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(321780)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by fdtutf on Fri Jan 6 08:13:46 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BusMgr on Thu Jan 5 17:20:34 2017.

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Are you only paranoid when you're at work? ;-)


(321782)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by JerBear on Fri Jan 6 09:08:56 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jan 5 14:19:49 2017.

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Okay, so to sum up: adding a lane to a section of road does not necessarily induce demand. Bottlenecks are a big problem. BrooklynBus is not advocating adding lanes to Woodhaven/Cross Bay.
Now: NYCDOT'S solution is to remove bottlenecks by making sure that there are no more than 3 travel lanes throughout the corridor. No additional lanes that might (but not necessarily would) induce additional demand in certain areas and lead to bottlenecks.
So: what is wrong with eliminating bottlenecks? Is there a better way to eliminate bottlenecks than by maintaining the same number of lanes throughout the corridor? Is traffic going to flow better on a corridor with 3 travel lanes in each direction throughout the corridor, or a corridor where the number of lanes constantly changes thereby creating bottlenecks?

(321785)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by fdtutf on Fri Jan 6 13:42:24 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by JerBear on Fri Jan 6 09:08:56 2017.

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Silly you! There's never a better solution than simply to maximize the space available for automobiles. Any problems that may result are obviously the fault of pedestrians and cyclists.

(321789)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jan 6 16:44:48 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by JerBear on Fri Jan 6 09:08:56 2017.

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The fallacy in your logic is that maintaining three lanes of traffic in each direction is the same as reducing bottlenecks. Yes, maintains a constant number of lanes in a corridor does reduce bottlenecks when traffic volumes are consistent throughout the corridor. That however is not the case on Woodhaven. The volume fluctuates.

Second, you are ignoring the fact that three are presentlyat least four lanes in each direction so you are also reducing capacity by at least 25 percent, increasing traffic volumes on the remaining lanes. At some intersections, there are extra lanes for right turning movements. Those are being eliminated requiring those cars to queue up in the through traffic lanes instead of the turning lane, further increasing capacity. So with no reduction in traffic volumes, and there is no indication whatsoever that SBS will result in fewer cars, congestion can only increase.

Also, part of DOT's rationale is to separate through traffic from local traffic so that two lanes will be through traffic on the main road with local traffic on the service road. That only works for reducing congestion if two thirds of the traffic is through traffic and one third is local traffic, that is traffic that us only on the service road for a few blocks.

In reality, more like 80 percent of the traffic is through traffic which means that many through traffic cars will be forced to use the slower service road which will have cars stopped in order to park or slow down to make a right turn as well as stopped school, buses and delivery trucks. That will make the service road very slow for through traffic, but will be used by through traffic anyway when the main roadway will be barely moving. Other traffic will resort to use parallel residential streets increasing traffic on those streets.

So the constantly changing number of lanes which only exist in a few places (since DOT already striped off areas where the roadway widens) do not increase bottlenecks. They actually reduce them by providing extra lanes for right turns.

(321791)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by JerBear on Fri Jan 6 16:53:59 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jan 6 16:44:48 2017.

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Are there roads that don't have fluctuating volumes?

There are not 4 lanes the entire corridor, hence the existence of... Bottlenecks!

(321806)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by merrick1 on Sat Jan 7 15:53:23 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jan 3 12:09:50 2017.

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Not the first attempt, there have been changes to cars to increase pedestrian safety.

And I thought fold in mirrors were for parking on narrow streets :)

(321812)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Jan 7 19:40:36 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by JerBear on Fri Jan 6 09:08:56 2017.

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Some sections have higher demand than others. I don't know the particulars of Woodhaven blvd but I'll give you I87 as an example. The road goes from 4 lanes to 6 several times over its route. Each time it "shrinks" to 4 is when it has past a major divergence point. The most notable one is when NY-17 (future I-86) diverges at Harriman, the road goes from 6 lanes to 4.

I90 in Massachusetts goes from 6 lanes to 4 after I84 diverges near Worcester.

That said, it's more obvious to notice this when they *don't* enlarge due to demand - a notable I-87 divergence point is when it encounters I-84. The section between Harriman and I-84 tends to get fairly congested. Because of this congestion though, the rest of the thruway beyond is actually quite pleasant. So for *me* I'm ok with the inadequate road capacity, but the people who drive that every day are probably cursing the Thruway Authority with each breath while they are on it.

