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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Aug 1 16:09:03 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Jul 31 16:32:26 2016. Elkeeper, Tunnelrat, and Bronx Boy,Thanks for the details of these shuttle operations! Express Rider |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Aug 1 16:11:47 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by K. Trout on Mon Aug 1 01:38:46 2016. the IRT astoria shuttle w/susbway cars I mentioned was temporary at the beginning of 1917 - operated until Flushing IRT service operned from GC to Alburtis ave. in April & 2nd ave. el Qnsbro. service began in July. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Aug 1 16:14:47 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Jul 31 16:38:45 2016. RandyO posted info. about this several months or so back as well.IIRC, service was done by the E train. I found this very interesting since I didn't know when the lower level was finished/put into service (wondered whether it was 12/1940 6th ave. opening or earlier. This answers my question.;) |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Aug 1 16:23:12 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Jul 31 22:02:59 2016. Thanks! Did not know this history before.A Frank Pfuler picture he emailed out showed the Fulton St. el's ferry terminal, and in addition, showed this terminal for the old main line el, kind of in the right background of the photo. In the ERA publication, Tracks above Brooklyn (correct title?) there is a photo of this original old main line two track route, on the right (north) side (manhattan bound approach ramp) of the Brooklyn Bridge after it left the ferry terminal going east. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Aug 1 16:50:53 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by randyo on Mon Aug 1 13:10:01 2016. a former elderly neighbor of mine, remembered culver service when it was exclusively el trains.I have a photo, bought at an NY Div. meeting of a BU gate car train arriving at Coney Island terminal. The ads on the buildings probably put it sometime during the 50s so this may have been one of those rush hour el car shuttles due to BMT's equipment shortage (I've read of this before.) I also saw a photo at a NY Div meeting that IIRC was a train of C-types at the Avenue U station on the Culver line. This must have been the service you wrote about above. Unfortunately, I did not buy this photo. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Aug 1 18:12:24 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Jul 31 20:56:36 2016. :) There is a clip of this on Roger Arcara's old Brooklyn els video. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 1 20:24:02 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Express Rider on Mon Aug 1 18:12:24 2016. Yea, I saw that one. The BMT had some low ridership shuttles; Bay Ridge and Navy St-Fulton Ferry come to mind. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 1 20:32:01 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Express Rider on Mon Aug 1 16:23:12 2016. According to what i read in the brooklyn Eagle, the Old Main Line Ferry closed in 1904 when the combined daily revenues for the stations dropped below $70. By the way, they closed it like they did the Park Ave section of the Old Main Line in 1889. Told everyone it was for repairs and then said the repair cost wasn't worth it for a lightly patronized line. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 1 20:38:43 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Express Rider on Mon Aug 1 16:11:47 2016. Sounds about right. Did you learn know why 25Av/Astoria Blvd/Hoyt was the only 3 track express stop on the Astoria line? |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 1 20:39:26 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Express Rider on Mon Aug 1 16:09:03 2016. Anytime! |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 1 20:44:22 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Express Rider on Mon Aug 1 16:50:53 2016. I'm surprised that the TA didn't keep the "C" cars for shuttle services, after the eastern section of the Fulton el closed in April, 1956. They could have replaced the gate cars and those IRT wide door sill monstrosities on the Franklin Shuttle. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Bronx boy on Mon Aug 1 21:32:26 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 1 20:39:26 2016. As far as the temporary shuttles that gets interesting. The first temporary IRT shuttle was the Grand Central Tmes Square route. It was planned to be used until the passengers got use to the big change with the new H system. It was so busy that the plans to discontinue its use were never carried out. This is why the platforms at each stations were made of wood. Then after time the plans were to replace them with wood. The line was too busy to attempt this construction. We all know what happened then.Most of the IRT lines had temporary shuttles at the ends of the elevated lines. They were usually Composite cars. The 6th and 9th Ave els had a single track Shuttle going from 155th St Station to Sedgwick ave. This shuttle was instituted so the passengers using The NYC' s Putnam Line still had their connection to the els. That lasted until the construction was completed to 167th St. The Jerome line Shuttle went from Burnside Ave. to Woodlawn Road. As the line progressed trains were turned at 167th St, Burnside Ave. and Fordham Road. This is why there was never any express service on the middle track. There were many trains with short headways. That all ended in 1940 and the center track was used for storage of many el cars as 159th St. Yard was full. That all ended in 1949. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Aug 2 00:07:30 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Mon Aug 1 21:32:26 2016. Were there any temporary shuttles operated on the White Plains road line or the Pelham Bay Park line during their construction? |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Aug 2 00:10:55 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 1 20:44:22 2016. Using C-types on the shuttles and retiring the gate cars (much as railfans liked them) would have made sense. I have also seen a picture of the Wide sill IRT Lo-V's on the Culver shuttle (nycsubway.org maybe?) |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Aug 2 00:14:48 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 1 20:38:43 2016. No. Was it built with expectation of the line being extended beyond Ditmars Blvd.? |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Aug 2 05:07:31 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 1 20:44:22 2016. didn't include this in previous post - C-types would have made sense since they were MUDC - would have speeded loading/ unloading for passengers who had to use the rush hour shuttles such Kings Highway- Coney island. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue Aug 2 11:51:15 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Express Rider on Tue Aug 2 00:07:30 2016. Yes, many on Broadway, Jerome Avenue and White Plains Road Line. Pelham Bay, I don't know. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue Aug 2 11:53:10 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 1 20:44:22 2016. The IRT wide sill cars weren't made until after the C-types were all gone, so they couldn't have replaced the latter anywhere. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue Aug 2 11:56:42 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 1 20:44:22 2016. The C-types were kind of bastard equipment. The end cars were sturdy 1200/1400s but the center cars were ex-steam coach trailers.And they couldn't run on lower Myrtle. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 2 12:28:40 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Mon Aug 1 21:32:26 2016. Bronxboy, was the whole 159th St yard taken down when they started the Colonial Park (Wrangel) Houses in 1947-8? or, had some of it been dismantled during the war? I know that Robert Moses stopped the removal (by crane) of the remaining unwanted el cars there in 1942, until he was stopped by the War Production Board. Don't know what happened after that! |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 2 12:40:02 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by SLRT on Tue Aug 2 11:56:42 2016. I know about the "C" cars and why they couldn't run on lower Myrtle. Just wondered why they weren't freshened up and used on the Culver, West End, and the Frankie? As ugly as the "C's' were, they were still better looking than those LoV's with the added sills on the Frankie! |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue Aug 2 12:50:59 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 2 12:40:02 2016. The LoVs with the skirts were a stopgap on the Frankie just before delivery of the R27s. By that time the Cs were long since history.Also, the el car shuttles on the Southern Division ended before the last of the BMT Fulton closed. So there's a bit of anachronism going on here. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 2 14:43:27 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by SLRT on Tue Aug 2 12:50:59 2016. If that's the case, it's too bad the "C" cars could not have been used for something. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Aug 2 18:57:38 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 1 20:24:02 2016. Frank Pfuhler also emailed out a photo of the trolley ramp up to the 65th St. station. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Aug 2 19:00:36 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by SLRT on Tue Aug 2 11:51:15 2016. Thanks. I've read there were a several or more temporary shuttles for the Bronx lines, but I found no further details on them either. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Aug 2 19:08:59 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 2 14:43:27 2016. Agreed.And they weren't able to operate on the lower Myrtle due to their width right? The Lex. also didn't have its platforms cut back to accept to C's either did it? |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Tue Aug 2 19:33:18 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Express Rider on Tue Aug 2 19:08:59 2016. no |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue Aug 2 20:18:00 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Express Rider on Tue Aug 2 19:00:36 2016. Are you putting up a page on Wikipedia? |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue Aug 2 20:33:26 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Express Rider on Tue Aug 2 19:08:59 2016. And the Lex was gone in 1950 anyway.Of the pre-Dual Contract BRT elevated structures, the 5th and 3rd, lower Myrtle and Lex were never modified for subway-profile cars. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 2 20:55:13 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 2 12:28:40 2016. Pardon mon brainfart! Robert Moses, Scrap Commissioner (among other titles!), wanted to scrap the 159th St yard. However, there were a few ancient el cars which had been abandonded and stranded, when the rails were stripped for other lines or for the War effort. When he attempted to remove them by crane, the Feds stopped the removal. According to them, every railcar in the USAhad to be evaluated, before it was scrapped. I don't know what happened after that. i know that the War production board wanted them towed to the jerome line center track to be evaluated. Did this ever happen? |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Aug 2 20:57:09 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by SLRT on Tue Aug 2 20:18:00 2016. no, I just wanted to know the details for history learning's sake.Like too much of NYC transit history - facts can fall between the cracks and be almost forgotten, unless the knowledge is shared/ passed on. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Aug 2 20:57:09 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by SLRT on Tue Aug 2 20:18:00 2016. no, I just wanted to know the details for history learning's sake.Like too much of NYC transit history - facts can fall between the cracks and be almost forgotten, unless the knowledge is shared/ passed on. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Aug 2 20:58:02 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by TUNNELRAT on Tue Aug 2 19:33:18 2016. thanks. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Tue Aug 2 21:03:59 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by SLRT on Tue Aug 2 20:33:26 2016. yeah, I think I read (Headlights, the Brooklyn elevated issue), or just kind of figured it out about that.That would leave Fulton as the one and only pre-dual contract el, that had platforms cut back. Jamaica*, upper Myrtle were upgraded for subway equipment operation. *except for that unimproved stretch out by Crescent st. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Bronx boy on Tue Aug 2 21:53:41 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 2 12:28:40 2016. When service ended on the 9th ave. El in 1940 Composites were sent down the 3rd Ave El around the South Ferry horn to the 9th. These cars were to be the rolling stock of the Polo Grounds Shuttle. The 159th St. Yard was filled to capacity with Gate cars and one MUDC. (Reason unknown). The rest of the Manhattan cars were placed in storage on the Jerome Middle track from out of 170th St. Station to Burnside Ave. the El structure was cut off at the Macombs Bridge at the south end of the station. The 155th St. structure was stripped down to 3 tracks. The uptown and downtown express tracks and the island platforms and the downtown express tracks remained. The downtown express track was retained to become the relay track for exit and entry to the 159th St. Yard. Work was done in the barn to convert many el cars to cottages for Camp Sanita, a rest and recreation facility for the NYC Department Of Sanitation in upstate NY. Later it was used by the Boy Scouts of America as a camp. As the Defense Department forbid scrapping of transportation equipment for WW2 the yard and the cars in storage remained. Nearing the end of the war some cars were released for scrapping. When the war ended scrapping of the entire facility began. The cars were removed and taken to Classon Point in the Bronx where the were Burned. At the same time as the cars started disappearing the large elevated steelwork was removed. As some of the cars no longer ran the extra Composites from the Shuttle were used as horses moving the cars around the yard and the Jerome line middle. Interestingly in the final days some of the Composites gave up and some gate cars were fired up and towed the composites to their doom in the yard. The work then started on the Polo Ground housing complex at the site. As the relay track in the station was no longer needed the track was removed and the station was cut back with the staircases to the Macombs bridge and trolley station plus the staircases to the street removed. The steelwork from the relay track was retained for structural strength and that is the way the station remained until it was demolished when the shuttle ended. The 159th St. Yard was the largest elevated yard ever built. Two levels with its own powerhouse and marine facilities for the HarlemRiver.The railroad, elevated trains and trolley cars and my youth were all taken away. I stood on the 167th. St. Station when I got off the last car of the last train August 31st. 1958 and silently watched the train go North. As it faded away I realized It was over. But wait, a few days later my friends and I were at Jerome Ave. and 162nd St. When we heard a train coming. We looked up and a work train was coming out of the tunnel. It was 3662 3728 3667 and flat M64. They were loaded with parts. turnstyles, gates, etc. that was the last train ever to operate on the line. 3728 was the alcohol car and 3662 went to Branford. Nate |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Aug 3 07:09:26 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Tue Aug 2 21:53:41 2016. Wow!!!Great, vivid story- I can see it in my mind's eye. Thank you. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Aug 3 07:17:09 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by K. Trout on Sun Jul 31 12:19:15 2016. When did the 57/6 to 21 St shuttle run?I remember the 57/7 one (1998) and the Grand Street shuttles (mid '80s and again in the early 00s) The 57/7 one was extended south on weekdays. My memory says to 34th, but others on here tell me it only went to Times Square. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Aug 3 07:25:43 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 1 20:32:01 2016. Isn't that Boston's MO for abandonments? |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Aug 3 07:27:28 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Express Rider on Mon Aug 1 16:14:47 2016. Yeah. Until this very moment, I'd assumed the lower level at W4 sat unused until 12/1940. I'd wondered how, or even if they secured it from vagrants and teenagers... |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Bronx boy on Wed Aug 3 08:53:33 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Aug 2 20:55:13 2016. There were many Composites and elevated cars stored in 239 th St. Yard. The upper level was filled. All the switches were removed for the war effort. Moving the cars to the lower level was a problem. Lots of cars were burned on the lower level. As cars were brought there from their storage all over the IRT. Some were sold for scrap. That was the time frame when Mineola 3344 was taken there along with other ancient cars for disposal |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Aug 3 09:26:46 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Express Rider on Tue Aug 2 20:57:09 2016. That is very true...I was going to say that if anyone is thinking of putting up a "shuttles" page they should really distinguish between long-term shuttles (like Franklin, Times Square, Rockaway Park...), stopgap shuttles (like at the ends of new lines before through service is warranted) and GO temporary shuttles (like Grand Street). Did anyone mention Dyre Avenue in its various forms, like to the old NYW&B E180th station, and now to IRT E180th? I apologize if it's been mentioned, I really should compile these for my own records. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Aug 3 09:33:52 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Express Rider on Tue Aug 2 21:03:59 2016. Yes, I guess I would include elevated station sections that WERE widened but NOT improved as part of the Dual Contracts rebuilding: Alabama to Crescent; Canarsie el east of Pitkin; Franklin Avenue and Park Place on the Brighton. Part of Fulton WAS built or rebuilt and widened under the Dual Contracts: Nostrand to Atlantic, and of course, the Liberty Avenue Line. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Wed Aug 3 10:34:39 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Tue Aug 2 21:53:41 2016. Bronx Boy: Thank for an interesting post. May I use it for The Book of Last Runs? I will of course list you as the author.The consist of the last train is of great interest.Thanks Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Aug 3 13:20:04 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by SLRT on Wed Aug 3 09:33:52 2016. IIRC, on some editions of pre 1940 B.M.T. maps(?), as el routes were shown with narrower lines, the Nostrand to Atlantic section on Fulton, was shown with the wider subway route lines. Rebuilt as part of a preparation for operation with the Ashland Place connection correct? |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Aug 3 13:26:53 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Aug 3 07:09:26 2016. I agree with that. Excellent post, excellent history. I've posted numerous times that the quality of this kind of post equals the detail found in various pubs. about the London Underground. We need more of this kind of writing - and maybe put it towards publications equal to those found in London. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Aug 3 13:30:52 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Aug 3 07:27:28 2016. I also wondered if the lower level was just a shell, only being finished along with the rest of the 6th ave. subway, several years later.I think things were different then - the stairway may just have been gated across the top and no one was expected to tresspass it. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Aug 3 13:35:35 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Tue Aug 2 21:53:41 2016. re: ... in the final days some of the Composites gave up and some gate cars were fired up and towed the composites to their doom in the yard.There is a film clip of this appearing in one of Roger Arcara's Manhattan el videos. The location given was 239th st. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Aug 3 13:43:32 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Tue Aug 2 21:53:41 2016. Bronx Boy, I recall in a post of yours to Joe F. you mentioned seeing two of maybe the last Hi-V's on TA property at 207th (?) and added a comment about how their operation might have been a problem for the TA re: section breaks, on upgraded (signals & third rails) ROWs.I'd read about section break signals in an old IRT mimeo'd. operations manual I photocopied, but still don't understand them completely - power in a train's motors could electrify another section of the third rail if the train was between two sections, hence section break signals right? This was due to Hi-V's full voltage trainline? Could you please explain further? Thanks! |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Aug 3 14:26:22 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Aug 3 07:17:09 2016. I don't think 57/6 was ever the south end of the shuttle. There was a 21st St. to Grand St. shuttle, sometime in the early 1990s. There had been a 57/6 to Grand St. shuttle starting in 1986. Was it still running when 21 St./Queensbridge opened, meaning it was the first service to run there? That doesn't seem likely. Probably the service pattern from the late 80s was repeated a few years later, with the shuttle now extended three stops on the north end. That would make it one of the longest "shuttle" trains ever to run on the subway system, at least in terms of the number of stops. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Aug 3 15:15:01 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Express Rider on Wed Aug 3 13:20:04 2016. El routes and subway routes were in different colors. The width of the lines indicated the number of tracks. |
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