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| (467361) | |
Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Sat Jul 28 00:23:57 2007, in response to Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Jul 25 14:32:28 2007. Nice pictures, actually a friend of mine that lives on Gates near there told me that some of the houses on the block were built recently and look like old brownstones (her house fits that category too). |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by ntrainride on Sat Jul 28 00:50:20 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by E Line Fan on Fri Jul 27 21:21:14 2007. Harlem is lucky. Hell of a lot more parks than Bensonhurst or Borough Park or Flatlands, that's for damn sure. Closest thing to a park in much of southern Brooklyn is Washington Cemetery or the Ocean Parkway service roads or the Belt Parkway pedestrian path. But since so much of the area has had a large low to medium-income Italian-American or Jewish population I guess nobody gives a crap. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by ntrainride on Sat Jul 28 00:58:07 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 26 07:33:54 2007. Of course. The city is so large that it's a fact of life that most of the citizens have to travel a long way to get to a beach. In that they're extremely lucky. How many places on Earth can you take a subway to an ocean? Not many is my guess. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by E Line Fan on Sat Jul 28 01:12:37 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by ntrainride on Sat Jul 28 00:50:20 2007. I think the street plan had some to do with northern Manhattan. Manhattan's topography changes beginning about 110th Street and I think the idea was to keep the grid system where possible and fill in where not. Morningside Park, the first of several "ribbon" parks, is an example of this. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sat Jul 28 01:42:22 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by E Line Fan on Sat Jul 28 01:12:37 2007. Morningside Park, St. Nicholas Park, and Jackie Robinson Park (formerly Colonial Park) where created due to the typography of Manhattan in the Harlem Valley area. While on a flat map, these parks seem to contain a lost of surface area, that is not actually the case. Such a map view is decieving. These parks contain rocky hillsides, steep stairs, and not a great deal of surface area for recreational facilities.It should be noted that of course these parks pre-date Robert Moses, and therefore do not "count" as parks that he created during his tenure. Yes, some improvements as well as the installation of some facilities to these parks were made during his tenure. Mike |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sat Jul 28 02:42:03 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jul 27 23:11:02 2007. The Power Broker, Robert Caro, pg 492-3-4But Moses simply shouted the reformers down. He replied - in replies that received better newspaper "play" than the statements he was replying to - that he was giving the slums parks - great parks. What, he demanded, was the great recreational complex he was building on Randall's Island? The great recreational complex he was building at Riverside Park? They were "easily accessible" to Harlem. As for small parks within the slums themselves, his "experience," he said, had taught him that they were just "too expensive" to be considered. Three acres, he said, was the smallest area that could be "controlled and managed" as a park. And since three acres is 130,680 square feet and land bearing profitable slum tenements was going in the 1930's for about $30 per square foot and a single park would thus cost the city about $4,000,000 for land acquisition costs alone, and since as many as 2,500 people might he displaced by the razing of the tenements involved and would have to be relocated, this was an unanswerable argument - if you accepted it. Many reformers - far more than had ever disagreed with Moses before - did not accept it. A park did not have to be three acres to help a slum, they said. It could be the smallest crevice in the grim wall of tenements; even a space the size of a single 100 foot by 20 foot building lot - or smaller - could if planted with grass and a few trees or if equipped with a few benches mean so much to the people of the block on which it was located. Something does not have to be big to brighten something that is drab, to bring pride to a place without any pride. Because they have nothing else to do, the people of the slums spend a lot of time looking out their windows; if there was a small park, even a tiny park, in the neighborhood, there would be a pleasant little scene to look at, something affirmative; even if there was no grass in the park there could be a few benches - and all at the once the neighborhood would have a better place to rest than the fenders of parked cars; a vest pocket park could be an elegant little plaza, but it could also be just a place for a kid to play or the elderly to relax - or for a pregnant mother to sit down for a minute on a walk home from the grocery store that suddenly seemed longer than it ever had before. The reformers, experts in parks, knew there were good small parks in other cities; they knew that Moses' argument was wrong. Furthermore, these reformers said, Randall's Island and Riverside Park were not "easily accessible" to the slums. The Triborough Bridge would make the island accessible by car, but the people of the slums didn't have cars. There would, by Moses' edict, be no bus service to the island; the only way to get there would be to walk - from the nearest point in Harlem or the South Bronx a good three-quarters of a mile. And that was from the nearest point of the slums, the edge of the river. From most of the slums, you would have to walk much further; from the center of Harlem, then 145th Street, say, more than two miles. Riverside Park along the Hudson River was a hike up a long, achingly steep hill from the nearest point in Harlem. People didn't want to hike long distances to parks; they wanted recreational facilities close at hand, so that every trip to sit under a tree or shoot some baskets didn't have to be an expedition. The people of the slums wouldn't use those parks, they said. Morningside, St. Nicholas, and Colonial Parks, the three parks which formed the western border of Harlem, were fine, they said, but there was no park between them and the East River. In the entire three square miles of Harlem, an area which contained 300,000 people, there wasn't a single patch of green. But while newspapers printed the reformers' resolutions, they did