|
|
| Fulton Street El Express Service (211516) | |
 |
|
| Home > SubChat | |
[ Post a New Response | Return to the Index ]
|
| (211516) | |
Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by RedbirdR33 on Mon Feb 6 22:34:24 2006 This is a response to early posts about express service on the BRT/BMT Fulton Street El in Brooklyn. The Fulton Street El as built basically ran from Fulton Ferry Terminal in downtwn Brooklyn to Grant Avenue. It was built as a two track line but there was a third track between Hinsdale Street and Pennsylvania Avenue which was primarily used for yard moves from "AB" Yard.Under the Dual Contract reconstruction a third track was added between between Franklin Avenue and Hinsdale Street. Except for Atantic Avenue there were no station built with express platform and Frankin Avenue itself was a two track station. Because of the track layout the third track was not usuable for express service east of Atlantic Avenue. A history of the line by Bernard Linder gives the following details of express service in 1924. Trains starting from Lefferts Avenue or Grant Avenue in the AM Rush ran express on the center track from Atlantic Avenue to Frankin Avenue. In the PM rush trains from Park Row to Lefferts Avenue ran express from Sands Street to Lafayette Avenue to Grand Avenue to Atlantic Avenue. These train ran express on the local tracks between Sands Street and Franklin Avenue. By June 1933 the followinfg changes were noted. AM express stil ran from Atlantic Avenue to Franklin Avenue. PM express from Park Row ran express from Sands Street to Franklin Avenue to Atlantic Avenue. Express beginning at Sands Street ran express only from Franklin Avenue to Atlantic Avenue. PART II Serive east of Grant Avenue. Grant Avenue was the original eastern terminus of the line. The line was extended east under the Dual Contracts to Lefferts Avenue. The extension was built as a three track line but again there were no express platforms. The #13 14 Street-Fulton Street Express began operation on September 23, 1936 between 8 Avenue-14 Street in Manhattan and Lefferts Avenue in Queens. This train ran as a non-stop express (on the local tracks)on the 14 Street Line between Lorimer Street and Myrtle. They also ran non-stop between Hinsdale Street and Hudson Street on the Fulton Street EL portion of the line. Express operation east of Hinsdale Street lasted only until the platforms could be extended to accomodate full length trains of MULTIS as these were the only cars which ever ran in this service. Once the platfrom were lengthened the express made all stops between Myrtle Avenue and Lefferts Avenue. (Question: When did Lefferts Avenue become a Boulevard?) Larry, RedbirdR33 |
|
|
| (211532) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Feb 6 22:50:20 2006, in response to Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by RedbirdR33 on Mon Feb 6 22:34:24 2006. Awesome stuff. Thanks. Some thing I find interesting: why did the BMT not rebuild the whole line west of Atlantic Ave? I'm sure any hopes of connectiong the Fulton El into Dekalb Ave. via Ashland Place was dead by 1925, when the IND route was revealed. But the segment between Atlantic Ave and Lefferts Blvd/Ave didn't require this connection to operate as a subway line, as it's trains could have been re-routed via Broadway or 14th St. after south of Atlantic. |
|
|
| (211563) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by RedbirdR33 on Mon Feb 6 23:57:19 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Feb 6 22:50:20 2006. Chris: There are a couple of aspects of this that need fuller explanation. Why wasn't the third tracking extended all the way. The BRT did indeed order the steel to for the third rail between Brooklyn Bridge and Nostrand Avenue but it was never used. The BRT felt that the Ashland Place Connection should not be built until after the 14 Street Line and the Nassau Street Line were completed. (Nassau St opened in 1931 (+/-). By the time that they got around to thinking about it Dekalb Avenue was already saturated with trains and would have required additional tracks to handle any more.Of interest also is the rebuiling of the Gate Cars into "C" Types and the shaving back of the platforms on the Fulton Street El to accomodate ten foot wide cars. As rebuilt the "C" Types were ten feet wide at platform level which precluded their operation on any of the nine foot wide el lines. Did the BRT intend to operate them into the subway via the Ashland Place Connection? This would seem strange given that by that time (1922(+/-) the operation of wooden cars into the subways with passengers was frowned upon? Larry, RedbirdR33 |
|
|
(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
|
| (211607) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by daDouce Man on Tue Feb 7 02:14:29 2006, in response to Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by RedbirdR33 on Mon Feb 6 22:34:24 2006. "When did Lefferts Avenue become a Boulevard?"Probably in the same time period that eg. Boyd Avenue became 88 Street. Roughly 1915 to 1935 |
|
|
| (211692) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Feb 7 11:31:19 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by RedbirdR33 on Mon Feb 6 23:57:19 2006. Actually I meant east of Atlantic, not west. The section between Atlantic and Lefferts was already connected to one subway line by 1916 and two by 1928. |
|
|
| (211731) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by Eric B on Tue Feb 7 12:29:51 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Feb 6 22:50:20 2006. The Ashland Place connection was really conceived as the only service using what is now the Brighton track to Atlantic Avenue. The Brighton would have continued using the Franklin to connect to the fulton, to get downtown. But somewhere along the way, it was decided that the Brighton would be connected with a new tunnel under Prospect Park. Ashland Pl. then was not as needed as it was before, so fell to the wayside. |
|
|
| (211856) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by David H on Tue Feb 7 15:52:36 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by Eric B on Tue Feb 7 12:29:51 2006. You sure?Wasn't that reserved for the LAFFEYETTE AVENUE subway to BROADWAY? |
