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(321679)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jan 3 23:43:18 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 3 21:17:20 2017.

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I can assure you that traffic permitting, 85% of vehicles do not abide by the 25 mph speed limit.

So more than 85% of drivers are willfully driving illegally. As a class drivers appear to be a pretty lawless group.

NYS Vehicle and Traffic Law:

1180. Basic rule and maximum limits....
(d) 1. Except as provided in subdivision (g) of this section, whenever maximum speed limits, other than school speed limits, have been established as authorized in sections sixteen hundred twenty, sixteen hundred twenty-two, sixteen hundred twenty-three, sixteen hundred twenty-seven, sixteen hundred thirty, sixteen hundred forty-three, sixteen hundred forty-four, sixteen hundred fifty-two, sixteen hundred sixty-two-a, sixteen hundred sixty-three, and sixteen hundred seventy, no person shall drive in excess of such maximum speed limits at any time.


And .39% makes it appear that speeding isn't even really a problem.

You made the statement: "Most of the accidents are caused by those who are really speeding line at 50 or 60 mph."

It would appear that you were mistaken.

The NYPD crash reports indicate that 99.6% collisions occur when drivers are going at a "safe speed". If collisions cannot be avoided when going at a "safe speed", the only way to reduce pedestrian killed/severely injured is to make sure the impact speed is safe. Non-speeding drivers are not being penalized by such a policy because they create 99.4% of all collisions.

(321680)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jan 3 23:43:18 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 3 21:17:20 2017.

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I can assure you that traffic permitting, 85% of vehicles do not abide by the 25 mph speed limit.

So more than 85% of drivers are willfully driving illegally. As a class drivers appear to be a pretty lawless group.

NYS Vehicle and Traffic Law:

1180. Basic rule and maximum limits....
(d) 1. Except as provided in subdivision (g) of this section, whenever maximum speed limits, other than school speed limits, have been established as authorized in sections sixteen hundred twenty, sixteen hundred twenty-two, sixteen hundred twenty-three, sixteen hundred twenty-seven, sixteen hundred thirty, sixteen hundred forty-three, sixteen hundred forty-four, sixteen hundred fifty-two, sixteen hundred sixty-two-a, sixteen hundred sixty-three, and sixteen hundred seventy, no person shall drive in excess of such maximum speed limits at any time.


And .39% makes it appear that speeding isn't even really a problem.

You made the statement: "Most of the accidents are caused by those who are really speeding line at 50 or 60 mph."

It would appear that you were mistaken.

The NYPD crash reports indicate that 99.6% collisions occur when drivers are going at a "safe speed". If collisions cannot be avoided when going at a "safe speed", the only way to reduce pedestrian killed/severely injured is to make sure the impact speed is safe. Non-speeding drivers are not being penalized by such a policy because they create 99.4% of all collisions.

(321681)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Catfish 44 on Tue Jan 3 23:45:30 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jan 3 23:43:18 2017.

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99.6% are driving at a safe speed.
That's remarkable.

(321683)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jan 4 00:39:13 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by AlM on Tue Jan 3 20:55:17 2017.

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Broadway below 59th. It used to be a valuable bus route.

According to my 1975 Geographia: Only the M10 and M104 used Broadway between 59th and 42nd St. The M10 turned onto 7th Ave to go further downtown and the M104 turned east to First Ave.

The M6 and M7, the two routes that used Broadway below 42nd St, used 7th Ave to go between 59th and 42nd St.

It's difficult for me to see why Bway below 59th is "valuable." There wasn't a continuous route along it.

If you do want a continuous route down Bway, use the Citibike station at 58th St.

Much of 2nd Ave. has 1 lane less than it used to - slowing down traffic considerably.

Can you be still more specific? The full width of 2nd Ave remains intact at its two busiest sections: the Queensboro Bridge and the Midtown Tunnel. 2nd Ave has been a traffic mess thanks to both the SAS and 3rd water tunnel construction.

(321684)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jan 4 00:39:13 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by AlM on Tue Jan 3 20:55:17 2017.

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Broadway below 59th. It used to be a valuable bus route.

According to my 1975 Geographia: Only the M10 and M104 used Broadway between 59th and 42nd St. The M10 turned onto 7th Ave to go further downtown and the M104 turned east to First Ave.

