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Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Apr 23 18:12:51 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by Allan on Thu Apr 23 14:18:40 2015. I agree, but like a possible Utica extension, that too would require the outermost portion of the line to be elevated since it also would going into the area with a high water table. |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Apr 23 18:15:14 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Apr 23 04:15:37 2015. If the new line were to be extended to the area of E180,it would probably make just as much sense to connect it to a modified Dyre Av Line the way the SAS was supposed to do. |
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Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Apr 23 18:16:49 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Apr 23 12:30:42 2015. I have mentioned in several posts that the High Line could have been and probably still can be used for this purpose. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Apr 23 18:41:58 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by randyo on Thu Apr 23 18:16:49 2015. the High Line could have been and probably still can be used for this purpose.It lay dormant for 30 years (1982-2002). That was the time to act. It's now the catalyst that has revitalized the meat packing district. It's now far too valuable for use as a transit right of way. Besides, there's a covenant in CSX's deed transfer to NYC - No rail transit. |
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Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Apr 23 18:42:33 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by Union Tpke on Wed Apr 22 13:31:20 2015. The problem with that is that since S4 St does not extend east of Union Av, Buildings in the way would have to be condemned and demolished in order to extend S 4 St to Stuyvesant Av and the Utica/Stuyvesant route. While such a project would have been more easily accomplished during the depression era of the 1930s as was done with 6 Av between W 4 and Canal and the through routing of Pitkin Av to South Rd in the area of (dare I say it?) 76 St the political and economic concessions today are not conducive to such a project. During the depression many of the building owners were either in poor financial shape or had abandoned their buildings outright so that condemnation was easier. Also, some parts of the IND built during the 1930s were done with federal WPA/PWA funds which are not available today. With the improved financial condition of the landlords combined with MIMBYism such a project would probably not be doable. |
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Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Apr 23 18:43:18 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Apr 22 22:01:31 2015. That’s what I said. |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Apr 23 18:47:02 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu Apr 23 15:56:56 2015. As I mentioned in my other post, that’s exactly what I am referring to. S 4 St does not extend east of Union Av so it would have to be extended east to Stuyvesant Av by demolishing buildings in the way was was done with 6 Av in Manhattan. |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Apr 23 18:53:37 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Apr 23 18:41:58 2015. Covenants can be broken by operation of law. If the feds get involved, they could simply lean on CSX to vacate the covenant since CSX is under the FRA. Additionally, the city could deed the Hight Line directly to the MTA which probably wouldn’t be bound by the initial agreement since it wasn’t party to it. |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Apr 23 18:59:38 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by JAzumah on Thu Apr 23 15:31:45 2015. However, as it was pointed out, it’s physically impossible to build a subway bin that area due to the high water table so all the money in the world won’t help. |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Apr 23 19:00:47 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by randyo on Thu Apr 23 18:53:37 2015. Additionally, the city could deed the Hight Line directly to the MTA which probably wouldn’t be bound by the initial agreement since it wasn’t party to it.That's not how covenants work. |
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Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Apr 23 19:01:16 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by pragmatist on Thu Apr 23 17:17:04 2015. One would hope that if any of the East River bridges reaches the end if its useful life, there would be the political willpower to replace it, as was the case with the Tappan Zee. |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Apr 23 19:04:42 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by Joe V on Wed Apr 22 17:25:36 2015. A Utica Av subway would probably terminate in the area of Kings Plaza which is a more useful location than the end of the Nostrand Av Line unless the Nostrand extension would swing east and continue south along Flatbush Av. |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Apr 23 19:05:59 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by randyo on Thu Apr 23 18:53:37 2015. Irrelevant. The High Line, as is, is too much of a tourist attraction an economic catalyst to change back into rail. |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Apr 23 19:08:34 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Apr 23 18:41:58 2015. "Besides, there's a covenant in CSX's deed transfer to NYC - No rail transit. "If the state (MTA) wanted to recapture the High Line Route, couldn't they just "Emenant Domain" the property & take it over? Is a "covenant" a legally binding agreement? Would it survive a court challenge (by the MTA) if it came to that? |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Apr 23 19:13:08 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Apr 23 19:08:34 2015. Is a "covenant" a legally binding agreement?Would it survive a court challenge (by the MTA) if it came to that? 1. Yes 2. Hard to predict. |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Apr 23 19:25:43 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by randyo on Thu Apr 23 18:15:14 2015. That might be an option as well, with the (5) permanently