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| Re: Another moronic reply by smaz (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) (768441) | |
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Re: Another moronic reply by smaz (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) |
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Posted by Train Dude on Mon Apr 25 00:22:34 2011, in response to Re: Another moronic reply by smaz (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas), posted by JayMan on Sun Apr 24 22:39:15 2011. Again: First you said that there was no drop. Now you say there is a drop BUT according to you, it's no cause for alarm. Frankly, I find you intellectually dishonest. |
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Re: Another moronic reply by Train Dude (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) |
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Posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 25 00:32:08 2011, in response to Re: Another moronic reply by Train Dude (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas), posted by Train Dude on Mon Apr 25 00:21:35 2011. Re-read my post. I didn't say that there was no drop, I was merely asking you to provide proof(proff) for your claim that it had dropped. |
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Re: Another moronic reply by racist libs (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 25 00:32:42 2011, in response to Re: Another moronic reply by Train Dude (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas), posted by Train Dude on Mon Apr 25 00:21:35 2011. Meh, it's libs and their "blackwhite/doublethink" thinking. |
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Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) |
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Posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 25 03:24:52 2011, in response to Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas), posted by LuchAAA on Sun Apr 24 14:45:33 2011. Ghetto was just a place at one time. Today, it's a mentality and a lifestyle. These girls seem like lifestyle or mentally ghetto, when in reality, they enjoy a nice middle class lifestyle.I guess you're saying that they're simply culturally black. Revisiting this, I noticed that a key belief underlying your thought on race issues is that you seem to believe that differences between groups of people is primarily due to differences in culture: middle-class, suburban blacks are more well-behaved and higher performing because they have a better culture and shun the "ghetto hip-hop thug" mentality—you seem to think. I think to an extent you believe that this is the source of differences between the races. Whereas I understand that these groups are different largely for genetic reasons. Middle-class upscale blacks differ from their impoverished, thuggish counterparts in the ghetto because they are genetically different; "buppies" have higher IQ's, more discipline, and are less impulsive than their inner city brethren. Cultural differences are indeed in large share responsible for differences between groups of people, most so of the differences between people in different parts of the world, especially between countries at different levels of development. But for groups of people within the same country, more of the differences between them are due to genetic differences (something that is totally politically incorrect to say, but is true nonetheless). Sure, these groups are different culturally, but that is in part due to the fact that people embrace cultural mores that come naturally to them—especially so in a free country that stresses individuality. There is a reason hip-hop is so popular with blacks and to a lesser extent, Latinos, particularly the ones with more black admixture like Puerto Ricans and Dominicans; it speaks to their need for flashy high status and short-sighted machismo. Unfortunately, the reason that genetic explanations for group differences rub many people the wrong way (as we've seen here)—despite the considerable evidence for them—is that they mean to a certain extent these differences are intractable. It seems pointless to spend tons of money uplifting poor black and Latino students in the ghetto who are failing in school and dropping out; they will always continue to do so in large numbers because they typically lack the traits to excel in school, a concept that is more a European and East Asian construct and one that is largely alien to blacks and to a lesser extent Latinos (at least to their black and Native American parts). Indeed this is the case, but this is symptomatic of a larger problem in American society: we haven't quite figured out what to do with the losers in this meritocracy we crafted. One way to address the problem is to try to attack the root of the problem: shape the genetics of these groups. We could encourage more children among the more successful black and brown people, through tax breaks, scholarships, and financial support for each child, and we could discourage the less successful from reproducing, through you guessed it: more support for Planned Parenthood and more expansion into poor black and brown neighborhoods. Perhaps even cash prizes to poor black and brown dropouts for NOT having children; a kind of new welfare, that pays the exact opposite of how it does now (which rewards more children). These would take many generations to effect noticeable change in the population, but it would be a step in the right direction considering the current breeding trend, which is NOT fostering increased talent. These things would cost money, but then how much do we already spend on futilely trying to reshape black schools, putting black offenders in prison, and on welfare to black and brown mothers? (BTW, these ideas are equally applicable to WHITE people, and people of all races for that matter, to try to encourage reproduction in the right direction.) |
