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| Re: Shuttle of New York City (1403855) | |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sat Aug 6 10:22:15 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bill Newkirk on Sat Aug 6 10:18:03 2016. soundview ave= classon pt.`nuff said. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sat Aug 6 10:43:03 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bill Newkirk on Sat Aug 6 10:18:03 2016. Would this be Classon Point ? Bill: That would be correct. I lived there for several years. Soundview Avenue is the main street of Clason Point. For some reason the bus route was always referred to as the Bx-27 Clason Point and not Soundview Avenue. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Aug 6 12:15:40 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Tue Aug 2 21:53:41 2016. I love it.Well written recollection of recorded history,but from a very visual POV. I salute you. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Aug 6 12:34:51 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Tue Aug 2 21:53:41 2016. Nate, do you know when the demolition of the 9th Ave el, south of 155th St, was finished- and where? I know when/where it began, but I cannot find any info when/where it was finished. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Aug 6 14:21:38 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sat Aug 6 01:32:46 2016. Clothing getting caught hadn’t occurred to me but it makes sense. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Aug 6 14:33:05 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Express Rider on Sat Aug 6 00:36:10 2016. The problem with bringing the Mineola and 3662 back to the NYCTS is that they are both Hi-Vs and without any section break signals which the IRT had, it could present a hazard if the cars were to be operated on the transit system as it exists today. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Aug 6 14:34:40 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Fri Aug 5 21:38:45 2016. I imagine the 15 year old boy who became an RTO superintendent is Bruce Lane who actually lived in the neighborhood where those cars were scrapped. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Aug 6 14:36:30 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Fri Aug 5 23:06:10 2016. And as I mentioned in my other post, I imagine that the 15 year old boy who became a superintendent is Bruce Lane who lived in the neighborhood where the cars were scrapped. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Aug 6 14:43:00 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sat Aug 6 10:43:03 2016. I recall seeing a list of stations on the URT Pelham Line when it was proposed and the station now known as Soundview Ave was referred to as Classons Pt Rd. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sat Aug 6 17:11:03 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by randyo on Sat Aug 6 14:43:00 2016. I recall seeing a list of stations on the URT Pelham Line when it was proposed and the station now known as Soundview Ave was referred to as Classons Pt Rd. Clason Point Road was renamed Soundview Avenue on May 2, 1916. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sat Aug 6 17:37:47 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Sat Aug 6 07:44:01 2016. bill n.,thank you for posting this photo. I have seen the other photos of these cars, and their restoration was done excellently. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sat Aug 6 17:44:44 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by randyo on Sat Aug 6 14:33:05 2016. I have read a basic description of how section breaks work. What were the design features of the Hi-V's that would have allowed an overload of current between third rail breaks powered by different sub-stations (which could burn out the motors) that were changed or improved upon in later equipment? |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Aug 6 20:49:22 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sat Aug 6 17:11:03 2016. That explains that. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Aug 6 20:53:29 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Express Rider on Sat Aug 6 17:44:44 2016. Since the motor control systems of the Hi-Vs were 600V, the full 600V 3rd rail current had to be carried from car to car by bus jumpers which would mean that a train of Hi-Vs going from a live section to a dead one would energize the dead section until the entire train had passed into the dead section breaking the transmission from the live section. Lo-Vs only had 32V battery current going from car to car so there was no danger of transmitting live power to a dead section. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sun Aug 7 00:43:33 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by randyo on Sat Aug 6 20:53:29 2016. Thank you! |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Bronx boy on Sun Aug 7 00:46:29 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by randyo on Sat Aug 6 20:53:29 2016. Here is a short explanation of why car assignments of different IRT lines were. The reason that HI-V's were assigned to the Broadway and Pelham line and the LO-V''s were on the Jerome, White Plains, Astoria and Flushing lines was simple. The Broadway and Pelham lines were subway only. One 3rd rail. The others were joint operation,subway and elevated. Two 3rd rails, Manhattan and subway. Making up and cutting trains of HI-V's was dangerous enough with the 600 volt jumpers on each side of the cars. Now ad to the operation a third rail on each side as well and the Manhattan rail being uncovered. It was safer to use the HI-V where there was only one third rail. The yards on joint operated lines had only a Manhattan 3 rd rail and the duel paddle IRT shoe worked in that position. Think about adding and cutting and then loosing your balance and falling. You needed to fall on the covered subway rail. The Manhattan 3rd rail on the joint lines had no side protection boards at all because the subway portion of the shoe would not clear the board as the position was lower and out more. All the joint operation yards were classified and operated by the Manhattan division. The union contracts were even different. For instance Mosholu Yerd was a Manhattan yard long after the Manhattan rail was removed. Then another strange thing was the Dyre Ave shuttle was classified part of the IND but had IRT crews and wooden gate cars with subway 3rd rail beams and shoes. operating it, but that s another story. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Bronx boy on Sun Aug 7 01:14:22 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Express Rider on Sat Aug 6 17:44:44 2016. The IRT had cabinets with glass doors along the lines. In an emergency the motorman was instructed if he ran a red section break signal to apply the brakes an wind up the controller at the same time. This was to draw voltage off the now livened 3rd rail. The crew was instructed to go to the car that was bridging the gap and remove the jumpers. If a car was stopped over the gap the motorman would slipper the shoes on one truck. If that was not able to be done he would go to the nearest cabinet and break the glass and remove a long insulated bar inside.Then he would break the shoes on one truck off with it. Needless to say if anyone was working on the power or rail or if there was a derailment on that section they would be seriously hurt or electrocuted. When the ramp was built from the IND concourse line to the Jerome line they installed section break signals coming off the ramp in the yard on some tracks around the barn where the wheel Turing machine was installed. When they started moving IRT HI-V's trains to 207th St. For service a pilot cars with duel trip arms were used. There were no section break signals along the route or in 207 th St. Yard and fortunately nothing ever happened. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Bronx boy on Sun Aug 7 01:17:08 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by randyo on Sat Aug 6 14:36:30 2016. Randyo. You are correct |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Bronx boy on Sun Aug 7 01:18:14 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by randyo on Sat Aug 6 14:33:05 2016. The cars would have been operated as trailers. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Bronx boy on Sun Aug 7 01:40:29 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by randyo on Sat Aug 6 14:33:05 2016. Randyo, I forgot to mention. Mineola was is actually an elevated car with a lower roof. It is 47 feet long and had elevated trucks and motors. The controller is unique with an extra point for smoother operation. The most interesting regarding the power is the car never had HI -V jumpers. When the subway opened and service started to increase Mr.nBelmont was afraid of being in hit by a road train. The subway division had 3 New York elevated supply trailers operating as work cars in the subway. The NYERR had smaller cars. One car I think it was 04 was used as a buffer car and was added to the rear of his car in case of an accident. It must have been fun changing ends. It was It was coupled using Iron and air. When the consist was taken to 239th yard for scrapping the cars went as a pair along with other ancient relics out of 147th St barn. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Stef on Sun Aug 7 02:13:50 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Sun Aug 7 01:40:29 2016. Buffer Car for Minnie? This young person is following along with great interest. -Stef |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Aug 7 02:30:43 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Stef on Sun Aug 7 02:13:50 2016. Same here! I've been quietly taking it in and reveling in the details and photos between Bronx Boy, Joe and the others. It's like old times again here! :)