The M6 and M7, the two routes that used Broadway below 42nd St, used 7th Ave to go between 59th and 42nd St.

It's difficult for me to see why Bway below 59th is "valuable." There wasn't a continuous route along it.

If you do want a continuous route down Bway, use the Citibike station at 58th St.

Much of 2nd Ave. has 1 lane less than it used to - slowing down traffic considerably.

Can you be still more specific? The full width of 2nd Ave remains intact at its two busiest sections: the Queensboro Bridge and the Midtown Tunnel. 2nd Ave has been a traffic mess thanks to both the SAS and 3rd water tunnel construction.

(321685)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jan 4 00:46:34 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Catfish 44 on Tue Jan 3 23:45:30 2017.

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You misquoted me. I did place safe speed in quotations.

(321686)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 4 01:26:55 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jan 4 00:39:13 2017.

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Citibike is not a universal alternative to bus service and is usually more expensive.

That Broadway did not have a continuous route is irrelevant. The portion between 42nd and 14th Streets did have continuous bus routes and was sufficiently long. I don't know if those routes were well patronized, but your argument that Broadway was irrelevant because those routes used a different avenue for a short part of the route is silly.

(321687)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jan 4 07:49:15 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 4 01:26:55 2017.

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Citibike is not a universal alternative to bus service and is usually more expensive.

Citibike is $155 for an entire year. One reason for their early financial problems is that they did not think most people would opt for a yearly membership. New Yorkers knew a bargain, when they saw it.

That Broadway did not have a continuous route is irrelevant. The portion between 42nd and 14th Streets did have continuous bus routes and was sufficiently long.

What it meant is that people @ 59th St who wanted to proceed on Broadway below 42nd st were obliged to walk over to 7th Ave to catch a bus. If they walked over to 7th Ave today, they would catch a downtown BMT subway today for the same journey.

The M6 and M7 between 59th St and points south became redundant when the BMT was extended to 57th St in 1919. They continued to operate because of franchise agreements, their need as a vital transportation link had been marginalized.

(321688)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jan 4 07:49:15 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 4 01:26:55 2017.

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Citibike is not a universal alternative to bus service and is usually more expensive.

Citibike is $155 for an entire year. One reason for their early financial problems is that they did not think most people would opt for a yearly membership. New Yorkers knew a bargain, when they saw it.

That Broadway did not have a continuous route is irrelevant. The portion between 42nd and 14th Streets did have continuous bus routes and was sufficiently long.

What it meant is that people @ 59th St who wanted to proceed on Broadway below 42nd st were obliged to walk over to 7th Ave to catch a bus. If they walked over to 7th Ave today, they would catch a downtown BMT subway today for the same journey.

The M6 and M7 between 59th St and points south became redundant when the BMT was extended to 57th St in 1919. They continued to operate because of franchise agreements, their need as a vital transportation link had been marginalized.

(321691)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Jan 4 08:15:37 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jan 4 07:49:15 2017.

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Why are you double and triple-posting so much lately?

(321692)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by JerBear on Wed Jan 4 08:27:57 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Jan 3 21:35:48 2017.

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Wouldn't you need two lanes? Otherwise it would be a long train of buses all stuck behind the one ahead. You would need buses to be able to pass another bus when stopped.

(321694)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jan 4 08:34:12 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Jan 4 08:15:37 2017.

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Either I've developed a tremor in my index finger or the debounce action on the mouse doesn't work.

(321695)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by R30A on Wed Jan 4 10:03:10 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 3 21:01:26 2017.

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But you aren't.

(321699)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Jan 4 11:21:13 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jan 2 21:32:59 2017.

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The 85 percentile rule applies to highways, not the city speed limit. When traffic permits, very few abide by the 25 mph speed limit because most of the time (in good weather) it is ridiculous.

The 85th percentile rule absolutely applies to city streets (in fact, moreso than limited access highways which are usually governed by statutory speed limits). I agree completely that simply lowering a posted speed limit does nothing to slow traffic. The road has to be redesigned for the lower speed limit; adding bike lanes is one way of doing that.

(321700)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 4 11:23:31 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jan 4 07:49:15 2017.