not support them editorially. And the reform front on the issue was not solid. The prestigious Park Association of New York City was dominated by elderly park fighters clung to the old view of parks; its insistence that Central Park be kept for passive contemplation was the proof of the way it really felt. And while its president, Mrs. Sultzberger, was more liberal on the point than many of her colleagues, Mrs. Sultzberger was not criticizing Robert Moses. And Moses was not listening to criticism, anyway. When an alderman from Harlem wrote to Moses appealing for more playgrounds, Moses replied that he was, of course, "in entire sympathy with what you have in mind" but that "the sites you suggest are too expensive. We shall provide one playground in Harlem...." When the alderman ventured to write him again on the subject, Moses declined to continue the correspondence. |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jul 28 04:25:30 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by Michael549 on Sat Jul 28 01:42:22 2007. It should be noted that of course these parks pre-date Robert Moses, and therefore do not "count" as parks that he created during his tenureSO what, if there are parks there already what the heck is the difference? Add more parks just for the sake of adding more? |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jul 28 04:26:47 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by ntrainride on Sat Jul 28 00:58:07 2007. That's the ridiculous thing about this argument. Everyone can't be within a half hour of the beach. |
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Re: Downtown Brooklyn/Fort Greene Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Jul 28 04:29:04 2007, in response to Re: Downtown Brooklyn/Fort Greene Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Jul 25 21:07:44 2007. And even Bushwick (from what I read in the New York Daily News special section The Bronx Is Burning) has some of those condos now and could be the next area to become "I can't afford to live there."The rents in New York in general have gotten out-of-hand, and it's even having effects here in Philly, where some in New York live, putting up with two-hour commutes each way because the rents here are lower than New York, driving up the rents in some areas here. |
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Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jul 28 04:31:00 2007, in response to Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway, posted by ntrainride on Sat Jul 28 00:05:54 2007. Huh? So they should just have left the building falling apart? What the heck are you talking about? Williamsburg and Bushwick are two different neighborhoods. Williamsburg is far ahead of Bushwick at this time, but that doesn't mean Bushwick isn't coming back too, it is....it's just a few years behind. It has to be done little by little, building by building, street by street, section by section. I don't understand what you are trying to say here at all. |
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Re: Robert Moses/Donald Trump |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Jul 28 04:37:38 2007, in response to Re: Robert Moses, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 26 07:29:32 2007. Absolutely:Could you imagine New York without the Verazano-Narrows bridge? Now, as for Trumpland, that's a whole other issue, but you do have to remember that Trump took a lot of chances back in the '70s and '80s when no one wanted to build in Manhattan, which is how he became the success he became in the first place. |
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| (467429) | |
Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 28 05:02:10 2007, in response to Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway, posted by ntrainride on Sat Jul 28 00:18:52 2007. Gentrification is indeed a problem for longtimers who hung in there and made it throught the bad times. They are the ones who rejuvenated these places. As I mentioned in the earlier post, I was never too familiar with that area. I do remember how it looked like though and the (LL) did indeed have an awful reputation. I don't know if it actually had much more crime then other lines but the word of mouth was not good. |
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| (467432) | |
Re: Robert Moses and Society in General in the "old days" |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Jul 28 05:34:16 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 26 07:36:50 2007. Exactly:The mentality that was around back in the '20s and '30s was FAR different than what we would see in later generations. There was that kind of racism all over the country, and especially of course a lot of more of it the further south you went. The laws and thinking were much different when Moses was pushing through his roads. |
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Re: The LL in the '80s |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Jul 28 05:39:39 2007, in response to Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway, posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 28 05:02:10 2007. SMAZ:I actually rode the LL line in 1983-'84 when I went to school in East Flatbush (as that was the closest line where I didn't have to also ride a bus to school), and it never was that bad in those days. This was when much of that area was not exactly the best part of the city to say the least. |
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| (467437) | |
Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Jul 28 06:03:42 2007, in response to Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway, posted by ntrainride on Sat Jul 28 00:18:52 2007. Heh. We STILL live with the stereotype of "you only go to the BRONX to DIE." And yeah, I managed to get shot by a moron on a rooftop who missed who they were aiming at but fact is the four times I got ripped off were ALL in MANHATTAN! Once in the theatre district, twice in Greenwich Village and the other was on Broad and Beaver in the financial district. Hmmmmmmm. :)In 2001, went for a ride on the Franklin Shuttle with some buddies and encountered some "juvenile gangsta" types who tried to game us. Had a REAL chuckle staring them down and then giving the "Bernie Goetz" style "wanna rock?" Heh. Actually found it comical, and so did they. Growing up in da Bronx, I learned that if you don't step in it, mind your business and are the craziest bastard on the car, you get left alone. AND you get a seat. Heh. |
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Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway |
