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Re: Future expansion wish list? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 26 22:10:28 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Sat Dec 26 22:07:00 2009. It's already the largest in the world. Consider the cost of sustaining it first before thinking about expansion. |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Dec 26 22:12:32 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by LuchAAA on Sat Dec 26 00:28:57 2009. Because it's not being handled by the only department in TA that is on top of things: Labor Relations.What are they going to do - give the project three days in the street?! |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Dec 26 22:13:59 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Dec 26 00:19:45 2009. The modified track plan with the elimination of the three tracks north of the turn kinda blows the crap out of any flexibility to do something like that. :(That shouldn't be a problem. However, it won't work for a different reason. I agree with the cutback as it does save money, and all that it does is to eliminate a short-turn terminal at 72 St. Double crossovers at both ends of 72 St were, last that I heard, retained. However, the major problem with opening part of the 2 Av Line is going to be the completion dates. First of all, the thing's running behind, like everything else that MTA Capital Construction touches. Second, you're probably going to have some northern segments done before the southern ones, which makes a scaled-back extension sooner impossible. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Dec 26 22:19:16 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Dec 26 22:13:59 2009. Thanks! Since the 2nd avenue won't be coming anywhere near here, much less the Bronx, wasn't paying all that much attention to it. |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Dec 26 22:38:11 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Dec 26 15:34:50 2009. Lower density?That's why I preferred by deep bored solution since it can aim for the slighly denser locations like Kew Gardens Hills, Pomonok, Fresh Meadows, Oakland Gardens, and Glen Oaks, and with limited station stops, it can avoid the cost of building stations, angering NIMBYs, and keep average speeds high. LIE light rail As a cheaper compromise, it probably holds some promise, but obviously, I prefer my idea. Coincidentally, much of that stretch of the LIE hasn't been reconstructed yet, so if we work now with NYSDOT, it may be feasible to squeeze the line into any potential reconstruction of that stretch. Sadly, North Shore Towers will remain an awful figure of earlier planning to dump several large high-rise towers in an area sans transit... |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Dec 26 22:53:52 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Dec 26 12:00:03 2009. But future gentrification, as dirty a word as that is to some, may yet revitalize the Rockaways. Really.Personally, I'm pro-gentrification, so I'm inclined not to see that as a dirty world. Regardless, I don't see the Rockaways as anything but small density housing unless the railway service to the area improves, but then, maybe I'm chasing a magical concept of "short commutes for all" regardless of the distance. Hell, my nephew lives in Far Rockaway and notes that a number of his relatives take the commuter van services to Jamaica to ride the E train to Midtown in lieu of the A... And the trackage. Take my example of the WOOD-SHEA run on LIRR. I'll admit, I'm shocked that isn't 80 mph MAS. Mind you, I'm shocked that PATH isn't 80 mph MAS too. Perhaps speedier, but maybe not faster or more convenient. Maybe it's me, but after being accustomed to the LIRR to Manhattan, I nearly found myself banging my head against a wall while my E train was glacially approaching Roosevelt Avenue.* Somehow, 4 tph is easier to endure at higher speeds than 10 tph at a glacial pace... *To think that this same stretch was fast to a young, quiet child in the 1980s... |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Dec 26 23:27:34 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Dec 26 16:43:18 2009. I'm talking about the one and only OB branch.That's the green one on the map? It doesn't look straight to me....  If anything, you're talking about the West Hempstead line. Or the Far Rockaway Branch. But also Oyster Bay. And you're right, the answer currently is no, LIRR does not do what those people want. Why? Because the line is painfully slow for no reason at all, so everyone who can instead drives to either Syosset or Manhasset. Electrify it and you'll see ridership numbers jump. Isn't that just spending a lot of money to rob Peter to pay Paul, where Peter is the Port Branches and Paul is the OYster Bay Branch? And what was this different purpose and different alignment when it was built? Know your LIRR history. And you mention the answer in your post, in paragraph 3, so I assume that you do. Brooklyn, however, is a destination. Sure, it's a destination. But most LIRR passengers change to the subway there anyway. So I view a lot of this as really moot. That's why I'm saying discounting things that aren't currently on the table is a BIG mistake and will only serve to screw us in the future. The way to cure such ills is through getting LI towns to appreciate what development can do for them. It is a BIG mistake now to so underutilize valuable rail infrastructure by running a paltry few underloaded trains on it. Wang owns the Coliseum so it's not like he's just some hopeful with no other ties to the area. If there's any hope of development in that area, it's through him. We shall see about Lighthouse. He and his partners were refused by Plainview already, so they had no choice but to go as of right. |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Dec 26 23:28:24 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Dec 26 16:53:25 2009. So now instead of just having a RR ticket, those commuters must now also have a metrocard?It's not unheard of, you know, for an LIRR rider to also use a monthly metrocard. I am one such rider, and a good chunk of LIRR's monthly pass holders are too. So let's dismiss that outrage. Let's do the math. A Monthly ticket is $200 from Mineola to FBA. Mineola to Jamaica is $150 plus $89 for a monthly metrocard. All that this shows is that LIRR riders are much more heavily subsidized per rider than NYCT riders, which is part of the reason why LIRR bleeds money. That's not cheaper. You have conveniently ignored the net increase in welfare measured by wage-hours