Blvd branch. It basically shows the planned second system route and other branches. |
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Jamaica EL/Archer Subway |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Feb 21 12:51:33 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 21 12:11:26 2018. That may be, but it was in retrospect a mistake doing it that way. Had the full EL to 168 been kept and those who had motives that were not known at the time (i.e.: Moving a lot of Queens business to Manhattan because some department stores didn't want to be associated with a certain kind of people shopping in them for example) been listened to, today I suspect we would have seen the Jamaica EL extended, possibly taking over what is the current LIRR station at Belmont Park for a terminal. |
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Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Feb 21 12:53:00 2018, in response to Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by K. Trout on Sun Feb 18 11:19:21 2018. That makes MUCH more sense!! That tunnel would have been very useful now, especially if it were done in addition to 53rd and 63rd. |
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Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Feb 21 12:56:04 2018, in response to Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by TUNNELRAT on Sun Feb 18 15:14:33 2018. I remember that being mentioned before as well. |
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Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Feb 21 13:02:26 2018, in response to Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Feb 19 22:18:41 2018. That would definitely have worked. If you could have built a lower level of Queens Plaza, that might have turned it into more of a West 4th Complex though you would not have the Queensbridge stop I believe. |
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Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Wed Feb 21 13:09:56 2018, in response to Jamaica EL/Archer Subway, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Feb 21 12:51:33 2018. According to literature I have read, it was the large business owners on Jamaica Avenue (Macy's, Gertz, et al) who wanted the elevated removed. They closed because once the elevated was gone, the people who lived in adjacent neighborhoods such as Woodhaven and Richmond Hill no longer had their convenient single-seat ride to the Jamaica Avenue shopping centers and would now have to drive there or take a slowpoke bus. In retrospect, the business owners screwed up a good thing.I don't think the business owners' motives were racial. The money of minorities is just as green as everyone else's. |
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Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Wed Feb 21 13:28:42 2018, in response to Jamaica EL/Archer Subway, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Feb 21 12:51:33 2018. The Jamaica el extended to Belmont? oh pah-lease. |
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| (1466435) | |
Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Wed Feb 21 13:29:55 2018, in response to Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway, posted by Mitch45 on Wed Feb 21 13:09:56 2018. You are absolutely correct. |
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| (1466437) | |
Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Feb 21 13:53:39 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 21 12:11:26 2018. "It was the MTAs idea to remove the Jamaica El,and replace it with bus service."That would have been a freekin disaster. Jamaica Ave traffic crawls as it is. Its narrow & plagued with double parked cars & trucks. "... older residents complaining about the influx of "those people " into supposed quite Hamlet of Richmond Hill." I lived in Woodhaven (91-41-98 ST) from 1980-85 & fairly active in the community. The big issue with the EL removal was real estate speculation and not a mention of "those people" (whoever they are) invading the neighborhood. They fanticized at the time that Jamaica Ave would be another 2nd or 3rd Ave in Manhattan real estate wise. Property owners guesses that realty prices would go thru the roof if the EL did a Houdini. Bottom line, the EL stayed & real estate values went up anyway. The kids sold the property their parents handed down to them and cashed in...big time. |
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Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Feb 21 14:37:48 2018, in response to Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway, posted by Mitch45 on Wed Feb 21 13:09:56 2018. The incompetence of NYCTA planning rears its ugly head again. In other situations (the SAS excepted) a subway that was intended to replace an el was in place before the el was demolished. The extension of the A Line to Lefferts is a good example of that. Instead of setting up the connection from the Jamaica el structure to be hooked up while the el was still in operation, the planners decided to get fancy and design the connection so that it couldn’t be built unless and until the existing structure was completely removed. |
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| (1466442) | |
Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Feb 21 14:39:09 2018, in response to Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Wed Feb 21 13:28:42 2018. It was not the BMT Jamaica line that was supposed to be extended farther but the IND line. |
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Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Feb 21 14:47:58 2018, in response to Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by TUNNELRAT on Sun Feb 18 15:14:33 2018. Interesting. But Rockefeller University runs north from 63rd St., it's not at 61st St. Did they want to measure the effects of the tunneling, rather than avoid it? Or do they have an off-campus seismograph at 61st St? |
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| (1466445) | |
Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Feb 21 14:50:38 2018, in response to Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Feb 21 14:47:58 2018. OK, I should have read Spider-Pig's comment before posting this. 63rd was chosen rather than 64th because of the seismograph. |