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Citibike is $155 for an entire year

A single bus trip is $2.75. I'd have to ride the bus where Citibike is a viable alternative 63 times a year* in order to justify that. That seems low but it's significant. For one thing, bus rides are completely free when transferring to/from the subway. Citibike is useless to people who are carrying bags that are too big to fit in the basket but have no shoulder straps, for people unable to ride bikes either due to inability or infirmity, or during inclement weather.

What it meant is that people @ 59th St who wanted to proceed on Broadway below 42nd st were obliged to walk over to 7th Ave to catch a bus.

The M7 stopped and stops at Columbus Circle.

If they walked over to 7th Ave today, they would catch a downtown BMT subway today for the same journey.

The subway is also unavailable to people with certain infirmities, 57th, 49th downtown, 28th and 23rd Streets are not accessible to persons with ambulatory disabilities.

*This calculation takes into account the 11% bonus.

(321706)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Jan 4 11:38:32 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 3 21:17:20 2017.

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And .39% makes it appear that speeding isn't even really a problem. Is that the message you are sending?

It's hard to determine speed after a crash. Let's look at it this way: the database shows seven pedestrians and one cyclist killed on Queens Boulevard. The contributing factor was Traffic Control Disregarded for two, Failure to Yield Right-of-Way for one, Driver Inattention/Distraction for one, and Unspecified for four.

(321717)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Jan 4 13:39:59 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 3 21:10:38 2017.

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I would say that automobiles pose a greater threat to pedestrians than horses/wagons did as they are often heavier and capable of greater speeds. Of all the interests of everyone on the road, automobile interests are those least deserving of defending in my opinion. And I say that as a NYC resident owning a car and driving very frequently.

(321718)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Jan 4 13:48:11 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 3 21:13:52 2017.

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Airplanes do not use roadways (ordinarily). And they go through much more extensive regulation to keep them as safe as they are.

Trains are probably more dangerous than motor vehicles. . .they too have regulations.

I'm not fully sure of his point but I think it's just that the regulation should be proportionate to the danger. Automobiles are more dangerous to others than pedestrians and bicyclists so they should get greater regulation. How that translates into practice, however (like when is the regulation finally sufficient?) is open for discussion.

(321719)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Jan 4 13:49:16 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Jan 4 13:48:11 2017.

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Just to qualify my comment about trains. They are more inherently dangerous due to their weight and speed and gravity of impact if you are struck by one. I don't mean you're more likely to die on a train than in a car.

(321720)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Jan 4 13:56:07 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by JerBear on Wed Jan 4 08:27:57 2017.

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Depends. Trackless trolley routes don't pass each other, and do sometimes bunch up. It depends on how long a stretch we're talking about (if it's only a few blocks, it's not worth taking up another lane if the space isn't there). As I recall in San Juan, the stretches of the practice we're talking about aren't long enough that a bypass lane is all that necessary.

Not to change the topic but San Juan has changed over time. I don't think the buses run anywhere near as often as they used to. The route that used to be A5, is now called T5 and runs half-hourly or so. A5 used to be at least double or even triple that back in the early 2000s. And while I didn't get to look at all of the timetables, there were definitely less buses running around when I was down there this year.

(321721)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Jan 4 14:04:29 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Jan 4 11:21:13 2017.

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Some streets narrow the driving lane(s) by just drawing white buffer zones (not bike lanes) setting off the parking lane by the curb. I'm guessing this prevents (or at least discourages) the potentially dangerous practice of passing on the right.

Are bike lanes standard traffic calming measures?

(321723)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by fdtutf on Wed Jan 4 14:32:27 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 3 21:01:26 2017.

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In New York? Highly unlikely.

(321724)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by fdtutf on Wed Jan 4 14:33:33 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 3 21:03:23 2017.

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Walk and don't walk signs were added and crosswalks were better marked than previously.

That's not consideration for pedestrians' needs. That's consideration for motorists' needs, by trying to keep pedestrians out of their way.


(321725)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by fdtutf on Wed Jan 4 14:37:23 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by brightonr68 on Tue Jan 3 21:34:01 2017.

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Her in NYC it is a one way system. the drivers are responcible for a silly person who tries to run in front of a turning car.

