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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 3 15:34:56 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Wed Aug 3 08:53:33 2016. Thank you, but I was asking about the 159th Street yard, not the 239th St one. The former 6th And 9th Ave el cars could not have been moved from 159th to the 239th yard because of the subway tunnels south of 161st St station. I was hoping you, or someone, could tell me more about the stripping and demolition dates for the 159th St yard. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Aug 3 15:41:33 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by SLRT on Wed Aug 3 09:26:46 2016. me did |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Aug 3 15:53:57 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Express Rider on Wed Aug 3 13:43:32 2016. nate,tell them about the time the old "motormen"dumped a service car on the scrape heap. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Aug 3 16:07:21 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Aug 3 15:41:33 2016. You were my first guess. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Aug 3 19:48:20 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by SLRT on Wed Aug 3 15:15:01 2016. re: width... number of tracks.Thanks! I never knew that. I will have to look again at the color versions of these maps - I thought both subway and el were all one color (red for example) with just the el lines being narrower. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Aug 3 19:52:03 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Aug 3 15:53:57 2016. sounds like an unusual story - he must have gotten severly written up? |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Aug 3 20:20:59 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Express Rider on Wed Aug 3 19:52:03 2016. I,ll let nate tell it. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Bronx boy on Wed Aug 3 20:21:39 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Aug 3 15:53:57 2016. The TA was scrapping cars on the site of Starlight Amusment Park in the Bronx. It was located South of East 180th St. Station between the ex NYW&B right of way and the Bronx River. The Bronx Collasium arena which later became the repair shop for The Surface Transportation Corp, later the TA was on the North end of the site. The south portion ended just North of the 174th St. Bridge.The building was previously erected I think in Boston and was disassembled and move to this site. The building walls were concrete and were cut into squares and reassembled there. Each block had a small number in the lower corner used to place the pieces together in the same place. You could still see the faint numbers in the 50's. The right of way still had a single track connection to the NHRR. This was used for new car deliveries, coal and ballast deliveries and receiving scrap BMT el cars. The IRT ex 3rd Ave. MUDC cars and scrap IRT subway cars were also taken there for burning and scrapping. The Southbound NYW&B track had the outer rail unbolted on the South end of it and angled out . 4 IRT Deck Roofers were assigned there as horses to make these moves. These cars were consecutively numbered and for some unknown reason and had a stenciled a sign Do not use on The Third Ave El. One of the motorman was a veteran and was assigned for this job. He worked for the transit system so long that he had operated Mineola. When he would go South with scrappers on the South end he would calculate the distance with the amount of cars and the numbered blocks on the building and stop. The last car would be uncoupled and he would give it a push. Yes he operated from the North end. The car would roll down and when it came to the unbolted rail it would roll down the enbankment onto the ground where a crawler crane you'll pick it up and place it were in was stripped and the bodies lined up for burning. Well one day he went too far. The South motor went down the embankment when the coupler North coupler broke off. The car was picked up and scrapped. The horses finally went for inspection but the consist was one car short. Nobody new where it was. They thought it may have gone to 147th St. Shop for repairs and the would catch up to it when it came back. When it did not the call went to 147 and they did not know where it was. So East 180th St. Thought it was at 147 and 147 thought it was at E180th. This went on without issues as the 3 HI V's had more that enough power to function. Needless to say no body even cared anymore because they started scrapping so many cars. Finally the motorman retired. When leaving Jay Street after turning in his handles keys and pass said goodby he turned and said I don't want to leave after all these years and I must come clean. He fessed up and told his story. They all looked at him and smiled and said goodby. Tunnel rat, and you know who told me this story. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Bronx boy on Wed Aug 3 20:45:17 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 3 15:34:56 2016. The East side trains went to 239th St. Yard and the West side trains went to 159th St. Yard. Manhattan el cars would not fit in the tunnels due to their height. The Polo Gounds Shuttle tunnel was higher and the width was narrower. That is why the subway cars had the elevated portion of the 3rd rail shoes cut off. The problem there was the subway cars had no ice scrapers so that posed a problem in the winter. The Manhattan rail was uncovered. Once the connection was severed at South Ferry the Manhattan cars were marooned on the West side. That is the reason the composites were sent there to run on the shuttle. The Composites could not get to 147 th St Yard under their own power because of the Manhattan 3 rd rail shoes. They had to be towed. They could however be towed to the White Plains Road line and run up to 239th St. On their own. I will look up the dates you requested for 159th St. Yard in a few days and let you know. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 3 21:28:12 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Tue Aug 2 21:53:41 2016. Thank you, Bronxboy- excellent job! If you get a chance got to the Brooklyn Eagle website for Sept 25th, 1942, page 4, paragraph 2 (Boro Scraps Trolley Tracks). It mentions what I said about the 159th St yaed demolition attempt. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 3 21:39:47 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Wed Aug 3 20:45:17 2016. Thank you, again! From all that I have read, the Manhattan Elevated Railway must have driven a hard bargain when it allowed itself to be leased by the IRT. Not only did they get to keep their own elevated type third rail, but it seems they had a free hand in designing the Anderson Ave tunnel to exclude future use by the IRT subway. All that, plus a guaranteed 7% return on their bonds from the IRT (re-negotiated to 5% in 1923). |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 3 21:41:58 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Express Rider on Tue Aug 2 20:57:09 2016. I believe that Uncle Larry is saving a lot of our dates and stuff. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Aug 3 22:22:18 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Wed Aug 3 20:45:17 2016. Hello Nate:Thanks for all the interesting background info and nuance details which I also am aware of most of and can confirm that is all accurate. One small, but important, correction to your post above re: this sentence I quote from you: ....." That is why the subway cars had the elevated portion of the 3rd rail shoes cut off. "..... Well, regarding the Polo Shuttle subway car "paddle shoes" -- -- I believe you had a "typo" and really intended to say -- (I will reword it for you below) ... ....." That is why the subway cars had the subway portion (outer contact pad location) of the 3rd rail paddle shoes cut off."...... As we both well know, the "Elevated" portion location of the IRT's early dual contact rail paddle shoes, was at the INNER (actually middle) portion (and pad) of the paddle shoe. The "Subway" portion (and pad) of the paddle shoe was at the OUTER tip end portion of the paddle shoe, and it was THAT END that was cut off the paddle shoe to clear the narrow 162nd Street tunnel walls of the Polo Shuttle. I know all these back and forth of words and counter-descriptions can cause minor typo slip-ups -- happens to me sometimes, heh, -- but I re-read and constantly check my messages before hitting "Post" -- and still yet, heh, a mistake comes thru sometimes. As you well know, the Polo Line was one of my favorites as my dad lived right at it and I frequented it a lot, along with the LOEW'S 167th St. theater my Uncle occasionally managed ! And the JEROME Cafeteria, all in your old neighborhood ! regards - Joe F |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 3 22:30:16 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Aug 3 22:22:18 2016. Joe, why did the IRT allow the Anderson tunnel to be built so narrow as to exclude any future use of their subway cars? |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Aug 3 22:45:06 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Express Rider on Wed Aug 3 19:48:20 2016. The Hagstrom maps showed sub way services as thick lines and the elevated services as thin black lines. Where both a subway and elevated service ran on the same line, a thin black line ran down the center of the thick colored line. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Aug 3 23:15:16 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Wed Aug 3 20:21:39 2016. Hello Nate and T-RatYes, Nate is correct - As I was told by an old and now deceased New Haven Railroad employee pal -- the BMT EL gate cars were towed north to and scrapped at Starlite Park -- towed up the New Haven RR (*****) to E. 174th Street NYW&B Railway one time 4-track Jct, then towed up via the one connection track-and-switch to the former NB local NYW&B track up to the long crossover between NB and SB NYW&B local tracks on the steel viaduct just outside the south end of the NYWW&B E. 180 St Station. And then reversed and sent back south down the former NYW&B SB Local "scrap track" to the edge of the former Starlite Park Grounds just past and south of the stone piers for the then under construction Cross Bronx X-way. A crane-lifted them one by one off the Embankment R-o-W and the BMT EL Gate Cars lined up and were burned at the NORTH end of the scrap yard, along with surplus IRT 3rd Ave. EL and surplus old IRT subway cars filling most of the rest of the yard! Here are two photos I have -- BELOW - is seen a BMT 700 series center door motor gate car just south past and next top the Cross Bx. X-way pier on the west side of the NYW&B Embankment and its SB Local track, ready to be lifted off and lowered to the scrap grounds.  