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(321890)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 11:30:07 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by fdtutf on Mon Jan 9 17:07:41 2017.

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My numbers are not fake. DOT stated there are 33,000 daily bus riders in the corridor. Traffic counts show between 30,000 and 50,000 motor vehicles crossing all major intersections. If we assume every car from Rockaway rides all the way to Queens Blvd, and no other cars use the roadway at all, certainly an impossibility, there already would be the same numbers of people riding buses as in cars. Assuming, that those traveling from Rockway account for half the roadway users, then there are 100,000 daily motor vehicle uses (assuming each car carries only one passenger which we also know is not true) there are already three people using cars to each bus rider.

Most likely the ratio of those in cars and trucks and motorcycles to the number in buses are even greater than three to one, perhaps four or five to one, if there are 150,000 daily users in motor vehicles excluding buses. For that to be true there only would have to be a turnover of three fold, not hard to imagine considering cars that may use Woodhaven only for a few blocks. It is perfectly logical to include them since the 33,000 daily bus riders includes riders who may be traveling only a half mile.

(321891)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 11:38:22 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Jan 9 23:39:40 2017.

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You are incorrect. The entire purpose of using TEA's was to override signals to keep traffic moving. We don't need them to enforce signals. That is the job of the cameras.

I remember when TEA's used to prevent huge traffic jams. That just isn't a priority anymore, so they have been removed. The priority now is to raise as much revenue as possible from parking tickets so that is where they are now assigned.

As for upgraded signal controllers, I have since learned that every signal controller has already been upgraded but they will not be used to give buses priority because it will take another year or two to upgrade all the buses so the technology can work.

I do not know what else these new signals are capable of doing or if they are doing anything new now. But from all the signals I see that are out of sync, perhaps purposely, so that your signal turns green just as the following one turns red, I am not encouraged.

(321892)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 11:42:52 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue Jan 3 13:26:09 2017.

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That is an old photo before the bike lanes were put in when there were four lanes each way. Now it is only three.

(321893)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 11:48:24 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Jan 4 11:21:13 2017.

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Okay, so how would you Insure that no one exceeds 25 mph on Queens Blvd?

It already has bike lanes. Would you remove more lanes or make them narrower so as to impede emergency vehicles and unusable for trucks?

Remember that removing more lanes may cause cars to slow down to 25 mph in non rush hours but would bring traffic to a complete gaunt during rush hours. Is that what you want? Zero speed means zero deaths and Vision Zero is achieved. Voila!

(321895)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 11:52:37 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Jan 4 13:48:11 2017.

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Airplanes also use roadways in the sky. They just don't fly wherever they want.

And I believe regulations are proportionate to the danger which is why I believe you can get a pilot's license at a younger age than an auto license, and why no license is required to operate a boat or bicycle.

The question is how well are the regulations enforced.

(321896)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 12:01:12 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BusMgr on Wed Jan 4 23:55:53 2017.

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According to your logic, someone choosing to fly should absorb all the risk and liability of flying with the airlines being allowed to operate unsafe planes that are improperly inspected.

Also anyone driving a car or being a passenger in one should absorb all the risk and liability. What about the auto manufacturer? What about government? Remember the guard rails that caused cars to be sheared in half because some municipalities wanted to save a few bucks by installing guard rails that weren't properly designed to behave as they should?

You are greatly oversimplifying risk and responsibility here. Safety is everyone's responsibility and that includes manufacturers, government, drivers and yes pedestrians and cyclists. If lanes are thoroughly worn out or signage is missing or confusing and that causes a fatality, government is also responsible.

(321897)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 12:05:05 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Jan 4 11:38:32 2017.

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I would think you could determine speed according to the amount of damage to the vehicle. A car doesn't turn over going at 10 mph and doesn't get sheared in half going at 30 mph. If there are witnesses, then it is even easier.

(321898)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 12:15:55 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jan 3 23:43:18 2017.

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Yes more than 85 percent are willfully speeding when it is possible to do so. That is because in cases when a law makes no sense, people will not abide by it. That's why cars rarely come to a complete stop at a stop sign if there is no car in front of them. That is why virtually everyone jaywalks when there is little or no traffic. That's why Prohibition was a failure and had to be repealed. So don't try to make it appear that drivers are more lawless than the general population.

When I said most of the accidents are caused by those going at 50 or 60, I meant to say most of the accidents that cause fatalities are caused by those going at 50 or 60 mph. Probably most of the rest are caused by turning vehicles and a small percentage by pedestrians jumping out from between parked cars. Cars going 30 mph in a 25 mph zone are probably causing a negligible amount of fatalities.