How do you draw that conclusion, considering that the police virtually never blame motorists for pedestrian deaths and injuries?

I'm sorry, i will run over the pedestrians and take my chances rather than getting t-bones by the 1% of drivers who really speed.

Please stop driving and turn in your driver's license. With that attitude, you don't belong on the roads.


(321732)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Jan 4 19:02:46 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Jan 4 13:56:07 2017.

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San Juan outright eliminated Sunday service from all but 2 routes - budget is tight.

As for passing, the yellow line for their bus lanes is a dashed yellow which allows for the bus to pass by entering the reverse direction travelling lane, should conditions allow. Traffic lights will hold back even the busiest road so passing opportunities eventually happen.

(321737)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BusMgr on Wed Jan 4 23:22:24 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 3 21:08:29 2017.

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Bicycles are rarely the instruments of death; almost always it is an automobile that is the instrument of death. That being said, bicycles do pose some risk to others, especially when their operators act unexpectedly. In such cases, there ought to be accountability, though the death penalty is a bit severe.

(321738)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BusMgr on Wed Jan 4 23:35:47 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Jan 4 13:39:59 2017.

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Indeed, horse-drawn vehicles do pose some danger, as horse-drawn wagons can heavily laden. But the danger is less severe and of a different nature given the speed capabilities and sometimes the fact that there is an intelligent animal drawing the vehicle.

Sometimes, though, our lawmakers do not always recognize the distinctions between motor vehicles and horse-drawn vehicles. For example, I have read some cases where a horse-drawn buggy driver, having been drinking and falling asleep at the reins, while the horse continued on its way home, the driver would be cited for driving under the influence and its severe penalties. Yet there's a difference in the degree of danger posed between a buggy being pulled by a horse that knows the way home, and to avoid obstructions, and a inanimate motor vehicle.

Motor vehicles pose special dangers.

(321739)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BusMgr on Wed Jan 4 23:43:07 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by brightonr68 on Tue Jan 3 21:34:01 2017.

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Yes, it is wise to watch where one is walking. But for various reasons--including infancy, visual impairment, and mental defect--not everyone has that capability. Those that choose to take on the responsibilities of driving must exercise that choice in such a way as to avoid colliding with people who may not be looking where they're going.

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BusMgr on Wed Jan 4 23:55:53 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 3 21:13:52 2017.

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Transportation, as a whole, is a dangerous activity. Flying an airplane is dangerous . . . and in recent years we've taken additional steps to ensure that only those people best able to fly can do so (e.g., hardened cockpit doors). Operating a train is dangerous, as we've unfortunately seen recently in Philadelphia.

At its simplest, pedestrian travel itself is not especially dangerous, for rarely will a person colliding with another person cause serious injury. But with each "improvement" in travel, danger is increased as to the effects of a collision. And that scale would certainly include airplanes and trains. But ultimately the same question remains: who should bear the cost of the harm caused by using one of those "improved" means of travel? Should it not be the person choosing to use an "improved" means of travel absorb the risk and liability that such means imposes on those who forgo such "improvements"? Why should the pedestrian--who has already ceded a good part of the highway upon which he or she could otherwise travel--have to take precautions made necessary only because of the choices other people have made as to their travel, and to take on additional cost as well?

(321743)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by JerBear on Thu Jan 5 08:18:21 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Jan 1 10:45:51 2017.

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No, you're advocating for the preservation of bottlenecks, at least in the Woodhaven/Cross Bay corridor. The number of lanes grows and shrinks throughout the length of the corridor, which means that there are various bottlenecks. DOT recommended creating 3 travel lanes and no more than 3 travel lanes the entire length until Howard Beach, eliminating bottlenecks. You argued that they should maintain lanes wherever they exist, hence preserve the bottlenecks.

(321744)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by TerrApin Station on Thu Jan 5 08:19:02 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by JerBear on Thu Jan 5 08:18:21 2017.

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Pwn3d

(321745)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by JerBear on Thu Jan 5 08:23:11 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Jan 1 10:45:51 2017.

