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| Re: May 11, 1975. . .Try a new a new theory (428152) | |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .Try a new a new theory |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon May 14 12:21:37 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .Try a new a new theory, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon May 14 12:20:34 2007. Oh, I see, sorry. |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .Try a new a new theory |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon May 14 12:44:47 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .Try a new a new theory, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon May 14 11:27:55 2007. "I often wonder if the demolition of this el was DESIGNED to destroy Jamaica and force it's shoppers elsewhere, like Green Acres, which had a brand new Macy's IIRC."That might make sense as a motivation for Macy's to push for demolishing the El. If thatwere the case, and if we assume that many other merchants in the area were less politically savvy (ie more naive), Macy's, Gertz and a couple of others could have sold the merchants some bullshit story, promised them (whatever empty promise) to get them to sign on to an effort to convince the TA to rip down the El faster. Having gotten the merchants together on this effort, signing on the dotted line, here's where the TA chairman, being an ex-Macy executive, is synpathetic and helps seal the deal. There's no way he could do that by himself or just with Macy's behind it, but if a majority on Jamaica Av said "do it" and told dissenting merchants to "stfu" then the local elected officials would say "we have a consensus here" and gave MTA the green light. That would be a plausible chain of events. "Racism also played a minor role, IMHO. Jamaica became more and more black through the 1960's." Agreed. |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon May 14 12:48:22 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by MJF on Mon May 14 10:33:53 2007. Yet they did. The KEY is that MACY'S LIED ABOUT IT'S INTENTIONS. They helped Macy's because there was somethiung else in it for them. They had no clue Macy's was going to pull out. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon May 14 12:49:22 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon May 14 11:05:21 2007. When you go back to school and learn something about retailing, then we'll tal;k again.Better yet, read the Harvard Business Review's retailing articles. Then you won't sound so foolish. |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon May 14 12:50:06 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon May 14 11:00:23 2007. Agreed it was very very bad. |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon May 14 12:50:52 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon May 14 11:04:12 2007. May's as in May Co.? May Co. was really big in Los Angeles in the 1970s-80s. |
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| (429823) | |
Re: M Train in Brooklyn (Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by E Line Fan on Mon May 14 13:02:42 2007, in response to Re: M Train in Brooklyn (Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon May 14 12:19:44 2007. Chris GP38/R42: I think Broad Street during middays has to do with the (J) terminating there and possibly ridership. I think ridership and the station locations in lower Manhattan are why Broad and Fulton Streets also are closed weekends. |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by MJF on Mon May 14 13:13:38 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by RonInBayside on Mon May 14 12:50:52 2007. J.W. Mays. They had a large store in downtown Jamaica and another large store in Glen Oaks. Similar in class to S. Klein. |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .Try a new a new theory |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Mon May 14 13:18:57 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .Try a new a new theory, posted by RonInBayside on Mon May 14 12:44:47 2007. Still don't know the difference between the TA and the MTA, I see. Yunich wasn't chair of the New York City Transit Authority. |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon May 14 13:25:44 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by MJF on Mon May 14 13:13:38 2007. Thank you. |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .Try a new a new theory |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon May 14 13:26:43 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .Try a new a new theory, posted by David of Broadway on Mon May 14 13:18:57 2007. Good thing I have you to keep track of that. :0) |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by MJF on Mon May 14 13:32:35 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by RonInBayside on Mon May 14 12:48:22 2007. It would seem that something underhanded would have to have happened. I guess the conspiriacy theory can hold water in this case. About who was MTA chairman and where he was previously employed. |
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Re: The (M) and the (QB) Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by E Line Fan on Mon May 14 13:33:59 2007, in response to Re: The (M) and the (QB) Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon May 14 11:18:22 2007. Thanks, Chris R16/R2730. In The Number, Letter And Color Codes FAQ, Mr. Brennan lists the (QJ) through 1976 and in "They Moved The Millions", Mr. Davis has a photo of a Broad Street bound R1-9 (QJ) at Cresent Street in 1976. Thanks also for confirming with Edwards! that I was three years too early on the (M). Both of you are correct on 1973. :) |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon May 14 13:44:21 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by MJF on Sun May 13 21:21:59 2007. Was the Jamaica Macy's customer base suburban? Chances are most of their customer base was arriving by public tranportation, bus or subway. Why eliminate their way of getting to the store?Jamaica was one of two major shopping hubs for Queens residents until the late 1950's. (Herald Square was the other). Macy's-Jamaica featured free roof top parking, for its