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Aug 7 07:41:43 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Sun Aug 7 00:46:29 2016. Hello Nate & AllBack a few months ago and even some years longer ago, I also covered the Dual Third rail and equipment IRT issues --- here BELOW LINKED are a few older threads loaded with many interesting replies, as well as many of my own multiples of replies - all with historical and tech info - linked for those few here who are currently enjoying this Dinosaur's - and fellow Dinosaur "Bronx Boy"(Nate's) memories and stuff, heh, and may like to re-read these detailed threads with history and fact and tech filled postings ! Save / print / this stuff, guys, because someday when Sub Chat and we dinosaurs are gone, it will otherwise be lost ! Thread 1 -- Woodlawn - Polo Ground Shuttle 3rd rail Shoes - (May 2016) Thread 2 -- Covered / Uncovered Third Rail- (May 2009) Thread 3 -- Yankee Stadium & Old 9 Ave EL Connection (Sept. 2008) Thread 4 -- Tuscarora Almanac - 3rd Ave EL - 12-15-1956 - (Dec. 2013) My Old IRT memories in Modeling - (Dec. 2013) Why the Composite Trucks on Q Types for 3rd Ave EL (my reply-April 2016) Below is a long 3 page thread with lots of varied historical and nostalgia-memory laden postings by many viewers, including myself, covering many older parts of the system (ie: Polo Shuttle Line, NYW&B RR tracks below E. 180St, and etc, etc) perhaps motivated by my memories preserved by photos of my modeling of the system... Thread 5 - Three Pages of various historical and nostalgia laden postings by many, including myself - Jan. 2015 ALL of the above links should keep many of you busy reading and re-enjoying, and perhaps spur and generate even more discussions... I do much enjoy reading the old memories, tidbits, many decades ago nostalgia memories and history by Nate and many of the others who have been posting here ! regards - Joe F |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Bronx boy on Sun Aug 7 09:14:31 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Aug 7 07:41:43 2016. Joe, they never ran MUDC's on the Polo Grounds Shuttle. All the MUDC cars were sent to the east sidelines when service ended on the 9th in 1940. One lone MUDC remained in 159 th St. Yard and was scrapped there. The order of cars were Composites, , Steinways, Standard pilot model HI-V's, mixed Standards and pilot model Gibbs cars then finally Steinways. The problem with the subway cars was iceing on the 3rd rail.There was also a proposal to extend the shuttle through 159th St. Yard up the right of way of the old Harlem River Speedway to 10th Ave and connect to the Broadway line. I heard this many times when I was young but could never verify its authenticity. Just remember the Jerome line was just as much a West side line as it was an East side line. When the 9th quit the free transfer was provided at 161st St. Jerome and 155th St 8th Ave. Most of the protests to keep the shuttle were from the Wilson Publishing Company located at The Sedgwick Ave Station.. It put a large burden on their employees for access to the transit system. In the nice weather walking across the swing bridge was not so bad, but in the winter! The south walkway was closed just before the construction of the Major Deegan, When Sedgwick Ave. was rebuilt. An exit only was added on the east end of the platform and an entrance on the east end of the Southbound platform for the IRT. and the Put. They added kiosks on the east side of Segwick ave. A sign is on display at the Transit Museum. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Sun Aug 7 10:54:55 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Edwards! on Sat Aug 6 12:15:40 2016. Salute your shorts! |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Aug 7 18:03:07 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Sun Aug 7 01:14:22 2016. From what I have seen in the B of T rule book relative to the IRT, if a section break signal flashed in front of a M/M he was instructed to keep the train going until the entire train was in the dead section to avoid bridging the sections. In the unlikely event that the train did bridge the sections, the M/M was to pull the bus and balance jumpers between the cars in the 2 sections. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Bronx boy on Sun Aug 7 19:43:15 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by randyo on Sun Aug 7 18:03:07 2016. Randyo,I can send you a copy of the emergency instructions. It is interesting. Ask Bill Wallfor my phone number or give him your info. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Aug 7 20:38:37 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Wed Aug 3 20:45:17 2016. Bronx Boy, in case you missed my question the first time- when/where was demolition completed on the 9th Ave el? |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Sun Aug 7 23:15:11 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Bronx boy on Sun Aug 7 09:14:31 2016. Hello NateYES -- I agree with you and take your word. My father, who worked the IRT "EL'S" (Manhattan Railway Div.) in June 1940 and lived 1/2 block from the Anderson Ave. Station -- long ago told me about "a few wooden EL cars" left for use on the shuttle immediately after city takeover -- I now presume at this time he meant the "Composite" cars as - heh - being "the EL Cars". He was very observant but wasn't a railfan or historian -- solely a very system-interested IRT employee. I assumed he meant "MUDC EL cars" because I long later