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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by Easy on Mon Dec 27 20:17:37 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Dec 27 19:31:04 2010. Maybe they just hate NY'ers. Like the rest of the country. ;) |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by kp5308 on Mon Dec 27 20:18:31 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Dec 27 20:10:39 2010. The website gives a very clear answerApparently not clear to all. |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Dec 27 20:29:43 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by kp5308 on Mon Dec 27 20:18:31 2010. Nope, very clear. I will quote it."While photography is permitted in clearly defined public areas of the SEPTA system, it obviously cannot be permitted in any manner that would interfere with the safe movement of people or operation of vehicles." |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by BMTLines on Mon Dec 27 20:30:35 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Dec 27 20:29:43 2010. Sounds very clear to me! |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Mon Dec 27 20:36:52 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 19:55:44 2010. Indeed! :) I never realized that soft pretzels and "water ice" were a Philly based thing too! |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Mon Dec 27 20:44:12 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Dec 27 20:29:43 2010. Gosh, TP, I'd would've thought you'd link to the whole page. I don't know of any other system that has such a clear, complete, and easy to understand stance on photography and sketching. |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Mon Dec 27 20:44:37 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by The Flxible Neofan on Mon Dec 27 20:44:12 2010. And pardon my atrocious grammar there. :-D |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Mon Dec 27 20:47:19 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by The Flxible Neofan on Mon Dec 27 20:44:12 2010. *TS...Wow, my mind is elsewhere tonight! :-D |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 21:20:19 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by EastSideRider on Mon Dec 27 19:31:26 2010. Philly got half the snow the NY area did. The most they got was about 12 inches according to what I have read. NY areas got close to double that in many areas.The storm dumped 12.4 inches of snow at Philadelphia's airport, the highest snow total in the metropolitan region |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 21:23:39 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Dec 27 20:29:43 2010. That's why they gave Fred a disorderly conduct ticket, as opposed to a photography ticket. It's much harder to defend, as the cop probably knew that photography really was legal. In the case of the disorderly conduct thing, it's his word against his whether Fred used "profanity" or not. It disgusting that the cop is lying here, and what is even more disgusting is that the cop said something to the effect of "I write what I write". |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by HarryP on Mon Dec 27 21:29:33 2010, in response to War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Fred G on Mon Dec 27 17:57:43 2010. 1) Write a letter to Joe Casey, SEPTA G.M.;2) Get your incident published in the Phila. Inquirer and Phila. Daily News, and contact local TV stations; 3) Contact the local chapter of the ACLU. They may take your case pro bono 4) Contact Carlos Miller at his website "Photography is not a Crime." This is imperative -- it's the only way to beat these S.O.B.s! Strike while the iron is hot. Don't let this incident pass. |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by BMTLines on Mon Dec 27 21:34:02 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 21:23:39 2010. Actually the use of profanity even against police officers is protected by the Constitution of the United StatesRead this article about the ACLU suing Pennsylvania repeatedly for issuing such citations: In a separate case a man was arrested, cited for disorderly conduct and briefly jailed after shouting a double expletive at a policeman who was writing him a parking ticket. The two are among at least 750 people in Pennsylvania a year who face illegal disorderly conduct charges because of the use of profanity in Pennsylvania, the ACLU said. [...] Tuthill added that the ACLU will continue to bring lawsuits until the practice of issuing citations for swearing is stopped. Swearing at cops may not be advisable but it is perfectly legal. |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Mon Dec 27 21:45:36 2010, in response to War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Fred G on Mon Dec 27 17:57:43 2010. That is most disturbing, Fred. You should seek counsel on this matter. It's for this exact reason that I will NEVER set phoot in Philthy Philly or any of its environs.On December 18th I was waiting at WTC for a PATH train and was approached by a PA police officer, who, noticing my bag (the brand inscribed on front) asked me "What's in the bag?", to which I politely responded "Excuse me, sir?". He then repeated his initial question, to which I then responded "Photo equipment, which I have no intention of using". He left it at that. wayne |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Dec 27 21:50:04 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Mon Dec 27 21:45:36 2010. IIRC PATH is very anal about photography. |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 21:52:32 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Dec 27 21:50:04 2010. Well, at least in the case of PATH, it really is illegal to take photos, so they CAN stop you, unlike most of the other situations.By the way, PATH had a ban on photography LONG before 9/11/01, it was illegal in the early 90's already. |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 21:54:54 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Easy on Mon Dec 27 20:15:40 2010. That's the problem in Fred's case. This cop knew what he was doing. He knew not to issue a ticket for the photography, as he knew he couldn't do that. So he decided to take the "he said she said" route, and write one for disorderly conduct, and out right lied about the profanity, knowing it would be Fred's word against his, and unlike the bogus photography ticket which would have been immediately thrown out, in this case, there's something more. |