more affluent customers. Alexanders radically changed the dynamic by locating its first Queens store in Rego Park in the late 1950's. It was very successful. Macy's followed suit with a store on Queens Blvd in Elmhurst in the early 1960's. This was followed by Queens Center, with two big box stores, also in the early 1960's. This shifted shopping away from the Jamaica hub for the new post war high population corridor along Queens Blvd from Broadway/Grand Avenue to Union Tpk. Business suffered in the Jamaica hub, as a result. The die was cast by the early 1970's. The big stores decided consolidate their Queens operations to the new Elmhurst/Rego Park hub. They were not staying regardless of whether the El stayed, came down or was replaced by the Archer Ave subway. However, the Jamaica hub had dozens of smaller stores that could still lure bargain seeking customers. The only way the big stores could stop the comparison shopping habit was to kill the easy access for the Jamaica hub's remaining customer base. |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon May 14 13:45:56 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by MJF on Mon May 14 13:32:35 2007. I never said that the MTA chair had nothing to do with it. MTA managers did not want to take the El down, but MTA chair Yunich could argue for it if he was responding to a consensus in the community. If that consensus was achieved through subterfuge, oh well.It would be easy for apologists for some of the merchants to point to Macy's and say "It's Macy's fault." And that is partially true, but does not remove their own complicity. "I was a moron for asking the TA to take the El down," is a hard pill to swallow, especially when it leads to your own bankruptcy. Much easier to blame someone else. |
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November 1, 1918 Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by E Line Fan on Mon May 14 13:50:21 2007, in response to Re: The (M) and the (QB) Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon May 14 11:11:21 2007. November 1, 1918: The worst disaster ever occurred on the Brighton Line. The Brighton Beach Local-Express with wooden el cars under motorman Edward Luciano, conductor Micheal Turner and train guard Samuel Rosoff at Malbone Street near Consumer's Park Station during the evening rush hour. |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon May 14 13:51:54 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon May 14 13:44:21 2007. That makes some sense as a motivation for Macy's to close the Jamaica store. On the other hand, they might have lost a certain percentage of "ethnic" customers, but Macy's wouldn't have cared about that.My parents shopped at Alexanders a lot, usually going by car (a white 1959 Peuguot 403 sedan with a sunroofand crank for the engine). |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .Try a new a new theory |
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Posted by David of Broadway on Mon May 14 13:58:59 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .Try a new a new theory, posted by RonInBayside on Mon May 14 13:26:43 2007. Perhaps you could make better sense of the issues -- and readers could make better sense of your posts -- if you bothered to keep the distinction between the two agencies in mind. |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .Try a new a new theory |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon May 14 14:07:32 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .Try a new a new theory, posted by David of Broadway on Mon May 14 13:58:59 2007. It is important to understand what is a trivial fact and what is not,in the context of the discussion.It is your inability to distinguish trivial from significant that limits the kinds of discussions you can make contributions to. If I want to know which train can get to which tower or what timing light, I might ask you. Whioch line is running R32s today - I might ask you. Anything else, you don't have a clue. |
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Re: Increasing QB capacity |
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Posted by Rail Blue on Mon May 14 14:25:34 2007, in response to Re: Increasing QB capacity, posted by AlM on Mon May 14 09:39:36 2007. In other contexts, it definitely irritates me when people say things are impossible just because they are politically very difficult. The best example is Metro North access to Penn after ESA is done. Yes, it's politically very tricky. But as the west side gets more developed an increasing number of NY constituents really want it, which may be enough of an impetus for the MTA to make it happen.It also has slight physical problems (e.g. that rubbish bridge at Spuyten Duyvil). |
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Re: Increasing QB capacity |
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Posted by AlM on Mon May 14 15:32:05 2007, in response to Re: Increasing QB capacity, posted by Rail Blue on Mon May 14 14:25:34 2007. "It also has slight physical problems (e.g. that rubbish bridge at Spuyten Duyvil). "Sure Hudson Line to Penn has issues. There's no 3rd rail in Manhattan either, and in Penn the LIRR 3rd rail doesn't work for MNRR trains. But NH line to Penn doesn't have those issues. It's a piece of cake EXCEPT for the organizational problems. They've even just made New Rochelle more conducive to trains crossing over. |
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Re: The (M) and the (QB) Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by randyo on Mon May 14 16:04:25 2007, in response to Re: The (M) and the (QB) Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon May 14 11:13:25 2007. When Chrystie St first started, the MTA had not yet taken over the NYCTA. |
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Re: Increasing QB capacity |
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Posted by Railman718 on Mon May 14 17:09:04 2007, in response to Re: Increasing QB capacity, posted by AlM on Mon May 14 06:53:34 2007. In some places they make sense yes and in some places they dont. |
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Re: Increasing QB capacity |