|
|
| (211863) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by Tunnel Rat on Tue Feb 7 16:11:08 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by RedbirdR33 on Mon Feb 6 23:57:19 2006. Under NYS law,wooden EL cars were banned from the subways after a certain year[the date escapes me]so the C types could not operate into the subway. |
|
|
| (211873) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Feb 7 16:27:18 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by Tunnel Rat on Tue Feb 7 16:11:08 2006. IIRC the ban took effect in 1916. |
|
|
| (211875) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by RedbirdR33 on Tue Feb 7 16:28:29 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by Tunnel Rat on Tue Feb 7 16:11:08 2006. Under NYS law,wooden EL cars were banned from the subways after a certain year[the date escapes me]so the C types could not operate into the subway.Steve: It would be interesting to see the full text of that law because wooden BU and Q cars continued to operate into the underground IRT Main Street Terminal until 1949. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
|
|
| (211884) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by Tunnel Rat on Tue Feb 7 16:41:05 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by RedbirdR33 on Tue Feb 7 16:28:29 2006. According to old ERA publications,the Q`s&gatecars were allowed into main st.because they had concrete reinforced undercarriages whereas the irt gate cars did not.that`s why they terminated at willets point.I would love to see a photo of a gatecar or Q car at main st.Any out there? |
|
|
| (212384) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by BMT Standard on Wed Feb 8 10:26:42 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by Tunnel Rat on Tue Feb 7 16:41:05 2006. Were there any restrictions on which Manhattan El cars could use the tunnel section of the 6th/9th Ave. El in the Bronx between Sedgewick and Anderson Aves.? |
|
|
| (212424) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by Tunnel Rat on Wed Feb 8 12:30:44 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by BMT Standard on Wed Feb 8 10:26:42 2006. IIRC they had to have ELEVated 3rd rail shoes,if not I,m sure I,ll hear about it. |
|
|
| (212440) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by JOE @ NYCTMG - NYCMTS on Wed Feb 8 13:39:47 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by BMT Standard on Wed Feb 8 10:26:42 2006. Hello "BMT Std" There were NO restrictions on ANY Manhattan (ie: ex-Manhattan Railway Co.) IRT Gate or MUDC cars of any classes (including ex subway Composites) for running thru the Sedgwick - Anderson E. 162nd street tunnel of the 9th Avenue EL. ALL of that equipment had "old elevated style" third rail "drop sled" shoes designed to run only on "elevated style position" 3rd rail (higher and closer to the running ral adjacent to it) The ONLY RESTRICTION was for ANY rolling stock (being specifically steel IRT High-V and Low-V subway cars then) which had the subway type "paddle" thgird rail shoes....which contacted a subway position style 3rd rail which was lower to and fruther from its adjacent running rail. These subway type "paddle" shoes projected too long outboard to clear the very narrow 162nd street tunnel walls and would foul the wall just 1 1/2 past the 3rd rail head. Thats WHY the High-V and later Low-V steel cars that operated on the later POLO GROUNDS Shuttle there from 1949-50 thru 1958, had THEIR own subway paddle shoes CUT BACK so as to reach and make conact only with the exisiting "elevated position" style 3rd rail. THATS WHY dual (parallel) subway and elevated style 3rd rails lasted on the Jerome Line Elevated from approx north of 161st ST Station to Woodlawn and into the Mosholu Yards until at least 1959-early 1960 by which time it was all removed. I rode POLO Line a number of times since 1950, as well as Manhattan 3rd Ave El, and photographed both. Regards - Joe NYCMTS - NYCTMG |
|
|
| (212607) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by EMSR7000 on Wed Feb 8 19:36:29 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by JOE @ NYCTMG - NYCMTS on Wed Feb 8 13:39:47 2006. Joe:1. Forgetting the special equipment for the Polo Grounds shuttle,when the 161 St. St.-Woodlawn section was used by both Manhattan and Low-V equipment, please explain how the standard Low-V shoes did not foul the elevated position third rail. 2. What other lines were simultaneously fitted with elevated and subway position third rail? Paul |
|
|
| (212618) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by rushhoursardine on Wed Feb 8 20:14:00 2006, in response to Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by RedbirdR33 on Mon Feb 6 22:34:24 2006. Larry Redbird: thank you for a highly informative post. We have spoken in the past about being fans of the old BMT (me on the Myrtle from my childhood days, you in general).In many ways, the BMT made maximum use of two-track lines for express or skip-stop service (such as has existed on the Jamaica el for decades until the present J/Z service). If you've seen my several old posts on this topic, I have always been an advocate of maximum use of peak-direction express tracks on numerous three-track els in the city. Many posters have differed, however, and I respect their feedback. In reading the 1939 BMT map service guide on nycsubway.org, however, I have found it to be one of the most rider-conscious schedules I've seen on a subway map. Straight down to the extension of the Franklin Shuttle to Coney Island on summer Sundays, which was always beach day for workingmen and their families after a six-day workweek. Any comments? |
|
|