that a NYCT takeover would cause. Multiply the ridership by a wage value (say, mean wage) by the time savings. Do this for both LIRR operations at present and NYCT. Then subtract and take the absolute value. Since all of the terms are positive reals, the second term is a constant, and the first and third terms are going to be much larger for the NYCT evaluation, the net increase in welfare is huge. This is simply a knockdown argument. Atlantic line should never EVER be taken from the RR, period. That's not an argument; it's mere sentiment. I like the quaint FBA operation too, but the needs of millions of riders trumps a railfan's sense of nostalgia. |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Dec 26 23:28:35 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Dec 26 21:22:14 2009. I discussed the idea of electrifying the Oyster Bay Branch with 25kV catenary primarily to kill off the entire diesel network.As you know, I'm intrigued by the prospect because of the substation savings and the chance to do some cross-region running. But practically, alas, I don't see it happening. As a matter of policy, it would be nice to see some trains from the East* stop there, but as you pointed out, since choice riders are unwilling to ride a shuttle bus, most LI employment destinations are useless for commuting even for those near the railway. The sad part is that Long Island's town and village governments are unwilling to develop anything resembling a TOD whether for residential and commercial real estate out of the desire to pander to local residents who fear "more crowding" and turning into the county on one's west border**. It's sad that there's no equivalent of Metropark, Stamford, or White Plains on Long Island. I must unfortunately concur. By the way, the reality in Nassau County is that their population was higher in 1970 than it is now. I see the overdevelopment fear as particularly puzzling because these are the same people who nag incessantly about their high property taxes but who keep voting to spend huge amounts of money and who will accept communism as their creed before they accept evil development. They can't have it both ways.... At some point, there will be a chink in their armor, and maybe they will learn. Either that, or they will decay, especially if the property tax deduction is modified. those that do can buy a car regardless of their driving skills. Purely anecdotal, but I think that LI drivers are the worst in this country. |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sat Dec 26 23:31:00 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Dec 26 21:35:51 2009. Sorry if I mislead by not making scope clear, but my comment was directed at non-relay terminals, specifically, the stub-ends (Main St), or the stupid-switched (Jamaica Center).Anyhow, as to your comments - how much more can be squeezed out of the Queens Railway if we improve the terminal design? The trackage itself is good for 30-40 tph based on signal clearing time. Passenger fumigation can be dealt with a number of ways, as you recognize, i.e., "Isn't the easiest way around this is for crews to have both crews on the train when the run ends on the Northbound platform in lieu of having the T/O walk from one end to another?" It's labor-intensive, but several orders of magnitude cheaper than drilling a new line. Another problem is that since we have merges, those have to be scheduled carefully. Here, Jamaica Center comes up as a rate-limiting step and then WTC as the next rate-limiting step. I don't intend to solve the equations myself now, but to make it simple, one would aim for a 1:1 ratio at the merge points, given the service requirements. But then WTC can't handle more than, I would estimate, 16-24 tph, even if you cheat at the north end by using 179 St to get around the impractical switch placement between Sutphin Blvd and Jamaica Center. So that would put practical express track capacity at 32 tph, conservatively. Operationally, it would also require that the merges occur on time, and by that I don't mean what passes for 'on time' in MTA's performance measures. For similar reasons, peg the local track the same, which gives 64 peak tph on two tracks. With more efficient terminals, this could theoretically be pushed up to near 80 tph on two tracks, or more than a train per minute, which is more than enough to meet needs for many many years to come. |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Dec 26 23:47:53 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Dec 25 22:47:24 2009. Sorry dude...it's NOT the "end of story"..Plainly speaking..you sound as if you are having a tantrum..or a bully threatening a school yard not to think or act a certain way or else.. As a matter of fact..I don't like the tone of your post..one bit. Fact is,FELLA..that CHANGE IS COMING TO THE LIRR whether YOU LIKE IT OR NOT. The Atlantic Branch is going to become what you hate most after the ESA opens...a shuttle service.. Not to long after that,FELLA..it's going BACK TO THE NYCT[BMT]WHERE IT BELONGS.... LOL! |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Dec 27 00:05:38 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Dec 26 23:28:35 2009. But practically, alas, I don't see it happening.That's what makes New York depressing from a railfan and planning perspective. You'll look at networks in other countries and wonder why can't we have a proper electrifcation system or a higher frequency commuter railway service that allows one to bypass the local and slow nature of a metro system. I suspect my biases as a far eastern Queens resident is creating a bias of "easy, comfortable thirty minute commutes for all". By the way, the reality in Nassau County is that their population was higher in 1970 than it is now. For fun, I'd want to see the age brackets and see if LI has turned into an island of middle aged adults... I've jokingly said that LI residents want expensive homes to sell, but that the expensive real estate is why their kids live in the basement at the age of 25 or leave to go to low cost of living areas of the country that are far away. To a certain extent, I'd argue that the fear of multiple unit dwellings is for fear that minorities and poorer whites will move into an area and ruin it, while for others, the fear that MDUs will bring more traffic and resource/service utilization into an area that they feel can't cope with extra strain. Then I think there's a strain of thought that feels that MDUs will basically turn Nassau into Queens, and that if one wants apartments, they should go to Queens to find them. Plus, the perverse property