(321813)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by AlM on Sat Jan 7 19:57:01 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Jan 7 19:40:36 2017.

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Actually, since they put in the high speed toll booths at exit 16, the worst slowdowns on the southbound Thruway on a Sunday evening tend to be north of Newburgh. Like the big uphill at around mile 68.

(321815)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Jan 7 21:48:20 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Jan 7 19:40:36 2017.

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I don't know the particulars of Woodhaven blvd

AADT
Woodhaven Blv
Elliot Ave to Metropolitan Ave - 48,141
Metropolitan Ave to Union Tpk - 51,134
Union Tpk to Interborough Pkwy - 41,048
Interborough Pkwy to Myrtle Ave - 33,703
Myrtle Ave to Atlantic Ave - 49,745
Atlantic Ave to Liberty Ave - 38,254
Cross Bay Blv
Liberty Ave to S Conduit Blv - 58,606
S Conduit Blv to Nassau Exp - 55,979
Nassau Exp to Belt Pkwy - 54,212
Belt Pkwy to Toll Booths - 26,921

(321819)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Edwards! on Sun Jan 8 14:30:52 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by AlM on Sat Jan 7 19:57:01 2017.

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Oh yeah.

(321822)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Jan 8 16:26:35 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by JerBear on Fri Jan 6 16:53:59 2017.

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Yes all roads gave fluctuating volumes which is why DOT's logic that a solid three lanes throughout the corridor will reduce congestion is flawed.

There is a shift from four lanes to three at the two Long Island railroad crossings and when Woodhaven merges into Cross Bay southbound which cause bottlenecks. Yet there are others.

There also is one southbound at Rockaway Blvd where the left lane becomes a left turn lane when three lanes in the main roadway become two. But that one could be easily remedied by installing an exit to the service road at that point. When I suggested tha to DOT shortly before the SBS study began, they to,d me they couldn't do that because they would have to cut down a tree. Then they did their study and proposed to cut down hundreds of trees and now will install an exit lane there.

Traffic volumes also play a part in producing bottlenecks. Any place where traffic volumes increase causes traffic to slow down. So reducing the main road from three lanes to two lanes each way will greatly slow down traffic since it will only be possible to access the service road every quarter mile. Having three lanes that are contiguous would be much better for traffic even with exclusive lanes, but DOT eliminated that alternative.

So in short, the undue isn't only bottlenecks but capacity also, which us being greatly reduced. DOT is also sneaking in an exclusive lane from Queens Blvd to Elliot, allowing for only two lanes to turn left on Queens Blvd I stead of three, so they are introducing a new bottleneck there since more than two thirds of the traffic needs to tun left there.



(321823)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Jan 8 16:34:38 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Jan 7 21:48:20 2017.

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Somehow those numbers don't look right to me. First of all, the Interborough passes over Woodhaven. There is no interchange there and only side streets. Logic says that the volumes just north and south of the Interborough should be very similar. Yet you show a large difference.

Second, the roadway goes from four lanes to three in each direction at Liberty Avenue/Rockaway Blvd. it seems unusual that the volumes on the narrower portion could be one third higher than on the wider portion. If that were the case, the back ups at that point southbound would be huge and they are not.

I really think there is something very wrong with those numbers.

(321832)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Jan 8 20:54:54 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Jan 8 16:34:38 2017.

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I read the values from the shapefile. The shapefile does give reference to more detailed hourly information. This information also gives the exact location where the counts were made. Here are the links for each segment.

http://ftp.dot.ny.gov/tdv/YR2010/R11/05_Queens/05_1336.pdf
http://ftp.dot.ny.gov/tdv/YR2011/R11/05_Queens/05_1335.pdf
http://ftp.dot.ny.gov/tdv/YR2015/R11/05_Queens/05_1334_2015.pdf
http://ftp.dot.ny.gov/tdv/YR2010/R11/05_Queens/05_1333.pdf
http://ftp.dot.ny.gov/tdv/YR2011/R11/05_Queens/05_1332.pdf
http://ftp.dot.ny.gov/tdv/YR2009/R11/05_Queens/05_1331.pdf
http://ftp.dot.ny.gov/tdv/YR2010/R11/05_Queens/05_1166.pdf
http://ftp.dot.ny.gov/tdv/YR2011/R11/05_Queens/05_1165.pdf
http://ftp.dot.ny.gov/tdv/YR2013/R11/05_Queens/05_6110_VOL_11-2013.pdf
http://ftp.dot.ny.gov/tdv/YR2015/R11/05_Queens/05_1164_2015.pdf


In addition to these count records, there is also a speed record for the last segment Crossbay Blv from the Belt Pkwy to the toll booth

http://ftp.dot.ny.gov/tdv/YR2015/Other/Speed/R11/05_Queens/05_1164_2015_SpeedAverageReport.pdf

You will note that half the vehicles are exceeding the speed limit.