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Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 25 04:02:11 2011, in response to Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas), posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 25 03:24:52 2011. Revisiting this, I noticed that a key belief underlying your thought on race issues is that you seem to believe that differences between groups of people is primarily due to differences in culture: middle-class, suburban blacks are more well-behaved and higher performing because they have a better culture and shun the "ghetto hip-hop thug" mentality—you seem to think. I think to an extent you believe that this is the source of differences between the races. You really don't know black people or minorities. You got the hell out of NY and you never looked back. Got yourself a house or apartment in as white an environment as you could and prefer an environment where there are lots of white people with fuel efficient automobiles and little dogs. My point is that blacks of all backgrounds embrace the "ghetto hip-hop thug" mentality. Whether they're from Queensbridge Houses or a one-family tree-lined street on Long Island or even rural Pennsylvania(Poconos or Lehigh Valley) there seems to be a trend, almost a movement, to embrace the "ghetto" culture. For you to say that suburban blacks shun the ghetto and hip-hop culture exposes you for the out-of-touch liberal that you are. This embracing of the ghetto is in the form of first names, dress, attitudes towards white people, education, police, music, etc....... Whites have many cultures to chose from I guess. There are yuppies. There are rednecks. There are guidos. Those girls in the video posted by Mr. Mabstoa are ghetto even if they live in a solid middle class household as I suspect they do. Do they look like they live in a ghetto? It does not matter anyway. They are culturally ghetto. It's a lifestyle. An attitude. Haven't you ever met a black person who says "y'all" meanwhile they were born in Suffolk County Long Island or Queensbridge? Why is that? Why would someone from the north speak with a southern accent? |
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Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) |
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Posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 25 04:14:56 2011, in response to Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas), posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 25 04:02:11 2011. For you to say that suburban blacks shun the ghetto and hip-hop culture exposes you for the out-of-touch liberal that you are.I meant relatively speaking. Obviously as a black person I have a lot of black relatives...(who would have guessed...that's not even to mention that I grew up in the South Bronx...), and for the most part they don't embrace the thug lifestyle (that's different from saying they don't like rap music). Middle class (and the tiny handful of upper class) blacks are a lot less thuggish than South Bronx blacks, on average. Their kids, who regress towards the black mean, tend to be more into the thug life. My point is that blacks of all backgrounds embrace the "ghetto hip-hop thug" mentality. Whether they're from Queensbridge Houses or a one-family tree-lined street on Long Island or even rural Pennsylvania(Poconos or Lehigh Valley) there seems to be a trend, almost a movement, to embrace the "ghetto" culture. Yes, and here we are more in agreement. I am saying that blacks embrace "gansta" culture because blacks particularly like hip-hop culture. The lower IQ and less accomplished the black person, the typically more they act the thug life. You're picking a bone where there is none! :p |
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Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 25 04:30:28 2011, in response to Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas), posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 25 04:14:56 2011. I'd like to know where you see middle class blacks not imitating the thug life. Where have blacks really established a solid middle class environment where they have left the ghetto mentality and lifestyle behind?If you look at Long Island, The Poconos, Newburgh, etc....all indications are that blacks leave the urban environments only to recreate the ghetto in suburban and rural places. Check out this story not far from where I live. It is making international headlines. LOL @ 'The Courts' Think life is really that bad in "The Courts"? |
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| (770012) | |
Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 25 04:32:07 2011, in response to Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas), posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 25 04:30:28 2011. btw- If these brits were killed by "Tea Party" types Scorpio0 and Kew Gardens Teleport would be all over it. |
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Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) |
