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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by HANDBRAKE on Tue Jun 23 14:23:15 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Jun 20 04:15:28 2015. Run the M to Forest Hills, as stated, using the same timetable as the present R. Send the R to Queensboro Plaza on weekends/Holidays until the R is cut back to a shuttle service in Brooklyn between Midnight & five AM.R riders can continue into Queens on 7 line services, and transfer at Herald Square for F/M trains for service on Queens Boulevard into Queens. The addition of a walking transfer between Queensboro & Queens Plaza stations might add to traveler options. The lack of a train storage facility is the only limiting factor with a service plan to Queensboro Plaza. Then again R train lay ups on 3/4 track on the Astoria elevated on weekends cans be re-used on N/Q services during weekdays using NTT's. |
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Re: A Way to Run the M to Midtown on Weekends |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Jun 23 14:28:43 2015, in response to Re: A Way to Run the M to Midtown on Weekends, posted by HANDBRAKE on Tue Jun 23 13:23:08 2015. Of course. The occasion I recall was on a Saturday afternoon on QB- probably Roosevelt Ave., but I'm not sure. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 23 15:10:23 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by randyo on Tue Jun 23 13:00:51 2015. Trying to get Wallyhorse to understand that would be a difficult, if not impossible task. Having the "D", "F", and "M" switch around, even at night, is, as you say, not a good idea. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jun 23 16:21:50 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by HANDBRAKE on Tue Jun 23 14:23:15 2015. Running the R to Queensboro Plz is worse than sending the Ms to Chambers on the weekends. Besides that it makes no sense to replace a Bway service in Queens with a 6 Ave service. Qns Blvd passengers expect the Bway service the way it has been running for years and there would be hell to pay if it were ever removed. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Jun 23 18:07:30 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Mon Jun 22 23:16:25 2015. You know full well most M train riders are headed to midtown, which is why it was extended to Essex in the 1st place. so when you say "very few people would benefit", it hardly makes any sense. Essex Street gets them only the F train. W4th gets people the F, A, C, E nd and an easier platform transfer to the F. Chambers St is nothing more than easy terminus of little benefit to riders.If the M goes to W4th, then the D goes local on 6th Avenue. That is the cause-effect relationship. The 6th Avenue line is the only trunk line is Manhattan that loses routes on weekends, and it loses 2 of 4 them. An express past 14th and 23rd is not justified and saves people all of 90 seconds. I didn't propose doing anything for CPW, not that the C train is adequate. When Wallyhorse went on and on about Belmont, I said he was a wrong. But I will not automatically fault him for everything he says. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 24 03:02:15 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Joe V on Tue Jun 23 18:07:30 2015. From a previous message:"You know full well most M train riders are headed to midtown, which is why it was extended to Essex in the 1st place. so when you say "very few people would benefit", it hardly makes any sense. ..." I believe that while weekend M-train ridership is important, that there are more riders on the D-train and the F-train that would be affected by the proposed changes at West 4th Street, and on Central Park West. I've reviewed the MTA's Average Weekend (Saturday + Sunday) Subway Ridership for the years 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014 -and I've realized a few interesting facts. ------------ The Bronx Portion Of The D-Train: The D-train in its Bronx segment of stations handles more riders than the M-train on the weekends. Just counting the D-train stations from 155th Street-Polo Grounds to 205th Street-Norwood, and leaving out the Yankee Stadium station, the D-train in 2009 carried 91,168 riders, in 2010 - 93,988 riders; in 2011 - 95,572 riders; in 2012 - 96,752 riders; in 2013 - 103,911 riders; and in 2014 - 107,717. During the weekends the D-train alone handles the ridership of its Bronx segment starting north of the 155th Street-Polo Grounds station. If HALF of the ridership at the Yankee Stadium station could be attributed to the D-train, that would easily add 15,960 riders in 2009 to 18,088 additional riders in 2014 on the weekends. In just the Bronx segment alone the D-train carries about 120,000-plus people every weekend, a substantial amount of people. I have not attempted to figure out how many riders the D-train handles at the 145th Street, 125th Street, 59th Street-Columbus Circle stations, or the stations along the Sixth Avenue segment. I'd still say that the D-train is carrying a substantial amount of people on the weekends. I'd use 150,000 folks as a guess-estimate between the Bronx and Midtown at least for the weekends. ------------ The Brooklyn Portion Of The D-Train: The Brooklyn portion of the D-train includes some heavy ridership stations such as Atlantic Avenue/Barclay Center, 36th Street-Fourth Avenue, the New Utrecht Avenue/62nd Street station, and the Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue complex. Attributing the weekend ridership at those transfer stations to the D-train is problematic. In 2009 those stations combined handled 78,631 riders on the weekend, and by 2014 