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Posted by BMTLines on Mon Dec 27 21:56:24 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 21:52:32 2010. Only because it has never been challenged. I heard rumblings at one time that the NPPA was going to challenge it but there hasn't been anything recent. PATH isn't that important to artists and photographers so you don't get the same uproar that you got when the MTA tried to ban photography.I would love to see a constitutional challenge against the PATH policy |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 21:56:39 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by BMTLines on Mon Dec 27 21:34:02 2010. It's not relevant whether profanity is legal or not.It's not the profanity itself, but the profanity just supports "disorderly conduct" more than if he didn't claim profanity was used. |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by R36 #9346 on Mon Dec 27 21:58:20 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by HarryP on Mon Dec 27 21:29:33 2010. Agreed |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 21:58:32 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by BMTLines on Mon Dec 27 21:56:24 2010. But the thing is it's an old law, already on the books, so they can enforce it. It's not the same as the confrontations on the subway, Septa, etc, as in those cases, it really is legal. |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by arnine on Mon Dec 27 21:59:47 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 27 19:21:05 2010. Why would they? They have 2 terrorists armed with a camera, that is more threatening than a pipe, don't ya think?[sarcasm] SMH @ those damn cops! |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by BMTLines on Mon Dec 27 22:00:26 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 21:56:39 2010. But if profanity is the reason for the claim of "disorderly conduct" then the use of profanity is not disorderly by definition. This is the precise pattern that the ACLU of PA is suing the various police departments there for doing. |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 22:02:47 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by BMTLines on Mon Dec 27 22:00:26 2010. It's not illegal to scream and holler anything on a train platform either, but it can easily be classified as disorderly conduct. |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by EastSideRider on Mon Dec 27 22:04:03 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 21:20:19 2010. And? He is making NYC to be "better", so i'm following along with his act. Where in reality, what works for one doesn't work for another.In any case, i'm tired of the Philly hate by people, by usually uppity NY-ers, who don't even know how things work down here. |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by BMTLines on Mon Dec 27 22:04:12 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 21:58:32 2010. The MTA also had an old law banning photography. A photo ban on the subways was in effect from 1940 - circa 1995. For the most part it was rarely enforced and railfans were routinely given photo permits so it was not much of an issue but someone was given a summons and the ACLU got involved. Rather than defend the ban in court the MTA chose to rewrite the rule to what it is today."Old laws" can be challenged all the time - it just takes a person with time and resources who is willing to do it |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by arnine on Mon Dec 27 22:05:42 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by BMTLines on Mon Dec 27 18:11:28 2010. Well, BMTLines I think it depends on the person TBH, but in this case I totally think what happened is true and is the whole story as Fred has a very good rep and is always pretty reasonable. Those cops were ridiculous (?sp) and all should be disciplined. |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 22:06:57 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by BMTLines on Mon Dec 27 22:04:12 2010. A photo ban on the subways was in effect from 1940 - circa 1995.Can't be anywhere near 1995, as I would have known in the early 90's if it was legal or not. It was legal in the early 90's. By the way, I don't know if it is still the case on the books, but I remember hearing that in the early 90's it was illegal to photograph at Jamaica Station on the LIRR, but only Jamaica. Don't know if that is true or not. |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by BMTLines on Mon Dec 27 22:08:34 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 22:02:47 2010. The ACLU has already won several cases where police classified the use of profanity as "disorderly conduct". What the ACLU is proving is that unless other behavior is involved then profanity alone does not rise to that level and the SEPTA police can be sued and will lose in court just like the other Pennsylvania police departments have been losing these cases |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 22:09:12 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by EastSideRider on Mon Dec 27 22:04:03 2010. But the example of "how well the transit system fared" in Philly was being made in the post I was responding to which YOU made, and THAT is what I was discussing, so I don't know what your "and?" has to do with my post, as I was DIRECTLY responding to something you posted about the transportation. |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by Easy on Mon Dec 27 22:11:13 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 22:02:47 2010. I think that what he's saying is that there is a legal definition for disorderly behavior that would include things like playing loud music, obstructing passengers, interfering with operations, etc. If they try to say that profanity is disorderly or even evidence of disorderly behavior then it will weaken their case. |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by EastSideRider on Mon Dec 27 22:15:56 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 22:09:12 2010. "And" as in, it doesn't matter.Moving on now! :) |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Dec 27 22:16:00 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Mon Dec 27 21:45:36 2010. On December 18th I was waiting at WTC for a PATH train and was approached by a PA police officer, who, noticing my bag (the brand inscribed on front) asked me "What's in the bag?", to which I politely responded "Excuse me, sir?". He then repeated his initial question, to which I then responded "Photo equipment, which I have no intention of using". He left it at that. What does that have to do with this thread? I will NEVER set phoot in Philthy Philly or any of its environs. Oh wow, you're really missing out!! Take Pride,