tax situation creates a meme among the ignorant that apartment dwellers don't pay taxes, and thus, they're leeches upon the system. It's still silly that it's nearly impossible to build a few apartment buildings within walking distance of a train station on Long Island. As somebody who may have to liquidate an overpriced home, I'd kill to sell at what my parents purchased the home for in 2006, but I may consider renting out the excess space to pay off the property tax. I'd prefer to stay on the Island, but there are so few townhouses, and for varying reasons, I am not interested in a garden apartment co-op in Queens. It's silly to see so many senior developments pop up, but nothing for somebody in their late twenties and thirties with no kids. Purely anecdotal, but I think that LI drivers are the worst in this country. While LI drivers reaffirm my roadgeek desire for drivers with poor skills to use public transit, I think driving in NYC is far worse. In contrast, Jersey isn't too bad, especially if you're not on NJ 17 in Paramus. |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 27 00:20:36 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Dec 26 17:10:35 2009. That completely misses Lake Success, a giant source of reverse commuters that currently have HORRIBLE mass transit accessYou can't be all things to all people. At all events, a NYC operation should serve a major trip generator in Queens - Queensborough Community College - instead of running across the wilds of Creedmoor Mental Hospital in order to get to Lake Success. We have much evidence that college students use transit for their trips; not much evidence that transit will garner much share of the Lake Success trips. Also, the civic groups in Lake Success will scream bloody murder if you bring them the subway. And I was suggesting it as operating via LIE to Queens College, then down to St Johns, then over to Lake Success. As I said, I think that hitting Queensborough Community College is vital, as NYCT planning documents clearly show, particularly since CUNY is expanding the community colleges to make up for our secondary school system's evident idiocy in most places. It would operate elevated via the LIE I don't see an el as being feasible. The NIMBYs will eat that alive. and at grade along the LIMP ROW Isn't that parkland near very expensive homes? The NIMBYs will not only eat that alive - they will regurgitate it and feast on the cud many times over. As for branching, I was proposing this as a branch off a new super express operating along the LIRR main line which would be tied into SAS I don't think that people would appreciate being shunted that far east, especially with the long or maybe even outside fare control transfers (like Lexington Av-63 St). It also kicks the problem into one of how to put two more tracks on the Main Line ROW, especially Winfield and west of there. hey...it's a wish list! Indeed.... |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 27 00:30:52 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Dec 26 17:02:02 2009. The facts are simple, the RR needs that line for future capacity (HPA/LIC are not places people want to go, Brooklyn is). Replacing it with a subway service will cost these commuters MORE money, and it will NOT save them any time. The only people who are saved time are those living between Jamaica and FBA. People coming from/going to points east of Jamaica still have to wait for the LIRR, plus now they're losing their one seat ride. Sounds like a total downgrade of service to me. The ONLY people who benefit are those living and working west of Jamaica.I've responded to these points elsewhere, but again, you're only considering the service change from the standpoint of the relatively small number of LIRR riders to/from FBA, most of whom change for the subway anyway. And you also ignore completely the benefits to many more riders that a rapid transit system brings. LIRR can't do rapid transit, so let someone who can take over, and let LIRR do what it was built for, i.e., commuter rail. |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 27 00:42:41 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Dec 26 22:38:11 2009. That's why I preferred by deep bored solutionI understand your motivation, but I think that you underestimate the difficulty of obtaining funding for that kind of tunneling. I find much to like, as usual, in your proposal, but I find it prohibitively costly. As a cheaper compromise, it probably holds some promise, but obviously, I prefer my idea. Coincidentally, much of that stretch of the LIE hasn't been reconstructed yet, so if we work now with NYSDOT, it may be feasible to squeeze the line into any potential reconstruction of that stretch. Although we differ in ranking preferences (maybe), I think that we have to opt for a practical something rather than something that's too expensive to build and so it won't be. I concede at the outset that this doesn't give these riders the largest possible time savings, but it does a lot, I think, while providing some bang for the buck, enough so that it's feasible. Sadly, North Shore Towers will remain an awful figure of earlier planning to dump several large high-rise towers in an area sans transit... I think that was by design. :( Someone I know may be able to shed some light on it. I'll report back if he remembers anything all these years later. Huge amount of units too. |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 27 00:59:14 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Dec 26 22:53:52 2009. Personally, I'm pro-gentrification, so I'm inclined not to see that as a dirty world.Same here. And you notice all of those smart people in gentrifying areas riding the good wave? Finally, they get some of the advantages of living in cosmopolitan NYC. Many studies in our area actually seem to confirm this: that people in gentrifying areas are less likely to leave. Regardless, I don't see the Rockaways as anything but small density housing That's changing, slowly. I mean we're seeing fairly dense condo developments going up there. Mind you, the two last big ones are going up even during the recession basically with the tax-free stimulus bonds, so the government definitely helped out. Hell, my nephew lives in Far Rockaway and notes that a number of his relatives take the commuter van services to Jamaica to ride the E train to Midtown in lieu of the A... C'mon! Even 'scraping the wall', the A is about 73 minutes to Midtown! Must be something in your genetics that craves the feeling of speed. :) Maybe it's me, but after being accustomed to the LIRR to