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And 'induced demand' was recognized throughout the second half of the 20th century. Build more lanes, more cars come. Later in the century they started recognizing the converse: eliminate lanes and cars magically disappear. Washington Square Park. Remember how the road advocates said that taking out the road through the park would cause traffic jams throughout the Village? Where did the cars go? West Side Highway. Embarcadero.
Give me an example of a new road that did not induce additional demand. Then give me an example where permanently eliminating a road (outside of a rural area where the nearest parallel alternative is 20 miles away) caused permanent congestion because the road no longer existed.

(321746)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 5 08:30:41 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by JerBear on Thu Jan 5 08:23:11 2017.

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Cars don't magically disappear. People make fewer trips or shorter trips. IOW, economic activity is lowered. Which is bad.

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by JerBear on Thu Jan 5 08:38:41 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 5 08:30:41 2017.

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Obviously cars don't disappear, because they aren't magic. The silly wording is intended to point out the silliness on the other side (motorists still go to the same place the same way).
But you can't assume that economic activity is lowered. People might still make the same number of purchases on fewer trips. Maybe they shop elsewhere.
Now the question becomes: how are areas doing economically, 20+ years after they take out that road? Washington Square Park. The West Side. The San Francisco waterfront. How are those places faring?

(321748)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jan 5 08:39:48 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by JerBear on Thu Jan 5 08:18:21 2017.

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at least in the Woodhaven/Cross Bay corridor.

The viaduct over the LIRR Montauk branch is the biggest bottleneck. It's limited to 3 lanes in each direction (between Metropolitan Ave and Union Tpk). NYCDOT's plan does not address this problem.

The solution is extremely simple and inexpensive. The service roads terminate at the LIRR ROW. Connect the service roads on either side of the LIRR ROW with a RR crossing. The Montauk branch is now used only by infrequent freight trains. Besides, there is a RR crossing less than 800 feet away at 88th St. It's not as if the freight trains are high balling it at this point.

(321749)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by fdtutf on Thu Jan 5 08:40:16 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jan 5 08:30:41 2017.

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(1) Automobile traffic is not perfectly correlated with economic activity, or even with trips, especially in a place like New York where people have transportation options other than the automobile.
(2) Decreasing economic activity is not universally bad. Some types of economic activity don't actually benefit society.


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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by fdtutf on Thu Jan 5 08:44:21 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BusMgr on Wed Jan 4 23:55:53 2017.

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But ultimately the same question remains: who should bear the cost of the harm caused by using one of those "improved" means of travel? Should it not be the person choosing to use an "improved" means of travel absorb the risk and liability that such means imposes on those who forgo such "improvements"? Why should the pedestrian--who has already ceded a good part of the highway upon which he or she could otherwise travel--have to take precautions made necessary only because of the choices other people have made as to their travel, and to take on additional cost as well?

*slow clap*


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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jan 5 08:51:54 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by JerBear on Thu Jan 5 08:38:41 2017.

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cars don't disappear,

Actually, they do. Nobody knows what happened to the 80K cars that used to use the West Side Highway. When the West Side Hwy fell down, they tried to find an traffic uptick on the adjoining streets. They could not find any.

(321752)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jan 5 09:29:55 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jan 5 08:51:54 2017.

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I'm sure lots of vehicles found non-Manhattan routings to their destination, though I'd be interested in what the tolling was on the tunnel to Brooklyn at the time and if those rates had any relationship. Also, the toll history on NY-NJ crossings plays a role.

If I'm going from Brooklyn to relevant areas of New Jersey, a very common trip combination, and assuming tolls were equal, I would almost always do the Verrazano to the Bayonne / Goethals. However, with a West Side Highway (in its glory), the Battery tunnel to the Holland or Lincoln may not seem so bad - as it would basically be all highway from the beginning of the Prospect Expressway at Church Ave until I'm in New Jersey.

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by JerBear on Thu Jan 5 09:40:36 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jan 5 08:39:48 2017.