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Dec 27 22:18:17 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 21:54:54 2010. If he knew that, then why did he base the investigation on the idea that Fred needed authorization to take photos? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 22:22:28 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Dec 27 22:18:17 2010. He did, but he didn't write the ticket for that. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 22:24:18 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by BMTLines on Mon Dec 27 22:08:34 2010. That is great, and I hope Fred wins, as this needs to be brought to justice. It's utterly ridiculous what this cop put him through, and what a TREMENDOUS waste of tax dollars, both for the 6 cops involved in this nonsense, as well as the waste of money they will spend on the case. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 22:25:03 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Easy on Mon Dec 27 22:11:13 2010. Hopefully. I can't imagine why this unprofessional cop would have even lied and put that in there then. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Dec 27 22:25:24 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 22:22:28 2010. Because there is no law to cite, no matter if he thought it was or was not permitted without authorization. |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 22:26:38 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Dec 27 22:16:00 2010. It does show the utter absurdity of what is going on in these situations. The absolute nerve for him to even 'attack" Wayne on this. I do like Wayne's reaction of "Excuse me" though.... |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 22:26:38 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Dec 27 22:16:00 2010. It does show the utter absurdity of what is going on in these situations. The absolute nerve for him to even 'attack" Wayne on this. I do like Wayne's reaction of "Excuse me" though.... |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Dec 27 22:29:55 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 22:06:57 2010. IIRC, it was a case in 1994 I believe where a woman was taking pictures of exposed piping or electrical conduit, to bolster a "claim" of shoddy workmanship and got ticketed for it .... the media got wind of it and the MTA ended up apologizing for the ticket, and then lifted the actual photo ban.--Mark |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Dec 27 22:30:40 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 22:26:38 2010. Not sure I understand what you are saying. I don't see anything terribly wrong with a cop simply asking what is in a bag. And I also don't like how Wayne responded. |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Dec 27 22:30:43 2010, in response to War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Fred G on Mon Dec 27 17:57:43 2010. Fred, I'm sorry this happened to you and I hope you prevail in the end.--Mark |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by BMTLines on Mon Dec 27 22:33:08 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Mon Dec 27 21:45:36 2010. MTA cops are becoming just as absurd. A photographer reported on FLICKR that he received a summons for "obstructing governmental administration" for merely carrying a camera across the walkway of the Triboro Bridge.He probably refused to show images or answer questions which are both within his legal rights to do (4th and 5th amendments). It seems that some cops have a general disdain for the US Constitution that they swear to uphold |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Mon Dec 27 22:36:50 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by arnine on Mon Dec 27 21:59:47 2010. Talk about making the whole week crappy, there should be a group of photographers at these places maybe once a month to show these mindless assholes that photographers wouldn't take this anymore, and wear sweat shirts with the photography policy on the front and back,there just has to be something that will stop this harassing of photographers in a peaceful manner. Karl M |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by BMTLines on Mon Dec 27 22:37:34 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by arnine on Mon Dec 27 22:05:42 2010. I tend to believe all of these stories because there are simply too many of them. I have also witnessed cops telling tourists that photography is illegal at Queensboro Plaza. A long time will have to pass without a single incident before I ever believe the cop's side of a photography encounter ever again |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by BMTLines on Mon Dec 27 22:39:00 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Mon Dec 27 22:36:50 2010. Like these? |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 27 22:41:31 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 21:54:54 2010. Um, I was standing next to Fred when this happens. I will testify to exactly what happened. |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 27 22:48:52 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Dec 27 19:48:40 2010. I was worried that fucker was going to give me a citation just for being there. I'm surprised he didn't. |
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Posted by milan1834 on Mon Dec 27 22:51:53 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Fred G on Mon Dec 27 18:23:17 2010. Formosa, eh? Well, guess you'll have to to Tai-Wan on...Seriousely, sorry this happened to you. |
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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 27 22:56:37 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by BMTLines on Mon Dec 27 22:33:08 2010. Cops have a natural desire maintain their power and dominance over others. It helps them deal with the fact that their job is pure overhead. |
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