(321833)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Jan 8 21:04:09 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Jan 8 20:54:54 2017.

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From the toll to the Belt is a long stretch and includes a long section in Broad Channel that easily lends itself to speeding. Absolutely notorious section as a matter of fact and I'm sure that will distort the stats.

(321835)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Jan 8 21:41:57 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Jan 8 21:04:09 2017.

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I've ridden my bicycle on that stretch and have been scared to death by the speeding cars. That stretch can be difficult for a cyclist. There is no cover to break a headwind.

(321838)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Jan 8 23:20:16 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Jan 8 20:54:54 2017.

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From the toll to the Belt is a long stretch and includes a long section in Broad Channel that easily lends itself to speeding. Absolutely notorious section as a matter of fact and I'm sure that will distort the stats.

(321839)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Jan 8 23:23:13 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Jan 8 23:20:16 2017.

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Sorry for the repost.
That stretch is deadly in all honesty. I haven't biked through there in a while but I would avoid it if I could. Although riding around the bay is a nice trip.
Few cars drive 40 mph through there for sure.

(321840)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Jan 8 23:23:33 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Jan 8 23:20:16 2017.

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There are very few sections of road that DON'T lend themselves to speeding! I mean seriously, who goes under or at the speed limit???? You know you're fine going a few miles per hour over the speed limit, so why wouldn't you? Looking at how many people exceed the speed limit by 1 mph or more is ridiculous. If you want to take a serious look at speeding, I would look at how many people exceed the speed limit by 10 mph or more.

(321841)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Jan 8 23:24:13 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Catfish 44 on Sun Jan 8 23:23:13 2017.

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Deadly in what way?

(321842)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Jan 9 08:31:37 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Jan 8 23:23:33 2017.

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The area from the North Channel bridge south to the bird sanctuary is exceptional. Speeding at ten miles over the limit would be leisurely.

(321843)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Jan 9 08:36:43 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Jan 8 23:24:13 2017.

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Historically there have been a disproportionate amount of fatal accidents along that stretch. There is nothing inherently dangerous about the road itself but speeding and probably racing have claimed more lives than any other road I can think of locally. They have made some changes like eliminating a lane each way and installing a barrier along the west side of the southbound lanes and it seems to have helped. But speeding excessively is still common.

(321845)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by JerBear on Mon Jan 9 10:11:57 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Jan 8 16:26:35 2017.

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But you're treating traffic volumes as static, regardless of what NYCDOT does to the roads. If it was just so simple that to eliminate congestion, they would just build roads to accommodate the volume in the area, then they would do that. And two days later, after the locals realized how clear the roads were, they would decide to drive all the way up to the mall to get socks, instead of getting them at the corner store, because the trip is now so much faster. And then the volume of traffic would have changed. And so now, three days after completing construction, they would have to start again based on the new traffic volumes.
And you've talked about capacity before, but you have never shown that capacity is being lowered. The maximum traffic flow obtainable using all available lanes does not necessarily increase when you add extra lanes to portions of a roadway.
Did NYCDOT ever say that capacity would be diminished? I can't believe they would. So it's your supposition. But since I am not a traffic engineer, I have to rely on the work of traffic engineers to tell me what the capacity is going to be. Do we have any traffic engineers on here? Stephen Baumann, can you develop a model to predict road capacity with what we know about NYCDOT'S plans? Can anybody outside NYCDOT?

(321846)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by terRAPIN station on Mon Jan 9 10:22:20 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Jan 9 08:36:43 2017.

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Ok well as long as they are single car accidents, speeding just helps to get rid of the problem drivers. Would feel bad for any passengers though.

(321847)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by terRAPIN station on Mon Jan 9 10:22:47 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Jan 9 08:31:37 2017.