The 99.6 percent of the collisions you refer to are mostly minor fender benders where pedestrians are not even involved, so your conclusion to punish all drivers by making travel at unrealistically slow speeds to reduce impact speeds is fallacious. You are not considering any of other effects of too slow speed limits.

(321899)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue Jan 10 12:16:25 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jan 10 10:11:31 2017.

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It would appear that nobody bothered checking the Q52/Q53 schedule to see how accurate the simulation is at predicting the then current situation. Such a check would have revealed that the then current running time (May 2016) between these two stops to be 6.3 minutes. No observer should have much faith in the projected time savings from the simulation, until any simulation more accurately predicts the current state.

And every bus is on time in the a.m. peak?

Looking at Bustime data for 10/22/2014 (a random weekday), travel time between Jamaica Avenue and Metropolitan Avenue for northbound Q52 and Q53 buses ranges from 10 to 15 minutes between 7:30 and 9:00 a.m. The model looks OK to me, but the schedule may need some work to reflect actual traffic conditions.

(321900)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by fdtutf on Tue Jan 10 12:26:52 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 11:10:55 2017.

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My comment makes no such assumption.

Of course it does. If the entire street space were not allocated to automobiles, there would be no need to "show pedestrians where they should cross."

According to you the city is wrong by restricting pedestrians to sidewalks and crosswalks. You believe they should be able to walk right in the traffic lanes even though there are perfectly usable sidewalks. That is ridiculous.

Far too many streets, even in New York, lack "perfectly usable sidewalks." Pro tip: The fact that a sidewalk exists in some identifiable form doesn't make it "perfectly usable."

(321901)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by fdtutf on Tue Jan 10 12:31:12 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 11:30:07 2017.

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My numbers are not fake. DOT stated there are 33,000 daily bus riders in the corridor. Traffic counts show between 30,000 and 50,000 motor vehicles crossing all major intersections. If we assume every car from Rockaway rides all the way to Queens Blvd, and no other cars use the roadway at all, certainly an impossibility, there already would be the same numbers of people riding buses as in cars. Assuming, that those traveling from Rockway account for half the roadway users, then there are 100,000 daily motor vehicle uses (assuming each car carries only one passenger which we also know is not true) there are already three people using cars to each bus rider.

Most likely the ratio of those in cars and trucks and motorcycles to the number in buses are even greater than three to one, perhaps four or five to one, if there are 150,000 daily users in motor vehicles excluding buses. For that to be true there only would have to be a turnover of three fold, not hard to imagine considering cars that may use Woodhaven only for a few blocks. It is perfectly logical to include them since the 33,000 daily bus riders includes riders who may be traveling only a half mile.


Since the level of inconvenience involved is related to the distance and time spent on the street, what we really need is passenger-mile figures.

Somebody who only drives on Woodhaven for a few blocks should not count for just as much as someone who takes the bus half the length of the corridor (theoretically speaking, of course), and it's dishonest of you to blithely assert that they should.

(321902)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jan 10 12:40:14 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 11:19:45 2017.

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Stephen Bauman have shown you data from the existing bus lanes that show it has slowed traffic significantly in the peak direction during the peak hour which us most important

Don't misquote me.

I said two things. First, that the simulation model baseline used by NYCDOT did not accurately simulate the published bus schedule. Second, that the published scheduled bus travel time increased between the extremes of the dedicated bus lane increased after installation.

I did not extrapolate the bus schedule to general traffic speed. I have no independent data regarding vehicle speed on Woodhaven Blv by which to make such a comparison.

(321904)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by fdtutf on Tue Jan 10 13:02:30 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 12:01:12 2017.

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According to your logic, someone choosing to fly should absorb all the risk and liability of flying with the airlines being allowed to operate unsafe planes that are improperly inspected.

That's an extraordinarly inapt comparison, and I'm being kind.

Someone who chooses to drive also owns the vehicle he or she drives and takes responsibility for its condition, etc. There's no valid comparison with an airline passenger, who buys a ticket on a vehicle owned, operated, maintained, and inspected by the airline.

Also anyone driving a car or being a passenger in one should absorb all the risk and liability. What about the auto manufacturer? What about government? Remember the guard rails that caused cars to be sheared in half because some municipalities wanted to save a few bucks by installing guard rails that weren't properly designed to behave as they should?