shifted to 241-WPR. |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Apr 23 19:30:43 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by NIMBYkiller on Wed Apr 22 23:39:43 2015. The S 4 St and Fulton/Utica stations are only partially completed shells that only are as long as the width of the subway envelopes below. In the unlikely event that such a subway line were ever to be completed, the M would probably have to be routed off 6 Av and the V reinstituted to serve the new subway. Since the new route would be relatively close to the Bway Bkln el west of Myrtle, many of the former M passengers west of Bway/Myrt would be able to avail themselves of the new service. The victims would be those passengers between Metro and Bway/Myrt who would probably lose their direct 6 Av service. The original configuration of the 6 Av and Houston St lines was designed prior to any consideration of Chrystie, so that as original envisioned, the Utica/Stuyvesant/S 4 St line would have the express service running up 6 Av and the lcl service operating via the Worth St subway into 8 Av. Once Chrystie severed the direct connection between 2 Av and the 6 Av exp tracks, the practicability of a S 4 St subway was greatly diminished. |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Apr 23 20:09:20 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Apr 23 00:34:36 2015. What do you mean Track 21 is rarely used ? Most trains that arrive from LI, of which there are 6 to 7 per hour, do so on Track 21, dump off everyone, and proceed to WSY. The overflow is on Track 20.You would further crowd up the LIRR concourse with subway passengers waiting for everyone to disembark. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Apr 23 20:36:45 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by randyo on Thu Apr 23 18:59:38 2015. It's not physically impossible. Enough money will solve the problem. Whether it would be worthwhile is another issue. |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Thu Apr 23 20:54:30 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Apr 22 10:40:56 2015. Why dream for a cracker and a biscuit when you can dream of a sumptuous buffet with prime rib and casada cake? |
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Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Apr 23 20:55:17 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by randyo on Thu Apr 23 18:59:38 2015. it’s physically impossible to build a subway bin that area due to the high water table so all the money in the world won’t helpIsn't that what they are trying with the new South Ferry station? :=) |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Thu Apr 23 20:55:42 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by 3-9 on Thu Apr 23 17:35:54 2015. If you add some tail tracks and advanced signaling, you could probably get away with actual capacity limits, especially when compared to existing practices. I mean, if Transport for London can squeeze out 34 tph on the two track Central Line with 1980s grade ATO why can't we with CBTC? |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Apr 23 21:05:42 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by 3-9 on Thu Apr 23 17:35:54 2015. Not the L, it's at capacityThere's a shortage of trainsets with CBTC equipment for the 14th St Line. They are currently operating 20 tph peak. The 8th Ave terminal can handle 24 tph. The next way to increase capacity is to make 6th Ave an alternate terminal. Reconfigure the middle track between 6th and 8th Aves to act as a relay track. Avoid fumigation by operating the relay as ZPTO. That should boost capacity on the Manhattan side to close to 40 tph. Of course, more CBTC equipped trainsets will be required. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 23 21:15:26 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Apr 23 20:55:17 2015. Yep. And we saw how that all worked out. (grin) |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Apr 23 21:57:40 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Apr 23 17:32:26 2015. "Ditch the LGA rail connection"Agreed , at least shelved. " running Metro North into Penn Sta" Agreed. should never happen The ESA... A mistake goin in. Since the Lex Ave Subway is already crowded to the max, where are they going to put all those extra commuters? But were stuck with it so somehow it has to be made to work out. "Second Ave extension to 96th are too far along to stop." Stopping construction should not be an option., That line should be completed, in its full length. Thats where any $$$ availability should get priority.Its been a long time comming. Everything else should wait |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Apr 23 22:11:10 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Apr 23 21:57:40 2015. .Its been a long time comming. Everything else should waitIt's a line that duplicates existing service. My priority is to extend service to where none exists (more than 1/2 mile from an existing station). Thats where any $$$ availability should get priority.Its been a long time comming. Everything else should wait It's a project that will benefit the well served while diverting $$$ from projects that would benefit the under served. That's its principal purpose. Just because a bad idea got traction in 1929, doesn't mean one should see it through to completion. |
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Posted by WillD on Thu Apr 23 22:59:25 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by vfrt on Thu Apr 23 15:22:42 2015. So NYS is supposed to pay for its transit on its own while untold billions in federal general tax revenue is poured into making 12 lane highways in Texas? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Apr 23 23:00:27 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by WillD on Thu Apr 23 22:59:25 2015. Yep. |
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Posted by WillD on Thu Apr 23 23:10:15 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by JAzumah on Thu Apr 23 15:26:42 2015. That's highly debatable. We could use to spend a lot less money on defense, so hanging on to a few fighters that are nowhere near their end of life is a good thing. If we continue to treat defense spending as a sacred cow which cannot be reduced then we're simply going to see defense contractors come up with even more outlandish overruns to get themselves a bigger and bigger slice. Start cutting the DoD and we'll see them jump into line quickly. |