about 103,768 riders were handled on the weekends at these transfer stations. The D-train handles a portion of these riders, but determining exactly what portion is debate-able. (Dividing the ridership number by the number of train routes served at that station is a very rough estimate.) All of the 11 Brooklyn stations that the D-train serves by itself in 2009 handled 47,465 riders on the weekends; in 2010 - 46,702 riders; 39,683 riders in 2011; 42,056 riders in 2012; 56,883 riders in 2013; and 57,955 riders in 2014. The D-train handles a substantial amount of riders on the weekends. Along the Brooklyn portion of the line, I am guessing that between Brooklyn and Manhattan that about 65-80,000 riders is carried by the D-train each weekend. ------------ The Weekend Central Park West Segment: There have been a couple of ideas floating around that want to a) extend the M-train to 145th Street, or to make the D-train local along Central Park West. This is usually meant to mean that the local stations between 59th Street-Columbus Circle and 145th Street would receive more service than what the current C-train provides on the weekends. The following weekend ridership numbers for the 72nd, 81st, 86th, 96th, 103rd, 110th-Cathedral Parkway, 116th, and 135th Street stations were totaled, since these stations are serviced by the C-trains on the weekends. On the weekends in 2009 these stations handled 67,345 riders, 73,236 riders in 2010, 70,227 riders in 2011, 73,576 riders in 2012, 77,483 riders in 2013, and by 2014 78,531 riders. A pure seat of the pants estimate that includes the express stations at 125th Street and 145th Street would suggest that the C-train handles 80,000-plus riders on the weekends. In comparison, the nearby #1 train handled between the 66th Street to 145th Street stations 157,879 weekend riders in 2009, about 146,351 riders in 2010, 160,506 riders in 2011, 169,093 riders in 2012, about 170,825 riders in 2013, and lastly 159,054 riders in 2014. Needless to say, but the 72nd Street and 96th Street stations handled a combined 89,967 riders in 2009 and up to 113,292 weekend riders by 2014. This is easily double or more riders than what is carried on Central Park West. A pure seat of the pants estimate that includes the express stations would put the weekend west-side #1 ridership along a "Central Park West-like region" at easily 200,000 riders on the weekends. This number is very much higher than any of the weekend ridership numbers reported in this message. Funny how there are never or rarely any proposals or debates to beef up weekend service on the #1 line! Considering the amount of debate and consternation, you'd think that the Central Park West stations were the most used! THEY ARE NOT! I think that if we're going to propose ideas that beef up service it should be at the stations that have heavy ridership allowing the expensive benefits go to plenty of riders, not to fewer riders. And just for the sake of it - did you notice that the D-train Bronx section carries more riders on the weekends than the Central Park West segment? Meaning that substantial numbers of D-trains riders would be affected by making the D-train local. Proposals to improve subway service should not make the subways WORSE for substantial numbers of people! ----------- The Weekend C-train In Brooklyn: It is rare to see proposals that C-train service get beefed up or made more frequent appear on this forum. That not only would help C-train riders on the westside but also in Brooklyn! At the 9 local Brooklyn stations, in 2009 the C-train handled 40,561 riders - that number went up to 51,050 riders by 2014. We should also note that the Broadway Junction, Euclid Avenue, High Street, Hoyt-Schermerhorn, Jay Street-MetroTech, Nostrand Avenue and Utica Avenue stations together added an additional 88,560 riders in 2009 up to 113,244 riders by 2014. Now how to properly apportion those riders between the A, C, F and G, J, L and S trains might be difficult. A pure seat of the pants guess-estimate could easily say that the C-train carries about 60,000 riders each weekend. This means that the C-train easily carries a good number of riders on both its Brooklyn (about 60,000 riders weekends) and its Central Park West segments (about 80,000 riders weekends)! The Central Park segment has a slight bit of higher ridership numbers compared to the Brooklyn local stations of the C-train. However the #1 train on the west-side carries MORE THAN TWICE AS MANY riders overall. Transit improvement dollars are limited - now just where would you spend your limited funds for the most bang per buck? ------------ The Weekend M-train Segment: The M-train segment on the weekends (its Broadway Brooklyn and Queens segment) handles a MUCH lower amount of riders compared to the Bronx segment of the D-train, or the Brooklyn segment of the D-train. I'd look at the numbers for the F-train at a later date. The segment of the M-train from Central Avenue to Metropolitan Avenue as listed in the MTA's Average Weekend (Saturday + Sunday) Subway Ridership for the years handled 20,823 riders in 2009; 14,928 riders in 2010; 21,157 riders in 2011; 15,966 riders in 2012; 13.844 riders in 2013 and 18,717 riders in 2014. These numbers are WAY lower than C-train Brooklyn local only stations handles on the weekends! Please note that I left out the Myrtle Avenue-Wyckoff Station that the L and M share. While some of these M-train stations were closed for renovation work, the span of time still allows trends to discerned. If even HALF of the ridership of the Myrtle Avenue-Wyckoff Station were attributed to the M-train, that would add an additional 9,389 riders in 2009 to 13,673 riders in 2014. I do