| (212789) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by JOE @ NYCTMG - NYCMTS on Thu Feb 9 10:27:14 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by EMSR7000 on Wed Feb 8 19:36:29 2006. Hello Paul (EMSR) Steel Subway cars up until at least 1960, on the old BMT and IRT Lines, had a special dual contact "paddle shoe" which unlike present shoes which jut out at an almost straight angle from their wood shoe beams...had an angle in the shoe at the outer end. There were two contact "pad" surfaces on the shoe underside. The inner pad, located on the unerside of the straighter part of the paddle, contacted "elevated style" (closer, higher) 3rd rail. The outer shoe on the slight upward angle, contacted the slighly lower "subway style" covered third rail and ran UNDER the overhead protective coverboard. The same applied on both IRT and BMT steel subway cars. both prior to, and after June 1940 City takeover of the BMT and IRT companies. NOTE 1 -- "Elevated" style 3rd Rail on "IRT" Joint steel subway train and wooden elevated train operated Elevated lines, had NO protective wooden "backboard" (which normally would have protected trackwalkers from brushing against the catwalk facing side of the 3rd rail.) This was BECAUSE the wooden backboard, bracketed itself, to the underside and back side of the "elevated style" third rail with special bolted on clamps, was ONE INCH approx. HIGHER than the top of the third rail head. This dual third rail (and "EL 3rd rail WITHOUT safety backboard) was featured on: (a) Bronx IRT Woodlawn Line "EL", just above the 159th Street tunnel portal, to end of line from approx 1917 thru end of 1959 (b) Bronx IRT White Plains Road Line "EL" from the 150th & Third / Westchester Avenues connection (1902-3) to the 3rd Ave El, and the later 2 block east Bergen /Brook Ave connection (1906) -- to the early, original 180th Street (West Farms) AND Bronx Park Stub, terminals....and dual 3r rails extended northward onto the White Plains Rd. branch built north to 241st Street terminal in the late teens; This allowed IRT wood "EL" trains to run on the Woodlawn Line EL to its terminal and Mosholu shops (from 9th Ave EL) and also on the IRT White Plains Rd. (from 2nd & 3rd Ave Els) line to its terminals and yards...first to 180th st. Yard and original Bronx Park stub and 180th St. terminal AND the later also to 239th ST yards on the White Plains Rd. Line (c) After wooden Manhattan elevated train service ONTO White Plains Rd. line ended via both S.Bronx 3rd Ave El connections (between Approx. 1948, 1950) and those connections removed by, approx, 1950, with no more Elevated train passage to and from the south (Westchester Ave) end of the WH PL Rd line, the "EL" style third rail was all removed BELOW 180th street yards. It remained until about 1958 from 180th street to 239th st. yards for wooden "EL" style work trains and wooden revenue EL train shop moves for the 3rd Ave EL Line remaining connection, via Gun Hill Road, to either yards and shops. Note: Dyre Line wooden EL gate car shuttle trains were retrofitted since 1941 with SUBWAY type paddle 3rd rail shoes ..running from 1941 thru approx 1954.!!! ALL the Q type El cars and many remaining MUDC IRT El cars were run down the WH PL RD line EL (after wood el train service on 3rd Ave El ended 12/15/1956) to 180th street and shunted to the ex NYW&B terminal tracks via existing Dyre Line connections, and abandoned station at 180th St...the Q's going to the New Haven RR 172nd St track connection (as they WERE delived by he NHRR to the 3 Ave El in 1949-50 !!) for the trip south via Hell Gate Bridge to Queens and CI Yards in Brooklyn via NHRR-LIRR-SBK (Parkville) connection...for overhaul for Myrtle Ave EL service in April-June 1958. The MUDC's were ALL scrapped, the last of them by early 1958 !) at 174th St grounds of former Starlite Amusement Park along the Ex-NYW&B embankment, using the former abandoned SB NYW&B Local track with one side of the track rails removed, to derail and roll the cars askew, off of, and over, and down the embankment to the lot below, where they were dragged into rows and burned. Many other MUDC's were auto-trucked there also - both operable and "BO" dead cars with wheels/trucks removed first at 239th St shops. NOTE 2 -- In preparation for IRT steel Steinway subway cars rerplaced wood cars on the Bronx ONLY 3rd Ave El by Jan. 1957, the wooden BACKBOARDS on the "EL' style 3rd rail on the surviving (after 5-12-55 end of Manhattan service below 149th St) BRONX portion of the 3rd Ave EL, were ALL REMOVED on both local tracks (but left on the express track for storage of the "o-o-s" Q types until sent to CI Yds via NHRR-LRR). This was so as to clear the end tips of the subway style "dual contact" paddle 3rd Rail shoes on the steel IRT Steinway subway cars. This arrangement lasted until the line's local tracks were completed retrofitted, (including express track ONLY ABOVE Fordham Rd to Gun Hill Rd segment, for train layup storage) with subway type and position 3rd rails by mid 1958. NOTE 3 -- Queens IRT Flushing AND IRT Astoria Lines (from 1917 thru 1950 - had dual 3rd rail (as described for above Bronx lines) for Steel IRT Steinway subway cars (and after 1948, for new IRT R-12 & 14 cars of 1948-49 delivery and running) and wooden IRT 2nd Ave EL Trains (until May 1942) AND BMT El Car shuttles running from Queenboro Plaza to Flushing and Astoria. The "EL" style 3rd rail (or dual rail feature) did not extend past Queensboro Plaza on the Flushing Line tracks tunnel bound to and from Manhattan, nor did "subway" style 3rd (or the dual feature) extend past Q B Plaza station to and over the 2nd Ave El tracks (have photo proof) on the ( note * ) Queensboro Bridge. In October 1949, Wood El car shuttles (which used both BMT EL gate cars (1918 thru 1944) and BMT EL wooden Q types, 1939 thru Oct.. 1949) ended and ASTORIA line was modified for BMT Steel 10' wide subway cars...and by 1951 all "EL" 3rd rail of the dual setup, was basically gone from both branches. ( * NOTE *) - I have a 1955 photo showing the upper and lower level former IRT 2nd Ave EL tracks from QB Plaza Station, westward to and eastward from the inclining APPROACH to the Queensboro Bridge (to just before the overhead first portal arch of the bridge upper level steelwork)- still active (shiny rails) in use by approx. 1955 period and coming into the former 2nd Ave El upper and lower platform "north" side of the IRT half side of the 2 level, 4 track QB Plaza junction station...AND IT HAS, surprisingly, been retrofitted with ONLY SUBWAY TYPE COVERED 3rd RAIL !! Upper and lower former 2nd Ave EL tracks on the bridge approach show to be merged westward, upgrade, via a single switch, into a single long tail track (using the former Manhattan bound 2nd Ave El trackway) for about an approx. 