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Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Mon Apr 25 13:40:15 2011, in response to Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas), posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 25 04:30:28 2011. I'd like to know where you see middle class blacks not imitating the thug life. Where have blacks really established a solid middle class environment where they have left the ghetto mentality and lifestyle behind?WOW, man, they DO exist. The problem is that these people are ridiculed as trying to be "white", and slurs like "Uncle Tom" are thrown around. Completely shunning the ghetto/thug/hip-hop culture, speaking proper english, etc, apparently equals trying to be someone of another race. Also, when people make a successful life for themselves and leave the "'hood" and make a better life for themselves, they are expected to "give back to the black community" and support black people over anyone else without question or risk being marked as a sell-out. I still say the IQ "facts" are bunk and highly offensive. |
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| (770121) | |
Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Apr 25 14:12:15 2011, in response to Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas), posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 25 04:30:28 2011. I'd like to know where you see middle class blacks not imitating the thug life. Where have blacks really established a solid middle class environment where they have left the ghetto mentality and lifestyle behind?What planet do you live on? Maybe 10% of the people who work at my company on my floor are black. None of them sound like ghetto thugs. When they are talking among themselves and don't know that anyone else is within earshot, they may talk with a bit more of an accent than otherwise. But nothing they ever say could be called "imitating the thug life". These are not all highly paid people either. I'm including maintenance workers. |
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| (770124) | |
Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) |
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Posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 25 14:39:26 2011, in response to Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas), posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 25 04:30:28 2011. You really don't know black people or minorities. You got the hell out of NY and you never looked back. Got yourself a house or apartment in as white an environment as you could and prefer an environment where there are lots of white people with fuel efficient automobiles and little dogs.My point is that blacks of all backgrounds embrace the "ghetto hip-hop thug" mentality. Whether they're from Queensbridge Houses or a one-family tree-lined street on Long Island or even rural Pennsylvania(Poconos or Lehigh Valley) there seems to be a trend, almost a movement, to embrace the "ghetto" culture. That's going past discussion of group tendencies to the territory of sweeping generalization. Intelligent, accomplished blacks DO exist. Like many of the blacks here, many of whom have taken offense to my pointing out that there is a difference in the average intelligence of blacks and whites, these blacks do stay in school; they get college degrees; they hold down jobs; they don't break the law; they raise families in nice homes in the suburbs. One of them even became President (gasp!). And even within not so affluent blacks, you have many dutifully working in skilled and unskilled labor. To pretend that there aren't upscale, well-behaved, and hard-working blacks is racist. I'd like to know where you see middle class blacks not imitating the thug life. Where have blacks really established a solid middle class environment where they have left the ghetto mentality and lifestyle behind? If you look at Long Island, The Poconos, Newburgh, etc....all indications are that blacks leave the urban environments only to recreate the ghetto in suburban and rural places. Check out this story not far from where I live. It is making international headlines. I think you're mistaking existence with prevalence. It's not like the selection for blacks in middle- and upper class neighborhoods is perfect (particularly when these trouble spots you point out look like they contain a lot of lower-income apartment complexes). Many of the less accomplished and more thuggish ones will get in. And even if the selection was more perfect (say, if the hard requirement to live in these areas was a minimum $75,000/yr income), you still have the problem of regression towards the mean. The children of these accomplished blacks will tend to be less talented than their parents and more like typical blacks (not to mention I'm sure a lot of these families import some of their poor relatives from the ghetto). As such, you're still going to get crime and thug life even in suburbia. Even still I'd be willing to bet that the crime rate is lower than in the inner city ghetto, and I'd bet the problem is more acute the less "exclusive" the neighborhood becomes. |
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Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) |
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Posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 25 14:56:14 2011, in response to Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas), posted by The Flxible Neofan on Mon Apr 25 13:40:15 2011. Interesting you say that when your point out something:WOW, man, they DO exist. The problem is that these people are ridiculed as trying to be "white", and slurs like "Uncle Tom" are thrown around. Completely shunning the ghetto/thug/hip-hop culture, speaking proper english, etc, apparently equals trying to be someone of another race. that is consistent with the notion of genetic difference between blacks and whites. I still say the IQ "facts" are bunk and highly offensive. Sometimes the truth does hurt. It is still no less true. |
