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| Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights (1356072) | |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Thu Jun 25 18:02:21 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Jun 25 16:09:32 2015. The post that I was responding to said that the (C) runs 12 minute headways on the weekends, only the (2), (3), and (5) have that level of service all weekend. Even other lines that share portions of their routes with other lines run at least 10 minutes on Saturday daytime.MTA's own guidelines actually call for 10 minute minimum headways on Saturday daytime, so they violate their own guidelines with the (2), (3), and (5). http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/39850-nyct-loading-guidelines-and-policy-headways/ Weekday Rush Hours, Weekday Middays, and Saturday Middays If service is provided, it should operate at least every 10 minutes. Weekday Evenings, Saturday Evenings, and All Day on Sunday If service is provided, it should operate at least every 12 minutes Late Nights (1 a.m. – 5 a.m.) If service is provided, it should operate at least every 20 minutes |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Kevin from Midwood on Thu Jun 25 18:20:41 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Thu Jun 25 18:02:21 2015. That post wasn't about headways; it was about scheduled running time between 125th and 59th.
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Thu Jun 25 19:12:01 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Thu Jun 25 18:02:21 2015. Ignore the part about the (C) running 12 minute headways in my previous post.. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jun 25 19:16:44 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Thu Jun 25 14:48:15 2015. You have it backwards. The B/D/M tracks rise OVER the F track not below it. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Thu Jun 25 19:23:37 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jun 24 14:05:02 2015. The running time on weekends of the (D) is usually 3-4 minutes faster than the (C) from 59 - 125 Sts, enough time to make or miss a connection with another line. The savings is worth keeping the (D) express on the weekends. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Thu Jun 25 19:33:54 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Jun 25 16:09:32 2015. Ignore the part about the (C) having 12 minute headways.The (C) is actually scheduled for 11-12 minutes from 59 - 125 Sts and the (D) is scheduled for 8 minutes. It is still a savings of 3-4 minutes that will be lost if the (D) is running local (even more if there are museum crowds on the platform). Expanding the (C) to 10 cars would be better than making the (D) run local. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Thu Jun 25 19:39:50 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by italianstallion on Wed Jun 24 20:36:13 2015. (C) northbound runs on Sundays are scheduled for 11 minutes from 59 - 125, the (D) saves at least 3 minutes here, still enough time to make the express run worthwhile. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jun 25 19:54:05 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Jun 25 07:13:42 2015. Wallyhorse, you are left with 2 choices: Queens Plaza (already discussed) or the switchover just east of 53/Lex (not discussed). |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Jun 25 19:56:09 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Thu Jun 25 19:39:50 2015. How do you determine "worthwhile"? What about for the people at the local stations along the way who just have 6 C trains each hour? |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Jun 25 19:58:02 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Thu Jun 25 19:23:37 2015. If the D ran local, the number of connections people would need to make might be minimized. Also, people can adjust to the new schedules accordingly if they really believe in timed transfers. You have yet to identify what "savings" justify having only 6 TPH at the CPW local stations and how running the C more frequently is less expensive to the MTA than running the D local. (The last one is going to be hard to do seeing as one extra D trainset will cost much less than running additional C trains.) |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Thu Jun 25 19:59:47 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Jun 25 19:56:09 2015. Connections with other trains/buses. Concourse riders have the same wait for their train on weekends and there are more total paid fares at Concourse stations than along the CPW local stations, so one could use that argument to support the (D) CPW express. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Jun 25 20:08:18 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by randyo on Thu Jun 25 19:16:44 2015. Thanks, I stand corrected.Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Thu Jun 25 20:17:19 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Jun 25 19:58:02 2015. The (C) being 10 cars is another solution. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Jun 25 20:18:10 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Thu Jun 25 19:59:47 2015. Connections with other trains/buses.People will adjust. By this logic, schedules should never change, ever. here are more total paid fares at Concourse stations than along the CPW local stations As it has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, running additional local service on CPW may result in increased ridership at those stations. Also, the subway arguably exists to increase mobility throughout the city, including CPW, even if it costs Concourse riders 5 minutes each round trip. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Jun 25 20:19:06 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Thu Jun 25 20:17:19 2015. What is the benefit to running the C every 10 minutes on the weekend using 10 car trains rather than 8 car trains? The issue with the CPW local on weekends isn't crowding, it is that the trains come infrequently. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jun 25 22:19:23 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Jun 25 20:19:06 2015. I'm talking about "C" service along Fulton Street in Brooklyn. Infrequent trains and overcrowding, weekdays and weekends. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Jun 25 22:34:45 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Thu Jun 25 14:48:15 2015. Man...did you jack that up.But,I got to hand it to you....you do go all out to make your point. Persistence pays off. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Jun 25 22:51:54 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Kevin from Midwood on Thu Jun 25 18:20:41 2015. Right, and the D saves 4 minutes, not 2. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Jun 25 22:53:02 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Jun 25 16:09:42 2015. Well, that's where I got my data - for Saturday, which is when we are talking about. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Jun 25 22:53:55 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Thu Jun 25 17:38:11 2015. Who the hell is talking about headway? We are talking the scheduled run from 125 to 59. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Jun 25 23:35:33 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Edwards! on Thu Jun 25 22:34:45 2015. Thanks.In attempting to answer that question I referred to my copy of "Tracks Of The Subway" by Peter Dougherty. While I was correct about the history of the track changes and what was done, I messed up on which tracks were "over" or "under" the other. The basic point why there is not a switch at the location was due to the changing track levels. Learning new stuff is good. Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Jun 25 23:57:34 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by randyo on Thu Jun 25 19:16:44 2015. In light of Randyo, I'm correcting the statement made prior.------------- The area between the Broadway-Lafayette station and the Second Avenue until the building of the Chrystie Street set of tracks consisted of 5 tracks. Many IND local-express stations had their switch arrangements in the following pattern. A train would have to arrive at the platform BEFORE it could be switched to another track. This pattern is seen at the Queens Plaza, Roosevelt Avenue, 71-Continental Avenues, Canal Street, Utica Avenue, Broadway-East New York IND subway stations. This pattern was also present at the Broadway-Lafayette Street station where over the decades certain routes ended their run at Broadway-Lafayette. The plan to build the Chyrstie Street connection used the central 3 tracka as a) Manhattan-bound K/M track from Essex Street connecting directly to the Manhattan-bound F-track from Second Avenue, and b) used the former center track as the Manhattan-bound B/D track from Grand Avenue and the Manhattan Bridge, and c) the Brooklyn-bound B/D to Grand Avenue and the Manhattan Bridge. These 3 tracks ARE RAISED TO CROSS OVER the F-track bound FOR Second Avenue. Just before the Second Avenue station, there is a switch and track that exits the Brooklyn-bound F-track that allows the Brooklyn-bound K/M trains head to the Essex Street station. In order to build the Chrystie Street connections that lead to the Manhattan Bridge and the Williamburg Bridge, the switch between the local and express tracks east of the Broadway-Lafayette Street (the downtown side) had to be removed. Thus the track switch NORTH of the West 4th Street station is a VERY IMPORTANT SWITCH location for "downtown" bound B, D, F and M trains. They cannot "restore the switch" because upon leaving the Broadway-Lafayette station the local and express tracks change to different levels. Thanks for the correction. Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jun 26 01:10:18 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jun 25 19:54:05 2015. The reason I have not brought up Queens Plaza and 53rd Lex is the same reason I would NOT use 57th/6th as a terminal: It interferes with other lines.West 4th does interfere somewhat, but not NEARLY as much because you can have the (D) and (M) switch tracks between Broadway-Lafayette and West 4th going north (with the (D) switching back between 34th and 42nd) and southbound, the (D) switching to the local between 42nd and 34th and back to the express track north of West 4th while the (M) switches to the express track north of Broadway-Lafayette and uses the northbound express track at West 4th to terminate (and fumigate), then uses the express tunnel to switch before switching to the local track north of West 4th to begin back to Metropolitan. If you want to have it go to a spot it can terminate on weekends/late nights without interference and 71-Continental is not available, then 145 would be the spot to do it, which gives CPW riders the bonus of a 6th Avenue local on weekends (but that is just because 145 is the easiest place to turn and not interfere for now). Long term, if you can't have the (M) terminate at 71-Continental, once the SAS opens I would seriously consider on weekends having the (M) go to 96th/2nd. That would help supplement the (Q) on weekends/late nights in a part of Manhattan that is arguably the most densely populated area of the entire country. Yes, it would confuse some having the (M) only on nights and weekends, but it gives those looking for the west side from the UES more service weekends and late nights. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 26 07:50:03 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by italianstallion on Thu Jun 25 22:51:54 2015. That is about what and E or F saves by running express on one side of Jackson Hts or the other to the next express stop. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 26 07:51:58 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu Jun 25 20:19:06 2015. It is MUCH cheaper to increase local service by a D local than adding many C train sets. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Jun 26 10:09:03 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 26 07:51:58 2015. I'm not the one you need to convince of that, it is TheGreatOne who you need to be trying to whom you need to explain this. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Jun 26 10:11:04 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by italianstallion on Thu Jun 25 22:53:02 2015. I guess I misread them the first time I looked, it looks like it is a 4 minute difference, not two. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Jun 26 10:12:05 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jun 26 01:10:18 2015. Queens Plaza does NOT significantly interfere with other lines.There is no reason to send the M to 2nd Avenue on weekends but not weekdays. Forget it. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by R30A on Fri Jun 26 10:18:50 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Jun 26 10:11:04 2015. Depends on when you look. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Jun 26 10:42:59 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Thu Jun 25 23:57:34 2015. OK, but how far up could the inner tracks go in the short distance between the south end of B'way-Laf and the point where the crossover was? The F/M tracks are level in the area (until the M splits from the F), right? And the distance between where the crossover formerly was and the point where the B/D tracks cross over the F tracks is significantly longer than from the south end of B-L station to where the crossover was? So the F/M track could be raised between the station and crossover so it's level was close enough to that of the B/D tracks to allow the crossover, then dropped down again in plenty of time to get back to the level that passes under the B/D tracks. A lot of work, yeah. A question would be how long the track would have to be closed to accomplish it. But I can't see that it could be impossible, it seems like they could have done something like that when Chrystie was originally built.Another possibility would be to add a crossover north of B'way-Laf, even if that is inconsistent with the usual IND practice. I know, adding a crossover where there never was one before presents the problem of replacing the support provided by the pillars that would have to be removed. But that can be done? |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri Jun 26 11:55:21 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Jun 26 10:42:59 2015. I confess that I do not KNOW the answers to your questions.The work was done in the mid-1960's, and there may have been issues of engineering standards, support beam issues, support street issues, and / or factors that we now are not aware of. It could also be that the existence of the switch NORTH the West 4th Street station on the downtown side did not make the switch you're suggesting an IMPERATIVE, something nice but not absolutely NEEDED. Think about the IND subways as built/expanded. On the Eighth Avenue line there are places where it would be "logical" or "rational" to have track switches between the local and express tracks. For example - 14th Street-8th Avenue or a better set at 34th Street-8th Avenue. For example, just think about the non-ability to switch local and express trains from track to track except only at Canal Street or 59th Street! Flexibility both exists and does not exist for the IND subways as built. That's not to say that improvements have not been done in my lifetime - say at 72nd Street, or north of 125th Street. Bottom line - the suggested track switch, this is a guess on my part - might not have been seen as ESSENTIAL, in light of the nearby switch at West 4th Street. That switch on the downtown side NORTH of West 4th Street was probably in REGULAR usage in light of the trains that ended at Broadway-Lafayette Street prior to the building of the Chrystie Street expansion. Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 26 12:51:24 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Fri Jun 26 11:55:21 2015. Biggest design flaw in modern times was to not configure 57th/6th like Whitehall Street. Think of all the weekend F train G.O. reroutes to 53rd Street over the last 25 years that could have been prevented, and what we now can't do with the M or the B, or whatever else needs to be short-turned for whatever reason.BMT had some foresight. IND, and therefore TA, had none. Brighton and 4th Ave locals did not often terminate at Whitehall Street, and they had LL City Hall to do so from the north, but they had the capability anyway. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jun 26 13:34:42 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 26 12:51:24 2015. Actually, as built, the Whitehall middle track was only accessible from the north. The switches at the south end were only added when City Hall master tower was built and upgraded signaling installed in the Bway Subway. Also, the IND had more foresight than the BMT and IRT in a number of ways. The reason that some parts of the IND seem to be inefficient is because some of the connections we now take for granted were added in places that were not designed for them such at the 60 St connection to Qns Blvd and Chrystie. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri Jun 26 13:46:53 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 26 12:51:24 2015. It is a two-edged sword - the building of track/switch/platforms facilities that may or may not be used, but that could be useful for "something" someday when ever that might come along. Transit building is expensive and extensive - even from the earliest days.The IND subway as built/extended has been noted as over-engineered, sometimes wasteful, and at times short-changed. All three descriptions easily apply not only to the IND system as built/extended, but even to the other BMT or IRT systems. Some things like the City Hall lower level came about because of a change in the plans. One big example is the J/Z Chambers Street station - the ideas and plans for that changed radically several times. The purpose of the "5th-track/middle track" sections along the A and C Fulton Street subway remains a good mystery. As well as the layup tracks north of 125th Street-St. Nicholas Avenue. I'm sure that there a few other examples. Or that all of the lower Manhattan East River tunnels are bi-directional between Brooklyn and Manhattan - the switches that allow either tube to be used when necessary for both directions EXCEPT the #2 and #3 tunnel! Lots of confusing round-about crazy G.O.'s would never have had to be created! Yes, plans and ideas change, and sometimes the changing money situation requires requires other changes or responses. As much as folks may WANT to complain about the 63rd Street Tunnel the early plans and goals are very different from what is being considered today. There were several plans for Second Avenue service. Stuff happens. The idea of a Whitehall Street-like station at the 72nd Street-Second Avenue to me was an intriguing idea. However finances and other issues came into play - a familar story when it comes to transit. The problem with "what-if" scenarios is that reality intrudes. There have been plenty of "fantasy transit maps" presented on the forums. Some or many have ideal or hoped for features, and maybe even some negatives. The trick is figuring out - "what we need to do", what we want to do, "what would be nice or ideal to do", "what we can not do at this time", "Is what is being proposed or built actually useful", "can we pay for it", and "whose ox gets gored when the crap hits the fan". Then there's the almighty truth - "our funds are limited - so how to get the most bang per buck!". I want a direct subway tunnel between Manhattan and Staten Island where the crossing takes 10-minutes tops, and the trains run frequently every 5 minutes. In addition the surface bus routes have clear pathways at all times, and wait times are no longer than 8 minutes between buses at any time of day/night/weekend. None of this is clearly not likely to happen! "You can't always get what you want, but sometimes you just might find you get what you need." Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 26 13:47:04 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by randyo on Fri Jun 26 13:34:42 2015. They had foresight for future routes, not short turns. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jun 26 13:48:59 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri Jun 26 10:12:05 2015. That’s correct. Turning at 57/6 requires trains to actually change ends on a mainline track whereas at Qns Plz, there is a middle track N/O the station which is a perfect place to turn trains. Overnight Gs terminated there for several years. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by VictorM on Fri Jun 26 13:49:36 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Dyre Dan on Fri Jun 26 10:42:59 2015. There's only a curtain wall separating the southbound local and express tracks at several places under Houston St west (subway north) of B'way Laf so they probably could have built a crossover going from the southbound local to the southbound express track, but they chose not to. Such a crossover would also have made it possible for a southbound D or B rerouted along 8th Av to access the Manhattan Bridge. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jun 26 17:03:54 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by randyo on Fri Jun 26 13:48:59 2015. Right.Queens Plaza would really be the best place to do it so long as it doesn't interfere with the (E) in terms of fumigating, which was why I originally brought up 145. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jun 26 17:50:31 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jun 26 17:03:54 2015. Often fumigating short turn trains on lines that have alternating through service can’t be helped. Think 177/Parkchester on the 6 and Church Av where Gs being fumigated alternate with through Fs |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Jun 27 00:27:06 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by randyo on Fri Jun 26 17:50:31 2015. True:I was just trying to avoid that with the ideas of first 145 and later using the switches West 4th to terminate the (M) on weekends/late nights (and 96th/2nd once the SAS opens since that one would supplement the (Q) on weekends and keep service at the same levels as weekdays in a highly densely populated part of Manhattan in the Upper East Side). |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Jun 27 00:32:06 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by VictorM on Fri Jun 26 13:49:36 2015. Which is why I would look at building such since it also would provide flexibility not just for G.O.'s, but also to allow for instance a late-night line that runs via 8th Avenue before subsequently using the Bridge to run to Brooklyn. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Jun 27 09:52:34 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Joe V on Fri Jun 26 12:51:24 2015. 57th-6th was a terminal for a number of years before it became a thru station, and I expect that influenced its design. How would an extra track there prevent having to divert the F to 53rd St? Better to run a thru F via 53rd than to split the F into two pieces. Anyway, they DO short-turn the M there some weekends, and it doesn't seem to interfere with thru F train service. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sat Jun 27 11:11:12 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Jun 27 09:52:34 2015. I believe the idea is that in order to allow M-trains to terminate there (say when there is a weekend G.O. on the L-train) without blocking F-trains traveling in either direction.The middle track at the Whitehall Street station allows R-trains to continue to Brooklyn unimpeded, even when weekend G.O.'s send a rare E-train, or a more usual W-train, etc. to terminate at that station. Since the 57th Street-Sixth Avenue station only has two tracks, a central platform, and a diamond crossover switch "south" of the station - an arriving M-train has to use a track that an arriving F-train will be traveling on within a few minutes. (The usual practice of the F-train is to use the 63rd Street Tunnel.) If such an M-train were to develop a problem (it can't move for some reason) the following F-train (in either direction) now has a major problem. Trains usually can not "back up" unless the following traffic has been cleared. The 57th Street-Sixth Avenue does not have flexibility in this scenario that other "short-turn" or "mid-line" terminals have. Think about it, the E-trains that terminate at Hudson Terminal-WTC in no way hamper the movement of A and C trains. Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Jun 28 10:58:31 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jun 26 17:03:54 2015. That isn't why you brought up 145th... |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sun Jun 28 13:23:04 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Jun 28 10:58:31 2015. While Wallyhorse is looking at the IND subway as built/expanded, the IRT subways on both the west-side and east-sides were not really built to "mid-line" or "short-turn" terminate trains in Manhattan easily, while letting other trains pass by. A big noted exception is the established terminals.Wallyhorse posited the existence of a train route that ends at a certain station while other train traffic continues past that station un-affected by the terminating train route. For example: on the westside there is the 42nd Dtreet-34th Street 5th-track that could allow some express trains to end their run at 42n Street, while other train traffic continues to Brooklyn. This message is not about whether it should be done, but rather if it COULD be done in a way that does not interfere with the other train traffic. Of course there's the middle track near the 103rd Street station on the #1 line, or the long-time used collection of tracks north of 137th Street, or the middle track by Dyckman Street. Besides the 145th Street and 148th Street usual terminals, #2 like trains would have to be sent to north of 149th Street-Third Avenue to turn trains around. Any further north on the @2 and #5 lines there's the regular terminals and storage places. Note that for 14th Street and Chambers Street - traffic on the express tracks has to be re-routed to use those tracks for terminate relay operations. ------- On the Lexington Avenue line, there the middle track that is north of the 59th Street upper-level local platforms. Using both 86th Street and 42nd Street-Grand Central would require or work better with continuing train traffic re-routed. While there used to be a 5th track near the Spring Street station, the usual terminals (loop tracks) at Brooklyn Bridge and Bowling Green would have suffice. Similarly as the train route travels further into Brooklyn or the Bronx, the usual terminals come into play. On the north, there are the 138th Street-Third Avenue station, the 149th Street-Grand Concourse upper level station, or the previously mentioned middle-track north of 149th Street-Third Avenue to turn trains around. While the suggestion of the built/expanded IND system flexibility has been raised, a look at the flexibility on the other lines is also a good idea. Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sun Jun 28 23:36:16 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Sun Jun 28 13:23:04 2015. Exactly:Flexibility to me is very important so that you can keep as much service going as possible when things mess up. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sun Jun 28 23:41:45 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Jun 28 10:58:31 2015. Actually, it was:The main reason I would have had the (M) terminate at 145 was because it is the closest place that allows for the (M) to terminate without interfering with the (D) or (F) and without the line going to 71st-Continental and still serve midtown on weekends (and also late nights). It's also why when the SAS opens I'd also consider having the (M) go to 96th/2nd on weekends/late nights, not to mention the bonus of having the (M) supplement the (Q) in off-hours on the SAS in arguably the most densely populated area in Manhattan. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 29 10:56:15 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Sun Jun 28 13:23:04 2015. And in doing so, Wally wants to create new routings for nights and weekends, even though simple, consistent routings are best for public use. Running the D local on CPW would address many of the issues he "solves" by running the M to 145th Street at far less cost and with far less confusion. Wally ignores the existence of the turnback track at Queens Plaza which would allow the M to run through Midtown on the weekend using its regular route and terminate somewhere that wouldn't interfere with through traffic. Let's not ignore what is really going on here. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 29 10:58:03 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Wallyhorse on Sun Jun 28 23:41:45 2015. The M can terminate at Queens Plaza if it needs to terminate somewhere other than 71st Avenue, as the G train did for many years.There is no reason to have the M supplement the Q on the SAS during off hours if the Q can handle the SAS on its own during the peak hours. That idea is ludicrous, not to mention confusing to the riding public. If there is a need for additional service between the CPW local stations and 6th Avenue, the D can provide that need for a fraction of the cost than extending the M to 145th would. Give it up already. |
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Re: A Way to Run the M to Midtown on Weekends |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Mon Jun 29 11:20:54 2015, in response to A Way to Run the M to Midtown on Weekends, posted by SLRT on Sun Jun 14 21:43:04 2015. There will be no M service on 6th Avenue on weekends and late nights because they are installing new signals on 6th Avenue |
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