That's typical misdirection from you. Of course the auto manufacturer shares some of the risk (that portion attributable to the design and manufacture of the vehicle), and so does the government (that portion attributable to the design and maintenance of the roadway).

The point is that none of this devolves onto the pedestrian, who is completely outside the matter.

(321905)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jan 10 13:12:05 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 11:48:24 2017.

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how would you Insure that no one exceeds 25 mph on Queens Blvd?

There are many ways to reduce vehicular speed mentioned in the two links provided in these two references. Most don't involve a reduction in the number of lanes. There are limits to what can be applied to Queens Blv because it is a State Highway (NY 24). Reducing lane width to 9 feet, raised intersections and pavement treatments are some of the techniques mentioned.

(321906)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jan 10 13:15:12 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 11:52:37 2017.

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Airplanes also use roadways in the sky.

That depends on whether they are flying under visual flight rules or instrument flight rules.

(321907)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 10 13:15:38 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jan 10 12:40:14 2017.

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Don't misquote me.
Owned.

(321908)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 10 13:16:52 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 11:19:45 2017.

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There are hundreds who believe traffic will move slower and those are the ones who use Woodhaven every day.
Wow. After what, supposedly 30 years in the business, and you still don't know that laymen don't always understand things correctly?

(321909)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jan 10 13:21:42 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 12:05:05 2017.

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I would think you could determine speed according to the amount of damage to the vehicle.

It's also easy to determine the speed by the amount of damage done to a pedestrian. The KSI probability is 50% or greater when the vehicle is going 30 mph or more. The KSI probability is reduced to 30% and 15% at impact speeds of 25 and 20 mph respectively.

(321910)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 10 13:41:03 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue Jan 10 10:20:28 2017.

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w!n

(321911)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 10 13:43:40 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 11:38:22 2017.

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You are incorrect.
LOL! I'm not incorrect. I'll try to respond later.

(321912)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by fdtutf on Tue Jan 10 14:10:46 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 10 13:16:52 2017.

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All real planners know that non-planners are the best experts! They have the best brains.

(321913)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by AlM on Tue Jan 10 14:13:47 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue Jan 10 10:20:28 2017.

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Everything is a trade-off between reducing travel time on the one hand and reducing traffic deaths on the other hand. Deaths would be really low if vehicles were restricted to no more than 10 mph.

However, all these trade-offs are done without anyone acknowledging (or most people knowing) what the trade-off of deaths vs hours saved actually is.


(321914)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by fdtutf on Tue Jan 10 14:18:56 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by AlM on Tue Jan 10 14:13:47 2017.

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However, all these trade-offs are done without anyone acknowledging (or most people knowing) what the trade-off of deaths vs hours saved actually is.

Exactly -- up until now, the assumption has simply been that reductions in automobile travel time are to be pursued regardless of any cost in lives that may be entailed. That's immoral, frankly.

(321915)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 10 14:39:51 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 12:05:05 2017.

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I would think you could determine speed according to the amount of damage to the vehicle. A car doesn't turn over going at 10 mph and doesn't get sheared in half going at 30 mph.
No, you can't. It's not so simple. And it depends what you hit or what hit you.

Newton's second law

(321916)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 10 14:40:48 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by fdtutf on Tue Jan 10 14:10:46 2017.

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:)

(321917)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue Jan 10 14:43:10 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by AlM on Tue Jan 10 14:13:47 2017.

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Everything is a trade-off between reducing travel time on the one hand and reducing traffic deaths on the other hand. Deaths would be really low if vehicles were restricted to no more than 10 mph.



But that risk isn't appreciably lower at 10 mph than it is at 25 mph, so 25 mph is a good compromise. Since children and the elderly are more vulnerable, 20 mph is more appropriate than 25 mph where pedestrians are more likely to be children or elderly.

(321918)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by JerBear on Tue Jan 10 15:03:21 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 11:19:45 2017.

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There are thousands of people who think the world is flat, so that tells you what you get with people just believing.

I absolutely ignore data from a partial project. Those lanes were planned as part of a larger set of improvements that haven't been implemented yet (like bus signal prioritization). The Belt has had some improvements. Should I judge it today, or wait until it's actually done?

You not knowing the assumptions of the model changes the efficacy of the model exactly not at all.

We're going around the world on this issue. Cars are physical objects that don't disappear. Yes, people change their trips like not going to see relatives. This means that you can not predict how traffic will flow after major changes to the corridor.

(321919)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by JerBear on Tue Jan 10 15:15:29 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 11:12:49 2017.