Manhattan, I nearly found myself banging my head against a wall while my E train was glacially approaching Roosevelt Avenue. I hate these constant track chip-outs. It's the most annoying thing. And I figure since it isn't even that fast, why not go with the old ballast instead of the concrete that has to be replaced regularly? |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Dec 27 01:09:43 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 27 00:42:41 2009. I understand your motivation, but I think that you underestimate the difficulty of obtaining funding for that kind of tunneling. I find much to like, as usual, in your proposal, but I find it prohibitively costly.I'm a bit more dirigiste than you, so I'm inclined to desire such projects, but after sobering up, one will realize that the funding isn't there for such grand projects, and I'm tempted to believe that our friends at MTA:CC aren't inclined to such radical designs on a new trunk line. I concede at the outset that this doesn't give these riders the largest possible time savings, but it does a lot, I think, while providing some bang for the buck, enough so that it's feasible. There's a point where one can argue and say that since we're not dealing with choice riders, why bother with an expensive capital project that doesn't bring on huge chunks of new, choice riders that once used the express bus, especially if it still delivers a two seat ride. Is a three seat ride (bus to light rail to subway and potentially another line) that compelling, especially in light of the fact that there probably won't be any park and ride facilities? BTW, out of sheer curiosity and real estate inflation of a property that I have inheritance rights for, I'd wonder if an extension off your LIE light rail line to Queens Village would be of any worth... And as one last side note, as for Queens College, as a former student there, I'd be more apt to use public transport to get there is the Q44 was a light rail (read: streetcar) line. It would certain beat sitting on traffic or snaking my way down local roads... I think that was by design. :( A lot of these scattered, edge high rise developments bother me. When you look at them on a map, it screams "transit access now", but it's hard to justify building anything through the lower density corridors to get to it. Mind given the context that they were built under, it certainly makes sense as to why the builders avoided the subway. |
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Posted by The I MAN on Sun Dec 27 01:19:16 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Dec 26 16:34:32 2009. In Stan Fiscler's book about the building of the Subway in the early 1900's, there is a photo taken at Bridge/Jay Streets of the Myrtle Ave and Lexington Ave Els on March 5, 1944, the last day of service over the Brooklyn Bridge. In another oddity, the last outbound train passed through the Bridge Street Station at around noon, not at night. The picture was taken right after the train left the station as work crews were busy severing track connections and installing bumping blocks. Mayor Hylan got his wish. The IND subway had stripped ridership so bad over the bridge that only a thousand or so daily riders used the trains by 1944 sealing their fate. Trolleys, using the former right of way that the El cars used, lasted another six years on the Brooklyn Bridge. |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 27 01:19:21 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Dec 27 00:05:38 2009. You'll look at networks in other countries and wonder why can't we have a proper electrifcation systemI look at the electrical failures culminating in the recent trouble and I ask why can't we even maintain the sorry arcane 25 Hz stuff that we've got. For fun, I'd want to see the age brackets and see if LI has turned into an island of middle aged adults... Well the new census is coming.... I've jokingly said that LI residents want expensive homes to sell, but that the expensive real estate is why their kids live in the basement at the age of 25 or leave to go to low cost of living areas of the country that are far away. I don't think that monetary policy can keep interest rates this low for long, but who knows. If interest rates go up, since homes are bought mostly on credit and a lot of it, expect a deflation there. No doubt monetary policy did contribute to the housing bubble in many places, but in our region, there's also just plain scarcity to deal with, brought on mainly by some quite stupid laws. To a certain extent, I'd argue that the fear of multiple unit dwellings is for fear that minorities and poorer whites will move into an area and ruin it In the most affluent communities, there's nothing to fear. The less affluent are simply priced out. And while LI has some lovely areas, there are also some just plain scary ones too, even without massive development. Plus, the perverse property tax situation creates a meme among the ignorant that apartment dwellers don't pay taxes, and thus, they're leeches upon the system. It's still silly that it's nearly impossible to build a few apartment buildings within walking distance of a train station on Long Island. I just don't get it. As somebody who may have to liquidate an overpriced home, I'd kill to sell at what my parents purchased the home for in 2006, but I may consider renting out the excess space to pay off the property tax. You might well have to. I suspect that we won't be approaching those old values on LI for quite some time in many market segments. And especially watch those future interest rate predictions. for varying reasons, I am not interested in a garden apartment co-op in Queens. Buy a condo in Queens. There are some pretty good deals around, or at least there were as of a few months ago. One less worry about liquidating the asset if you need to, and the value has tended to keep rather better in most buildings. While LI drivers reaffirm my roadgeek desire for drivers with poor skills to use public transit, I think driving in NYC is far worse. Don't get me wrong - we have awful drivers in NYC too. But I find that what's really bad about LI is that not only are they bad but they're aggressive AND bad with astonishing frequency. I love driving out in the boonies though, I must confess that. I hate driving anywhere else! |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Dec 27 07:57:46 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 27 01:19:21 2009. I look at the electrical failures culminating in the recent trouble and I ask why can't we even maintain the sorry arcane 25 Hz stuff that we've gotDefine "arcane". 