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Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway |
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Posted by Kriston Lewis on Thu Apr 23 23:10:22 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by BrooklynTrain on Thu Apr 23 11:03:48 2015. I've taken the LIRR reverse peak a few times when I lived in Bed-Stuy. It's not as packed as a peak direction train, but there aren't tumbleweeds in those seats either.I've read that CityTicket would become a 24/7 thing once East Side Access opens. |
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Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway |
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Posted by Edwards! on Thu Apr 23 23:18:09 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by pragmatist on Thu Apr 23 17:17:04 2015. Hmmm...right.I too,have my reservations about the future. The idea of replacing the two east river bridge crossings should have been sorted out during the Manhattan Bridge problem. What twenty years of work accomplished was a temporary fix at best...the same problem will occur sometime in the future.. Lower Manhattan Access could have helped towards a viable solution, by building a four tracked double decked tunnel under the river.. Another tunnel located further north to serve the Eastern routes in the same manner the proposed IND second system should have done to redirect traffic to the heart of Manhattan Island via a east side route. Lack of interest,disinvestment has stagnated our life's blood...its time that the MTA look into others ways to move riders,using new technology... such as lightrail along some unused corridors... and other avenues. |
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Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Apr 23 23:25:32 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by italianstallion on Thu Apr 23 19:01:16 2015. except they got that one wrong IINM--no rail component. |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Apr 23 23:32:00 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Apr 23 22:11:10 2015. It duplicates existing overcrowded service. Thus, it will be an improvement. |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Apr 23 23:33:11 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Apr 23 21:57:40 2015. The Lex will become less crowded when SAS opens. These projects have to be looked at holistically. |
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NYT Article -Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Apr 23 23:35:58 2015, in response to De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by Kriston Lewis on Wed Apr 22 09:35:14 2015. Mayor de Blasio Revives Plan for a Utica Avenue Subway Line |
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Re: NYT Article -Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Apr 23 23:47:12 2015, in response to NYT Article -Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by italianstallion on Thu Apr 23 23:35:58 2015. Here is what the actual City report says about Utica Ave and other subway proposals:B. Study new subway routes in underserved communities and other improvements to the subway network The City will work with the MTA to study a Utica Avenue extension from the Eastern Parkway Line (3/4 train). The Utica Avenue corridor is a prime candidate for the next generation of subway expansion—it is one of the densest areas in the city not directly served by the subway and is served by the second busiest bus route in the City, the B46. The City will also work with the MTA to explore creating new system transfers, such as a transfer between the L and 3 trains at Livonia Avenue. These new connections will reduce travel times and expand travel options for thousands of subway riders. Finally, the City will work with the MTA to identify strategies to improve and expand station entrances at subway stops experiencing growing ridership. As subway ridership continues to climb, we must take action to reduce over-crowding within subway stations, especially at choke points like stairways and fare-gate areas. http://www.nyc.gov/html/onenyc/downloads/pdf/publications/OneNYC.pdf |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Apr 24 00:08:19 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by JAzumah on Thu Apr 23 15:26:42 2015. No, actually we don't need more of that crap. What we do need is to abolish several of our fleets--time for the "sovereign nations" who depend on us to start spending for their own defense. And, far more critical, get out of Iraq/Afghanistan NOW. The money we burned in Iraq alone (forget the moral depravity of the entire escapade) would have built the entire Second IND, re-signalled everything now running, and air conditioned/heated every express station underground as well as re do all lights to LED with plenty left over to do equally amazing things in Chicago, Boston, Philly, and several other cities. Instead we will be spending huge amounts on all of the damaged veterans, and I don't begrudge them a dime, I'm just outraged that we sent them out to be broken in pointless wars. |
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Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway |
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Posted by WillD on Fri Apr 24 00:08:45 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by Allan on Wed Apr 22 11:45:05 2015. Subchatters have wrung their hands for more than a decade now bemoaning "shortsighted" politicians who put a premium on small projects which can be accomplished in a mayoral term to maximize PR value, but when a mayor proposes substantive long term projects of the type championed here suddenly the time to completion is a problem? |
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Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway |
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Posted by JAzumah on Fri Apr 24 00:14:15 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Apr 23 22:11:10 2015. It is not a bad idea by any means. You cannot add outerborough branches without a Manhattan trunk. |
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Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway |