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| (1466447) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Feb 21 14:55:42 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by Express Rider on Wed Feb 21 09:24:48 2018. If there had ever been any sort of Transit Police facility in that area, it would have likely been removed when the ramps were extended to 57/6. The ramps were built as part of the original 6 Av Line infrastructure most likely for connection to the SAS through Central Pk but at a location farther uptown than 63 St. |
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| (1466451) | |
Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Feb 21 15:08:09 2018, in response to Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Feb 21 13:02:26 2018. If 61 St had been chosen, Queensbridge would probably not have been necessary. |
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Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Feb 21 15:15:28 2018, in response to Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Feb 19 22:18:41 2018. Diverting the G tracks to a lower level does not sound simple. I'm wondering if, instead, the new station could have served as a passageway between Queens Plaza and Queensboro Plaza stations. |
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| (1466457) | |
Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 21 15:48:35 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Feb 21 13:53:39 2018. I'm quite familiar with what happened.After the boom, they were pretty happy with the situation as far as keeping the direct route to lower Manhattan and other places. Also, you might want to recall the Archie Bunker/George Jefferson types wanting to keep certain ethnic groups out of the Woodhaven etc nabs. It's was one of the prime reasons why the Montauk/Rockway lines wasn't cconverted to subway use. Granted, things have changed despite those sentiments for the better, but because of all that Nimby money fighting against everything coming down the pike.. We are still stuck with the limited capacity we had when the line opened, with less service TA boot. |
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| (1466458) | |
Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 21 15:55:49 2018, in response to Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway, posted by randyo on Wed Feb 21 14:39:09 2018. Yes it was.The Second system had the El traveling much further into Eastern Queens, even connecting to the planned Liberty ave El extension. The Plan for Action proposal had the J line built as a subway, then shared space on the LIRR Mainline as far as Queens Village. The Phase One terminal was suppose to be Merrick Blvd, not Parsons. |
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| (1466459) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 21 16:34:10 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by randyo on Wed Feb 21 14:55:42 2018. 61 St.. Then east to 2nd Ave... Then north to the Bronx,163rd st and the Lafayette St subway to Throngs Neck... |
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| (1466472) | |
Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Feb 21 17:28:38 2018, in response to Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway, posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 21 15:55:49 2018. That’s not the same thing either I or the OP was talking about. I’m well aware of proposals to extend both the Liberty Av and Jamaica els farther out which is why both had “temporary” wooden platforms instead of the concrete platforms characteristic of most of the BMT East. The plans for the Archer Av subway were the ones that called for the upper (IND) level to be extended out to Springfield Blvd generated circa 1970. |
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| (1466473) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Feb 21 17:29:59 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 21 16:34:10 2018. Weren't there plans for a subway across 76 St (Manhattan) to connect to the IND near Steinway St? |
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| (1466474) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Wed Feb 21 17:39:40 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 21 12:16:39 2018. Where in the Library? |
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| (1466477) | |
Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Feb 21 17:48:38 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by Edwards! on Wed Feb 21 12:11:26 2018. No. The lower level tracks were pointed straight down the Atlantic Branch just east of the 2 curves. I remember during its construction seeing the end of the tunnel its end opened. |
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| (1466478) | |
Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Feb 21 17:51:37 2018, in response to Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway, posted by Mitch45 on Wed Feb 21 13:09:56 2018. It lead to their own demise. Macy's and Gertz - gone. Archer Avenue subway a block south - lives, albeit not as far east.In 3rd grade, we took a class trip from the 102nd Street (via now demolished mezzanine) to 160th Street on the "15" train to sit on Santa's lap in one of those stores. |
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| (1466479) | |
Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Feb 21 17:53:25 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Feb 21 13:53:39 2018. I lived at 86-04 94th Street from 1958 to 1969. |
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| (1466488) | |
Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Feb 21 19:11:37 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by italianstallion on Tue Feb 20 20:39:15 2018. I suppose a train from Jamaica could do an overtake of a local by the time it reaches the first curve. They can skip-stop down Fulton Street as now. The girders run down the center track way all or most of the way from the end of the Crescent St siding to Jamaica Ave, left over from pre-1917 terminal. |
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| (1466489) | |
Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Feb 21 19:12:13 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by randyo on Tue Feb 20 20:51:44 2018. 111th STreet. |
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| (1466498) | |
Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by VictorM on Wed Feb 21 20:03:41 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by Joe V on Wed Feb 21 17:48:38 2018. It's the upper level tracks at Parsons/Archer that turn south down 160 St towards the Atlantic Branch. The lower level tracks continue straight ahead down Archer Av for about a train length. J trains are stored there. |
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Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Feb 21 20:29:22 2018, in response to Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway, posted by Mitch45 on Wed Feb 21 13:09:56 2018. I doubt it as well, however, I had read there were motives in there that they were hoping to drive out certain customers in favor of others who (at least in their mind) would spend considerably more money that had stopped shopping at such stores. That backfired big-time, especially failing to take into account major changes in many areas that had been happening, and especially after the 1977 blackout and so forth. The mistakes made were huge on that front. |
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Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Feb 21 20:41:04 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by randyo on Wed Feb 21 17:29:59 2018. The Steinway st. area was what I meant originally, if I correctly understood the earlier post, the reference was to a police range location in Manhattan?I meant that sometime a year or more ago, someone posted that there was some kind of provision for a tunnel continuing to Manhattan off the Steinway st. tunnel structure, accessible by a door along the catwalk between one of the stations on the local tracks that the E & F bypass. And that this structure, in Queens, was now used as a police range. I had no more info. from what was written in the post. Wondering if there is indeed some kind of diverging tunnel structure diverging off the local tracks. If this was what people already responded to (i.e. Queens) then I'll go back and re-read the earlier posts. (sorry if this is indeed redundant) |
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Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Feb 21 21:34:24 2018, in response to Jamaica EL/Archer Subway, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Feb 21 12:51:33 2018. They could have saved a lot of money, had the MTA just built the "E" subway extension just to Sutphin/Archer. All they had to do was to build an elevator/escalator transfer between the Jamaica el station and a new subway station for the "E" at Queens Blvd-Jamaica Ave. |
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Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by K. Trout on Wed Feb 21 21:52:51 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by randyo on Wed Feb 21 17:29:59 2018. A Steinway/76th tunnel was what I was originally referring to which started this whole discussion; I have also heard the story that there's a firing range in the bellmouth on the Queens side. |
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Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Feb 21 22:46:21 2018, in response to Re: Proposed tracks to Queens from Midtown Manhattan, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Feb 21 15:15:28 2018. I know-- I probably spent another half a billion dollars with that post. |
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Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 22 08:13:26 2018, in response to Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Feb 21 20:29:22 2018. No. It wasn't to "drive out particular customers". Els were seen as blight, and by removing such, they thought they area would look better thus attracting customers. Obviously though that was wrong, as it cut off the foot traffic.At the time, downtowns were dying all over the place. Not just Jamaica. |
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Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 22 09:06:56 2018, in response to Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 22 08:13:26 2018. Wasn't the Queens Boro Presdient Donald Manus, who later committed suicide, apart of the political drive for early demolition of the Jamaica El ? |
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Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway |
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Posted by Q4 on Thu Feb 22 09:32:56 2018, in response to Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Feb 21 21:34:24 2018. The perception that El Structures as being seen as blight by some and their opposition is why they stopped building them (even though more El structures were planned for the second system, even without the WAR effort, it would have been tough to build), why even if the Jamaica El had remained, it would have never been extended despite Wallyhouse's post and why the N train won't get extended from its current Queens terminal to LaGuardia.As Randyo said they could have planned it better where the El was kept in operation until they were ready to put the Archer Ave service in operation the way they did with the A connection to Lefferts however I don't think they had that options and the politicos and the people pulling their strings wanted the El to go as soon as possible and didn't want to wait. As for only building the "E" subway extension just to Sutphin/Archer and leaving up the Jamaica El with a E station at Queens Blvd - Jamaica Ave., leaving up the El structure was not what the politico's and their handlers in Queens wanted. Add the fact that once completed (or nearly completed), the TA decided they didn't want to open the extension is whole other story in this saga. |