BELOW - was taken from the E. 174th Street auto bridge looking north along the former Starlite Amusement Park now scrap grounds, with Bronx River at left, and Cross Bronx X-way crossing overhead but still NOT finished -- and a string of center door BMT EL Motor Gate center-door cars on the NYW&B S/B local "scrapping yards access" track. The arch roof building is the former Starlite Amusement Park Arena Coliseum, then being used as a repair and garage facility for Surface Transportation System MACK and GMC red and cream transit buses. IRT Steel Low-V and Hi-V Class Hedley, Deck Roof and Gibbs Subway cars are being scrapped...some already burned, some not burned and still fully intact( seen at the left.) So how can I tell where the "burned" Hi-V GIBBS cars are? As they were the first new built IRT subway cars, they were steel bodied but built with canvas covered WOODEN ROOFS. The burned GIBBS cars are those seen with their roofs burned away ! All later IRT subway cars were ALL STEEL bodied, including roofs.  (****) One note of history. I never did determine exactly 4 decades ago from my NHRR employee pal, if the BMT EL Gate cars were .... (a)-- NHRR diesel towed over the Hell Gate Bridge via LIRR-NHRR-SBK interchange tracks in Brooklyn & Queens, OR -- (b)-- Towed by SBK from Coney Island BMT Yards over Macdonald Ave (under the BMT Culver EL) to LIRR Parkside Junction with SBK Macdonald Av. tracks, and from there to either the SBK or LIRR NHRR railcar floats in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, then north up the East River, and to the NHRR Freight Yards car float bridges at E. 132nd Street, (Bronx) Harlem River, and then towed by NHRR diesel thru the NHRR freight yards eastward to the track connection to the NHRR Hell Gate (East Bronx 4-track Mainline) -- and from there, towed north up to E. 174th street Jct. to the former NYW&B Railway trackage(then owned by the NYCTS-NYCTA). I would suspect that (b) was the more obvious route. I guess that detail is now long lost in history. Just some ancient history for sharing from those of us who were around like Nate G and I were back then! Regards - Joe F |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Bronx boy on Wed Aug 3 23:35:50 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Wed Aug 3 20:45:17 2016. Joe, you are correct. The subway portion of the shoe paddler was cut off as it would have hit the tunnel wall. My error.The reason the tunnels were constructed that narrow is because the Jerome line was built under the duel contracts an may have been given to the BRT. The Shuttle' s official name when constructed was The 162nd 8th Ave Connection. It was built by the IRT as part of the Broadway line extension to 242nd St. Take note of the Sedgwick Ave. Station railings on the steel structure. You will notice is is the same design as contract one. The IRT paid for it so to insure the Jerome line would be theirs 10 foot wide cars would never fit. August Belmont was an astute businessman. Remember he was part of a syndicate that built the Steinway tunnels with a trolley line that ran one trip and was stopped with an injunction because they never filed the proper franchise papers. The syndicate went broke and all participants lost everything except him. He took over the entire project and after some time he sold the tunnels to the city of New York and got the contract under the duel contacts to operate the Flushing and Astoria line jointly with the BRT. Coincidently the lines were predominantly IRT as the 10 foot cars would not fit in the Steinway tunnels. The man knew what he was doing. If the Steinway tunnels were wide enough the Flushing line would be part of the B Division today. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Aug 4 00:05:48 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 3 22:30:16 2016. The reason was most likely to "enforce" thru design, prevent the IRT from running, operating, heavier STEEL IRT subway cars in revenue service to be run down the 9th Avenue El south of W.155th Street Express station. Likely also being as IRT Subway cars could "electrically" operate with their paddle shoes on the Manhattan EL's "EL" style uncovered higher 3rd rails. However, here were some 3rd rail clearances in some places on the 4 Manhattan El's that precluded clearance for longer subway paddle shoes (or for installing subway position covered 3rd rails !) . But it was mainly a weight issue.The 3rd Ave and 2nd Ave. EL's could have steel subway cars TOWED EMPTY (non revenue) over their "EL" tracks. In fact, IRT Steinways were towed over the Q-Boro Bridge and to the IRT Mainlines via the 2nd Ave El for some maintenance and repairs up to June 1940, when the portion of the 2nd Ave El north from E.60th St to the E.129th St Junction with the 3rd Ave El and E.128th St. yards-shops located there, was closed and removed. And its well known that the IRT road-tested passenger-loaded brand new Composites on the 2nd Avenue EL in a year BEFORE the first IRT subway opened in October 1904. And also tested the first H&M Tubes BLACK MU STEEL Subway cars in 1906 (IIRC) on the 2nd Ave El after the IRT (was contracted to do at the IRT 3rd AVE EL E. 99th Street major shops) installed the control and running equipment. Here is my photo circa 1930 of an IRT Hedley Hi-V likely being shopped at the E. 99th Street shops of the 3rd Ave El -- seen looking northwest on the curved yard lead tracks coming off the 3rd Ave EL mainline. The paddle 3rd rail shoes and beams are REMOVED from the trucks !! The unique multi-angled-wall tower behind it is at the north edge of the curved yard and shop lead tracks and the E.99th St. powerhouse would be just behind it. Yes, some IRT Steel subway cars for whatever reasons were shopped at the E.99th Street major shops in early IRT years. Who knows why !  