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Great, so changing the parameters of his summation wouldn't hurt his argument.

(321853)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jan 9 16:12:39 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Jan 8 20:54:54 2017.

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Still you have not explained how the volumes could vary so much on each side of the Interborough when there is no interchange with the Interborough at Woodhaven. The entrances and exits are blocks way from Woodhaven.

(321854)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Jan 9 16:14:23 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Jan 8 20:54:54 2017.

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The shapefile does give reference to more detailed hourly information. This information also gives the exact location where the counts were made.

The "Union Turnpike to Interboro" count was taken north of 81st Avenue in November 2015. The raw Tuesday through Thursday ADT was 42,563 and the seasonal adjustment factor was 1.01. The "Interboro to Myrtle Avenue" count was takan at 81st Avenue in August 2010. The raw Tuesday through Thursday average was 39,380 (7.5 percent lower) and the seasonal adjustment factor was 1.099 (implying traffic volumes are 8 percent lower in August than in November). The discrepancy is probably due to a combination of five years of growth and an overzealous seasonal adjustment for August.

(321855)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jan 9 16:33:33 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by JerBear on Mon Jan 9 10:11:57 2017.

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Let's stick to the topic. I never suggested building additional lanes to ease congestion unless you are eliminating a bottleneck like when a roadway goes from four lanes to three and back to four right after.

The maximum traffic flow depends on the number of lanes you have as any traffic engineer would tell you. Of course if you add lanes only along a portion of the roadway, you will not add capacity where the number of lanes remain unchanged, but traffic will move faster on the portion where there are more lanes.

Reducing the number of lanes reduces capacity and that is what DOT is proposing. As far as DOT not stating that capacity will be reduced, that is because DOT is only emphasizing the positive aspects of the plan. In fact, nowhere in any of their documentation or verbally did they ever state they were eliminating two lanes of general traffic. All they stated was three lanes for general traffic will be maintained in each direction, not stating that for virtually the entire Woodhaven Blvd, there are now four lanes in each direction. They also don't tell you that the three lanes will not be next to each other so you can easily switch from one to the other. You have to look at the map to see the three lanes are separated by a mall so that the service road can only be accessed every quarter mile. If you are stuck in traffic, you cannot magically switch to the service road if that is moving better any time you want.

Anyone who uses Woodhaven knows that traffic will be moving slower. It is not only me. In fact their preliminary data showing speeds declined during the AM peak hour by 38 percent between Furmanville and Metropolitan, from 19.5 mph to 12 mph after the exclusive bus lane was installed. They have since removed that page from the report it was originally in, the March 2015 CAC report #3 since I made a big deal of that. Just shows how sneaky they are.

(321856)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jan 9 16:38:42 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Jan 5 09:43:41 2017.

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That causes a small bottleneck on the overpass which is not nearly as bad as the one. before the overpass when it goes from four lanes to three. There used to be an alternative used by many during the rush hour by using 88 Street as an alternate, but DOT ended that by forcing traffic on the service road to make a right turn on Union Turnpike exacerbating the delays. That alternate used to save me and others five minutes.

When I explained this to DOT, they to,d me they were unaware of 88 Street being used as an alternate.

(321857)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jan 9 16:41:00 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jan 5 08:39:48 2017.

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Exactly. In fact I proposed that to DOT back in 2014. They told me they had also considered it but were afraid to present it because the communities might think they were crazy.

So they are quite aware they can do that. It's just that they have no desire to remove bottlenecks for cars. They want you to just not drive.

(321858)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jan 9 16:44:32 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by JerBear on Thu Jan 5 08:18:21 2017.

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I am certainly not. I am advocating reducing the bottlenecks. The number of lanes no longer grows and shrinks throughout the corridor. DOT striped off all areas where there were extra lanes several years ago. According to you that shoukd gave improved traffic. Rather, it has slowed it further.

The only places where Woodhaven lanes vary is at both LIRR crossings and one of those bottlenecks, the one near Metropolitan, can be easily remedied as Stephen Bauman described.

(321859)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jan 9 16:47:46 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Mon Jan 9 16:14:23 2017.

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Thank you. That is the danger when comparing volumes from different points in time.

I don't really see how that data can be used for any purpose since some of it was taken five years earlier.

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jan 9 16:57:14 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jan 2 22:03:55 2017.