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Posted by shiznit1987 on Sat Jul 28 09:27:29 2007, in response to Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway, posted by SMAZ on Sat Jul 28 05:02:10 2007. No, the cops rejuvinated that area. Trust me, had it not been for A) the growth of the NYPD and B) the decline of Crack cocaine, those areas would be in the same shape they are today. |
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| (467487) | |
Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Jul 28 11:04:42 2007, in response to Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway, posted by shiznit1987 on Sat Jul 28 09:27:29 2007. Look...The "cops" didn't fix nothing. The PEOPLE got tired of that bull.. Tire of the crackheads..tired of fighting..just plain tired. I read most of your post..and you sound as if you know EXACTLY what the ill's were that affected those neighborhoods. Question... Crack and all the other drugs invaded the poorer sections of NY since the mid'60'...[with the crack explotion during the early 80's]. What happened to REAGANs WAR ON DRUGS?.. What happened to the DEA's efforts to stop drug trafficing? How could an person move in a nab a set up a CRACK HOUSE..and STAY they for years? They don't make cocaine in the inner city..it has to be imported,just like guns... I'll tell you exactly what happened,and it Will be the truth with no sugar coating involved...[most of you cats wont like it..but since we are being blunt it doesn't matter how you feel. It all started with the Black Awareness movement...during the 60's..Black People were coming into their own..doing..and LIVING like the AMERICAN DREAM..trying to improve their lives.. Getting JOBS that ordinarily would passed on the the other man..or told they did Not qualify for...buying homes..owning property and so forth. VOTING..ELECTING city officals..THAT became a threat to the "old way of thinking" people in charge.[If these people woke up..they might start taking our jobs,moving into our neighborhoods,even dating our children!].. Whole neighborhoods were then blacklisted..no loans..no grants..houses were ALLOWED TO CRUMBLE..BURN..to the grounds..FIRE response was slow,Police treated people like they were ANIMALS,and they were the ZOO KEEPERS..you couldn't even TALK to a cop. Supermarkets were far a few in between...but none of those things stopped the people from STRIVING to make a better life. It was a war..waged on people of color by the WHITE MAN though economics..and when that didn't work..the WAR shifted to mental and spiritual levels. Put them DOWN..KEEP THEM DOWN..and give them something to MEDICATED those feelings..Keep them from getting involved with the daily operations..make it HARD for them to keep their families together.. Place a bunch of rules for them to abide by..and IF the break them,take away their children..look them up..specifically the MALES of them household. Dump a shit load of DRUGS in the nab..which would tear the life blood out of them.Keep the families on the SYSTEM..so they would NOT want to enter the MAINSTREAM...but only give them enough so they could barely live off.Keep the schools at SUB PAR levels so the children would not be as smart as WHITE CHILDREN. That was the plan..and it worked for a while..untill people of faith UNDERSTOOD what was going on..and FOUGHT like their live depended on it[it did]. The drugs that were killing us off...? People became TIRED of that bullshit..when they FINALLY found out it was a GOVERNMENT PLAN to keep us out of the loop or kill us off. SAY NO TO DRUGS WAS the CLARION CALL to the FEDS FROM BLACKS ACROSS THE COUNTRY...[You want to KILL US..then you going to have to find another way..] Now since DRUGS have fallen off..[became as outdated as Calvin Clein Jeans]..neighborhoods have become safer..a NEW threat has come into play.. White folks..who would NEVER enter a Black/Latino area[its not safe] started moving into the "Hood".. Why? Besides being PRICED OUT OF MANHATTAN,where the rents were climbing though the roof..these "URBAN PIONEERS" opened up a realestate nightmare..where a group of them would purchase a home..fix it up..sell it at twice or maybe three times the price they bought it for,driving up rents..making it harder for the people that ALREADY LIVE HERE to find a home. New developments popping up all over the place,priced out of the reach of the natives...intentional so,mind you...to section the locations WHERE the poorer people can live..namely the housing projects..or family homes passed down. This NEW movement sucks royal ass..and if it were up to me...it wouldn't happen.Its another form of "lets take everything they have,and keep em down,bunch them up...with just enough to live"... It shows that you know nothing about the inner city..and you should do a little research BEFORE you pass judgment. |
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Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Jul 28 11:06:28 2007, in response to Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway, posted by ntrainride on Sat Jul 28 00:18:52 2007. You ain't kiddin" |
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Re: The LL in the '80s |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Jul 28 11:08:23 2007, in response to Re: The LL in the '80s, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Jul 28 05:39:39 2007. Yes..so did I..rode the Eastern Division to and from school.Never had a problem on the subway. |
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Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Jul 28 11:19:08 2007, in response to Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway, posted by ntrainride on Sat Jul 28 00:05:54 2007. It doesn't need to..Its there to help that neighborhood along...and its a good thing. I KNOW THAT place like the back of my hand..a while Howard Avenue didn't suffer as much like most sections of BedSty did..the Movie house was still a eyesore. Broadway in and of itself was crap for year after 77...victim of the times..victim of the economic sledgehammer the city and bankers dropped on it.Victim of the cracks death hold. Things have changed..for the better..and it not for you to say whether it works..or is "AS GOOD" as the other "up and coming" neighborhoods. It's WORKING for the PEOPLE that Live there..and that good enough. |
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Re: The LL in the '80s |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 28 11:33:47 2007, in response to Re: The LL in the '80s, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Jul 28 05:39:39 2007. The LL was always that scary train looking down at me when the J passed under it at Eastern Parkway. My father hated it, my sister was banned from riding it (she did once, and was nearly mugged) and I was one nervous teenager when I finally worked up the courage to ride it myself in 1985. |