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No, not correct.
The slide says "... buses travel faster due to... off-board fare collection..."
It is not comparing just running times, as if you could just drive a car during that time period and replicate the results.
I am sure that they are using the boarding time saved at Myrtle, but I am willing to bet that they are also using the boarding time savings at the stops at each end of the segment.
Because if I want to present the best case of success for my proposal, I am going to squeeze those boundaries to be from just as the bus stops at the Jamaica Ave stop until it leaves the Metropolitan Ave stop. That way I get to count time savings from more stops and stops more popular than Myrtle.
So go back and look at the slide thinking about stop-drive-stop-drive-stop, instead of just drive-drive-drive or drive-stop-drive. Now those numbers don't seem so crazy.
Stephen, do you have the ability to use Bus Time data from before the Jamaica Ave stop to after the Metropolitan Ave stop?

(321920)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue Jan 10 16:18:04 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by JerBear on Tue Jan 10 15:15:29 2017.

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do you have the ability to use Bus Time data from before the Jamaica Ave stop to after the Metropolitan Ave stop?

Yes

(321921)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by AlM on Tue Jan 10 16:20:44 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue Jan 10 14:43:10 2017.

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Yet plenty of roads with traffic lights (at which pedestrians might be crossing) have speeds of 45 mph to 55 mph, and yet are still very safe. Why? Because traffic levels are lower.

You could reduce pedestrians deaths at those intersections by putting in subway-style timers to insure that no vehicle ever approaches a traffic light at more than 25 mph. But it isn't done because the time and cost vs death trade-off requires too much time and cost for every death prevented.



(321922)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by JerBear on Tue Jan 10 16:35:13 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue Jan 10 16:18:04 2017.

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And that includes the time the bus is stopped at the Jamaica Ave stop and the Metropolitan Ave stop, even though those are not "between Jamaica Avenue and Metropolitan Avenue"?

(321924)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jan 10 17:15:25 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by JerBear on Tue Jan 10 15:15:29 2017.

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Stephen, do you have the ability to use Bus Time data from before the Jamaica Ave stop to after the Metropolitan Ave stop?

Anyone has the ability to use the Bus Time data. It's publicly available without filing a FOIL request. There are problems using the Bus Time data.

First, readings are made every 30 seconds. This means that calculated time intervals might be as much as 1 minute off due to sampling errors. That's quite a bit for trying to detect a couple of minutes difference in a 6 to 10 minute duration.

Second, buses frequently are in shadows at the 30 second mark. This means data points are missing. So that 30 second sampling uncertainty can become a minute.

Third, the recorded data is essentially time, latitude and longitude and trip number. It's up to the programmer to figure out the position relative to the bus route. There's a derived output field that gives the "next bus stop." Sometimes it's wrong. The analyzer must take this into account.

Fourth, the driver is supposed to turn the transmitter off when the bus is not on the route. Sometimes they don't which leads to a lot of extra data. Other times they forget to turn the thing back on, when they start the route. This means not all buses along the route are recorded.

Finally, there is a ton of data. I downloaded and placed the data into a database for analysis. It came to over 50 Gig. That was for just for the historical data that's available on the MTA site. I just don't have the disk space to download all the data for a proper analysis within its sampling constraints.

(321926)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 17:58:00 2017, in response to Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Dec 26 10:23:59 2016.

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Read the second letter.

(321927)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 18:01:15 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jan 10 13:12:05 2017.

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Nine feet may be okay for cars, but trucks use this roadway also and nine feet lanes are just too narrow for large trucks which are like 8 1/2 feet wide. Are you proposing no passing also? You want traffic to standstill not travel slowly.

(321928)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 10 18:08:38 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by fdtutf on Thu Jan 5 08:40:16 2017.

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2. Such as?

(321929)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 18:11:04 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by fdtutf on Tue Jan 10 13:02:30 2017.

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Okay, so goverment bears some responsibility for safety as do auto manufacturers. Why you are leaving airlines off the hook is beyond me.

But the pedestrian and cyclists bear no resonsibility. Both can go out at night wearing all dark clothing and have no responsibilities to look out for vehicles. They can just walk down the street regardless if they are in a crosswalk or not or the color of the signal.

In the case if cyclists, they do not need any reflectors or lights BECAUSE IT IS THE COMPLETE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE AUTMOBILE DRIVER TO SEE THEM AND KNOW THEY ARE THERE. If a pedestrian jumps out unexpectedly from between two parked cars and is struck, it is because the driver was traveling too fast even if he is with the speed limit.