knew Composites (wooden ex-subway cars) were used for the start of shuttle service. UNLESS, he may have seen that one surviving MUDC car you refer to and thought at the time there were a few more with it retained for service use. So now all this time later, a valid correction, and thanks ! Joe F |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Aug 8 06:16:36 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Aug 7 20:38:37 2016. Hello El KeeperThere was a major demolition of the Polo Grounds W.159th St EL yards in 1943 -- I have attached a dated official demolition photo. There may have been a small portion of the elevated yard trackage retained -- perhaps 2 or 3 rows of tracks coming off the former S/B express track converted to a one yard lead track from the W.155th St Station -- as quite obviously there would not need to be hardly much of it for Composite Car Shuttle Trains layups in off peak. And all that scrapped El yard surplus steel rail and EL structures was needed for the war scrap steel recycle effort. BELOW-photo from my collection; Looking north from the W.159th St overhead Tower March 2, 1943  Whatever severely diminished tiny portions of the once huge yards that remained there, were removed sometime between 1949 and 1950, for the construction of the Colonial Park Housing (now the Rangel Houses) Projects. Its 8 buildings construction were started in 1950 and the first buildings and apartments opened May 1951. And the whole 8 buildings were finished for rental by September 1951. They were built entirely on ALL lands of the former huge W. 159th St EL Yards. See photos below. Except the former IRT ground level land waterfront property along the Harlem River edge that by 1952 became part of the then new southernmost entry to the Harlem River Drive. By the 1960's, the Drive was extended southward to 129th St & 3rd Avenue, to mate with the east River Drive which temporarily ended many blocks south of 129th Street Here is what the Polo Grounds looked like with Yards and W.155th Street Station in an aerial view prior to June 1940  Here are two views of the new Colonial Park Housing Projects built in 1950-51 on the grounds of the former W.159th St huge EL yards: Below is an aerial view N.E. from the Coogans Bluff hillside (west side of the yard grounds) with the north edge of the Polo grounds Stadium at right; 1951 newsprint photo;  Below is an aerial view northward from the south side of the Polo grounds, showing the housing projects and the new Harlem River Drive south extension towards the connection to the East River Drive at 2nd Ave at E.129th Street.  So I would safely say that the yards, whatever truncated smaller remnants remaining after 1943-44, were removed some time around (ballpark figure, no pun intended) 1949, to prepare the land and excavations for the 8 huge project buildings that opened in May 1951. If any other info comes up, I will provide it. regards - Joe F . |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Mon Aug 8 09:51:20 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Aug 8 06:16:36 2016. Joe: The second pictures has a great view. Its a shame that they tore down a great railroad yard just to build some more brick and concrete eyesores.Thank you for posting those pictures. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 8 13:27:21 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Mon Aug 8 09:51:20 2016. The problem is that once the full 9 Av el ceased operation, there was no reason to retain the yard and even less reason once the Polo Grounds shuttle shut down. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Aug 8 15:19:29 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Mon Aug 8 09:51:20 2016. People have to live somewhere, and there still isn't enough housing, apparently. That rail yard was redundant along with the rest of the El given the 8th Avenue Subway. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 8 15:32:16 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Mon Aug 8 09:51:20 2016. Now, it's the Rangel houses, formerly the Colonial Park Houses. The site where NYPD officers Waverly Jones and Joseph Piagentini were murdered, in cold blood, in 1971. I never forgot their names! |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 8 16:26:17 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Mon Aug 8 09:51:20 2016. For Joe, Bronxboy, or anyone- when/where was the 9th Ave el demolition completed. |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Mon Aug 8 17:09:28 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Aug 8 15:19:29 2016. Did you really think that it was a serious post? Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Shuttle of New York City |
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Posted by BMRR on Mon Aug 8 21:23:27 2016, in response to Re: Shuttle of New York City, posted by JOE @ NYCMTS - NYCTMG on Mon Aug 8 06:16:36 2016. Joe,Great pictures, I remember the Polo Grounds. What became of the tracks leading to the bridge in second picture? Or the bridge itself. Again, thanks for posting all this history. Kevin |
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