25 Hertz wouldn't be "arcane" compared to Germany's 16⅔ Hertz. The infrastructure is old; takes money and discipline to upgrade and maintain. |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Dec 27 08:00:07 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Dec 27 00:05:38 2009. You'll look at networks in other countries and wonder why can't we have a proper electrifcation system or a higher frequency commuter railway service that allows one to bypass the local and slow nature of a metro systemWhat are you talking about . . . ? What's a "proper electrification system" versus improper? What frequency are you referring to, and what is "local and slow" more than riding a bus or driving in local traffic? |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 27 13:10:54 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Dec 27 01:09:43 2009. Is a three seat ride (bus to light rail to subway and potentially another line) that compelling, especially in light of the fact that there probably won't be any park and ride facilities?I think that it depends on ease of transfer and transfer time. In that region as it is, bus-bus-subway rides are somewhat common. P&R adds a lot of cost, and within NYC, maybe for not much benefit. Given the alignment along the LIE, a lot of prospective P&R people are probably just people from Nassau and Suffolk Counties who decide that LIRR is too expensive and infrequent, which isn't exactly my target demographic. BTW, out of sheer curiosity and real estate inflation of a property that I have inheritance rights for, I'd wonder if an extension off your LIE light rail line to Queens Village would be of any worth... With the Jamaica hub developing, Queens Village should be hot or getting there. Unfortunately, it's not, not even the 'village green' by the train station. No doubt the horrible LIRR scheduling (there is no AM peak train for 42 minutes during the height of the morning rush, and usually longer, since LIRR schedules are heavily padded to ensure that the train that's late to Queens Village is "MTA on time" at FBA) and ridership is awful anyway given the bus service at street level that's a lot cheaper and more frequent, even if, well, a bus. As for the spur, it gets complicated when you think about sending it down Springfield Blvd. The NIMBY shrieking will be unbearable. However, at some point, I would like to see NYCT Hillside Av Branch service extended via LIRR Main Line ROW to Springfield Blvd; with a station underneath 187 Pl-188 St between Hillside and Jamaica Avs, then surfacing to hit Lewis Blvd and Springfield Blvd. Maybe someday Belmont Park if something productive were done there. I'd be more apt to use public transport to get there is the Q44 was a light rail (read: streetcar) line. Given the ridership and the hesitation to use articulated buses over the Bronx Whitestone bridge, that is a solution. Junction station at Queensboro Hill between the two light rail lines Flushing-Jamaica/Elmhurst-Oakland Gardens. A lot of these scattered, edge high rise developments bother me. Many were built around the automobobile (only). They love their express bus, though, especially those empty 45' MCI cruisers. What a waste.... |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Dec 27 13:21:21 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Dec 26 23:27:34 2009. You're really basing everything off a not to scale transit map? Look at google maps and see the real story. The furthest point north on the line is Mill Neck, Oyster Bay is just barely south east of that. Far less out of the way than Smithtown on the PJ line."Isn't that just spending a lot of money to rob Peter to pay Paul, where Peter is the Port Branches and Paul is the OYster Bay Branch?" -How is this anything like that? The only thing they'd be getting "robbed" of is ridership, and those people live on the OB line anyway. |
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Posted by Easy on Sun Dec 27 13:35:14 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Dec 26 13:15:41 2009. They aren't really zero emission because they get most of their electricity from fossil fuel burning power plants. Pollution from power plants is controlled, but they emit plenty of greenhouse gases if you believe in that sort of thing. |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Dec 27 13:36:45 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Dec 26 23:27:34 2009. Forgot to finish commenting:You still haven't answered what that original alignment/purpose was. It wasn't for OB to Hempstead service, because looking at the old schedules, the vast majority of trains are Jamaica bound. Brooklyn is plenty of a destination, especially with Metrotech, the schools, etc. The line probably has great reverse peak potential too once the LIRR gets more trains running against the grain on the main. Commuting will be more expensive if the line is given to the subways. "It is a BIG mistake now to so underutilize valuable rail infrastructure by running a paltry few underloaded trains on it." -You're talking as if this is the lower montauk, which it is light years from |
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Posted by Easy on Sun Dec 27 13:38:26 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Dec 26 14:47:23 2009. C'mon, you guys all knew it was a matter of time before I posted something about Puerto Rico.lol |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sun Dec 27 13:57:24 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Dec 26 14:47:23 2009. Subchat needs a like button. I know nothing about Puerto Rico, but this sounds cool. |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sun Dec 27 14:20:19 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sat Dec 26 17:13:04 2009. There are real capacity bottlenecks. Once you remove/circumvent them (and they're quite easy to spot -- look for the horrible merges), parts of existing subway and LIRR lines have absolutely massive capacity for expansion. Looking at Manhattan below 59th St, there isn't that much extra capacity needed to take a lot of extra outer branches.And commuter rail is really a bit of an oddball mode: it suits Suffolk County (and parts of Nassau County), but it begins to fail when you get the density of parts of Nassau County or the genuine business centers of some importance in Connecticut. If you try to make commuter rail serve either of these purposes, it begins to lose huge amounts of money. |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sun Dec 27 14:24:16 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 26 17:46:09 