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Re: The LL in the '80s |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jul 28 12:02:42 2007, in response to Re: The LL in the '80s, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 28 11:33:47 2007. The L was fine west of Broadway Junction, but east, it was a nightmare in the 80's. |
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Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jul 28 12:05:18 2007, in response to Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway, posted by Edwards! on Sat Jul 28 11:19:08 2007. Exactly...I don't understand what his point was. The Bushwick Theater was a disaster, and a blight on the community. Fixing that up transfromed that whole intersection, and that rubs off on surrounding streets. They could have just torn the old building down, and built a nondescript school buildiung there, but to their credit, not only did they restore a historic building, but a beautiful one besides. And THAT IS good for the community. |
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Re: Robert Moses/Donald Trump |
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Posted by JohnnyMints on Sat Jul 28 12:06:20 2007, in response to Re: Robert Moses/Donald Trump, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Jul 28 04:37:38 2007. But now it's 2007 and we need a new generation of transportation infrastructure -- transit AND road!Here are some of my suggestions, off the top of my head. -Build underground connectors from the Lincoln Tunnel to the Queens-Midtown tunnel (which would have no access to Manhattan streets; just a thru tunnel connecting the two tunnels), and another one linking the Holland Tunnel with the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel. -Completely rebuild the Gowanus/BQE, perhaps sinking it in a tunnel and adding bus-only and truck-only lanes. -Expand the XBL in the Lincoln Tunnel by boring a tunnel underneath the approach and another tube for bus use only. -A rail tunnel under the Bay from Staten Island to Manhattan, as suggested here, doesn't sound like that bad an idea. -Direct NJ Transit and LIRR service to Lower Manhattan -A regional rail service, as promoted by the RPA. -Freight rail tunnel under the Bay -Bus-only lanes on Manhattan's avenues and crosstown streets that are strictly enforced and seperated from other traffic. Another version of this would have certain streets be open only for buses and/or trucks (for local deliveries). -Subway shuttles under major Manhattan crosstown streets; 57th, 42nd (expand the Shuttle), 34th, 23rd, Canal. 14th obviously already has one, for all intents and purposes. The subways could extend into the outer boroughs and/or into New Jersey and be more for subway connections while the crosstown buses would pretty much be the same as now; local service and more for bus connections. -Second Avenue EXPRESS tracks, and extensions into the Bronx and Brooklyn -Many more BTW, I think congestion pricing is a good idea. Face it - the region is strangling with inadequate transportation options and it will only get worse. We need a 21st Century transportation-building craze. |
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Re: The LL in the '80s |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 28 12:14:14 2007, in response to Re: The LL in the '80s, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jul 28 12:02:42 2007. My father hated the entire subway system, so from his descriptions I developed almost an irrational fear of the LL. It was really a no man's land. At no time did anyone in our family ever take me on it as a kid. Add that to the near mugging my sister endured back around 1982 and you see why it was a scary line to me. |
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Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Jul 28 12:15:20 2007, in response to Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jul 28 12:05:18 2007. Right..that exactly why I stressed the point.I was THERE when it was at it's WORST. Today,things are much better..even though there is always room for improvement. |
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Re: Robert Moses/Donald Trump |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Jul 28 12:23:40 2007, in response to Re: Robert Moses/Donald Trump, posted by JohnnyMints on Sat Jul 28 12:06:20 2007. This isn't Dubi,dude.There is a limit to what the city and state governments are willing to spend on. While I agree that we need new ways and means to get around..very little will be built for the"outer boro's"..especially transit. Case in point..the lower Manhattan access line...a Utica avenue subway..a Nostrand avenue extension..the Gowanus relocation..All planned at one time but placed on the back burner in place of Manhattan projects. The LMA line even had money placed towards its EIS..MILLIONS of dollars. Wasted... |
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Re: Robert Moses/Donald Trump |
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Posted by JohnnyMints on Sat Jul 28 12:39:11 2007, in response to Re: Robert Moses/Donald Trump, posted by Edwards! on Sat Jul 28 12:23:40 2007. I know, but this pussyfooting has to stop. This shit needs to get done, and in a timely fashion. Like years ago, if something had to get done, it got done come hell or high water.I'm not saying that was necessarily a good thing in all cases (a lot of people got dislocated and a lot of historical neighborhoods and landmarks got bulldozed), but it still got done. Today, technology exists to build stuff and minimize the impact to people and surrounding areas. What will happen if simply getting from one place to another in metro New York becomes more difficult than climbing Mount Everest (in some cases, it already seems that way)? What will happen if a devestating incident occurs in one of the many Single Points of Failure (the worst ones IMO being the Hudson River and East River RR tunnels... if something renders one of those tunnels unusable, we're fucked any which way you want it). Because the alternate options (PATH, subway, roads, etc) will not be able to handle all the extra overflow. |
