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Re: LION on Metro North Collision |
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Posted by steamdriven on Sat Feb 7 09:50:59 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by AlM on Sat Feb 7 02:02:27 2015. " You can also save time by passing cars on a blind curve on a 2-lane highway. I don't understand how people can do such a thing. :( "They do that because they couldn't find a railroad crossing to jerk around on ;-) srsly, these things are a matter of personality. Sorta like conspiracy theorists; once they tire of UFOs, they become 9/11 troofers or anti-vaccination cranks. The irrational will always find a way to do something goofy. The personality trait stays, when one expression is blocked they will find another. If it is practical, perhaps commuter trains need to mount a deep V shaped track sweeper on the ends constructed heavily enough to bunt both cars and trucks to the side, which would deflect most though not all of distracted or reckless, thus deflecting the vehicle's fuel or whatever debris the vehicle collects. But then you have to mount the thing on different cars as the train is reconfigured, and it might cause other headaches. |
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Re: LION on Metro North Collision |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 7 10:43:21 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by pragmatist on Sat Feb 7 08:50:54 2015. Red light cameras also bring in an increase in rear end accidents. |
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Re: LION on Metro North Collision |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Feb 7 10:48:46 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by Fulton Frank on Sat Feb 7 09:00:38 2015. It has happened in many cases, almost as a matter of routine. In grade crossing accidents caused by vehicles that disregard gates,lights & bells, the railroad will come after the individual, the individuals insurance company or the driver of the vehicle's estate to recoup damages to its equiptment, at the very least.In this case, its safe to assume that the M-7 involved is totaled. The cost of that, cost of labor involved in the cleanup, & repairs to the right of way,compensation for the deceised & hospitalization costs...etc..etc. Bottom line here, as a guess, were talking several million $$$ here. |
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Re: LION on Metro North Collision |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 7 10:52:35 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Feb 7 10:48:46 2015. No matter how well-to-do Mr. Brody is (Mercedes Benz Vehicles notwithstanding) he cannot afford such a settlement. His automobile insurance should be able to cover a reasonable settlement on the deaths, and maybe some of the damages, but there is no reason (other than greed) to make his disaster any worse than it already is.ROAR |
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Re: LION on Metro North Collision |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 7 11:02:08 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by pragmatist on Sat Feb 7 08:50:54 2015. The proliferation of red light cameras is due to the fact that the company that installs and maintains them is the one that sends the tickets and collects the money. The locality with whom they contract gets a handsome percentage of the take.The RAILROAD can contract with such companies to protect their crossings, and garner a take from the camera company. They can ALSO send around the Railroad Police to speak to the vehicle owner, Spend a half an hour or more showing a video of wrecks and their human costs, and then serve him with a warning, that the next time their camera catches their car on an activated crossing he will receive a warrant for arrest as an accessory to the crime, and his car will be impounded as evidence. It may be a lot of bluster, with few active teeth, although some will have to bite in the papers to demonstrate the seriousness of the issue. Remember, that the traffic camera is NOT the only camera on the scene, and that the trains camera will catch a lower image of the vehicle and its passengers. If that shows a distraction, such as texting, then the RR police can make an arrest and bring the perp into court right then and there. Indeed, if an RR is going to go through all of the trouble of providing gates, with event recorders, they may as well add cameras looking right into the vehicles. All the traffic cam would do is to clue them it to look at their own resources. ROAR |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 7 11:10:39 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by Fulton Frank on Sat Feb 7 09:00:38 2015. Could Mrs Brody be liable for causing the death, pain and suffering of the other victims?Possibly, but the question is whether she could be sued. She is not alive to defend herself. I would assume that would be sufficient to dismiss any postmortem legal actions against her. Remember the case against Kenneth Lay of Enron. He was convicted (in a criminal case) but that conviction was vacated when he had the good sense to die during the appeal. Similarly, her estate is/will be a legal entity. However, it can be sued only for actions that the estate's executors take. The estate would be responsible for paying any debts the deceased incurred prior to her death. Perhaps, a lawyer would be able to clarify this point with knowledge. |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 7 11:18:18 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 7 11:10:39 2015. Since they are/were married, is her husband financially responsible once her insurance company and her money are gone ? |