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Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) |
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Posted by Easy on Mon Apr 25 15:54:33 2011, in response to Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas), posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 25 14:56:14 2011. There is no truth to your assertion that acting "thug" correlates with a lower IQ. You made that up. |
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Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) |
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Posted by Easy on Mon Apr 25 16:02:19 2011, in response to Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas), posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 25 04:30:28 2011. You're out of touch. Thug life is fading and replaced by skinny pants and Vans. ;)I don't know about Tampa, LI, or the Poconos or even the outer suburbs of LA, but the gang/thug culture around me and in South LA/Compton is considerably less than 10 years ago. Not that there aren't plenty of thugs and gang bangers, but they are the exception, not the norm. |
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Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Apr 25 16:27:06 2011, in response to Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas), posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 25 04:30:28 2011. "If you look at Long Island, The Poconos, Newburgh, etc....all indications are that blacks leave the urban environments only to recreate the ghetto in suburban and rural places.'Say Luchie...ever heard of Lakeview, LI, NY? eh? if you go there...you won't find your thug/ghetto that you so want to label it......and there ARE other enclaves like it across the USA. Where do you recieve your PhD in Sociology? was it at "Whatsamatta U.?" |
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Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) |
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Posted by SMAZ on Mon Apr 25 17:42:57 2011, in response to Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas), posted by Easy on Mon Apr 25 16:02:19 2011. He's stuck in the 90's.he still thinks that youths listen to Metallica and Guns 'n Roses. |
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| (770212) | |
Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 25 18:27:37 2011, in response to Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas), posted by AlM on Mon Apr 25 14:12:15 2011. What planet do you live on?LOL. That's so clever. Maybe 10% of the people who work at my company on my floor are black. None of them sound like ghetto thugs Gee ya think so? We're not talking about adults. We're talking about teens and early twenties. Sure, those in your office don't say "Y'all" or "N-word" or whatever just like Italians in an office won't say "What's up cuz", or will try to lose the Italian-American accent in an office environment. But wherever the black population reaches a critical mass, whether it be in the big cities, suburbs, or rural areas, you are going to get the walk, the talk, the dress, the culturally ghetto people. In other words, you'll get the girls in the video posted by Mr. Mabstoa. Did you see the girls in the video posted by Mr. Mabstoa? Those girls are culturally black and you can expect to find them in public schools from Queensbridge Projects to rural Pennsylvania to suburban DC. Not all black girls are like that. But they're not at all uncommon either. By the way, this also applies to Hispanics. From the big cities to the burbs to rural America, you get the teens and early twenties who are culturally "barrio". Same things really. |
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Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) |
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Posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 25 19:14:07 2011, in response to Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas), posted by Easy on Mon Apr 25 15:54:33 2011. "Thug" in this context is a proxy for "criminal behavior", since that's what we're really concerned with. And there is considerable evidence that the crime rate peaks in the IQ range of 70-90, where the bulk of black Americans lie. |
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Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 25 20:51:06 2011, in response to Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas), posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 25 14:39:26 2011. you have many dutifully working in skilled and unskilled labor. To pretend that there aren't upscale, well-behaved, and hard-working blacks is racist.Who in the heck is suggesting that isn't the case? For the most part, we're talking about teens and twenty-somethings. Crime might be lower in minority suburbia but let's face it, it's still a major problem. I think those girls in the Mr. Mabstoa(and the daily features on sites like World Star Hip Hop) are too common in the minority community. Not all blacks are like this of course. But ghetto, hip-hop inner-city, barrio behavior, mentality, dress, speak, etc........is never hard to find wherever minorities go, unless they are upper class. In other news, Yahoo just reported that Flavor Flav's fried chicken joint in Iowa is closing down. Talk about a racist concept. Using a black celebrity to brand a fried chicken joint in 2011. Unreal. |
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Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) |