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Posted by Railman718 on Mon May 14 17:13:47 2007, in response to Re: Increasing QB capacity, posted by David of Broadway on Mon May 14 09:47:42 2007. Being "available" and "are" again is different..Whats in the Rule book is whats in the rule Book thats all that Matters. You can debate until you are blue in the face bottom line its us(RTO people) who have to follow them.. Thats all that matter PC debates are intersting but some of the times (especially in RTO) thats not reality. |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .Try a new a new theory |
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Posted by David on Mon May 14 17:45:41 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .Try a new a new theory, posted by David of Broadway on Mon May 14 13:18:57 2007. Actually, he was. The MTA Chairman is also Chairman of all of MTA's constituent agencies, just as the MTA Board is the Board of Directors of all of the constituent agencies.David |
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Re: The (M) and the (QB) Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon May 14 18:08:15 2007, in response to Re: The (M) and the (QB) Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon May 14 11:11:21 2007. Brighton Franklin service continued to operate untill the early 60's. |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon May 14 18:13:23 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by MJF on Mon May 14 13:13:38 2007. Don't forget the store on Downtown Fulton st. |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon May 14 18:38:14 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon May 14 11:00:23 2007. No question..it was beat down..I had the "pleasure" of riding it a few times before it closed for good..and to me,the line looked more like the Jamaica El over Fulton st.. True..it did need plenty of work..even the TA said it would cost big bucks to upgrade it to SUBWAY standards...along with new rolling stock[the R39].. But I have often wondered WHY it was unable to operate steel equipment..as it LOOKED like it could handle them AND the Fulton El had the STANDARDS running over it for years. Was it KEPT in such a state,so the TA could find a easy excuse to destroy it? Questions like these will never get answered,due to the people responsible being long gone...but in any case..an connection Could have been built to Manhattan by building a portal next to Flatbush/Myrtle avenue's from the BMT Subway. There is no question that it removal was a mistake...effectively tossing hundreds of riders on the 54 bus. With no other options available..most now either rider the bus, walk to the G train,or walk to the J/M/Z at Broadway. |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by J trainloco on Mon May 14 18:42:07 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by Edwards! on Mon May 14 18:38:14 2007. There is no question that it removal was a mistake...effectively tossing hundreds of riders on the 54 bus.The 54 is not the most crowded bus along the east west corridor in that area. Considering present day levels of crowding on the 54, it doesn't merit a subway. |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon May 14 18:52:37 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by J trainloco on Mon May 14 18:42:07 2007. Yes.The headways have been extended so much in recent times..that riders are looking for other means of getting around.. Bus bunching..missing buses...buses making short turns[at flatbush].. Service is horrible..so much so that I really don't blame anyone for looking at other means of transportation. In any case..this is exactly what you do if you want to chase riders away. Replace a elevated with a bus line...with headways really tight.. Gradually increase the headways to every 10-20 minutes or more..with night service every hour. Watch the rider go away in droves. Third Avenue[BX55] riders know the deal. |
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Re: The (M) and the (QB) Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by subfan on Mon May 14 19:00:41 2007, in response to Re: The (M) and the (QB) Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by Edwards! on Mon May 14 18:08:15 2007. Correct, but it no longer ran over the Fulton El once the connection to DeKalb was put in.subfan |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon May 14 19:14:57 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by RonInBayside on Mon May 14 13:51:54 2007. So, we have motive and opportunity. |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon May 14 20:08:49 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon May 14 19:14:57 2007. We have motive and opportunity if we dupe the rest of the merchants to go along. This assumes that the plot is in fact, the way it happened. If so, obviously they did go along.Spilled milk now. |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by J trainloco on Mon May 14 20:37:04 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by Edwards! on Mon May 14 18:52:37 2007. Service is horrible..so much so that I really don't blame anyone for looking at other means of transportation.Service is substantially better than the 69, 61 and 57, the other buses I live near. |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by trains61 on Mon May 14 20:57:31 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by J trainloco on Mon May 14 18:42:07 2007. As Edwards says, "They chased all the riders away with horrible service." Folks complained even before demolition started, but all to no avail.The whole point of this thread should be, "Don`t tear down stuff until the new service/Subway is built." The Culver, Mrytle Ave, 3rd Ave.