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Posted by JAzumah on Fri Apr 24 00:18:26 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by randyo on Thu Apr 23 19:04:42 2015. I would extend it to Floyd Bennett Field and build a massive yard there.Elevated, of course. |
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Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway |
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Posted by italianstallion on Fri Apr 24 00:30:26 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by WillD on Fri Apr 24 00:08:45 2015. +1,000 |
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Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway |
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Posted by italianstallion on Fri Apr 24 00:33:01 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by JAzumah on Fri Apr 24 00:18:26 2015. Floyd Bennett Field is National Park Service land - part of Gateway National Recreation Area. No subway yards can ever be built there. |
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Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway |
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Posted by JAzumah on Fri Apr 24 00:37:21 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by WillD on Thu Apr 23 23:10:15 2015. We need new fighters right now, particularly to replace the F15s that are cracking. I would not reduce the budget directly. Rather, I would buy 25 Saabs to "test" as defensive fighters and threaten to buy more if the price of new fighters doesn't come down. By promoting competition with similar, less complex systems, we can naturally bring the price down. |
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Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway |
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Posted by JAzumah on Fri Apr 24 00:38:32 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by Edwards! on Thu Apr 23 23:18:09 2015. A National Defense subway system. |
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Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway |
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Posted by JAzumah on Fri Apr 24 00:40:59 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Apr 24 00:08:19 2015. You are making the assumption that the money borrowed for the military would be borrowed for normal needs. That should not be assumed. The interstate highway system was built as a military byproduct. |
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Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Apr 24 00:45:36 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by JAzumah on Fri Apr 24 00:38:32 2015. Worked for Eisenhower to keep the truckers happy. What we need is to have the Capitol surrounded by buses and light rail until they give in. :) |
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Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway |
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Posted by WillD on Fri Apr 24 00:57:02 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by JAzumah on Fri Apr 24 00:37:21 2015. So we reward shoddy work on MDD's part by throwing more money at the defense industrial complex's latest, even more expensive offering? Never mind that the cracks which grounded the F-15 fleet happened back in 2008 and were repaired for around $250,000 per aircraft, about 1/500th the cost of a new F-35, it simply needs to be stated that the DoD needs to do a serious needs assessment. There may need to be a draw-down in the number of active squadrons if we are to have any hope of tackling the national debt.Rather, I would buy 25 Saabs to "test" as defensive fighters and threaten to buy more if the price of new fighters doesn't come down How is that going to help anything? Like the US Navy's F-16Ns, all you'll end up with is a unique fleet which will cost that much more to maintain, especially at a time when a number of early model F-15s and F-18s are being cascaded into the sort of aggressor roles a Gripen would find itself in. By promoting competition with similar, less complex systems, we can naturally bring the price down. And what makes you think any of this would work? There is no competition in the defense industry, domestic or international. Sure, there's titualarly some competition between Airbus Military, LockMart, and Boeing, but the US and EU make sure that whatever losses they take abroad are made up at home. Saab got out of defense contracting. The Gripen is now produced by British Aerospace, which is a partner in the F-35. What makes you think they're going to sit idly by while you threaten their corporate profits yet go hat in hand asking them to produce you Gripens? You're gonna end up being sold Gripens at F-35 prices. The only thing the DoD and the defense industrial complex is going to pay attention to is when the magical money spigot starts getting turned off. |
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Re: NYT Article -Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Apr 24 01:41:36 2015, in response to Re: NYT Article -Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by italianstallion on Thu Apr 23 23:47:12 2015. More time wasted studies...This line has been studied to death. We know an EIS has become part of the process...adding Years and tons of money,with no guarantee of one backhoe hitting the ground...but Come one... This thing has been on the map longer than the SAS...before Triboro... |
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Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Apr 24 01:59:48 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by JAzumah on Fri Apr 24 00:40:59 2015. No, I am merely pointing out that spending SHOULD be so used. Do I have much hope of same? Nope. My only consolation is that if I am lucky I will not live to witness the catastrophic collapse. |
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Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway |
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Posted by SMAZ on Fri Apr 24 02:02:33 2015, in response to Re: De Blasio Want To Expand The Subway, posted by randyo on Thu Apr 23 18:16:49 2015. I have mentioned in several posts that the High Line could have been and probably still can be used for this purpose.And trigger the biggest property value destruction in NY history? |
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