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Re: The LL in the '80s |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jul 28 12:55:46 2007, in response to Re: The LL in the '80s, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jul 28 12:02:42 2007. Well, my father in the 60's and 70's was a daily user of the LL line (which he still calls it to this day), so he was pretty used to it, but he only rode if west of Myrtle Ave. So of course, he often took me on it too. I remember trasferring with him when I was a little kid at Union Square to go home, and we got on the L. This was around 1976 or so, and back then there were always "dark cars" on the R16's or R27-30's where the lights didn't work. Well, we walked into one of these "dark cars" at Union Square, and the smell of "funny weed" filled the car. I remember looking up at my father innocently and say, "what's that smell?"...He just looked down and said, "I don't know, let's move to the next car".... It wasn't till I was a teenager that I smelled that smell again, and then of course the revelation came over me...."Ohhhhhh, that's what that smell was on the L train......" |
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Re: Robert Moses/Donald Trump |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Jul 28 13:10:10 2007, in response to Re: Robert Moses/Donald Trump, posted by JohnnyMints on Sat Jul 28 12:39:11 2007. No question that you are correct...But my point is..if it isn't a prime choice project that has the backing of every willie nillie politian behind it..it won't get built. Thats how things get done in NY..and its a damn shame that its that way. Sheldon Silver is the PRIME SUSPECT for this kind of thinking..along with a few others.mind you. Silver is more transit minded out of the lot...but propose to him a project that does NOT serve HIS INTREST,and he will vote NO. Also..politians had alot to do with the failings of the MTA from it conception from the late 60's to TODAY. No to get off topic..but every noble plan that was worth it's salt to come down the pike..has met some opposition because they didn't get the "proper homage" [ie..cash or favors to grease the palm]. It's sickening..but its true..and it has to stop. |
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Re: The LL in the '80s |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Jul 28 14:06:44 2007, in response to Re: The LL in the '80s, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jul 28 12:55:46 2007. LOL...!Yeah..thats one UNFORGETTABLE smell. For me,its enough to make you sick..[for real..deathly ill...]so I had to walk the other way..and severely repremand folks AROUND me that used. Lungs couldn't take it. |
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Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway |
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Posted by JohnnyMints on Sat Jul 28 15:23:30 2007, in response to Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway, posted by Edwards! on Sat Jul 28 11:04:42 2007. Okay, I'm feeling daring so I'm gonna take you on!"It all started with the Black Awareness movement...during the 60's..Black People were coming into their own..doing..and LIVING like the AMERICAN DREAM..trying to improve their lives.. Getting JOBS that ordinarily would passed on the the other man..or told they did Not qualify for...buying homes..owning property and so forth. VOTING..ELECTING city officals..THAT became a threat to the "old way of thinking" people in charge.[If these people woke up..they might start taking our jobs,moving into our neighborhoods,even dating our children!].. Whole neighborhoods were then blacklisted..no loans..no grants..houses were ALLOWED TO CRUMBLE..BURN..to the grounds..FIRE response was slow,Police treated people like they were ANIMALS,and they were the ZOO KEEPERS..you couldn't even TALK to a cop. Supermarkets were far a few in between...but none of those things stopped the people from STRIVING to make a better life. It was a war..waged on people of color by the WHITE MAN though economics..and when that didn't work..the WAR shifted to mental and spiritual levels." The history of the deterioration of cities and neighborhoods is very complex and the opinions of how and why it happened depends on who you ask. No question race played a huge role. Now this is all way before my time, but from what I can gather through readings etc is that roughly around the same time as black people from the south were moving into northern cities, there had already been a pattern of established white people moving away and into the new suburbs. This was suburbanization, and as black people moved in, they faced discrimination and harassment by the old timers, and neglect from the city officials. The Black Power movement was born of all these frustrations and hardships and as black people started feeling more empowered and became vocal, white people started feeling threatened. Rioting and looting was an explosion of tension, which had reached a critical point, and it seemed almost contageous in how it occured, and let's face it, there were troublemakers in the midst as well, who took advantage of the civil unrest to go apeshit and burn buildings down and loot stores. Those incidents only triggered even more of the white population to flee. Meanwhile, as you said, there was a disinvestment in inner cities and a lot of investments in the suburbs. Cities were left to die and suburbs were promoted as the wave of the future. "Put them DOWN..KEEP THEM DOWN..and give them something to MEDICATED those feelings..Keep them from getting involved with the daily operations..make it HARD for them to keep their families together.. Place a bunch of rules for them to abide by..and IF the break them,take away their children..look them up..specifically the MALES of them household. Dump a shit load of DRUGS in the nab..which would tear the life blood out of them.Keep the families on the SYSTEM..so they would NOT want to enter the MAINSTREAM...but only give them enough so they could barely live off.Keep the schools at SUB PAR levels so the children would not be as smart as WHITE CHILDREN. That was the plan..and it worked for a while..untill people of faith UNDERSTOOD what was going on..and FOUGHT like their live depended on it[it did]. The drugs that were killing us off...? People became TIRED of that bullshit..when they FINALLY found out it was a GOVERNMENT PLAN to keep us out of the loop or kill us off. SAY NO TO DRUGS WAS the CLARION CALL to the FEDS FROM BLACKS ACROSS THE COUNTRY...