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Posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 25 21:02:09 2011, in response to Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas), posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 25 20:51:06 2011. >>>>you have many dutifully working in skilled and unskilled labor. To pretend that there aren't upscale, well-behaved, and hard-working blacks is racist.Who in the heck is suggesting that isn't the case? For the most part, we're talking about teens and twenty-somethings. And there are many in that age group working hard and leading decent lives. The problem you describe isn't mysterious (well, to race realists anyway), nor is it as bad as you make out everywhere. The percentage of black and brown people in a neighborhood is a good proxy for the crime rate, but that said, they are many well off black (and to a lesser extent, brown) areas. It is more of a useful shorthand to associate dark with crime, and yes, we all (I) agree that typically when black and brown people move into a neighborhood it deteriorates. Though do recognize that this is statistically speaking and understand the limitations. |
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Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 25 21:37:03 2011, in response to Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas), posted by JayMan on Mon Apr 25 21:02:09 2011. we all (I) agree that typically when black and brown people move into a neighborhood it deterioratesOk. So why did you say "of course she has to be black" when someone here posted the video of the black girl going off at Burger King? |
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Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Tue Apr 26 09:01:07 2011, in response to Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas), posted by streetcarman1 on Mon Apr 25 16:27:06 2011. Have you ever heard of the Fleetwood section of Mount Vernon, NY? Have you ever heard of the Cambria Heights section of Queens, NY?Have you ever heard of the Addesleigh Park section of Queens, NY? Have you ever heard of these areas in and around the Atlanta, Georgia area: -Sandtown -South Fulton -Cascade -Southwest Atlanta -Collier Heights -Fairburn -Union City -parts of College Park -North Fayette County -Stone Mountain -Lithonia -Redan -South DeKalb -Cedar Grove -Panthersville -Clarkston -Mableton -Fairview |
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Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) |
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Posted by Train Dude on Tue Apr 26 09:09:48 2011, in response to Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas), posted by streetcarman1 on Tue Apr 26 09:01:07 2011. You seem to be debating with yourself again. I'll be away for a few days. Do let me know how this one turns out, when I get back. |
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Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) |
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Posted by streetcarman1 on Tue Apr 26 09:15:20 2011, in response to Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas), posted by Train Dude on Tue Apr 26 09:09:48 2011. "You seem to be debating with yourself again. I'll be away for a few days. Do let me know how this one turns out, when I get back."Have fun in the rubber room then! lol  |
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Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) |
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Posted by JayMan on Tue Apr 26 09:27:48 2011, in response to Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas), posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 25 21:37:03 2011. Let me tell you a story:My gf and I were coming home from Maine and we were on I-495 south in Mass when we see this dude just weaving back and forth through traffic, just cutting in front of everybody, making us all have to brake, and generally fucking up the flow of traffic. What's more he seemed to be blissfully going about it if he was Mr. Cool (he was driving a little POS car on top of it). My gf and I are commenting that it's people like him that cause accidents. I say I bet he's a New Yorker because New Yorkers have been established to be the worst drivers in the country. We roll up a bit and yep, we see a New York tag. So then I say now don't be Asian on top of it. We get up ahead, and sure enough, he's Asian! Like I said, (quoting Satoshi Kanazawa) "all stereotypes are true." But it's still disappointing seeing someone live up to a negative stereotype, even though I know that if they didn't much of the time, it wouldn't be a stereotype. |
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Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas) |
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Posted by Train Dude on Tue Apr 26 09:39:11 2011, in response to Re: The Exception That Proves The Rule (was: Another GOPer with hateful ideas), posted by JayMan on Tue Apr 26 09:27:48 2011. "So then I say now don't be Asian on top of it."Actually it would seem that you'd be hoping that he was Asian as it would reinforce your stereotypical perception of them. |
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Re: Another GOPer with hateful ideas |
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Posted by Dan Lawrence on Fri May 6 19:42:23 2011, in response to Re: Another GOPer with hateful ideas, posted by Scorpio7 on Sun Apr 24 18:19:10 2011. If you Google "Olog-hai" you find out it's the name of a Third Earth troll. Fits the poster like a glove. |
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