not KNOW the breakdown of riders at that station that would choose an M-train over an L-train, or an L-train over a M-train on the weekends. I suspect that some or many M-train riders transfer to/from the L-train at that station. The segment of the J and M trains from the Broadway/Myrtle Avenue station to the Marcy Avenue stations handled 38,928 riders in 2009; 42,355 riders in 2010; 45,406 riders in 2011; 44,347 riders in 2012; 45,817 riders in 2013; and 44,029 riders in 2014. (I believe that riders at these stations would catch the first train that came by. Currently the weekend M-train was to end at Essex Street, but in prior years only the J-train traveled this segment on the weekends.) Adding both segments together means that the J and M trains handled 59,751 riders in 2009 up to 62,746 riders in 2014. The figure of 66,563 riders in 2011 is the highest amount of riders carried by these segments over the weekends, and could be referred to as the "best weekend ridership". These numbers are about what the C-train handles at its Brooklyn local only stations on the weekend! (Please note that I'm leaving out completely the portion of the J-train from Kosciuszko Street to Archer Avenue, because this discussion so far has centered on M-train usage and the benefits TO M-train riders. On the weekends the J-train travels to/from the same main-line stations as the M-train, offering no real benefit for riders transferring to/from the F-train at Essex/Delancey Street. In fact the J-train by traveling further downtown offers transfers to other eastside transit lines and the Canal Street complex.) The same table also shows that the Essex/Delancey Street station handled 25,036 weekend riders in 2009, and by 2014 only 32,364 riders. That is a good amount of folks but that number has to be distributed to the weekend F, J and M lines, and it does not account for transfers among those lines at that station. ----------- The Bottom Line: Even the best weekend ridership of the J and M trains - 66,563 riders in 2011 (that covers the main portion of the weekend Brooklyn & Queens segment of the M-train) is substantially LESS than the lowest ridership of the Bronx segment of the D-train at 123,087 riders without counting the Yankee Stadium station. The bottom line is simple - the D-train simply carries MUCH MORE weekend riders than the weekend J & M-train segment. Even if one looked at only the Brooklyn portion of the D-train, and compared its "best weekend" number with the "best number" weekend of the J/M segment - that would mean 66,563 riders in 2011 compared to about 80,000 riders on the D-train. Again using the best weekend ridership of the J and M trains - 66,563 riders in 2011, the amount of weekend C-train riders with both its Brooklyn and CPW segments still handles MORE weekend ridership than the J/M segment studied. It is highly debatable that extending the M-train to CPW will be helping the C-train in terms of ridership numbers. As I said WAY MORE D-train riders would be impacted by the suggested changes and expansion of the M-train to West 4th Street then would benefit by riding the M-train. Changes to the D-train's operation would affect MORE riders than what the J/M trains carry - the basic point that I made earlier! I simply do not have the resources to be more precise about the D-train weekend ridership segments. I have produced the evidence that supported my contention that MORE riders on the D-train would be affected by either one or both of the proposed changes. In addition, while I have not looked at how the proposed changes would affect F-train riders - it is plain to see that the F-train carries a substantial weekend ridership. It would be difficult to believe that the weekend F-train ridership would be lower that the Brooklyn/Queens M-train segment. Hence substantial numbers of F-train riders would be affected by the delays in service that switching D-trains into and out of the pathway of F-trains would entail. So yes, very fewer people riding the weekend M=train would benefit from the proposed ideas, while the large substantial numbers of riders on the C-train, D-train, and the F-train would be affected by the proposals offered so far. Just being me! Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Jun 24 03:12:00 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 24 03:02:15 2015. Let me just toss in a thought here FWIW. The IND has NEVER served CPW all that well, primarily because is borders on a park and the distance between the avenues is such that there never really was all that much demand on CPW local stops aside from perhaps the Museum and Planetarium stops. And the IND never really ran much local service there since the beginning. Residents of the upper west side KNOW they're stuck with the IRT there and it works for them. Always has.Now ... I'm a Bronx boy and the D train was never any real great shakes either. If you were lucky enough to have one show up before you started hoofing it, the LAST thing you were going to accept was being shunted onto the local tracks all the way downtown. When I lived in the Bronx, I was aghast when I moved upstate only to learn that the trip to the city from Poughkeepsie wasn't all that much longer than taking the train out of the Bronx before you got downtown. I won't pass judgement on OP here, but Bronx residents would be cutting somebody's ass if the D train became a local. Seriously ... bring back the AA and be done with it. :) |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Jun 24 06:33:37 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 24 03:02:15 2015. You are going though a lot of elaboration to say that shitty service brings shitty results. We can kill the D and make the West End line a Shuttle TT, tell everyone to transfer to the N, then the West End Line would do no better than the Myrtle.The more the M extended into Manhattan, the better it would do. You forgot about people within a stop of two of Myrtle / Wyckoff who take the L rather than the M to avoid Essex Street or schleps to Chambers Street to get where they are going. The L is overcrowded. 