8 car train length, ending at a bumper just before the overhead bridge portal arch. I can only assume that from May 1942, (end of 2nd Ave El Service) up to and at that late date, IRT R-12,14 and 15 car (and earlier than 1948, Steinway Low-V) trains ran some late night (or rush hour extras) shuttles from Flushing to Queensboro plaza (!!???) or they used the track as a fast turnback (or/and for layups??) from lower (westbound ex-2 Ave EL track) level out and back to upper (eastbound ex-2 Ave EL track) level. This arrangement ended sometime after probably 1955 in that period when the BMT line Queens bound track (via tunnel and upgrade ramp from same) from (and towards) Manhattan to the BMT (northern half side) section of QB Plaza station was shifted physically in alignment - on both upper and lower levels - to the former 2nd Avenue EL route track on both levels. When that was done, the former 2nd Ave EL Line turnback tracks to the bridge were disconnected and abandoned....as seen in many photos taken by 1958, 59, 60, etc and later. The BMT track shifting to the IRT ex-2nd ave El tracks (on both levels), allowed abandonment and 1962 removal of the BMT "northern half" of the Queensboro Plaza Station complex. NOTE 4 -- ALL MANHATTAN ELS and BRONX SEGMENTS (except at and past points where they connected to subway service joint El lines as mentioned and covered indepth above) had EL style 3rd rail complete WITH THE WOOD SAFETY BACKBOARD, throughout. When, in example, steel subway cars WITH PADDLE SHOES were taken onto those "original EL" routes for shops (ie: to 129th or 99th street shops on 3rd Ave EL, or 155th street shop on 9th Ave EL (rarely there) -- they had to, PRIOR to entering onto those lines, have their subway type 3rd rail paddle shoes removed from their shoe beams and be towed..so their paddle shoes would NOT foul the "original EL's" safety backboards. Also truly enforced and firmly prevented heavier steel subway cars from operating in revenue service on lighter built "original Manhattan Els". The reverse (towing) would (in theory, if "ever" in practice but for no practical reason and due to EL CAR subway tunnel roof clearance probems) have to happen and IRT EL cars with EL style drop sled shoes would have to be towed on IRT subway-extension elevated lines having NO "EL" style 3rd rail..as their shoes intact on trucks would not reach subway typoe 3rd rail anyway. The solution to avoid this was having DUAL 3rd rail styles --and EL cars never operated on say, Broadway IRT EL nor IRT Pelham Line EL, and there were no immediate direct track connections from those lines to "original" Els. Also, IRT EL car higher roofs could not clear IRT subway tunnels. Well Paul, this has been a long history - and covers the IRT only. The BMT Division is ANOTHER LONG story - and I am out of time. Hope this informs you and any, all for the IRT Division. Regards - Joe |
|
|
| (212800) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by Bob Andersen on Thu Feb 9 10:56:09 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by JOE @ NYCTMG - NYCMTS on Thu Feb 9 10:27:14 2006. Can you post that 1955 photo? |
|
|
| (212807) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by BMT Standard on Thu Feb 9 11:20:40 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by JOE @ NYCTMG - NYCMTS on Thu Feb 9 10:27:14 2006. I'm not to sure about your facts about Queensboro Plaza station in 1955. When BMT trains were through-routed to Astoria in 1949, they began using the old 2nd Ave. (north) side of the IRT platforms (as they still do today). The BMT half of the station was unused after that, but it wasn't torn down until about 1963. |
|
|
| (213127) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by JOE @ NYCTMG - NYCMTS on Fri Feb 10 05:32:26 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by BMT Standard on Thu Feb 9 11:20:40 2006. Hello BMT Standard Well, you are quite CORRECT...my error was a typo (I had corrected quite a few others first, before hitting POST MESSAGE ! But I missed the "1955" twice which should have read " 1945 " at both places. The photo shows a BMT standard pulling into the eastbound upper level southerly side track of the BMT's NORTH half segment domain of the structure of Queensboro Plaza. Photo was taken from the island platform on the IRT's SOUTH half segment domain of strucure of the joint complex....looking west (to the bridge) along the then truncated former 2nd Ave El track...and showing quite shiny running rails and covered THIRD RAIL of subway position type....and obviously used ONLY for and on the IRT SIDE....heading towards the bridge. Sorry for the typo error...and glad you brought the "question of facts issue" to my attention for historic and print sake. So from June 1942 (2nd Ave service ends) to October 1949, when it was finally abandoned, that track was a tail track for IRT steel subway cars - either as short turn for reverse moves, or/and possibly rush hour Q B Plaza Station to Flushing shuttle extras. If I recall, didnt the IRT R-12 and 14's (maybe R-15's too) have QUEENS PLAZA destination signs on their roll signs ??? I frequently write so much history on Manhattan ELS and mainly 3rd Ave El that " 1955 " , being a keypoint event year for the 3rd Ave El -- and a frequently referred to year-date imbeded in my mind memory..so it was a mental typo error. When I get time, I'll try to dig up the photo and use a free pic host service for a URL to post it...also have a photo from mid 50's taken from same platform side showing the point where BMT track was shifted over to the IRT SIDE BY 1949, at junction point where it meets, crosses over to and uses the old 2nd Ave El trackway into and thru the IRT "EL's side" platform, showing in part, the cut back abandoned portion remains of the former 2nd Ave EL "tail track". Also, nice to note not even a posted "thank you" for my posted efforts on the 3rd rails topic. Regards - Joe |
|
|
| (213212) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by BMT Standard on Fri Feb 10 12:50:49 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by JOE @ NYCTMG - NYCMTS on Fri Feb 10 05:32:26 2006. Joe -Thank you for your informative posts. You're forgiven for the typos. Ed |
|
|