2009. So you'd ride a subway over 50 miles?London's Central Line is about that length, so it's doable. But you know that the urban/suburban (or next city) divide is not 50 miles out in any direction. NJ Transit's NEC serves cities rather than suburbs. And connecting cities to one-another isn't commuter rail. |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 27 15:05:14 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Dec 27 13:21:21 2009. You're really basing everything off a not to scale transit map?Are we really having this argument? You're telling me that the Oyster Bay Branch is a direct alignment between New York and the area that it serves? If you're having trouble, grab a ruler and starting drawing lines... The only thing they'd be getting "robbed" of is ridership, and those people live on the OB line anyway. It costs money to electrify, a lot of it, and these trips to get to the RR station are by automobile anyway. So is it a good idea to spend tens or hundreds of millions of dollars so that a few hundred or maybe a thousand people have slightly shorter drives? We will be taking the elevator to the lunar colony before that wasteful spending pays off. |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 27 15:18:15 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Dec 27 13:36:45 2009. You still haven't answered what that original alignment/purpose was.It sure wasn't built as the quickest way between New York and Oyster Bay, or even Jamaica and Oyster Bay. Brooklyn is plenty of a destination, especially with Metrotech, the schools, etc. I agree. The problem is that it is a destination that LIRR utterly fails at properly serving. LIRR is not a rapid transit operation. Commuting will be more expensive if the line is given to the subways. What is this, new math? The trains are as empty as they are because the fare is too high, even with the handsome subsidy. Almost all LIRR FBA commuters have metrocards, anyway, since they change to the subway. The only difference to them would be their changing to the subway at Jamaica, a slightly longer ride, but much more transfer options. For all other NYCT riders, it's a tremendous opportunity to link two transit hubs, huge reductions in commuting time, and thus massive savings. You're just one of these LIRR one-seat ride advocates. The trouble is, LIRR ridership is small compared to NYCT's, LIRR's subsidy per passenger massive compared to NYCT's, and most of these LIRR riders change for the subway anyway. |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Dec 27 16:01:44 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 27 13:10:54 2009. With the Jamaica hub developing, Queens Village should be hot or getting there.Maybe it's me, but I still see Queens Village future as a sleepy, quiet safe neighbourhood with very little changing unless the city ever decides to re-zone the industrial areas immediately south of the LIRR ROW or some of the real old homes are demolished and redeveloped into MDUs. It's niche is as one of those neighbourhoods for those who want single family homes, but can't afford Northeastern Queens or further east, but would prefer not to live in a majority black neighbourhood. since LIRR schedules are heavily padded to ensure that the train that's late to Queens Village is "MTA on time" at FBA As a former QV rider, I always found it rather interesting watching the Hempstead trains slowly make their way through QUEENS and arrive at QV late, then magically show up at Jamaica on time. While admittedly, driving from my old home at Cambria Heights to QV was the best option compared to using the Q4 or Q83 + E/F combo or hunting for spots at 179th Street, when I lived at my grandmother's home on Hillside, I ended up using the Q1/43 combo down to the F. The bus ride wasn't too long, and the bus stop was across from her house. As for the spur, it gets complicated when you think about sending it down Springfield Blvd. The NIMBY shrieking will be unbearable. There's always the clunkier option of using the lightly used Clearview Expressway. It certainly makes going to Flushing a bit easier, and one can build a transfer station at Union Turnpike for the Q46. Given the ridership and the hesitation to use articulated buses over the Bronx Whitestone bridge, that is a solution. Junction station at Queensboro Hill between the two light rail lines Flushing-Jamaica/Elmhurst-Oakland Gardens. There's a part of me that wishes that the TBTA had replaced the Whitestone with modern span that would have allowed for a light rail line as part of the design, but there's nearly no chance of that ever happening. |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Dec 27 16:08:00 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 27 15:05:14 2009. So is it a good idea to spend tens or hundreds of millions of dollars so that a few hundred or maybe a thousand people have slightly shorter drives?If you believe like Jared that there's a magical source of extra potential ridership that the LIRR is missing out on, or that a thousand more riders is worth any cost, then yes, it's a good idea. If you believe that the marginal environmental improvements from reduced traffic, petroleum consumption, and carbon emissions are worth the cost, then yes, it's a good idea. Otherwise, if you look at it from a strict cost-benefit analysis, there's plenty of other things you can do first. |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 27 16:49:21 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Dec 27 16:01:44 2009. Maybe it's me, but I still see Queens Village future as a sleepy, quiet safe neighbourhood with very little changing unless the city ever decides to re-zone the industrial areas immediately south of the LIRR ROW or some of the real old homes are demolished and redeveloped into MDUs.I've hung around with developers too long but that was more or less what I was thinking. I'm not expecting it to turn in Flushing or LIC, mind you, but there's room for progress and quite a bit of dead wood there. It's niche is as one of those neighbourhoods for those who want single family homes, but can't afford Northeastern Queens or further east, but would prefer not to live in a majority black neighbourhood. I'm not demographics expert, but Queens Village seems to lie on a belt that extends from roughly Jamaica to maybe East Meadow where there is a sizeable black population but also many other demographic minorities too. Mostly single-family homes, retail strips at major road crossings. Mass transit is almost exclusively bus, whether NYCT, MTAB, or LIB. As a former QV rider, I always found