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Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 22 10:01:06 2018, in response to Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway, posted by Q4 on Thu Feb 22 09:32:56 2018. That was in an era that even Chicago was de-empaphsizing the L in the Loop. I think one side of it had no service on Sundays. It wasn't until around 1999 or 2000 that Ravenswood trains ran at all to downtown Saturday evenings and Sunday. |
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Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Feb 22 11:46:34 2018, in response to Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway, posted by Mitch45 on Wed Feb 21 13:09:56 2018. This was the subject of a paper written during the early 90s, which stated same - that once an el structure was removed, ironically the area it formerly served, now being without direct transit, could become an area that would lose its some or almost all of its significant business district, due to increased difficult accessibility (both foot traffic, bus and automobile) and in the long run, potentially end of up as a blighted neighborhood/area of the kind that the shortsighted parties said were trying to avoid when they called for an el structure's removal. |
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| (1466541) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Feb 22 11:54:01 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by K. Trout on Wed Feb 21 21:52:51 2018. yep. that's what I was referring to. where would the bellmouth be than? and, it would have to be a pretty lengthy structure (not just a turnout) if it was being used as a firing range. |
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| (1466544) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Feb 22 12:00:21 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by Express Rider on Wed Feb 21 20:41:04 2018. Oh, the ambiguity of my responze.... my mistake....re your post: there had ever been any sort of Transit Police facility in that area, it would have likely been removed when the ramps were extended to 57/6. my response: if I correctly understood the earlier post, the reference was to a police range location in Manhattan? should have read: if I correctly understood your previous post |
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| (1466548) | |
Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 22 12:28:34 2018, in response to Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway, posted by Express Rider on Thu Feb 22 11:46:34 2018. I wrote a 2-page composition for a college freshman year English class saying as much - took the ability away to get there and shop. The professor liked it. |
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| (1466552) | |
Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Feb 22 12:49:00 2018, in response to Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway, posted by Express Rider on Thu Feb 22 11:46:34 2018. I've seen similar things said of streetcars/trams/light-rail. If there is a question about whether to build a street-running line with tracks as opposed to an elevated/underground line, it can be better to go with the former. Bonus points if the surface line is given priority at intersections, or kept away from other traffic. Even with the slower ride, with stops closer together and lots of grade crossings, such stops and street-level running make the route more accessible and thus more popular. Also, people see, from the vehicle, the shops that they may be potentially patronize.Obviously, there is a limit to that. If the main priority is to move very large amounts of people through many miles of congested streets quickly, then elevated/underground is the way to go. |
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Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue |
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Posted by GIS Man on Thu Feb 22 13:11:59 2018, in response to Re: Smith-9th Streets/4th Avenue, posted by K. Trout on Sat Feb 17 16:43:41 2018. The free transfer between the 4th Avenue and 9th Street stations was opened on the very day that the Culver was cut back to a shuttle between 9th Av. and Ditmas Av. Prior to that day there was Culver service to/from Chambers St. weekdays and 36th St. all other times.Bob |
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Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 22 13:28:44 2018, in response to Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Feb 22 12:49:00 2018. Denver has those free 16th Street mall buses. |
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| (1466565) | |
Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Feb 22 14:20:07 2018, in response to Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway, posted by Joe V on Thu Feb 22 09:06:56 2018. He was also one of the old timers who kept the Bypass from being built, along with the Jamaica Queens Village and South Jamaica extension.His corruption was legendary. |
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| (1466566) | |
Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Feb 22 14:21:57 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by randyo on Wed Feb 21 17:29:59 2018. Exactly. That's what we were referring to. |
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Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Feb 22 14:23:34 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by Express Rider on Wed Feb 21 20:41:04 2018. No... You were correct in your assumptions. |
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Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Feb 22 14:25:32 2018, in response to Re: Tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, posted by N6 Limited on Wed Feb 21 17:39:40 2018. Merrick Blvd, across from the 165th St bus terminal. |
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Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 22 14:25:57 2018, in response to Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway, posted by Joe V on Wed Feb 21 17:51:37 2018. Well Gertz, the whole chain closed. |
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Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Feb 22 14:44:02 2018, in response to Re: Jamaica EL/Archer Subway, posted by randyo on Wed Feb 21 17:28:38 2018. The lower level too. |
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