| (213379) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by EMSR7000 on Fri Feb 10 19:28:16 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by JOE @ NYCTMG - NYCMTS on Thu Feb 9 10:27:14 2006. Joe:Thanks for your comprehensive reply. I have a few questions: 1. When a Hi-V/Low-V train was running in a section with both types of third rail, say Jerome Ave., all of the shoes on one side of the train would be contacting the subway third rail, while all of the shoes on the other side would be contacting the elevated third rail? 2. Prior to the cessation of joint elevated car operations, did all of the steel cars have the two part shoes? Even Pelham and Broadway equipment where they were not needed? 3. Your Note 3 intrigues me where you state that the early R-12 and 14 cars had the 2 part shoes. Again, many thanks. Paul |
|
|
| (213550) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by JOE @ NYCTMG - NYCMTS on Sat Feb 11 05:56:42 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by EMSR7000 on Fri Feb 10 19:28:16 2006. Hello Paul Re: Question # 1 -- YES --- shoes on BOTH sides of those IRT steel Low-and-Hi-V subway cars (with subway paddle type shoes on both sides of the car trucks) contacted the dual third rails, one side on tew subway 3rd rail, other side on elevated type 3rd rail. NOTE: there were 3rd rail section breaks (and signs indicating same) for Steel IRT HI-V cars AND most of the wood Elevated car trains, which also were Hi-V mode. There was a very small fleet of 1910-11 built IRT wood EL gate cars that were built NEW as "Low-V Control", many of that class made into MUDC in 1923-4....but the vast majority of IRT EL cars were Hi-V. The section breaks and signs indicating same, were so a Hi-V control consist (with 600 VDC jumper buss cables between each car) would not accidentally "jump" (energize - like the train acting as a jumper cable) an isolated 3rd rail section in event that power was shut off on a, that, section for an emergency or maintenance situation. Re: Question # 2, # 3 - Yes - ALL IRT Steel subway cars had those double contact shoes, Hi and Low-V types, for use anywhere on the system...including the fleet of 50 1939 WF Steinway cars. Also, the R-12, 14 cars had them, and the 15's as for a period (1948 R=12 delivery thru end of El 3rd rail removal about late 1950 on Flushing Line) they ran on same tracks as wooden BMT EL "Q" type shuttle trains to Flushing and Astoria prior to October 1949. Manhattan elevated "EL" type 3rd rail took as long as late 1950 to remove from Flushing line..it was removed from the Astoria line first (also along with cutting back the wooden station platforms 6 inches to clear the 10' wide standards) to facilitate the BMT standards, Triplexes, operation between (past the) Queensboro Plaza Station out to Astoria after late October 1949. Photos exist showing new R-12, 14 cars running on Flushing Line with El style 3rd rail in view and using dual contact paddle shoes, between 1948 and 1950 ! The dual contact 3rd rail shoes for the IRT steel subway cars was a standard setup starting with the 1904 Gibbs and Composite original subway cars which ran joint (from 1906) service with Wood IRT Elevated trains on the West Farms (ie: later called the White Plains Rd Line) from outside the 149th St subway portal (Bronx) - Westchester-Bergen-Brook Avenues interlocking to Bronx Park Terminal and 180th street (then) Terminal (adjacent to the later 1912 opened NYW&B Rway 180th st Station) and yards. Steel IRT subway cars gradually had all Dual contact paddle shoes removed between 1958 thru approx 1960 (except on the oldest pre war [mainly Hi-V] steel cars scheduled for scrap in that period) as they wore out, and replaced by a newer steel "subway 3rd rail only" type single-contact-pad paddle shoe with a basically straight profile from shoe beam attachment location to the end tip of the shoe. The Manhattan and specifically, BRONX portion of the entire 3rd Avenue EL Line, NEVER had dual (or subway style) 3rd rail...as steel cars could not operate on that line because it was equipped throughut with "Manhattan" EL style 3rd rail WITH the wood safety backboard (1 1/2" higher than the EL type 3rd rail head) and their subway paddle shoe ends would have fouled (tried to ride atop of or damage) the protective wooden back board. Only by, after mid 1958 did the surviving Bronx only portion of the 3rd Ave. El finally get "EL" style 3rd rail removed and replaced by top coverboard subway position type 3rd rail - both local tracks only and the ex-express center "layup use only" track above Fordham Rd. station on the Webster Ave. section. The express track thru Fordham Rd. Station and BELOW to 152nd street (where it ended after 1956) was decommissioned and EL style 3rd rail removed along with all (as un-needed) switch tracks to local tracks. Running rails and any steel guard rails were slowly removed as scrap in partial segments, haphazzardly, in the period from 1960-1 thru 1973 Regards -Joe |
|
|
| (213906) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by EMSR7000 on Sat Feb 11 21:16:43 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by JOE @ NYCTMG - NYCMTS on Sat Feb 11 05:56:42 2006. Joe:Thanks again. Paul |
|
|
| (214738) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Mon Feb 13 04:11:31 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by JOE @ NYCTMG - NYCMTS on Sat Feb 11 05:56:42 2006. Just some quick observations. I was under the impression the the Lo-V Manhattan el cars were built as Hi-Vs and subsequently converted to Lo-V sometime around their conversion to MUDC. Most of the old time el men I spoke to insisted that all the Manhattan cars were Hi-V despite documentation to the contrary. Regardless of which is the case, did the Lo-V Manhattan cars have automatic acceleration as on the flivvers and standard Lo-V subway cars or were they manual acceleration as on the Hi-Vs thereby causing the confusion among the El men I spoke to? |
|
|