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Posted by pragmatist on Sat Feb 7 11:27:23 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 7 11:02:08 2015. They can't garner a take if the State of NY (assuming we are talking NY) does not authorize the use of the cameras to enforce that particular section of the VTL and approves the diversion of the revenue to the agency or railroad. The split of penalties (who gets what) is always one of the most contentious fights in Albany. Most VTL offenses are not crimes, seizure is only legal in the most serious traffic cases for a very narrow range of offenses, crimes (as defined by law, not common belief) are misdemeanors or felonies, if you want to raise the stakes (which might not be a bad thing) you have to get Albany to buy in. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 7 11:30:39 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 7 11:18:18 2015. You need somebody who has legal knowledge regarding whether legal actions can be taken against a dead person. My belief is not.The next question is under whose name the car was registered. If it were registered under the husband, then he bears responsibility. If it were registered under Ms. Brody, then I believe she and her heirs are beyond any legal actions to recover damages. |
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Posted by pragmatist on Sat Feb 7 11:33:38 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 7 11:30:39 2015. They were not dead at the time they caused the injury. Action would pass to the estate (and the insurance company for the owner of the vehicle). |
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Posted by pragmatist on Sat Feb 7 11:41:53 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 7 11:10:39 2015. Criminal and civil are different. Not the least of which is the (huge) difference between "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" and "preponderance of evidence presented" |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 7 11:54:14 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by pragmatist on Sat Feb 7 11:33:38 2015. As I noted earlier, this would be contrary to the case of Kenneth Lay whose conviction was vacated because he died during his appeal. The question wasn't whether he was alive at the time he committed a crime. The question was whether he was alive during all the court proceedings. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 7 11:56:02 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by pragmatist on Sat Feb 7 11:41:53 2015. Criminal and civil are different.Is this a knowledgeable [from one who has passed the NYS Bar] legal opinion? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 7 12:07:22 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by pragmatist on Sat Feb 7 11:27:23 2015. The Railroad has its own police department, and their goal is to keep the vehicles off of the tracks, I am sure they do not care who gets the money. The cameras would be on railroad property, and WTH, the railroad can put in its own cameras on their own crossing gates and Albany can go and suck a smokestack for all we care.ROAR |
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Re: LION on Metro North Collision |
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Posted by j trainloco on Sat Feb 7 12:29:34 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 7 11:30:39 2015. Don't forget about this. |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Feb 7 13:07:20 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 7 11:54:14 2015. Civil action, in contrast to criminal action, can most definitely be taken against an estate, on account of the actions of the deceased. |
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Posted by pragmatist on Sat Feb 7 13:37:27 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 7 11:56:02 2015. In NYS, most criminal cases are adjudicated under the provisions of the CPL (Criminal Procedure Law), while civil cases are handled under the provisions of the CPLR (Civil Procedure Laws and Rules) They are not the same. To answer your direct question, I am not licensed to practice law in NY. There are many people who work with the laws and are familiar with them who are not attorneys. I know its cold outside, I'm not a meteorologist. If you have any doubts about the statements I made, hopefully someone else on the board can provide independent verification. |
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Posted by pragmatist on Sat Feb 7 13:45:42 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 7 12:07:22 2015. The MTA is an agency of the State of NY. Their police officers derive their authority from the NYS CPL, and in some instances Sec 88 of the NYS Railroad Laws. MNRR property in NY is NYS property. Life is just not so simple. The MTA PD was a carefully crafted merger of the LIRR police and the Metro North police. |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Feb 7 13:57:22 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by pragmatist on Sat Feb 7 13:37:27 2015. I'm not a lawyer either but I have known of civil suits that have proceeded against the estate following the death of the defendant. |