The IRT use of dual 3rd rail on some EL lines having joint steel subway and wood EL car trains, ALSO prevented EL trains from entering IRT trackage leading to subway tunnels. This was needed at the IRT Jerome EL where the dual 3rd rail ended just near the south end of the E. 161st Street Station on the CENTER TRACK only. However, the two local tracks from the 158th St Tunnel Portals up to anhd thru the station, and from there to the north interlocking point where the 9th Ave El 2 tracks connection from 162nd Street was, had only covered subway 3rd rail. IRT EL Cars were at times stored on the dual 3rd rail" equipped center express track of the E.161st Street local station in very early years. The ending of EL style uncovered 3rd rail prevented an "EL" train from in error heading SOUTH on the center track past the E. 161st St Station and down to the subway tunnel portals --- no power pickup available for its EL "Sled" 3rd rail shoes ! The same was the case on the subway approach tracks to and from the E. 149th Street 2 track tunnel portal on the IRT Westchester Avenue (West Farms) EL where it's subway route tracks interlocked with the 2 center-most "EL" tracks of the IRT 3rd Ave EL's 1917 opened Bergen Cutoff Junction (connected also there to its 1903 built original E.150th Street connection 2 blocks away to the 3rd Ave."EL".) The lack of EL style uncovered 3rd rail (and thus lack of power source) on the towards-portal descending subway tracks at the interlocking track locations, prevented IRT Wooden (and 1 foot higher)2nd or 3rd Ave. EL trains from in error heading under power towards and into the tunnel portions. And it DID happen once (I wrote here about this incident in the 1920's some time ago). The EL Motorman lost all power and applied the brakes in emergency, missing the tunnel portal by a about one train (6 car) length. Otherwise, the EL car clerestory roofs would have been torn off in the carnage ! regards - Joe F |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Aug 4 00:44:33 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Wed Aug 3 23:35:50 2016. Hello Nate:That likely may have been true also, but the BMT EL Cars used EL Style "SLED" 3rd Rail Shoes similar to IRT EL Car sled shoes, so the BMT could have run its BMT EL Cars thru the 162nd St tunnels at E. 162nd Street to 8th Avenue...as, heh, perhaps "shuttles" ? However, as the Jerome (Woodlawn) line mainline subway Tunnels were NOT built to EL car heights, so ONLY IRT (or BMT) steel subway trains with nearly one foot lower roofs than wood IRT and BMT EL cars, could run in the Woodlawn Line Subway Tunnels south towards Manhattan. As the BMT Standards were already around and operating some years before 1917 when the Jerome EL (and 9th Ave EL connection twin ramps over river Avenue down to 162nd St.) were being built - and then given to the IRT for used and sole operation - the 162nd street tunnel was built to clear IRT EL & Subwa Car widths by the time it was constructed. When was it, some time in 1916 just after the IRT purchased the NY&N RR Putnam line W. 155th St. Station easterly low-level island platform and its 2 station tracks and Harlem River bridge. So regardless, BMT 10' wide (Standards, D-Types, etc) cars could not operate thru that 162nd street IRT-Car width designed tunnel. But WHY was the tunnel not made to clear IRT Subway position covered 3rd rail and its 3rd rail paddle shoes ??? Regardless of 10' wide BMT Standard subway cars which used SUBWAY paddle shoes also ! It WAS built to clear IRT "EL Car" (and theoretically, figuratively BMT "EL Car")bodies having drop sled type 3rd rail shoes designed only for EL style and positioned 3rd rail ! How and where was it designed or planned to connect with the IRT Broadway EL line clear over Coogans Bluff huge hillside near Riverdale (off the Hudson) (note the approx 10 story or more height of the Macoombs Dam roadway bridge Trestle to the top of the bluff !) This would be very interesting historical info ! ALSO - re: Sedgwick Ave Station railings, notice that during the Manhattan 2nd, 3rd and 9th Avenue EL's third express track installation projects, in 1915 thru 1917 -- the three new 3rd ave EL Bowery Express Stations, and the 3rd Ave. and 9th Ave. EL's new Hump Express upper level station platforms, had the same Contract I railings Just as did the new stations on the 3rd tracked Bronx 3rd Ave EL ! Regards - Joe F |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Aug 4 03:23:40 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by SLRT on Wed Aug 3 22:45:06 2016. Thanks. I have a couple of older Hagstrom maps which do show these. Most interesting (changing subject) is the the thin black el line superimposed on the Jerome's thick colored line either up to Woodlawn or Burnside (for rush hour service). The maps continued to show this route even after it was cut back to 167th St. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Aug 4 03:24:13 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by tunnelrat on Wed Aug 3 20:20:59 2016. OK :) |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Aug 4 03:38:45 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Wed Aug 3 23:15:16 2016. Thanks for your post and the pictures!the Hi-V Gibbs cars had their anti-climbers only in the center under the storm door. Hedley's and Lo-V's, the anti-climber went all the way across the lower fron of each car. I am sure you know the above, just wanted to cite one more feature that differed on the Gibbs, Deck Roofers, and Composites Do you or anyone else, know when anti-climbers were installed on the Composites and Gibbs? The Interborough Fleet book shows early photos of these without any anticlimbers at all. Thanks. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Aug 4 03:43:06 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 3 21:41:58 2016. that's good to know.when I joined the ERA at 16, so many of the old timers were still around and could provide great oral memoirs. Now, we have to feel fortunate about the people that are still here and can fill in pre-1950 or 1940 details. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Aug 4 07:29:52 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Wed Aug 3 20:21:39 2016. Hello Nate !A Very Interesting & funny story about the Deck Roof motor horse going "over the side" at Starlite Scrap Grounds. Some technical questions however -- perhaps other present or former motormen here will jump in. (a) -- Such a tipping over and falling over and away down the embankment may likely have derailed the truck at the south end of the 3rd (from north) Deck Roof car, but some how it didn't (b) -- Such a tipping over and falling over away down the embankment did "break" the coupler on the car falling, however, why didn't it damage or break the coupler at the south end of the 3rd Motor Car ? There should have been some visible metal trauma to that coupler at the south end of the 3rd motor car. (c) -- Such a tipping over and falling away down the embankment would have ripped out the air brake hoses and caused the train to dump - and how would it be able to recharge up with a "break" or open line / rupture in the air hose / brake system ? Would he not have to walk down the track to that 3rd remaining car to see what happened ? (d) -- "If" the south end coupler at the south end of the 4th Deck Roof Hi-V Motor car "horse" that rolled over the embankment, had fitted and installed at that south end, a Van Dorn Link & Pin coupler (or adaptor of such) so as to be able to couple to EL Cars - all El cars having those Link & Pin couplers, didn't the other 3 deck Roof "horse" motor cars have standard tightlock IRT Couplers -- and if so, didn't anyone notice that the consist was now 3 cars and the now remaining south car did NOT have a link and pin coupler (or adaptor) ! When he (motorman) returned his now 3-car consist likely to E. 180th St yards that day for layup (perhaps stored in the Dyre Ave Line E. 180th St ex-NYW&B Express Station tracks) -- couldn't he see he was a car short ? Didn't anyone see it the next day or thereafter ? Very strange, heh ! But interesting story ! regards - Joe F |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 4 15:34:28 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Express Rider on Wed Aug 3 13:26:53 2016. I took me a few seconds to realize you probably weren't talking about actual London pubs, LOL :) |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 4 15:37:42 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Aug 3 21:39:47 2016. Well, in regards to the Anderson Avenue tunnel, they outsmarted themselves and all of us. It had a 40 year life. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Aug 4 16:13:29 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 4 15:34:28 2016. heh! :)I re-read the post a bit later, and thought the same thing, that pubs. could be mistaken for pubs ("down at the local") |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 4 17:06:58 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Aug 4 00:05:48 2016. I could not help notice the EXPRESS and BROOKLYN side markers, Joe. Are you sure this photo was,'t taken before the 1918 separation of east and west side IRT lines? After the Lexington and B'way-7th Ave subways were opened, the signs would have been more specific, right? |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Aug 4 18:13:27 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 4 17:06:58 2016. I would suspect you’re right about it being an older photo since I think by 1930 many of the Hedley HiVs had been converted to MUDC and the ones that weren’t had steps added for C/Rs to use when they were positioned as pilot motors. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Bronx boy on Thu Aug 4 20:14:55 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Aug 4 07:29:52 2016. Joe, in those days the guys would cover each other. When I see you and I tell you who told me the story you will understand. The barn at East 180th St. Had many parts and manpower available. That same person told me what really happened at Times Square in 1928. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Aug 4 20:38:51 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Thu Aug 4 20:14:55 2016. re: ... told me what really happened at Times Square in 1928.Is this something you can talk about now? If you can't, I understand. just mentioning this tragedy is still painful to think about - even to those of us who weren't around then. My Dad told me about it*, and then I went and looked it up NYT's microfilm, shocking and sad to read. *he grew up in Middletown, NY, but his family got the Times every Sunday - must have made an impression on him hearing the adults talk about it, he was only eight that year. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Aug 4 20:58:14 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 4 17:06:58 2016. EL Keeper / RandyoThat was "the date" on the back of the photo in pencil -- but I would fully agree (and I will correct my URL-listed date for it) that it should more be like 1917-1920 era. The Hi-V Manual Door controlled cars had safety covers placed over their center door end control levers after that time (during the late 1920's). As far as the side metal route signs -- they could have been hung there randomly and not displaying a specific route because that sign was not hung and thus missing at the time not or was removed and placed in the sign storage box. I was more interested in the location of the car which I identified because I know the line, the yards and area well. And THAT was relative to what the photo was posted for. regards - Joe F |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Aug 4 21:10:17 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Aug 4 15:37:42 2016. I also heard that the signals on Jerome-River Aves were controlled by the Manhattan Elevated Railway. So, maybe the IRT was so busy with its other projects that it had the MER plan and operate the line from the Polo Grounds to River Ave and north on Jerome. Joe, if you are still here, what do you think? |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Aug 4 21:14:42 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Thu Aug 4 20:14:55 2016. Hi Nate;I understand your point, and yes, railroaders and transit guys did cover for the reliable and good employees under the operation by the original companies (before government take-over) and I was told some first hand stories along that line by old employees I knew. Father. Cosgrove is a good example (one of many) as to what went on, and he got away with, and was "permitted' by loyal employees "looking the other way..." and covering for all involved on the old IRT and BMT. Times Square, 1928, yeah, the major wreck and the track switchman Baldwin... perhaps we both heard the same story. We will discuss it when we meet ! But I agree, that somehow that scrap train (Starlite Park) motorman was "covered" by his shop and other management pals at E.180th Street for the missing Deck Roof car and any (heh) visible actual damage to the south end of the remaining 3rd car's coupler, chains and air hoses. A quick and easy fix. You and I know what went on in car renumbering and (etc., etc.,) to hide and save various to late become TA Museum cars in the late 1950's -- from the scrappers. Joe F |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Aug 4 22:56:05 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Aug 4 21:14:42 2016. I've lamented thiw before, but it doesn't bring'em back... too bad no Hedleys were able to saved from the scrappers... or Composites |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Aug 5 13:04:11 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Thu Aug 4 20:58:14 2016. The covers over the center door controls were not installed so much for safety as for keeping the C/R uniforms from getting soiled by the grease that was in the mechanism. The handles on the end door control were modified to provide more clearance for the C/R to be able to get up on the steps which were subsequently installed. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Bronx boy on Fri Aug 5 20:27:49 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by randyo on Fri Aug 5 13:04:11 2016. The conductors clothing would also get caught in the mechanism. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Bronx boy on Fri Aug 5 21:38:45 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Express Rider on Thu Aug 4 22:56:05 2016. A Standard HI-V (Hedley) was almost saved. During the last days of scrapping South of E180th St. The folks that lived in the apartment houses West of the site became furious . They could not stand the smoke and smell of the burning of the cars. The Cross Bronx Expressway was under construction. So many apartment houses were being demolished that disposing the debris was a major issue. To dispose of the wooden lathes in the walls the scrapper would fill up the steel subway cars with them to act as kindling. This worked for them but not for the residents. They we're constantly protesting and they were close to getting an injunction to shut it down. My friend who was also a railfan and later became a Suprintendent in RTO made friends with the scrapper. He lived in one of those houses. He knew many of the protesters as well. The scrapper told him to inform the people that if they left him alone when he finished the next group of cars he would close down and move somewhere else. A deal was made and for helping him he gave him car 3700. It had just been released from work service and was intact. He went to the ERA and asked them to help him. They had showed little interest. He contacted Branford but in those days they had little interest in subway cars. He gave it his best shot but for a 15 year old boy the task was impossible. He went and informed the scrapper that he would be unable to take the car. He was able to take anything he wanted and the car was torched. He gave me one of the glass number panes which I still have. When I was going to De Witt Clinton High. school 3662 was used in a parade down 5th Avenue along with an R--17 painted gold, On flatbed trucks. This was done to commemorate 50 years of the Fifth Ave. Association. The Deck Roofer was also painted in Pullman Green and the interior was done over. The car looked great. After the parade the car wound up at Yard and became a work car for the Polo Grounds Shuttle. (This was done by people in the TA to save the car. I was luckier than my friend I could see the roof of the car and read the INTERBOROUGH on the letter board over the concrete wall of the yard from the top floor of school. I was luckier than my friend. I informed the ERA of the whereabouts of the car. Henry Roudenbush (The Baron) as he was called, contacted the TA and purchased the car for a little amount and convinced Branford to accept the car. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Bronx boy on Fri Aug 5 21:38:53 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Express Rider on Thu Aug 4 22:56:05 2016. A Standard HI-V (Hedley) was almost saved. During the last days of scrapping South of E180th St. The folks that lived in the apartment houses West of the site became furious . They could not stand the smoke and smell of the burning of the cars. The Cross Bronx Expressway was under construction. So many apartment houses were being demolished that disposing the debris was a major issue. To dispose of the wooden lathes in the walls the scrapper would fill up the steel subway cars with them to act as kindling. This worked for them but not for the residents. They we're constantly protesting and they were close to getting an injunction to shut it down. My friend who was also a railfan and later became a Suprintendent in RTO made friends with the scrapper. He lived in one of those houses. He knew many of the protesters as well. The scrapper told him to inform the people that if they left him alone when he finished the next group of cars he would close down and move somewhere else. A deal was made and for helping him he gave him car 3700. It had just been released from work service and was intact. He went to the ERA and asked them to help him. They had showed little interest. He contacted Branford but in those days they had little interest in subway cars. He gave it his best shot but for a 15 year old boy the task was impossible. He went and informed the scrapper that he would be unable to take the car. He was able to take anything he wanted and the car was torched. He gave me one of the glass number panes which I still have. When I was going to De Witt Clinton High. school 3662 was used in a parade down 5th Avenue along with an R--17 painted gold, On flatbed trucks. This was done to commemorate 50 years of the Fifth Ave. Association. The Deck Roofer was also painted in Pullman Green and the interior was done over. The car looked great. After the parade the car wound up at Yard and became a work car for the Polo Grounds Shuttle. (This was done by people in the TA to save the car. I was luckier than my friend I could see the roof of the car and read the INTERBOROUGH on the letter board over the concrete wall of the yard from the top floor of school. I was luckier than my friend. I informed the ERA of the whereabouts of the car. Henry Roudenbush (The Baron) as he was called, contacted the TA and purchased the car for a little amount and convinced Branford to accept the car. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Bronx boy on Fri Aug 5 22:23:09 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Fri Aug 5 21:38:53 2016. Sorry for my mistake. The person who purchased 2662 for Branford was Henry Rushmeyer ( The Baron ). |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Aug 5 23:01:44 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Fri Aug 5 21:38:45 2016. Bronx Boy: I have enjoyed your recent posts about the IRT cars.One post in particular provided a great deal of detail about the last days of the Polo Grounds shuttle. I would like to add it to The Book of Last Runs if you agree, with due credit for yourself. Thanks, Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Bronx boy on Fri Aug 5 23:04:51 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Fri Aug 5 21:38:53 2016. Sorry for my mistake. I was referring to Henry Rushmeyer (the Baron) who purchased 3662 for Branford. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Bronx boy on Fri Aug 5 23:06:10 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Fri Aug 5 21:38:53 2016. Sorry for my mistake. I was referring to Henry Rushmeyer (the Baron) who purchased 3662 for Branford. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sat Aug 6 00:36:10 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Fri Aug 5 21:38:45 2016. Thank you for taking the time to post such an interesting and detailed account of preservation (and almost preservation) history. I always enjoy reading yours and Joe Frank's posts - I copy and paste them into Word docs to be put into folders - such valuable posts about IRT history need to be saved as well.I have seen 3662 at Branford during the 90s, but have never ridden it when it was out for operation. I visited Branford for the first time in 1966 or '67 with my family. The car was on the siding next to the main museum area, and was locked up. I climbed up on one end to peer in. The interior wasn't restored yet, and was being used for storage.. One of its storm door windows was missing and covered over with some kind of white cardboard. I took the best 3/4 view I could manage, the storm door without the window being the one that was visible. I found 3352 at Seashore, deep in one of their barns (during the mid 90s). It looked like its interior still needed restoration from the floor up. I don't know anything about further reostoration progress. It's too bad the center doors were removed as an attempt to bring it back to 1904 condition. The car really only operated this way for 3 or 4 years before its center door was installed, and that's the way it appeared for the remainder of its life. Doing that to this car also lost to preservation, the IRT's own in-house work to upgrade this car by installin the center door: the rebuilding of passenge windows, and most importantly, the earliest automatic door equipment operated by compressed air. Both cars should come home, to be fully restored and operational at CI and become part of the museum fleet - the oldest operational first steel subway cars anywhere! And not to forget the Mineola either. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sat Aug 6 01:32:46 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Fri Aug 5 20:27:49 2016. Nate - you beat me to it with that clothes reply, heh -- I was busy with the EL-Trolley Layout open house all day today at my House.Yes, thanks, that's why I originally stated a safety issue -- clothes got caught in the small gears (perhaps the end of a finger, heh) along that half-circle gear rack at the top of where the long actuating rod came upward from below the anticlimber. The grease on the clothes (jacket sides and lower sleeves) was the minor issue. Joe F |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Bronx boy on Sat Aug 6 07:44:01 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Express Rider on Sat Aug 6 00:36:10 2016. We had a commitment for funding of the restoration of Mineola. We also had a commitment from the Transit Museum to bring the car to Court St.. The person involved with the funding was killed in the World Trade Center attack and that ended that project. Right now 3662 needs to be repaired. The damage done to the motors and underfloor components from the Hurricanes need to be addressed . I think there is money still available from FEMA to pay for half of it if the other half can be provided by the museum. If anyone out there wishes to be a part of this project contact me or the museum. The car is a very rare and interesting artifact that should be preserved. The 824 Manhattan elevated Insruction car also needs some attention. Just look at what was done to the two El cars at the Rio Vista museum in Calfornia.Nate |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Sat Aug 6 09:29:05 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Tue Aug 2 21:53:41 2016. The cars were removed and taken to Classon Point in the Bronx where the were Burned.I've seen photos of 700 series BRT el cars being burned in a location in the Bronx that was at one time was Starlight Amusement Park. The cars were brought down the old NYW&B ROW and removed from their trucks and taken to an open field where their car bodies, very close together were set ablaze. Is this the same location as Classon Point ? Bill Newkirk |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Sat Aug 6 09:49:44 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Sat Aug 6 07:44:01 2016. 
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sat Aug 6 10:03:16 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bill Newkirk on Sat Aug 6 09:29:05 2016. Bill: They were two separate parks. Starlight was located next to the NY&W ROW. Clason Point had its own amusement park at the end of Soundview Avenue which lasted into the early thirties.Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Sat Aug 6 10:18:03 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sat Aug 6 10:03:16 2016. Bill: They were two separate parks. Starlight was located next to the NY&W ROW. Clason Point had its own amusement park at the end of Soundview Avenue which lasted into the early thirties.Larry, RedbirdR33 Would this be Classon Point ? Bill Newkirk |
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