| (214871) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by JOE @ NYCTMG - NYCMTS on Mon Feb 13 11:02:56 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by randyo on Mon Feb 13 04:11:31 2006. Hello Randyo The small class of LOW-V Control wood EL cars were built BRAND NEW at the carbuilders' factory as Gate Cars.....(and NOT converted from Hi-V later) and were later converted in 1923-4 to MUDC, and did not have, require, nor use the thick 600 VDC jumper cables between the cars but did have MUDC and MU Control cables between the cars as they had (as all wood IRT EL Gate and MUDC cars did) manual "link and pin" Van Dorn couplers with no "electric portion faciities" on the coupler head / face. The controller handle control was automatic just as on similar application IRT Low-V steel subway cars. They "EL" Low-V units) could NOT "Control MU" with their Hi-V brethern but COULD "Air-Iron" couple-mate with their Hi-V brethern for "shop or disabled train" moves as towed unpowered trailing units. The "Trailer" cars of that small class of EL Low-V ars also had their own truck mounted 3rd rail shoes for receiving 600VDC from the 3rd rail for lighting and heating and door motor (for MUDC cars) circuits (as did steel Low-V subway cars) None of the Low-V class IRT EL Gate or IRT EL MUDC cars have survived nor been saved, and only a handful of IRT (or BMT-BRT) High-V class EL Gate cars have survived and been saved at various operating museums....as most of us know. Regards - Joe NYCTMG-NYCMTS |
|
|
| (215258) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Mon Feb 13 18:04:11 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by JOE @ NYCTMG - NYCMTS on Mon Feb 13 11:02:56 2006. Since you seem to be very familiar with these Lo-V Manhattan cars, I have few questions if you don't mind. Was the controller handle a large brass C-6 type as on the Hi-Vs and flivvers or the smaller type as founnd on the standard steel Lo-Vs? The only reason I am asking these questions is that during my TA career, I worked with several "el men" some of whom actually started with the IRT Co. before city takeover and whenever I mentioned the Lo-V el cars, they insisted that the only Lo-V cars on the els were the composites (or "coppersides" as they preferred to call them) and everything else on the el was Hi-V. Are there any photos of the M/M cabs and controls in these cars? By the way, one of these el men told me that a train of MUDCs was equipped with electro-pneumatic brakes (whether AMUE or AMCE he didn't say). Have you any information on this? Thank yo in advance for any information you may be able to provide, and I would imagine that I am not the only railfan who would be interested in this information. |
|
|
| (215481) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Feb 13 23:10:22 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by JOE @ NYCTMG - NYCMTS on Thu Feb 9 10:27:14 2006. My question has always been why didn't the IRT have the Manhattan Elsconvert to subway type third rail when Manhattan converted from Forney locomotives to electric? Would have saved a lot of time and money if both systems had shared one type of third rail. |
|
|
| (215521) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by JOE @ NYCTMG - NYCMTS on Tue Feb 14 05:54:52 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Feb 13 23:10:22 2006. Hello El Keeper Answer: (re: why no El to subway style 3rd rails conversions for Manhattan EL's) -- For the SAME reason the IRT never installed mainline signals and blocks on the local tracks of the 2, 3 6 9 Av. Els (except at ALL interlockings, ALL sharp, blind curves, and on express tracks for dual direction operation) -- from 1900 to June 1940... (a) MONEY $$$$ - or lack of it due the being stuck with the 5 cent fare from 1900 (or there about) thru June 1940, when City of NY bought the IRT and BMT systems - then both in virtual bankruptcy...! (b) Mayor Laguardia in the 1930's wanted the EL's in Manhattan (and ALL streetcars also) GONE by June 1960 by his enacted executive order...so no improvements or perservation maintenance (except as absolutely necessary and rudementary for maintaing day to day operations and safety priorites) were deemed necessary by the IRT to waste scarce revenue money on.... (c) The BMT had the same problem and conditions as A & B for their old "victorian era" EL's that the Little Flower, as La G was called, also wanted removed ASAP. (d) The costs to the IRT would have been to replace ALL 3rd Rail with new installations and /or reposition existing 3rd rail and install coverboards---- as well as outfit ALL the majority High-V Motor El cars, and ALL of the small class of Low-V Motor AND Trailer EL cars, with purchased brand NEW, subway type 3rd rail shoes...and labor expense for all involved in same for thousands of EL cars. For what gain in operation value, cost savings, or revenue producing gains !!?? (e) Tho wood EL car trains could run on subway line "EL" extensions (in Bronx, Queens, ie;), heavier STEEL IRT subway trains could not operate in revenue servce on any Manhattan Els due to structural weight restrictions on the Manhattan Els. I guess you now basically get the idea !! Regards - Joe Joseph Frank NYCTMG - NYCMTS |
|
|
| (215530) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by JOE @ NYCTMG - NYCMTS on Tue Feb 14 07:46:39 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by randyo on Mon Feb 13 18:04:11 2006. Hello randyo Lets see now, say your El men who were with the IRT as you say, a few years (lets say, 1935) BEFORE the June 1940 City of NY takeover, were at least 30 years old (or older!) back then in 1935, and had to work their way UP to become motormen as was the rule..so they would have been 20, 25 years old when they started with the IRT proportionately years before 1935. Well, by 1975 (from 1935) they would be 70 (or older) years old and already retired by the NYCTA by then. SO I am confused as to when your time, career, with the TA was, and if it was even AFTER 1975, these "el" men would be even more advanced ages and long out of the TA...and would be 100 + by 2006 today The last Manhattan type wooden "EL" trains ran til mid Dec. 1956 in the Bronx, -- 50 years ago to TODAY - and a 30 (or older) year old El motorman then in 1956 would be 80 years old in 2006 today...but you did say your sources were on the "IRT" job BEFORE City Takeover in June 1940. So I am somewhat confued by timelines here vs: ages of vs: memories of these men That aside, they seem to be correct on most