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Posted by ElectricTraction on Sat Feb 7 15:03:35 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 6 01:05:41 2015. No, there are not thousands of Commerce streets. There are about a half dozen crossings in overrunning third rail territory, all of them on the Harlem line between NWP and Southeast. There are far more on LIRR, with overrunning third rail.Also, aside from the exact specifics of the type of third rail, if a route is busy enough to warrant electrification, it shouldn't have grade crossings in the first place. The NYC built exactly zero grade crossings in third rail territory, it wasn't until MN extended the third rail from NWP to Southeast in 1984 that they cheaped out, and allowed at-grade crossings to exist, which should have been eliminated when the electrification was done. This grade crossing and one or two others should be bridged, the ones that go somewhere without other road access need new road access put in from the other side so they can be closed, and there are at least two that can just be closed, as they serve no legitimate purpose. This one would also grade separate Commerce Street from the Taconic Parkway, which should also be completely grade separated from any other roads in the area. Having a highway like that not grade separated is also pretty dumb. |
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Posted by ElectricTraction on Sat Feb 7 15:03:49 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Feb 6 14:22:26 2015. All of the crossings in MN third rail territory, all half-dozen or so of them should be closed/bridge/routed around. Same for the LIRR Main Line, just given the sheer volume of traffic on that thing. And certainly, the LIRR should look at the rest of their system and figure out if more crossings can be closed or bridged. |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Feb 7 15:10:07 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by ElectricTraction on Sat Feb 7 15:03:35 2015. But no previous grade crossing accident in third rail territory has produced the disaster this one produced. |
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Re: LION on Metro North Collision |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 7 15:19:35 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by ElectricTraction on Sat Feb 7 15:03:49 2015. Nasty wreck 30 years ago on LIRR Main Line at Herricks Road got that crossing eliminated. One other got eliminated in Mineola.Beyond that, LIRR chickens out to NIMBY's for the 3 in N.H.P. and 2 remaining in Mineola. |
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Posted by ElectricTraction on Sat Feb 7 20:38:53 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by pragmatist on Sat Feb 7 08:50:54 2015. Red light cameras are purely a fund raising measure. They actually decrease the safety of an intersection, as people are likely to slam on their brakes to avoid getting ticketed instead of going through an orange light, and in the process are far more likely to get rear-ended.Red light cameras should not be allowed anywhere. |
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Re: LION on Metro North Collision |
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Posted by ElectricTraction on Sat Feb 7 20:42:53 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Feb 7 10:48:46 2015. Human lives are valued between $1M and $5M. These were relatively high wage earners in professional jobs in a high cost of living area, so let's go with $5M. Add about $4M for the wrecked M-7 set, and the cost of cleanup, NTSB investigation, putting the third rail back together, etc, etc, and not even counting lost revenue and operational disruption, you're creeping up on $30M. |
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Posted by ElectricTraction on Sat Feb 7 21:03:09 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by AlM on Sat Feb 7 15:10:07 2015. That line has only been electrified for 30 years. One of these every 30 years, probably less since there are more trains and more cars than there were then, isn't acceptable. |
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Posted by ElectricTraction on Sat Feb 7 21:03:12 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by Joe V on Sat Feb 7 15:19:35 2015. Maybe this will change things on the LIRR, even if over-running third rail makes this type of thing less likely. Really, any electrified line, including those using catenary, should be fully grade separated. I'm not sure what the situation on the New Caanan line looks like, I know there are two crossings on the New Haven Shore Line that need to go bye-bye, and a handful more that have no alternative. |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Feb 7 21:09:00 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 7 10:52:35 2015. "(other than greed)"Greed?? what a suprise. That capital sin rearing its ugly head again. Never thought that would happen. I'm sure lawyers are out there en masse setting the table for some massive lawsuits/settlements. Like sharks around a bucket of chum, I'm sure several lawyers are out there smelling green in their pockets thanks to the blood on the tracks. |