it rather interesting watching the Hempstead trains slowly make their way through QUEENS and arrive at QV late, then magically show up at Jamaica on time. That's the trick - I've seen it many times. Also the other trick where the train leaves Jamaica late after the cross-platform meet, doesn't overspeed, and ends up at FBA on time. There's always the clunkier option of using the lightly used Clearview Expressway. I think that's a mostly useless alignment, though. Not much there until you get up near the water. Plus heading south at the Clearview causes one to miss the garden apartment complexes in Oakland Gardens, a large high school, and Queensborough Community College. Nice try trying to do something with the extra capacity on the Clearview. There's a part of me that wishes that the TBTA had replaced the Whitestone with modern span that would have allowed for a light rail line as part of the design There was a proposal to include a rail component, but you know who didn't want any such provision delaying his timetables. I don't see it happening nowadays, not without huge changes in development. Still, I feel sorry for those Q44 bus commuters, especially with the low floor buses now. |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Dec 27 17:09:42 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 27 15:05:14 2009. You tell me, you're the one insisting that Oyster Bay is so incredibly out of the way and that the line should be forgotten. I never said anywhere that OB is a straight alignment to NY, but neither is Far Rock, WH, or PJ, so what? I already explained that the line runs a little north for Mill Neck-Locust Valley area and that's it. So really the only station that requires backtracking is Oyster Bay. Other than that the alignment from Mineola to Sea Cliff is fairly straight and can handle higher speeds than what are currently reached. |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Dec 27 17:12:35 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Dec 27 16:08:00 2009. The RR isn't necessarily missing out on the ridership, they're just riding other lines. OB line riders are using the PW and PJ lines, but the OB line can get those riders back by electrifying so that there's more direct service and run times are faster. |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Dec 27 17:25:59 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 27 15:18:15 2009. "It sure wasn't built as the quickest way between New York and Oyster Bay, or even Jamaica and Oyster Bay. "Again, you still haven't answered what it's purpose was then. It was probably built as affordably as possible. The North Shore RR considered extending from Great Neck to Roslyn and Huntington, but they opted for Port Washington. But those are 2 different RRs. Face it, the RR built the OB line primarily to serve riders traveling from that area to NYC. As for Brooklyn, I'm saying it's more expensive for riders whose destination or origin (not both) is between Jamaica and FBA. They'll have to pay for a monthly to Jamaica and then the $89 for a monthly metrocard, which comes out to be more expensive than a monthly ticket to/from Brooklyn on just the RR. And again, what about capacity? I'm not talking about 25-30 years down the road, I'm talking 100 years. |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Dec 27 17:34:42 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 27 00:30:52 2009. How about full time city ticket? That's always been something I've wanted to see and it would reduce the fare for those wanting to use the Atlantic branch for travel between Jamaica and Brooklyn. It would be a super express as a subway so a higher fare to a certain degree is reasonable. |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Dec 27 17:37:56 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by trainsarefun on Sat Dec 26 23:28:24 2009. The outrage is because people whose needs are met by the Atlantic line will now have to pay more because now they'll have to get a monthly metrocard. If the RR bleeds so much money, then why not convert the entire damn system out to Ronkonkoma to subway? It's just not reasonable.Again, it's not nostalgia. Look 100 years into the future and you don't think the Brooklyn line will still be needed for western terminal capacity |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Dec 27 17:39:57 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by Edwards! on Sat Dec 26 23:47:53 2009. What is your problem? All I'm saying is that for many the takeover will actually cost them money and for the RR it will dimish western terminal capacity. The subway already has Fulton and Jamaica. Institute full time city ticket. |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Dec 27 17:52:23 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 27 00:20:36 2009. "You can't be all things to all people. At all events, a NYC operation should serve a major trip generator in Queens - Queensborough Community College - instead of running across the wilds of Creedmoor Mental Hospital in order to get to Lake Success. We have much evidence that college students use transit for their trips; not much evidence that transit will garner much share of the Lake Success trips. Also, the civic groups in Lake Success will scream bloody murder if you bring them the subway."Which would generate more trips, St Johns and Lake Success combined, or Queensborough Community College? I'm not throwing Queens College into the mix b/c both of our ideas would serve the school IINM. And NIMBYs will scream bloody murder anywhere over anything. An el over the LIE is not going to be much of a NIMBY problem, especially on the section between Queens Blvd and Van Wyck, which is where the line would be elevated. Just look at the LIE in that area. As for the LIMP ROW, I'm talking about using the section between the Clearview and the GCP. Take a look on google maps satellite view, the ROW has a lot of space between it and homes. There definitely is a space issue from Winfield to the west, not sure how that would be overcome other than TBM. |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Dec 27 18:14:09 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sun Dec 27 13:57:24 2009. Long story short for the railfans is PR once had an extensive rail system circling the entire island with lines also running into some mountain areas (Caguas, San Sebastian). It was used mostly for transport of sugar cane, but also offered passenger service. It basically shut down in the 50s and was torn up. Today a good chunk of the ROW still exists with many structures (old bridges, station