(Man&Bx) are prime examples. Never demolish infrastruture. It is too hard to get poltical sanctions, funding, environmental clearance etc. for replacement. Will we ever learn..... |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by MJF on Mon May 14 21:19:52 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by RonInBayside on Mon May 14 20:08:49 2007. Spilled milk, yes, but apparently the theory is not to be poo-pooed. |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon May 14 22:20:45 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by trains61 on Mon May 14 20:57:31 2007. You're 100% right. |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Mon May 14 22:23:51 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by MJF on Mon May 14 21:19:52 2007. It is important that this kind of thing not happen again. To its credit, MTA is taking pretty good care of the subways these days, though you guys have pointed out crappy conditions in certain stations. |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by Ian Lennon on Mon May 14 22:48:13 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun May 13 16:00:44 2007. Yup. We were stuck with HBO, and WHT. Funky antenna on roof, and box on TV. |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by (X) 2nd Avenue Local on Mon May 14 22:56:38 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat May 12 13:08:12 2007. There's water leakage on the Manhattan platform, and some of the lighting on the platform is out, so there are temporary incandescent-like bulbs. Being that this is my home station I am not pleased at the condition 21st Street has fallen in during the last few months. |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by ntrainride on Mon May 14 23:50:05 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by J trainloco on Sun May 13 23:48:28 2007. "...choose the E over the J/Z because it serves midtown, AND downtown"Yeah, whatever...I'm a BMT man at heart. That's the way I prefer to enter Manhattan. I love the Broadway subway, Nassau Street line, Whitehall Street station, Union Square, Chambers Street station. Shoot, IND never hosted a scheduled LIRR service. The connections to IRT and other BMT services is sufficient unto the day as far as traveling to work and play. I even like transferring. It's an emotional, Brooklyn-centric outlook, sure. To me, riding the J train into the City "feels" better than riding the E. I can deal with the F train but that's because it too goes to Brooklyn. |
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Re: Increasing QB capacity |
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Posted by JohnL on Tue May 15 00:28:39 2007, in response to Re: Increasing QB capacity, posted by Fytton on Mon May 14 09:33:32 2007. In this case, since we’re talking about fumigation, all it takes is a rule change, and designation of some trackage as “revenue”.As far as the costs/liability are concerned, again all it takes is one extra Train Operator who gets on at the back of the train as it leaves the terminus station. He/she becomes the Train Operator for the same train as it makes its return journey. The displaced Operator runs the next train out. Not difficult. |
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Re: Increasing QB capacity |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue May 15 02:57:19 2007, in response to Re: Increasing QB capacity, posted by AlM on Mon May 14 09:39:36 2007. Another could be thru-running between NJT with MNRR and the LIRR. |
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Re: Increasing QB capacity |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue May 15 02:58:53 2007, in response to Re: Increasing QB capacity, posted by AMoreira81 on Mon May 14 09:56:39 2007. How do you bust the union? Hire scabs to run the trains? Does Malbone Street sound familiar? |
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Re: May 11, 1975. . .Try a new a new theory |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue May 15 03:12:12 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .Try a new a new theory, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon May 14 10:00:29 2007. shouldn't this thread be renamed "Oct 10 1977..." by now? |
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Re: M Train in Brooklyn (Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue May 15 03:18:23 2007, in response to Re: M Train in Brooklyn (Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by Mr. D - TYPE on Mon May 14 08:23:03 2007. Nassau St is underutilized because it doesn't go where most people want to go. If they can connect it to the SAS, your plan would have some merit but people would still prefer Sixth Avenue. |
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The Jamaica El and subway replacement |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue May 15 05:09:57 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat May 12 12:40:05 2007. Someone had to change the subject on this:It is amazing to think how different politics really were in New York in the '70s. Some of these people were either absolutely stupid or truly had other motives in wanting the Jamaica El shut down in 1977 like it was. |
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Weekend additions of CPW service |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue May 15 05:16:15 2007, in response to Re: May 11, 1975. . .End of the Culver shuttle, posted by AMoreira81 on Sat May 12 23:47:25 2007. This I do agree on:The B train could perhaps be turned into a seven-day-a-week train in Manhattan and run with the C on CPW to 168th street, at least between 7:00 AM and 10:00 PM. |
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Re: Weekend additions of CPW service (adding) |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue May 15 05:20:34 2007, in response to Weekend additions of CPW service, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue May 15 05:16:15 2007. Forgot to add:That would be on weekends only. During the week, it would remain as is, perhaps with additional service during non-rush hours to 168th street if it's not already doing that. |
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Re: Increasing QB capacity |
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Posted by Railman718 on Tue May 15 06:25:46 2007, in response to Re: Increasing QB capacity, posted by SMAZ on Tue May 15 02:58:53 2007. Thats VERY funny...Its bad enough that people cant opearate decent with 4 to 5 months of training.. To just let anybody get in a cab and go is just asking for all kinds of drama.. Im sure some people can get in a cab give a train power and go.. Now stoppin that train(where when how) is another matter... |
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