[You want to KILL US..then you going to have to find another way..]" That's a highly outrageous conspiracy theory. Do you have conclusive evidence of this? People of ALL backgrounds, races, ethnicities etc are always accusing the government of all sorts of crazy shit, from crack being a secret WMD to destroy the black community to covering up alien abductions to attempting to make people submissive to authority by additives and chemicals in diet soda. The real threats are the Drug Dealers and THEY are the ones who need to be locked up for a long time. Junkies need to enter rehab and make sure it sticks. Jail time for drug users is counterproductive since they are the victims, not the perps. No doubt about it, though, that drugs are destructive to individuals, families and whole communities and it's always a good thing when people wise up and turn their backs to it. "Now since DRUGS have fallen off..[became as outdated as Calvin Clein Jeans]..neighborhoods have become safer..a NEW threat has come into play.. White folks..who would NEVER enter a Black/Latino area[its not safe] started moving into the "Hood".. Why? Besides being PRICED OUT OF MANHATTAN,where the rents were climbing though the roof..these "URBAN PIONEERS" opened up a realestate nightmare..where a group of them would purchase a home..fix it up..sell it at twice or maybe three times the price they bought it for,driving up rents..making it harder for the people that ALREADY LIVE HERE to find a home. New developments popping up all over the place,priced out of the reach of the natives...intentional so,mind you...to section the locations WHERE the poorer people can live..namely the housing projects..or family homes passed down. This NEW movement sucks royal ass..and if it were up to me...it wouldn't happen.Its another form of "lets take everything they have,and keep em down,bunch them up...with just enough to live"..." Through the use of eminant domain and gentrification (which I am generally AGAINST, btw), what you are describing is happening all over the place, and yes, it is unfortunately pricing out longtime residents, some of whom are poor and cannot afford to move elsewhere. Which is why AFFORDABLE HOUSING NEEDS to be a major componant and ALL redevelopment projects (it already is in many of them). Redevelopment in and of itself is generally not a bad thing, IMO. I mean, if there is a city neighborhood with large number of abandoned buildings and empty lots... why the hell not restore the buildings and infill the lots, welcoming a new community made up of all sorts of people from all different backgrounds and income levels! The Bottom Line: You can't please everyone; but we should all do our best to get along with each other. "It shows that you know nothing about the inner city..and you should do a little research BEFORE you pass judgment." No argument there. Education is the best thing. And I am always reminding myself to be as objective as possible, and to NOT pass judgment, most of which is just a reflection of personal views and biases. |
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Re: The LL in the '80s |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Jul 28 17:10:05 2007, in response to Re: The LL in the '80s, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jul 28 12:55:46 2007. I rode on the Larry every Saturday from 1967 to 1970 between 8th Ave. and Lorimer St. BMT standards still ruled the roost in '67 but by 1969 the R-7/9s started to appear and finally a few R-42s called it home once the last of the standards were gone. Never had any problems, although there were a few characters. There was a Puerto Rican guy once who was trying to sell a whip for $2.00, then there were these two guys, one of whom hollered out to the other, "Hey Ron, next stop - Havana!" as we pulled into 6th Ave. Maybe they wanted to fly the train to Cuba.... |
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Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Jul 28 17:34:50 2007, in response to Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway, posted by JohnnyMints on Sat Jul 28 15:23:30 2007. Some thoughts from a 60+ year old who lived through some of this history though not all in NY. Do I believe an ACTIVE well planned centralized promotion of dope among urban blacks? Not per se, but in terms of negligence, corrupt cops, racist attitudes, hell yes. Anectdote from my youth: summer w/granddad in Chicago head to the Loop w/some other neighborhood boys (12-14) talk our way into the Fire Dept Central office and get the 'nickel' tour from one of the guys. He shows us a "model board" with lights showing which fire stations are out on a call. He explains trhat this board is replicated in each firehouse so they are aware. There is one station light set some distance from all the others--I inquire what, why. Oh that's Englewood, the n------ are always having fires we don't bother telling anyone else about that. A conversation w/ my aunt later on brings the comment that in the black neighborhoods the slumlords illegally fail to heat the apartments so the residents have little stoves in their own spaces thus many fires. Classic. The city could have forced the slumlords to provide heat, they didn't. Would this happen in a "nicer" neighborhood? I think not.Transit content: spend time analysing bus deployment/subway car class assignments, sometimes the "pain" of low performing units is widely spread as rush hour trippers sometimes the junk is concentrated in specific areas. Background: The GI bill and its sibling acts facilitated mass exodus from city apartments to suburban housing subdivisions on the cheap which in turn drove both auto usage and highway construction. Remember too this was an era when not only banks, insurance co's, and realtors "steered" blacks away from certain areas, sellers and buyers signed covenants not to allow Negros, Jews, Armenians and others to buy or rent. With transit haters like Moses came the end of subway expansion while freeways metastised. The morning the Dan Ryan Expwy opened in Chicago, the Rock Island and Illinois Central commute lines it paralleld lost 5000 riders. Meanwhile, the expway construction had destroyed many thousands of apartments whose residents were 'herded' into the Taylor, Ida B Wells etc--some of the nastiest projects ever. During the same period Daley's stooge running the schools kept putting portables (Willis wagons) on the playgrounds @ black schools while whites fled to the 'burbs abd parochial schools as neighborhoods were blockbusted. Current reality: zipcode based insurance redlining means a friend/sometime roommate borrowed an address 5 blocks away--but in Berkeley--to save several hundred $$ a year on auto insurance. Irony dept: In my transit archive I have a BART newsletter bragging about the slum clearance surrounding a station then under construction. In the last decade the city of Oakland spent many millions to build a "transit village" there which is not yet fully leased. |