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NYCDOT's plan does address this by not having a bottleneck. Approaching from the south, at Myrtle are 3 northbound travel lanes, then crossing the Parkway are 3 northbound travel lanes, then at 81st are 3 northbound travel lanes, then there is one additional lane just before Union to allow buses to filter into the travel lanes and cars in the travel lanes to filter out to turn right. Other than that little bit of mixing, there were 3 travel lanes, 3 travel lanes, 3 travel lanes...
Approaching from the north, at Furmanville are 3 southbound travel lanes, then at 66th Ave are 3 southbound travel lanes, then at 67th Ave are 3 southbound travel lanes, then at Yellowstone, Cooper, and Metropolitan are 3 southbound travel lanes, then at Rutledge there is the opportunity to pull off into the access road. But other than that little bit of mixing, there were 3 travel lanes, 3 travel lanes, 3 travel lanes...
Limited to 3 travel lanes in each direction for miles before. That's how NYCDOT addressed the problem.

(321754)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jan 5 09:43:41 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by JerBear on Thu Jan 5 09:40:36 2017.

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I always thought the main reason for the southbound bottleneck was the sufficiently-popular left turn to go east onto Union Tpke, essentially turning 3 through lanes to 2. Maybe not though.

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BusMgr on Thu Jan 5 10:07:25 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by fdtutf on Thu Jan 5 08:40:16 2017.

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While I agree with the second point, as expressed, as a true statement ("Decreasing economic activity is not universally bad."), I do, however, respectfully disagree with the statement to the extent that there is an implication that government has a right or duty to decide what economic activity is "bad" (other than those activities that are actually unlawful), or which do not "benefit" society (presumably with the government as arbiter of what is "beneficial"), and in doing so to effectively pick "winners" and "losers."

(321756)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Jan 5 10:11:00 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by JerBear on Thu Jan 5 08:23:11 2017.

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Give me an example of a new road that did not induce additional demand.

The Amstutz Expressway in Waukegan, IL.

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Jan 5 10:12:32 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BusMgr on Thu Jan 5 10:07:25 2017.

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I do, however, respectfully disagree with the statement to the extent that there is an implication that government has a right or duty to decide what economic activity is "bad" (other than those activities that are actually unlawful), or which do not "benefit" society (presumably with the government as arbiter of what is "beneficial"), and in doing so to effectively pick "winners" and "losers."

By heavily subsidizing toll-free expressways, the government has picked winners and losers.

(321759)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by fdtutf on Thu Jan 5 11:47:35 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BusMgr on Thu Jan 5 10:07:25 2017.

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I don't believe there is any such implication in my statement. I certainly did not intend one. You're reading too much into it.


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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by fdtutf on Thu Jan 5 11:47:49 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Jan 5 10:12:32 2017.

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PWN3D


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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by JerBear on Thu Jan 5 13:21:59 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Jan 5 10:11:00 2017.

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Thank you. I forgot to differentiate between actual useful roads and government-sponsored boondoggles. My favorite examples are the Maryland toll roads, the Inter-County Connector and what they've done to I-95. They're never going to make the money back. The Baltimore tunnel tolls are paying for these useless boondoggles, and congestion is as bad as ever. If you're going to construct a road and charge for it, don't keep a parallel free road.

(321764)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 5 14:19:49 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Jan 5 10:11:00 2017.

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It's not a new road but a new lane and not only did it not induce additional demand but it also reduced traffic congestion.

I am talking about the reconstruction of th southbound BQE overpass in the early 1980s just after the Hamilton Avenue exit. The former two lane overpass over the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel entrance was replaced with a three page road eliminating a serious bottleneck.

Prior to the construction the merge from three to two lanes caused chronic back-ups to past Atlantic Avenue for 18 hours a day. Traffic was bumper to bumper except between about midnight and 6 AM.

Since the reconstruction, traffic is bumper to bumper only during the evening rush hour. At all other times, it moves between 20 and 45 mph.

So not only was there no increased demand, but trips are about ten minutes quicker.

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BusMgr on Thu Jan 5 17:20:34 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by fdtutf on Thu Jan 5 11:47:35 2017.

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It could be my perception that others might such into it. Or it could be my paranoia at work!

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BusMgr on Thu Jan 5 17:24:17 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Thu Jan 5 10:12:32 2017.

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I was not thinking of that, but certainly it is the case. First, the government chose railroads as "winners." Then it chose automobiles as "winners." Now transit is at least somewhat favored as a "winner," though not completely. And in the end, government ends up subsidizing all of it, so that everyone who consumes transportation is a "winner," leaving as "losers" those people who live close enough to work and walk without using transportation, and not being a recipient of a transportation subsidy.

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