90 seconds added running time to the D for 14th and 23rd is totally inconsequential, regardless of its ridership and is nothing compared to the GO's they keep doing, such as Sea Beach reroutes. The operating costs for the M remain constant - it goes to W4th rather than Chambers. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 24 11:12:34 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Joe V on Wed Jun 24 06:33:37 2015. From a previous message:"The more the M extended into Manhattan, the better it would do. You forgot about people within a stop of two of Myrtle / Wyckoff who take the L rather than the M to avoid Essex Street or schleps to Chambers Street to get where they are going. The L is overcrowded." No, I did not forget about the L and M transfer station at Myrtle / Wyckoff. As I clearly stated it was a bit difficult to try to determine how many M-train riders would remain on the M-train to/from Manhattan or use the L-train to/from Manhattan. In any case suggesting that "loads" of M-train riders change to the L-train for their trips both to/from Manhattan under-cuts the idea the weekend M-trains need to be further extended because it is carrying "huge loads" of people. The Myrtle Avenue-Wyckoff Station handled about 18,777 riders in 2009, by 2014 handled 27,345 riders for the weekends. Like you I suspect that the majority of those riders use the L-train, and its excellent transfers to other lines. In any case, the presence of the Myrtle Avenue-Wyckoff Station under-cuts the idea that the weekend M-train NEEDS to be extended to West 4th Street. Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 24 11:30:37 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Jun 24 03:12:00 2015. From a previous message:"Let me just toss in a thought here FWIW. The IND has NEVER served CPW all that well, primarily because is borders on a park and the distance between the avenues is such that there never really was all that much demand on CPW local stops aside from perhaps the Museum and Planetarium stops. And the IND never really ran much local service there since the beginning. Residents of the upper west side KNOW they're stuck with the IRT there and it works for them. Always has." Considering the amount of debate and consternation, and multiple repeated proposals on the forum to "expand" weekend service on Central Park West - you would think that the segment is handling huge amounts of riders! It clearly is not, as compared to the nearby IRT subway! It is the repeated upon repeated attempts to "in my words tear up the subway map" to achieve results that benefit fewer riders, and that at the same time make trips for plenty of other riders more difficult! Yes, the built and adapted IND subway is in some ways a very flexible arrangement of tracks and stations. Some say it was over-built, over-engineered and designed - but that's an argument for another day. I do not really know if a part of the push behind such proposals is about "flexing the muscles" of the subways just to see what can be done. As if the current arrangement of routes is "boring" and needs a set of bold new colors for the spring season. In any case, there are huge substantial numbers of riders using the D-train in the Bronx and Brooklyn, the C-train in Manhattan and Brooklyn, the A-train, the F-train, even the J and M trains. These numbers represent the expressed needs of the riders - even on the weekends. If each of these riders were to use a car instead of the subways - NYC would be very traffic choked. Just my thoughts. Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jun 24 11:30:42 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 24 03:02:15 2015. Some number of 7th Avenue/Broadway passengers might take the IND on CPW if there were more local trains or a direct ride to 6th Avenue on weekends. Your analysis doesn't account for that fact. Also, is it the goal of transit to provide the fastest trip possible or should speed sometimes be sacrificed in the name of increasing mobility? In the case of CPW, I'd say the answer to that question is yes, and the Concourse riders can deal (or perhaps benefit). |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jun 24 11:34:27 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 24 11:12:34 2015. It isn't like the L has tons of excess capacity. It is running every 4-5 minutes on the weekends. You want to put even more people on the L? Running the M to Essex at a minimum decreases the number of people who might change to the L at Wyckoff. Ideally, the M would run to either Queens Plaza or 71st Ave (NOT 145th) on weekends, but until then, the service to Essex is a reasonable terminal for that line on the weekends. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jun 24 11:38:59 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 24 11:30:37 2015. Considering the amount of debate and consternation, and multiple repeated proposals on the forum to "expand" weekend service on Central Park West - you would think that the segment is handling huge amounts of riders! It clearly is not, as compared to the nearby IRT subway! Has it occurred to you the lower ridership on CPW might partially be due to the fact that it gets a C train every 10 minutes, when the 1 operates every 8 minutes and the 2/3 are on a combined 6 minute headway? |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Jun 24 12:27:55 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jun 24 11:38:59 2015. That's clearly a factor, though maybe only a small one. If you're on Columbus, the strong temptation is to walk to Broadway, not CPW.It's certainly the case that the 1/2/3 is the closer subway for a substantial majority of UWS residents. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by AlM on Wed Jun 24 12:29:04 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jun 24 11:34:27 2015. The L has plenty of excess capacity on weekends. Just not at Bedford Ave at 9 AM on a weekday morning. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jun 24 12:38:59 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by AlM on Wed Jun 24 12:27:55 2015. Right, but let's say I needed to go from 96th and Columbus to Rockefeller Center on a weekend. I could take the 1 to 50th and walk, but I'd probably opt for the D on CPW and do the walking on the UWS where it is more pleasant to do so than deal with the crowds in Midtown if I had the choice. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Jun 24 13:15:29 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 24 11:12:34 2015. With your logic, we don't need the Sea Beach Line or West End Line to go to Manhattan. They can ride the Shuttle on one or change at 62nd-New Utrecht to the other.You have made no business case for sending the M to Chambers as opposed to W4th, simply caving to lazy service planning and dispatching. As I said, Shitty Service = Shitty Loads. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 24 13:41:15 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jun 24 11:30:42 2015. From a previous message:"Some number of 7th Avenue/Broadway passengers might take the IND on CPW if there were more local trains or a direct ride to 6th Avenue on weekends. Your analysis doesn't account for that fact." I concede that I do not have "origin and destination" information. However such information is not as plentiful as it supposed. Informed observation as to make due. For several decades, the basic weekend pattern of Sixth Avenue and Eighth Avenue service has existed. Weekend riders along Central Park West KNOW to change at 59th Street-Columbus Circle if they wanted Sixth Avenue service. The 59th Street-Columbus Circle is a major transfer station, and many riders transfer between trains. Riders transferring from one train to another is a basic fact of transit life. Not every option can be offered at all times. There are always competing priorities. It can easily be inferred that some #4 Bronx train riders might want to get off on East 23rd Street during the weekday or weekend day-times. So far, nobody here has ever repeatedly suggested that #4 trains be made local all through Manhattan every weekend just because of the possibility such a rider exists. I wonder why? Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Jun 24 13:46:08 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 24 13:41:15 2015. Then what you are saying is that we have done it this way for decades, therefore, no need to change. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 24 13:52:39 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jun 24 11:34:27 2015. From a previous message:"You want to put even more people on the L?" Maybe I was not clear. I confess that I can be wordy and long-winded. I do not necessarily WANT to "do" anything! a) I do not believe that the D-train should be made local along Central Park West (as some have proposed) because the D-train is carrying/servicing a huge amount of riders on its Bronx segment that be would inconvenienced by taking on the additional local stations! Why make the longer distance-higher ridership route take on more local stations? Often the longer distance routes tend to run express in Manhattan. This is a case of leaving "well enough" alone! b) I do not believe that extending the M-train (as some have proposed) to the West 4th Street station on weekends would benefit many riders. I believe that such an operation would negatively affect the higher ridership carrying D and F trains. I argue that the fewer numbers of M-train riders might benefit, but the HUGE numbers of D and F trains would be negatively impacted. This is a case of leaving "well enough" alone! Both the D-train and the F-train are straight-railed through Sixth Avenue. What is efficient about mixing these trains? What is efficient about adding a short-turned shuttle that means that these trains will now cross the paths of other trains. This is a case of leaving "well enough" alone! c) I have no problem with the idea that the weekend M-train should travel to Chambers Street, or at least to Essex Street. Some opposed the weekend M-train to Chambers Street as the "orange train" on the "brown segment" confusing riders. The M-train to Chambers Street is a "historical pattern." Transferring at Essex/Delancey Street is also a "historical pattern." Neither of these should be "big deal". I'd run the "weekend Brown-M train" if it were to travel to/from Chambers Street to help J/M riders, while not interfering with other riders. d) I can see the argument that many M-train riders in Brooklyn/Queens segment probably transfer to/from the L-train at Myrtle-Wyckoff Avenues. I suppose that such transfers have been going on for decades, for example when the M-train was a whole weekend shuttle operation. The operations of the L-train were not the focus of the original message. I'm delighted that the L-train has much higher ridership and frequent service. I remember the days on the L-train when for multiple weekends and late nights the service was disrupted repeatedly for months on end. I remember the series of bus substitutions and other major travel headaches. I remember when the TA would report that local service would be running every 24 minutes between trains, and the shuttle buses did not show up. The L-train becoming a highly used beneficial line to me is a plus! Just my thoughts. Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 24 13:58:16 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jun 24 11:38:59 2015. I lived on the C-train line in Brooklyn, so yes, I remember the long waits for trains. The cueing up trains waiting to enter Hoyt-Schermerhorn or exiting the Canal Street station on the journeys to work, or attempting to get home.Or watching A-trains running fast on the express tracks while you're waiting for the C-local station still hoping that the C-train would show up. I would truly LOVE to see the C-train service beefed up greatly, because it helps Brooklyn riders at the local stations, especially because in Brooklyn there are few alternative lines just a couple of blocks over. Beefing up C-train service is something that is almost never a discussion here! Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jun 24 14:00:35 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 24 13:41:15 2015. The 6 is quite frequent when compared to the C. Most of the "make this express train run local" suggestions on this board come from situations where there are two expresses and one infrequent local on a given stretch of track, or the few cases where in the overnight hours trains still run express as the MTA has converted all those routes to locals. Therefore, no one will be advocating to run the 4, 5, and 6 on the local track each and every weekend, but the idea of running the D local on CPW or having two locals on Queens Boulevard on weekends are going to be popular suggestions because there are merits that can justify such changes. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jun 24 14:05:02 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 24 13:52:39 2015. According to the timetables on the MTA website, the express from 125th to 59th is 2 minutes shorter than the local. So you're suggesting that in order to save two minutes for some people on a one way trip, that others should have to wait up to 10 minutes for a train to arrive and then transfer? And never mind the people who are coming from the Bronx who want to go to a CPW local station. My guess is that the overall time savings are not as significant as some imagine. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 24 14:10:59 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Joe V on Wed Jun 24 13:46:08 2015. If the weekend ridership on the subways was the same amounts of ridership during the weekdays - a good case could be made for having the same weekday route patterns on the weekends.Then you'd could have your B-trains, your M-trains, your #6 and #7 express trains, another routes running on the weekends. If the pure cost of the whole enterprise were ZERO, and buying new robot-controlled trains were as simple picking them up from the local Walmart - as many things could be done. If there were huge worms that could create subway sized tunnels through the bedrock of NYC, and the worms just ate the rats in the tunnels for food - so many new easily built lines could be created. It is a fantasy world, but so what! The real historical truth is that there ARE FEWER riders on the weekends, and much less ridership during the midnight hours. Meaning a corresponding reduction in services - on weekends and midnight hours. The truth is that trains need maintenance and repair, subway stations need to be cleaned. There are times when the trains are not filled with riders stuffed like sardines. At times there are fewer riders - just a plain truth. Since there are less riders on the weekends or midnight hours, there has to be a balancing act of what to offer, shuttles, transfers, etc. We simply do not have robot trains, or robot-controlled automated systems that fix and clean the trains, repairs the tracks & stations. Not everybody can always get what they want all the time. Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jun 24 14:16:28 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 24 14:10:59 2015. Right, and the proposal for reducing services on the weekends is to reduce express services that bypass stations. That's how most systems do it. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 24 14:49:11 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jun 24 14:00:35 2015. There is the very simple suggestion of beefing up C-train service, and beefing up R-train service. I again make the suggestion.More frequent C and R train service in Queens, Manhattan and Brooklyn benefits riders who have fewer alternatives, without requiring scarifices upon riders on D, E and F express routes. Why burden the higher ridership D-trains, E-trains or F-trains - the longer distance lines to take on additional stations. It is a case of "everybody wins." Such simple proposals get no traction here as compared to the "grand scheme" of spaghetti-type re-arrangements. The usual practice is to invent some un-wieldy scheme sending trains this way and that helps few riders at great cost. Very simple suggestions of having more frequent C and R train service - do not get any traction here. Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Jun 24 14:49:58 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jun 24 14:05:02 2015. For reasons less than that, we killed the 1/9 skip stop. Intervals between trains exceeded time saved. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Jun 24 14:54:24 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 24 14:10:59 2015. Of course there are fewer riders on weekends - there is no rush hour. But some weekend services are just as crowded as mid-day weekdays.We do not need "robot trains" to increase weekend service. Sending the M, a low budget 4 car OPTO train, to W4th costs no more than sending to Chambers. Again, what you are coming up with are lame excuses, not reasons. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 24 14:56:45 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Joe V on Wed Jun 24 06:33:37 2015. From a previous message:"We can kill the D and make the West End line a Shuttle TT, tell everyone to transfer to the N, then the West End Line would do no better than the Myrtle." There is a very good reason for the Chrystie Street project allowing former southern BMT lines access to Sixth Avenue stations and service. The idea of having the D-train travel from the Bronx to Coney Island remains a cherished idea. For a good period of time, the West-End line on the weekends was a shuttle operation with I believe the TT. However in recent years, the ridership has increased and the local residents demanded full-time service to Manhattan, in a way that connects communities. Very good cases can be made for certain arrangements of service over other patterns. Some of the transit facilities are very flexible while others are not as flexible in their offerings. Astoria has to be serviced from the 60th Street tunnel, Rockaway trains have to use the A-line in Brooklyn, etc. There can indeed be very good reasons for the creation of certain subway train routes. It's a baby and bath water scenario. Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Jun 24 15:03:19 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 24 14:49:11 2015. Because making locals out of expresses is cheaper than running more locals. As has been shown, CPW Expresses saves 2 minutes. They would have to add 1 D train to circulation. But to do any meaningful step-up to C service needs a lot more than 1 more trainset. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by localacrosstheplatform on Wed Jun 24 17:21:58 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by AlM on Wed Jun 24 12:27:55 2015. False - at least in my good experience. As someone who lives at Columbus, I would almost always prefer to take a train from CPW. I'm not "tempted" to walk to Broadway. I do it because service is such garbage on the weekends. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Jun 24 20:26:07 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jun 24 14:05:02 2015. "According to the timetables on the MTA website, the express from 125th to 59th is 2 minutes shorter than the local. "That fact alone is a scheduling crime. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Jun 24 20:36:13 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jun 24 14:05:02 2015. Not sure where you get the 2 minutes. On Saturdays (we are dealing with weekends in this thread), the C is scheduled at 12 minutes and the D at 8 minutes. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Wed Jun 24 20:54:28 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Wallyhorse on Sun Jun 21 02:52:25 2015. (M) to Chambers gives a transfer to the (4),(5), and (6) and is a better terminal than (M) to W 4th St. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 24 23:02:57 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by italianstallion on Wed Jun 24 20:36:13 2015. From a previous message:" ... the C is scheduled at 12 minutes and the D at 8 minutes." Beefing up C-train service - making C-trains more frequent - is something that is almost never discussed here! Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Wed Jun 24 23:40:38 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by italianstallion on Wed Jun 24 20:36:13 2015. (C) runs 10 minutes during the daytime weekends, 12 minutes later in the day and evenings. (D) runs 10 minutes weekend daytime, 12 minutes later in the day and evenings. (2), (3), and (5) run 12 minutes all weekend (worse than the (C)). |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Jun 25 07:10:19 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by randyo on Tue Jun 23 13:00:51 2015. I know that very well and that IS what I meant. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Jun 25 07:13:42 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 23 15:10:23 2015. The problem is, you are dealing with an exploding population in Williamsburg and Middle Village who in many cases are looking for Midtown service on the (M) and have an easier transfer at Broadway-Lafayette and West 4th (and to the 8th Avenue line at West 4). Unless you want to send the (M) to 71-Continental 24/7 (or to 145 on weekends), West 4th is probably about as good a compromise as you can have. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Thu Jun 25 11:39:39 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 23 12:05:12 2015. It could be done if ONLY the northbound track at W 4th St. was used to terminate the M. The headways involved would allow it to be done that way. The only reason to run the southbound D local on 6th Ave. then would be so the uptown and downtown service patterns matched.But WHY can't they restore the switch from the southbound local to the express south of B'way-Lafayette? The levels of the two tracks can't be that different there. If the switch had to be on a slight incline, so be it. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Thu Jun 25 11:45:57 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Dyre Dan on Thu Jun 25 11:39:39 2015. No, I'm wrong. Of course they would have to relay north of W. 4th, so there would be an operational reason that the southbound D couldn't run express. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Jun 25 13:45:30 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Wed Jun 24 23:40:38 2015. This thread is about improving weekend service. Only the weekend runs are relevant. The D runs 4 minutes faster than the C on weekend days from 125 to 59. -- not 2 minutes faster. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Jun 25 13:47:02 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by italianstallion on Thu Jun 25 13:45:30 2015. I was responding to this statement - "According to the timetables on the MTA website, the express from 125th to 59th is 2 minutes shorter than the local."This statement is wrong. This thread is about improving weekend service. Only the weekend runs are relevant. The D runs 4 minutes faster than the C on weekend days from 125 to 59. -- not 2 minutes faster. Why is everyone misunderstanding my point? |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jun 25 14:40:31 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Dyre Dan on Thu Jun 25 11:39:39 2015. The reason the switch was removed in the first place is due to the upgrade that starts at the immediate south end of the station and is too great to allow for aXover there. I have often wondered why the grade couldn’t have been started south of the switch but the TA engineers probably though that the grade to get up over the S/B lcl tk would have been too steep. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Jun 25 14:48:15 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Dyre Dan on Thu Jun 25 11:39:39 2015. The area between the Broadway-Lafayette station and the Second Avenue until the building of the Chrystie Street set of tracks consisted of 5 tracks.Many IND local-express stations had there switch arrangements in the following pattern. A train would have to arrive at the platform BEFORE it could be switched to another track. This pattern is seen at Queens Plaza, Roosevelt Avenue, 71-Continental Avenues, Canal Street, Utica Avenue, Broadway-East New York IND subway stations. This pattern was also present at the Broadway-Lafayette Street station where over the decades certain routes ended their run at Broadway-Lafayette. The plan to build the Chyrstie Street connection was to use the central 3 tracka as a) Manhattan-bound K/M track from Essex Street connecting directly to the Manhattan-bound F-track from Second Avenue, and b) the former center track as the Manhattan-bound B/D track from Grand Avenue and the Manhattan Bridge, and c) the Brooklyn-bound B/D to Grand Avenue and the Manhattan Bridge. These 3 tracks have to lower and curve down and duck under the F-track bound FOR Second Avenue. Basically that F-track has to take a hike to allow the other tracks to pass under it. Just before the Second Avenue station, there is a switch and track that allows the Brooklyn-bound K/M trains head to the Essex Street station. In order to build these Chrystie Street connections that lead to the Manhattan Bridge and the Williamburg Bridge, the switch between the local and express tracks east of the Broadway-Lafayette Street (the downtown side) had to be removed. Thus the track switch NORTH of the West 4th Street station is a VERY IMPORTANT location for "downtown" bound B, D, F and M trains. They cannot "restore the switch" because upon leaving the Broadway-Lafayette station the F-train is rising to allow the B & D trains (and the Manhattan-bound K/M trains) to pass under it. The tracks are ON different levels! Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Jun 25 16:09:32 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Wed Jun 24 23:40:38 2015. Your comment about the 2, 3, and 5 is meaningless. The 2/3 has a combined 6 minute headway for a large portion of their routes. The 2/5 has a combined 6 minute headway in the Bronx. The C still has a 10 minute headway for all of its length on weekends and aside from the E at a few stations and the A in the Cranberry Tube, shares with no other line. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Jun 25 16:09:42 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by italianstallion on Wed Jun 24 20:36:13 2015. From the timetables on the MTA website. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jun 25 16:26:56 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 24 23:02:57 2015. Yes, it has been discussed here. Most of us agree that the "C" needs more frequent service and 10 cars, every 10 minutes, instead of 8 cars every 12 minutes. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Thu Jun 25 17:19:41 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jun 25 16:26:56 2015. its a pain with those headways on weekends. I was picking up my sister from a playdate and we paid our fare and then she realized that she had forgotten something came so I went with her to look for it without success, then I had to wait for a long time for another train. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jun 25 17:28:18 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Wed Jun 24 20:54:28 2015. Better for East Side, worse for West Side. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Thu Jun 25 17:38:11 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by italianstallion on Wed Jun 24 20:36:13 2015. http://web.mta.info/nyct/service/pdf/tccur.pdfhttp://web.mta.info/nyct/service/pdf/tdcur.pdf Most of weekend daytime the (C) and (D) scheduled to have the same level of service. The (D) headway was increased from 8 to 10 minutes in the 2010 service cuts. |
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