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Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Jul 28 17:45:31 2007, in response to Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway, posted by JohnnyMints on Sat Jul 28 15:23:30 2007. Cool...I based my feeling on what I've seen..family views[especial my parents and grandparents...] other venues[such as reading history eyewitnessing the KKK at work in the south AND IN NYS..and everyday walks of life. Agree or not,the simple dynamics of how things were/are in the "big city" will always leave a bad taste in ones mouth. |
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Re: The LL in the '80s |
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Posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Sat Jul 28 17:58:05 2007, in response to Re: The LL in the '80s, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 28 12:14:14 2007. >>Add that to the near mugging my sister endured<<What is a "near mugging" if I may ask? |
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Re: The LL in the '80s |
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Posted by BEDT26 on Sat Jul 28 18:47:55 2007, in response to Re: The LL in the '80s, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Jul 28 05:39:39 2007. AHH Yes! The good old LL days,back in the 70's when I started riding the LL I can say I was lucky to ride the good old R7/9's,then sadly got retired and the TA assinged R-16 & R-27/30,then the R-40 slants,and then the R-42's. I can remember in 1977 the TA was working on the eastbound tunnel on the LL and it was only one tube for the trains to run from Manhattan to Brooklyn,I tell you guys if any of you remember it was a pain to wait for trains both ways. |
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Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway |
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Posted by shiznit1987 on Sat Jul 28 18:56:03 2007, in response to Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway, posted by Rail Blue on Thu Jul 26 05:28:35 2007. Ah yes, the inevitable "OMGWTFBBQ Hitler!!!!111!!!" argument that comes out of every liberal debating a moderate and/or conservative.As for restricting housing supply, I said nothing of the sort. Frankly, NYC needs to ramp up housing production. |
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Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway |
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Posted by shiznit1987 on Sat Jul 28 19:03:53 2007, in response to Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway, posted by Edwards! on Sat Jul 28 11:04:42 2007. So in short:"It's all whitey's fault" Now, I will say this, 90% of what you said in your post did happen. And it is a tragedy. However, the whole "CIA" thing is garbage. Frank Lucas and many others started the heroin trade in the 1960s. Guess what, they were Black. Italians got the ball rolling, but by the 1970s, the AAs had their own operations. As for "the community", I don't see "the community" doing anything when another young black man is gunned down by another young black man, so I don't buy it. Trust me, another crime wave will return. Hopefully, we'll never see 1,000+ homicides, but like the waves, another one will come. And the same shit will happen again, proving nothing has changed. |
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Re: The LL in the '80s |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Sat Jul 28 19:47:25 2007, in response to Re: The LL in the '80s, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 28 11:33:47 2007. Funny how you should mention looking at the LL from the Jamaica El at Eastern Pkway and how it looked scary. I had the opposite feeling the first time I saw the LL at Eastern Pkway from the J in the late 60's. Up until then I thought the only Standards left was on the Culver Shuttle. The Franklin had the ugly R-11's and although now I know the "M" still had Standards then for some reason I never saw them and I railfanned the Myrtle a lot to ride the Q's. So I would ride the Culver to ride on a Standard. One day I got off the J at Eastern Pkway to get the "A" to my grandmother's in Far Rock and there I spotted it! A train of Standards upstairs on the Canarsie Line. And it wasn't a slow two car train going the four stops from ( Av to Ditmars!!! Well, I was very late to my grandmother's as I made the round trip to Eighth Avenue and back. And that was the start of numerous rides on the LL!!! |
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Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway |
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Posted by JohnnyMints on Sat Jul 28 19:53:50 2007, in response to Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway, posted by shiznit1987 on Sat Jul 28 19:03:53 2007. "Trust me, another crime wave will return. Hopefully, we'll never see 1,000+ homicides, but like the waves, another one will come. And the same shit will happen again, proving nothing has changed."I hope and pray to God that you're wrong about that. |
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Re: The LL in the '80s |
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Posted by BMTLines on Sat Jul 28 20:01:48 2007, in response to Re: The LL in the '80s, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Jul 28 12:55:46 2007. Guess it was the other High Line.... |
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Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Jul 28 20:26:03 2007, in response to Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway, posted by shiznit1987 on Sat Jul 28 19:03:53 2007. I'm not asking you to "buy" into any thing..I'm stating HISTORY..and as NASTY as it sounds..it's the truth. Also..if you say.." whitey did it" its from YOUR typed fingers.. I'm pointing at the sorce..and the RESULTS of that.It was the OLD WAY of Thinking that created that mess...and its the NEW WAY that brought us out of it... I am not sugar coating what happened,nor am I stating that the residents were INNOCENT... But if you place a certain number of people in a depressed situation..and do your damnest to KEEP THEM THERE..what do you think would happen? I'm mean look at the facts..the DRUG RAGE NEVER hit WHITE neighborhoods like it did other sections of the city..AND only when it FINALLY TRICKLED in did the city government want to do something about it. Yes,I'm saying that "whitey" had PLENTY to do with what was going on..because they CONTROLLED EVERY FACET OF LIFE in those neighborhoods..from the home they lived in..to the schools they attended..to the MARKETS THEY SHOPPED...to the drugs that invaded to destroy. So whether you "buy it" or not..matters very little..because its HISTORY...and nothing can change it. And Ill repeat what I said about the POLICE... They did NOTHING to SOLVE the problem..did NOTHING to help EASE the problem..only added to it by stopping every single person around thinking they were dealers/users...some even went as far as "shakin down dealers..and using the drugs themselves! Do I lie? Certainly not.. My brother in law is a COP..and has been one for 20plus years. He told use the stories...and I [have seen some of that crap first hand ..believe him]..that why he' was able to come thur the 80's and 90's with his skin still intact..