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Exactly what percentage of the trips along Ocean Parkway would you say are made for recreational purposes? Over 50 percent?

I would guess it is more like five percent. Let's be realistic now. Ocean Parkway is a commuter route, not a recreational highway. Planning for it otherwise is ridiculous.

A lot has changed in 150 years. Calling Ocean Parkway a recreational route is like calling the Northern and Southern State and Belt Parkways recreational roads also. Moses envisioned them as recreational highways, but they haven't been those for quite sometime.

How would you consider the Brighton, West End, Culver and Sea Beach lines? As recreational lines to get people to ocean beaches and hotels, although that is the reason they were built? No, they are commuter subway lines just like Ocean Parkway is a commuter roadway.

(321861)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jan 9 16:59:47 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Jan 2 22:03:55 2017.

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No one is trying to save a few seconds for motorists. We are talking about not needlessly adding two or three minutes to ones trips. It may not sound like much, but causing similar delays elsewhere using other measures adds up.

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jan 9 17:00:58 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by R30A on Wed Jan 4 10:03:10 2017.

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You are in certain instances.

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jan 9 17:02:36 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by fdtutf on Wed Jan 4 14:32:27 2017.

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Highly likely on Woodhaven Boulevard when only 30 percent of the traffic is from bus passengers and 70 percent is from drivers and passengers in motor vehicles.

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by fdtutf on Mon Jan 9 17:07:41 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jan 9 17:02:36 2017.

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Based on your fake numbers, maybe. Based on any real numbers and analysis, no.


(321865)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jan 9 17:07:48 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by fdtutf on Wed Jan 4 14:33:33 2017.

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Don't be ridiculous. How do walk and don't walk signs and the better marking of crosswalks keep pedestrians out of the motorist's way? They make it easier to show pedestrians where they should cross and make it easier for cars to avoid them making streets safer. But you believe pedestrians should be allowed to cross anywhere they want anytime they feel like because it is their God given right. So crosswalks and better signage is just an inconvenience for pedestrians.

(321866)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jan 9 17:10:58 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Jan 3 22:44:06 2017.

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They wouldn't. They would only know that they are getting stuck mire because there are no enforcement agents to override signals.

We have heard much about better signal technology but where is it actually in use?

Do you know of any locations?

I only no of a few locations where buses are given priority.

(321868)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Jan 9 17:58:20 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by terRAPIN station on Mon Jan 9 10:22:20 2017.

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Many of them are single car accidents as I recall. What do you mean by getting rid of the problem drivers?

(321869)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by TerrApin Station on Mon Jan 9 18:53:35 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Jan 9 17:58:20 2017.

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Email me.

(321875)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Jan 9 23:39:40 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jan 9 17:10:58 2017.

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They wouldn't.
Exactly! Which makes your previous post incorrect.

They would only know that they are getting stuck mire because there are no enforcement agents to override signals.
TEAs generally SHOULDN'T be overriding signals!!!! They should be ENFORCING them!

We have heard much about better signal technology but where is it actually in use?
If you have heard so much about them then how come you don't know where they are in use??? You never thought to ask????

Do you know of any locations?
According to the internet, there are thousands of such intersections in NYC with upgraded signal controllers.

(321879)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by JerBear on Tue Jan 10 08:22:15 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jan 9 16:44:32 2017.

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"DOT striped off all areas where there were extra lanes several years ago."
Ummm... So you're saying that there are only 3 lanes through the entire corridor right now? Am I hallucinating?
And what Stephen Baumann is suggesting is not easy. After all of train crashes in the area recently because of vehicles on the tracks, you think approval of a new crossing would be easy?

(321880)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by JerBear on Tue Jan 10 08:36:24 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jan 9 16:33:33 2017.

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We are exactly on topic, as far as what I believe the current topic to be since New Flyer's comment on December 27th at 11:44. The topic is that you believe, without any proof, that traffic will move slower after DOT changes the lane configurations. They are going to create three travel lanes throughout the corridor. You say this will slow traffic down. You have not provided any proof. You offer anecdotes. You offer logical-sounding arguments. The problem with logic is that it works with complicated but not with complex problems.
The reason traffic engineers have complex computer models is because you can't just reason out an answer and predict how the road will function unless you're talking about a 2-lane road in Iowa with few intersections. Even when they have models, human behavior makes it even more complex. People react and change to changed circumstances.
Induced demand has been shown to exist, and removing roads has shown that traffic does sometimes seem to magically disappear. So it is possible that DOT's plans will make traffic flow better. I trust them because they have engineers and models. I understand the argument you're trying to make, but it isn't robust enough.