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Posted by ElectricTraction on Sat Feb 7 21:19:12 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Feb 7 21:09:00 2015. As much as I hate lawyers running around suing people, if there are any documents still around from the 1913 time frame describing why the NYC engineers fully grade-separated all the lines with third rail... man, that would be bad for MN.They cheaped out in 1984, if they had done it right and fully grade-separated, we wouldn't be here talking about this today, and those 5 people on the train would still be alive. |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Feb 7 21:19:55 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 7 10:52:35 2015. His automobile insurance should be able to cover a reasonable settlement on the deaths, and maybe some of the damages,The standard "good" auto insurance liability is 300K or so. People who can afford a Mercedes probably typically have a million or 2 of umbrella liability. At probably several million dollars lost income each for 5 individuals, the car insurance is very unlikely to suffice. Of course, the victims' families will also sue Metro-North. Much deeper pockets there. |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Feb 7 21:27:06 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by ElectricTraction on Sat Feb 7 21:19:12 2015. "They cheaped out in 1984, if they had done it right and fully grade-separated, we wouldn't be here talking about this today"What do you mean?? |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Feb 7 21:28:18 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by AlM on Sat Feb 7 21:19:55 2015. "Much deeper pockets there."AKA taxpayers. |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Feb 7 21:35:23 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by ElectricTraction on Sat Feb 7 21:19:12 2015. other than park ave viaduct were is grade separation ??? you smoken wrong weed . |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 7 21:39:28 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Feb 7 21:35:23 2015. In New York State there is grade separation with all state highways (is there not.... least wise that is what the LION thunked..... Thus there are some very low narrow tunnels used by state highways where trucks cannot pass, but must go and find an alternative route.In CT, too I suppose, since I remember the contortions in the road between Torrington and Winsted. ROAR |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Feb 7 21:45:42 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 7 21:39:28 2015. nope , no and no |
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Posted by ElectricTraction on Sat Feb 7 21:55:22 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Feb 7 21:27:06 2015. This shouldn't be hard to understand!They left about a half-dozen crossings, including the one where this wreck occurred. If they had grade-separated those, this accident wouldn't have happened. The NYC grade-separated their entire electrified system, but MN cheaped out and left a few crossings here and there. |
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Posted by ElectricTraction on Sat Feb 7 22:02:05 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Feb 7 21:35:23 2015. AFAIK, all of the original NYC third-rail system is fully grade separated. Show me the public crossings on the Lower Harlem or the Hudson? I know for sure the entire New Haven main line is grade separated, including the section with third rail from Pelham to the junction with the Harlem. |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Feb 7 22:16:21 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by ElectricTraction on Sat Feb 7 22:02:05 2015. Crossings and grade separation is not paid for by railroad, it is up to whomever wants to cross the track , in this care they are Valhalla roads so to say MN cheapened out is ignorant on your part .If town of Valhalla wants overpasses they need to pay for it, and I am sure the local population has 40 or 50 million in tax money laying around just because someone made a stupid mistake. |
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Posted by ElectricTraction on Sat Feb 7 22:41:26 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sat Feb 7 22:16:21 2015. MN should have grade separated in 1984 because they converted a sleepy little diesel line into a busy electrified main line. However, if you actually bother to think about it, some combination of state and federal funding would pay for it one way or the other, whether it goes through DOT to a town or through MN.It's not at all ignorant to say that MN cheaped out. They should have done grade separation as part of the package. Whether the money ultimately would have gone through DOT or MN or some other agency to accomplish the work is just splitting hairs. |
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Posted by TerrapiN StatioN on Sat Feb 7 22:47:49 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by Dutchrailnut on Fri Feb 6 21:53:52 2015. the moment crossing is activated the light turns green to empty the trap zoneImpossible. First the OTHER light has to go amber and red and THEN this light can go green. So that's at least 5 seconds after the crossing is activated. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Feb 7 22:54:47 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by TerrapiN StatioN on Sat Feb 7 22:47:49 2015. And four seconds before the gates START to come down, and 30 seconds before the train arrives. |