facts but missing some documented company info on others. According to Manhattan Railway Co Div. IRT roster records, the following IRT EL Gate cars (all later made MUDC) were fitted with Low-V Controls Cars 1660-1671 - MOTOR CARS - built by Jewett 1910 Cars 1706-1711 - TRAILER " - " by St Louis 1911 Cars 1724-1752 - TRAILER " - built by Wason 1911 Cars 1753-1761 - MOTOR CARS - built by Jewett 1911 Cars 1763-1792 - MOTOR CARS - built by Jewett 1911 Cars 1703-1809 - MOTOR CARS - " by Cincinnatti 1911 Cars 1811-1812 - MOTOR CARS - " by Cincinnatti 1911 The controller handles were the old EL type, style design as used on the El Car HI-V Coontrol stands, but the controller cabinetry and under-car contained Low-V control apparatus and circuitry. The Trailer cars listed above all had 3rd rail shoes, (which Hi-V trailers DID NOT) and of course I have a few photos of Low-V El trains (MUDC's) on the Manhattan 3rd Ave El taken in early, mid 50's. All these cars (and all other EL MUDC's) were burned and metal-scrapped by early 1958 latest, all at the ex-Starlight Amusement Park grounds along the Bronx River around 172nd-174th street Bronx. Your "EL Men" were correct on the COMPOSITES ! They WERE converted in 1915-16 to brand new Low-V contol systems and controllers, from their original Hi-V equipment and controllers as installed new in them in 1900-1902. Their H-V controllers, apparatus and MOTOR-TRAIL TRUCKS were installed by the IRT into brand new steel subway Hi-V car body shells built in 1915. And the IRT shops fabricated special lihtweight modified maximum-traction style trucks under the Composite Cars for El use...these trucks were all motor trucks for going to service on Manhattan EL lines in express-only service - later placed under BMT /IRT Q Type el cars in 1949-50. You mentioned that when you speke to these "EL" men about "EL" Low-V's (was that in the past day or so in response, regards to this present topic ongoing? And if so, are these guys in their mid 80's or 90's or older, as pre-1940 IRT employment would almost make them !!! Again, I am incredulous over this ! And somewhat confused as to ages vs: dedcades timelines !! Regards - Joe |
|
|
| (215741) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Tue Feb 14 17:05:09 2006, in response to Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by RedbirdR33 on Mon Feb 6 22:34:24 2006. Cool, thanks! :) |
|
|
| (215813) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 14 19:48:50 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by JOE @ NYCTMG - NYCMTS on Tue Feb 14 07:46:39 2006. To clarify, I started working for NYCTA in 1966, first on the BMT and ultimately on the IRT. As late as 1976, when I went into scheduling, we had an ATD who had started working on the 2 Av el as a C/R in 1938. Starting at age 21 would have meant that he would have been born in in 1917 and when he retired in 1977, that would make him only 60 years old. There was one other IRT Co man who retired from the sched office just before I went in and by coincidence, he too was a 2 Av man. Most of the el men I knew were of course city hirees but I had the good fortune to work with some who did predate unification. Interestingly enough, when I started on the BMT divison, there were still quite a few pre city hirees among my co workers including a M/M who was a member of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and not TWU. Back to the IRT. The fact that these cars had a controller that was "Hi-V" in appearance seems to account for the confusion among these el men. With the possible exception of the flivvers, most IRT men I came across seemed to think that any car with a controller handle made of brass and the deadman's button in the middle of the knob was a Hi-V. Thank you again for your information. |
|
|
| (215816) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 14 20:01:43 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by daDouce Man on Tue Feb 7 02:14:29 2006. If you take a look at the history of the dual contract lines, you'll notice that many of the streets we now refer to as "boulevards" were originally avenues. The ones that to come to mind right now are: Ditmars Blvd, Astoria Blvd, Junction Blvd, and of course, Lefferts Blvd. All of these streets were designated as aves when the lines they are on were originally built. Why the BMT insisted on leaving Lefferts as "Ave" on the station signs and train signe even when the Multis were ordered, I haven't a clue. What I do recall is that on the A Line, the train service signs for new service originally read "Trains to Lefferts Ave." and the word "Ave" was covered over with a paste on sign reading "Blvd" The reason that I noticed this was that at Euclid Ave, the typeface on the paste on was slightly different from the rest of the sign. |
|
|
| (215820) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by RedbirdR33 on Tue Feb 14 20:20:40 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by JOE @ NYCTMG - NYCMTS on Tue Feb 14 07:46:39 2006. Hi Joe: I've enjoyed reading your recent posts about the IRT especially the one about the third rail shoes.Would you have any information about Trailer car 1718 which was built by Wason in 1911. Apparently she was converted to MUDC in 1923 or 24 but was reconverted back to a Gate Car in 1927. Since the IRT was so frugal with money it seems strange that they would convert the car twice. There was certainly no shortage of regular Gate cars at the time. Its nice to see someone finally emphasize that there was a difference in the MUDC cars between Hi-V's and Lo-V's. The Lo-V MUDC's outlasted their Hi-V brethern. It is reported that the last train of MUDC's ran on 12/15/56 with cars 1795,1793,1754,1778,1761 and 1780. Another point that you brought out was that a number of the Gate Cars were built as such with electric traction. All too often the literature on the subject conveys the idea that they were all converted from steam coaches. Best Wishes, Larry, RedbirdR33 |
|
|