[not to mention being heavy into church and being saved].. Nobody is perfect..and anywhere and everywhere you go,you'll see that most people tend to think and do likewise. Your "Black On Black Crime POINT making" remark..Yes..crime HAPPENS..its part of what MAKES a city a city... You still have your knuckle heads walking around with a need to prove something to themselves..and its a shame. But I don't see life with a hardboiled outlook such as yourself..and from the feel of it,You are hoping something goes goes wrong..so you can toot you horn. I feel for you..but really don't care. GET a grip... |
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Re: The LL in the '80s |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Jul 28 20:39:00 2007, in response to Re: The LL in the '80s, posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Sat Jul 28 17:58:05 2007. Almost getting robbed? |
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Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway |
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Posted by shiznit1987 on Sat Jul 28 20:52:24 2007, in response to Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway, posted by Edwards! on Sat Jul 28 20:26:03 2007. I don't doubt the role racist policies had in creating many of the ills affecting minority communites today, however, I think equal blame does have to go to the community members themselves.I don't hope for a crime wave. I hope NYC goes down below 500 homicides this year (and it's looking that way). The less crime that happens means the more desireable the city becomes, and helps in it's revitalization. But the fact is violent crime in the US is up 2% and is rising faster this year. The next wave is brewing and every municipality has to brace for it. as for the "CIA" thing, I say prove it. And as for the police, you use a few bad incidents to charaterize a whole group of people who go out daily and risk their lives. I'm sure people in your community don't like them, because some of them happen to be commiting crimes. Maybe their attitude wouldn't be as shitty if people cooperated and started helping instead of "Stop Snitching". All-in-all, I do agree with you that racism is a serious issue, however combating it with a) more racism and b) self-destructive behavior is not the way to go. Hopefully, gentrification could help to create a positive mix of peoples who can help us learn from one another. |
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Re: The LL in the '80s |
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Posted by shiznit1987 on Sat Jul 28 21:06:23 2007, in response to Re: The LL in the '80s, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jul 28 11:33:47 2007. Yeah, but I can't imagine the JJ being any better. I mean, almost every store on Broadway got looted during the Blackout! Not to mention Bed-Stuy being on the other side of the street...... |
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Re: The LL in the '80s |
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Posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Sat Jul 28 21:10:05 2007, in response to Re: The LL in the '80s, posted by Edwards! on Sat Jul 28 20:39:00 2007. How can one "almost" get robbed or mugged? To me, you either got mugged, or you didn't get mugged! :-) |
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Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic) |
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Posted by Eric B on Sat Jul 28 21:16:49 2007, in response to Re: Brooklyn Dodgers (on topic), posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Jul 27 09:59:19 2007. I remember all of the tubes having fluorescents, but then about 20 years ago, they replaced them with the current "bullseye" HID fixtures (not incandescent). They started out as sodiums, and have gone back and forth between that amd mercury or halide. Now, IIRC, two of them are halide, and one still sodium. I don't know if they ever had incandescent, as that would have been before my time. Nw, the Queens Midtown Tunnel has "White Sodiums", which emulate the color of incandescents. |
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Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sun Jul 29 00:54:21 2007, in response to Re: Gates Ave Re: Housing Projects Re: Jane Jacobs Re: Cross Manhattan expressway, posted by shiznit1987 on Sat Jul 28 20:52:24 2007. You can keep your "gentrification"..Those folks that move in here DON'T interact with anyone..and rather run to the subway..than walk. As for the "CIA"..You said it..so You prove it. Also..I don't much care for your attitude...it displays they very same negative typical train of thought I would expect a cop would have that has a downward outlook on the inner city or anyone that differs from his/her point of view. Remember,dude..I LIVE with a cop..who out there doing his job VERY WELL. And as far as people with shitty "tudes" go,I'm not denying that SOME are up to no good..and the police make them uncomfortable...but Im not going to sugarcoat it either with clever soundbites to try to make my point look good like YOUR doing..Im gonna give it to you straight. You are full of shit. You walk in our shoes..live our lives..or sit at our table..THen Just maybe you might be able to identify with what Im saying...rathewr than what you see on your beat, from your squad car or the tel-a-vision set. As for understanding the "other man"..I AM the OTHER MAN[BiRacial.dude]...his blood flows though my veins just as much as the "people of color"..SO I walk Both..but IDENTIFY with "brothers'. So KEEP your advise..we don't need it nor YOU. |
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Re: The LL in the '80s |
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Posted by SMAZ on Sun Jul 29 02:43:01 2007, in response to Re: The LL in the '80s, posted by 5301 Fishbowl on Sat Jul 28 21:10:05 2007. While I don't know the details of Chris' sister near mugging my guess is that she succesfully escaped or beat back the mugger. |
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