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Posted by Bill West on Sun Feb 8 04:37:49 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by ElectricTraction on Sat Feb 7 22:41:26 2015. The 1900's NYC and NH elevation projects were to do with the complaints about the trains blocking the streets in the cities and with the limitations that coping with crossing traffic would put on adopting faster schedules. The unrecoverable damage and disruption costs may or may not have started as a concern at that time but by WWI they had risen to the point where the LIRR was running large campaigns against crossing violators. They also started to suffer from "sympathize with the victim" lawsuits. LIRR even tried using telephone poles as crossing gate arms. Read some of the era trade journals.At NYC's start the only passenger injury experience was with loco hauled trains where fatalities would be near nonexistent. Even with MU's coming I don't think anyone considered the passengers at risk from automobiles no bigger than a model T. I also don't recollect a history of significant passenger fatality incidents from crossing accidents in the Teens, Twenties or Thirties. Not even from the many third rail grade crossings on the various electric railroad and interurban operators across the country. Bill |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 8 04:45:39 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by Bill West on Sun Feb 8 04:37:49 2015. I will only point out that it's amusing how many have come rolling out in favor of the (now illegal) Darwin candidates and simply remind what USED to be a known factor insofar as railroads went, as published on every single crossbuck that ever existed. And even before. "tl;dr is no way to live."   While I have all the sympathy in the world for the plucky motorist, and I genuinely mean it, you simply don't fuck around on railroad tracks. Up here, we don't have the benefit of ANY warnings when you try to cross railroad tracks, and so you DO stop, look and listen before even THINKING about crossing any. |
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Re: LION on Metro North Collision |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 8 06:20:00 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun Feb 8 04:45:39 2015. And for the REALLY retarded who can't figure that much out, it all originated from something even "Terrapin Station" (not naming names since they won't print here) might be able to figure out. Bump! :) Lesson? Fuck with this and you die. |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 8 09:01:51 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by ElectricTraction on Sat Feb 7 21:19:12 2015. Where is it written that every rail line with 3rd rail must not have 3rd rail ? |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 8 09:05:22 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by ElectricTraction on Sat Feb 7 22:41:26 2015. It is not MN's job to grade separate and that is not "splitting hairs. That is State DOT's. MTA does not answer to DOT. Take your complaint to them. MN did not "cheap out". Neither did LIRR when they electrified to Huntington in 1970 and Ronkonkoma in 1988. |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Feb 8 09:22:38 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by ElectricTraction on Sat Feb 7 21:19:12 2015. They cheaped out in 1984, if they had done it right and fully grade-separated, we wouldn't be here talking about this today, and those 5 people on the train would still be alive.However, the same amount of taxpayer money spent elsewhere on NY highway safety might very well have saved more lives. The state has a budget for safety improvements. I'm sure it's not spent perfectly. But there is actually a thought process that goes into figuring out where to spend tax dollars to get the best return. |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 8 09:25:48 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by ElectricTraction on Sat Feb 7 21:03:12 2015. Don't hold your breath. DOT budgets, other priorities, and NIMBY's run things. |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 8 12:03:52 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by ElectricTraction on Sat Feb 7 21:55:22 2015. "If they had grade-separated those, this accident wouldn't have happened"Thats exactly right! The only part is noboby had enough $$$ for such an ambitious project. Nor did any of the communities want the construction delays & disruptions that such construction would cause. Also, if individuals obeyed warning lights this accident & those like it would never happen. You can improve all you want. You cant throw all the "If onlys" out there & you'll never overcome stupidity & bad judgement. " MN cheaped out and left a few crossings here and there" With that statement, you have no idea what you are talking about. Its not the Railroads sole responsibility to remove grade croosings. Period! |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 8 12:14:25 2015, in response to Re: LION on Metro North Collision, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 8 12:03:52 2015. Right after this electrification was done, and M-1 MU hit a car at this crossing. There was no fire and explosion and everyone seemed to forget about it.We didn't have many SUV's back then, and that was towards the end of "unsafe at any speed" (Nader) cars that fell apart upon impact quite readily. |
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