houses, etc) still standing. You can even find rails in some places. Tren Del Sur is the line from Ponce to Guayama and Arroyo, and I believe all the rail is still there except for the section from Ponce to the Mercedita Airport. The only existing passenger rail service today is on Tren Urbano, a heavy rail mass transit line operating between Bayamon and Sagrado Corazon. Expansion of the system has been stalled and in large part is shifted towards BRT (except for Sagrado Corazon to Old San Juan which is planned as light rail).Here's a map of what I propose for San Juan: View Tren Urbano Map in a larger map And here's a map showing an idea I have for island-wide rail service (don't mind the 3 stop line in the bottom left, I was using this map to also show old ROWs and stop locations). The vast majority of lines on this map follow the old ROW. View PR Rail System in a larger map |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Dec 27 18:16:08 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Dec 26 22:10:28 2009. Shoulda thought of that before letting outter areas get so populated then. |
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Posted by Gene B. on Sun Dec 27 20:20:03 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by Grand Concourse on Sat Dec 26 02:00:00 2009. We already have the F going from southern Brooklyn to Queens. If we sent the E uptown instead of to Queens, then that would give us the one-seat ride from southern Brooklyn to the Upper West Side. I totally agree with you that the 8th Ave. line needs a presence in southern Brooklyn. |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Dec 27 21:58:13 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by trainsarefun on Sun Dec 27 16:49:21 2009. I've hung around with developers too long but that was more or less what I was thinking. I'm not expecting it to turn in Flushing or LIC, mind you, but there's room for progress and quite a bit of dead wood there.Out of sheer curiosity, has Queens Village been rezoned? IIRC, my old neighbourhood, Cambria Heights, was rezoned to considerably more restrictive zoning preventing any hopes of being anything more dense than one and two family homes. There's always the potential to yank down some of the older homes and place the so-called "Fedders Specials", but I suspect the community board is unlikely to tolerate such development. As I stated earlier, the best spots are the industrial area south of the LIRR station and potentially some upzoning on Jamaica Avenue. I'm not demographics expert, but Queens Village seems to lie on a belt that extends from roughly Jamaica to maybe East Meadow where there is a sizeable black population but also many other demographic minorities too. Mostly single-family homes, retail strips at major road crossings. Mass transit is almost exclusively bus, whether NYCT, MTAB, or LIB. It depends on the corridor that one travels. Following Hillside eastward leads into Glen Oaks and New Hyde Park which have sizable Asian and South Asian populations with no blacks, while Hempstead leads into Elmont and Valley Stream which seem to be spillovers of Cambria Heights and Laurelton. Otherwise, the belt doesn't really pick up until Lakeview and Hempstead or Westbury. I'm waiting to see in the 2010 Census if the "non-white" population grows in traditionally white neighbourhoods like Carle Place or Wantagh, or if there's further spillover into neighbouring areas like Lynbrook, Malverne, or Franklin Square. Also the other trick where the train leaves Jamaica late after the cross-platform meet, doesn't overspeed, and ends up at FBA on time. On the flipside, the Hempstead was always late to the eastbound meets, and we'd still end up at Queens Village on time... I think that's a mostly useless alignment, though Actually, I was thinking of the Clearview alignment as a spur off the LIE line to Hillside Avenue. Heading northward is a bit of a bear since it doesn't really serve anybody, and I don't think the apartments and condos near Bay Terrace are so deserving... |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Dec 28 02:55:54 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Dec 25 23:01:44 2009. The 4 MPHPS was the original acceleration rate on the PCC but it may have been cut down in recent years due the the jerk rate consideration. The BMT Multis had a 4 MPHPS acceleration and deceleration rate which was later cut down to match the acceleration and deceleration rates of the R-16s which were being delivered around the time the the Multis were transferred to Myrtle/Chambers. |
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Posted by trainsarefun on Mon Dec 28 10:31:27 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by randyo on Mon Dec 28 02:55:54 2009. The BMT Multis had a 4 MPHPS acceleration and deceleration rate which was later cut down to match the acceleration and deceleration rates of the R-16s which were being delivered around the time the the Multis were transferred to Myrtle/Chambers.Thanks for your comment, as always. One question: The Multis were essentially rapid transit EMUs based on PCC tech - is that a fair one sentence version of the vision? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Dec 28 10:35:41 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Dec 25 23:01:44 2009. the 4.0 mphs meme is legend of PCC foamersMost assuredly not, and not a "meme". Never been on the Newark Subway prior to LRV conversion? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Dec 28 10:39:39 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by 156n3rd on Sat Dec 26 21:36:12 2009. you are just not open to a concept that you didn't think of yourselfWhat concept? Form is an expense that often trumps function when costs are a factor. |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Dec 28 10:55:46 2009, in response to Re: Future expansion wish list?, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sun Dec 27 14:24:16 2009. London's Central Line is about that length, so it's doable. But you know that the urban/suburban (or next city) divide is not 50 miles out in any directionCounting the length of branches distorts the length of a trip from one end to another. And who'd ride from Epping to West Ruislip on that line anyway, at your typical 20.6 mph average speed? (Bad enough the closure of the line to Ongar.) connecting cities to one another isn't commuter rail No, that's exactly what it is. The busiest commuter lines connect cities with cities, the least busy to towns with populations in the four-figure range. |
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