(321881)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by JerBear on Tue Jan 10 08:40:47 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jan 9 16:41:00 2017.

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Who in DOT? I know I meet different people everytime I go to a DOT meeting. Some people I see again and again, like the guy in the glasses. But the woman doing the Woodhaven project is different from the guy that did the Q44 project.
Because it's such a large organization, what are the odds that you're telling someone who actually has no relation to the thing you're telling them, and wouldn't know whom to relay it to even if they did think it was important?

(321884)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jan 10 10:11:31 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by JerBear on Tue Jan 10 08:36:24 2017.

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The problem with logic is that it works with complicated but not with complex problems.
The reason traffic engineers have complex computer models is because you can't just reason out an answer and predict how the road will function unless you're talking about a 2-lane road in Iowa with few intersections.


NYCDOT uses a proprietary simulation model (Aimsum). Its assumptions are not known. Only the results, chosen by NYCDOT, are known. There is very little the public can determine, given these conditions. Occasionally, there are glimpses that the simulation isn't quite accurate.

One such instance concerns the time savings to be gained by the Woodhaven Blv SBS project, given in a May 2016 presentation. It compares before/after running times between Jamaica and Metropolitan Aves. The before/after comparison is 12.9 vs. 7.8 minutes.

It would appear that nobody bothered checking the Q52/Q53 schedule to see how accurate the simulation is at predicting the then current situation. Such a check would have revealed that the then current running time (May 2016) between these two stops to be 6.3 minutes. No observer should have much faith in the projected time savings from the simulation, until any simulation more accurately predicts the current state.

(321885)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue Jan 10 10:20:28 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jan 9 16:59:47 2017.

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We are talking about not needlessly adding two or three minutes to ones trips.

Boo hoo. Getting hit by a car can take a lot more than a few minutes off a pedestrian or cyclist's life.

(321886)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by fdtutf on Tue Jan 10 10:23:52 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jan 9 17:07:48 2017.

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Don't be ridiculous. How do walk and don't walk signs and the better marking of crosswalks keep pedestrians out of the motorist's way? They make it easier to show pedestrians where they should cross and make it easier for cars to avoid them making streets safer.

Your comment assumes a state in which the entire street space (curb line to curb line) is allocated to automobiles. I don't make that assumption. The streets belong to all users, and effectively cordoning off a very small portion of them and telling pedestrians that these are the pieces they get to use helps motorists, not pedestrians.

Note, too, that motorists get to use the portions "allocated" to pedestrians, making conflicts inevitable.

(321887)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 11:10:55 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by fdtutf on Tue Jan 10 10:23:52 2017.

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My comment makes no such assumption.

Your comment, however, criticizes the city for allocating lanes in which you are permitted to drive your automobile. That makes perfect sense.

According to you the city is wrong by restricting pedestrians to sidewalks and crosswalks. You believe they should be able to walk right in the traffic lanes even though there are perfectly usable sidewalks. That is ridiculous.

However, I see no problem with pedestrians walking in the street if sidewalks are covered with snow or ice and the streets are clear, traffic is light. And the pedestrians are careful. However, those occasions are the exception, not the rule.

(321888)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 11:12:49 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Jan 10 10:11:31 2017.

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Correct.

(321889)

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Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter.

Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jan 10 11:19:45 2017, in response to Re: Pedestrians aren't the only ones who matter., posted by JerBear on Tue Jan 10 08:36:24 2017.

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There are hundreds who believe traffic will move slower and those are the ones who use Woodhaven every day.

Myself and Stephen Bauman have shown you data from the existing bus lanes that show it has slowed traffic significantly in the peak direction during the peak hour which us most important. You just choose to ignore that.

To know how good a model is, we need to know the assumptions. We don't. If you input poor data, you will get poor results. You can't have a five year spread in the data you input for the results to be at all accurate.

And traffic doesn't magically disappear. We might not know where it goes because it can be dispersed over great distances causing negative impacts we are not aware of. Or else, certain trips are not made anymore having negative effects on the economy, or people may just visit their relatives less often because it just becomes too much of a hassle.

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