If that is how all pedestrians think, we would have a thousand times the number of crashes and fatalities that we have now. It's a good thing that the vast majority of pedestrians KNOW THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES and have more common sense than you have. When you get killed behaving the way you do, you won't be able to tell me the car driver was wrong. WAKE UP for your own sake.

(321930)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 18:13:27 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jan 10 13:21:42 2017.

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I have heard that argument numerous times before. It is just not convincing. If it were everyone would not be driving faster than 25 mph.

Other factors also need be considered.

(321931)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 18:17:56 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 10 14:39:51 2017.

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No one said it was simple, just possible when you consider all the factors. If it weren't possible like you say, you wouldn't hear estimates in the media like the police estimate the car was traveling in excess of 50 mph.

Even with the recent LIRR incident it wa s estimated that the train was traveling twice the speed limit of five mph. That was partially based on the amount of damage.

That is also how they knew the Hoboken train was traveling even faster because there also was damage to the station.

(321932)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 18:26:00 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 3 11:58:29 2017.

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In rural areas it is easy to tell the difference between a local road and a "highway".

In urban areas, only limited access roads are considered "highways". Names are often outdated and have nothing to do with what constitutes a highway. No one in his right mind would consider Kings Highway a "highway". That term is used for roads where you are allowed to travel at a high rate of speed.

Describing a street as a "highway" is just confusing. Just like including sidewalks when referring to a "street", although the legal definition of "street" includes the roadway and the sidewalk.

When someone wants to refer to the sidewalk, that is what they call it, not the street although legally they would be correct, but everyone would be confused.

(321933)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by TerrApin Station on Tue Jan 10 18:33:09 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jan 10 17:15:25 2017.

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How much space would you need?

(321934)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by TerrApin Station on Tue Jan 10 18:35:13 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 18:13:27 2017.

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What are you smoking??

(321935)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by R30A on Tue Jan 10 19:05:06 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 18:17:56 2017.

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Or perhaps the more likely outcome is that they downloaded the information from the train's event recorder?

(321937)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jan 10 19:06:24 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 18:01:15 2017.

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for large trucks which are like 8 1/2 feet wide

Such trucks are already prohibited from operating in NYC.

(321938)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jan 10 19:10:08 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 18:13:27 2017.

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I have heard that argument numerous times before. It is just not convincing

Get hit by a car traveling at 30 mph. Your heirs will be convinced.

There have been a lot of movies showing what happens to dummies in a car. There needs to be similar movies showing what happens to pedestrians in a collision.

(321943)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by TerrApin Station on Tue Jan 10 20:47:50 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jan 10 19:06:24 2017.

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Pwn3d!!!!!!

(321945)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue Jan 10 21:15:55 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jan 10 19:06:24 2017.

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Such trucks are already prohibited from operating in NYC.

No, 102" wide trucks are allowed on all truck routes if they are carrying household goods, or on truck routes within a mile of an interchange (which covers a lot of Queens Boulevard) if not. Also, buses are 102" wide.

(321946)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 10 22:06:06 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue Jan 10 21:15:55 2017.

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PWN3D!

(321947)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jan 10 22:23:24 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue Jan 10 21:15:55 2017.

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NYS Vehicle and Traffic Law



385. Dimensions and weights of vehicles.
1. (a) (i) The width of a vehicle, inclusive of load, shall be not more than ninety-six inches plus safety devices, except that the maximum width of a vehicle, inclusive of load, shall be one hundred two inches, plus safety devices, on any qualifying or access highway. Except in a city not wholly included within one county, the maximum width of a vehicle, inclusive of load shall not be more than one hundred two inches plus safety devices on any other highway with traffic lanes designed to be a width of ten feet or more.


Read again. 8 1/2 foot trucks are allowed only on qualified highways. In NYC, 8 1/2 foot trucks are allowed only on roads with lanes that are 10 feet wide or more. However, this discussion started with reducing the width of Queens Blv lanes to 9 feet to get vehicles to obey speed limit.

(321949)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BusMgr on Wed Jan 11 02:15:06 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 12:01:12 2017.

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The automobilist might have an indemnification claim against the manufacturer, etc. Safety is the responsibility of the party who introduces the hazard in the first place.

(321950)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BusMgr on Wed Jan 11 02:15:09 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 18:11:04 2017.

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If an automobilist does not want to assume the responsibility of the hazard caused by his or her motoring, then the automobilist should not motor.

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