| (215833) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Tue Feb 14 21:57:19 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by JOE @ NYCTMG - NYCMTS on Tue Feb 14 05:54:52 2006. (b) Mayor Laguardia in the 1930's wanted the EL's in Manhattan (and ALL streetcars also) GONE by June 1960 by his enacted executive order...so no improvements or perservation maintenance (except as absolutely necessary and rudementary for maintaing day to day operations and safety priorites) were deemed necessary by the IRT to waste scarce revenue money on....Is that the reason why the Bronx section of the 3rd Ave el was in bad shape by the 1970's? The city must have been really cheap! |
|
|
| (215858) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Feb 14 23:10:26 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by JOE @ NYCTMG - NYCMTS on Tue Feb 14 05:54:52 2006. Let me rephrase the question, Joe. I already knew most of what you wrote. In 1900, the IRT started talks with the Manhattan Elevated,which resulted in the leasing of the latter to the former, on April 1st, 1903. What I always wondered was why the Manhattan Elevated didn't consider subway type third rail to begin with, when it contracted with General Electric and Westinghouse to electrify its equipment and structures on May 1st, 1901. It was already in talks with the new Interborough. I think both companies knew from the onset that they couldn't exist separate from each other. Perhaps, if the IRT had pressed the issue, there would have been one subway type third rail for all routes. That was my question, Joe! |
|
|
| (215862) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by daDouce Man on Tue Feb 14 23:20:13 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by randyo on Tue Feb 14 20:01:43 2006. I think NYC allowed both old and new names in Queens to be used for the sake of convience. There would have been alot of mass confusion if all names were abruptly changed overnight after 1915. After 20+ years there were slight changes made to make the conversion easier. The new names were stressed over the old and so it continued.In Jackson Heights along 82 Street between 37 and 35 Avenues there are some apartment buildings that have both old and new addresses. For the longest time I couldn't figure out why the signs had 25 Street. That was until I found out about the numbering system. I guess even to this day the process is still on-going. It's probably no big deal that 69 St on the 7 is still refered to as Fisk Avenue. If Fisk was elimated completely from station signage 10 years from now, no one would really notice. |
|
|
| (215951) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Feb 15 10:36:37 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by daDouce Man on Tue Feb 7 02:14:29 2006. Long after. The street names received numbers at almost the same time the stations opened (late 1915), but Lefferts Ave. survived into the 1930's. That's why the Jamaica line's stations only have numbers, not names. |
|
|
| (215959) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Feb 15 10:54:51 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Tue Feb 14 21:57:19 2006. That, and the Myrtle and the Culver lines. You don't upgrade what you want to get rid of (it may attract more riders who would object to service being abandoned). The MTA tried the same proccess with the Franklin Shuttle in the 1980's and failed. |
|
|
| (215979) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by JOE @ NYCTMG - NYCMTS on Wed Feb 15 11:54:09 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Feb 14 23:10:26 2006. Hello ELkeeper It ccould have also been due to Chicago (and Frank Sprague) being FIRST to electrify their EL system -- as in NYC, the Manhattan Raiwaly Co. experimented with '"non MU" electrio operation (one with a center 3rd rail and a small electric locomotive to replace steam Forneys)....and were not overly impressed with the initial early experiments, tests. The Chicago system took a gamble on Frank SPRAGUE'S brand new MU system, which featured the (what was later to become) "original "EL" style, position, 3rd rail and drop sled design pickup shoes. The Manhattan Railway Company system, after seeing the success of the first ever Frank Sprague MU Electric Train application in Chicago, initially adapted that system format in 1900-1 for their EL's electrification conversion before the IRT later leased the Manhattan Railway Co., elevated lines for 999 Yes, 9 9 9 !) years. The IRT and Manhattan Railway Co., both knew that the heavier new steel subway cars would be too heavy for Manhattan Island "original" 1870-80's EL structures, and there would be no reason to run wooden EL trains, with their 1' higher roofs, into the original first subway (or later extensions) which cleared the lower Composite and Gibbs, Deck Roof style cars But you make a very good point Regards - Joe |
|
|
| (216240) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by ntrainride on Wed Feb 15 23:33:00 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by rushhoursardine on Wed Feb 8 20:14:00 2006. Good point about the BMT scheduling. Here are three examples of the exemplary service from 19241. During Winter months the Franklin Avenue line went all the way to Kings Hwy between 9 a.m. to 4 p.m. In the summer, it went down to C.I. on the express tracks. 2. From 5:04 to 6:09 p.m. Canarsie Line trains ran express from Essex Street to Eastern Parkway. 3. From 5:00 to 6:22 p.m. Jamaica line trains make no stops between Canal Street and Eastern Parkway. That Broadway El was really cookin' back then! Add the Myrtle Avenue line running non-stop between Central Avenue and Essex Street in the a.m. rush and between Bowery and Myrtle Avenue in the p.m. rush. Broadway El must have had the biggest variety of train services on an el line. I was amazed to read that West End and Sea Beach trains to Brooklyn in the p.m. rush and on Saturday afternoons stopped at Canal Street "only to take on passengers in the rear cars, but do not discharge passengers." Yep, the B.M.T. was a railroad. |
|
|
| (216253) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Feb 15 23:56:04 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by ntrainride on Wed Feb 15 23:33:00 2006. 2. From 5:04 to 6:09 p.m. Canarsie Line trains ran express from Essex Street to Eastern Parkway. What ran local? I always assumed the Canarsie line ran local on Broadway always. |
|
|
| (216267) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by ntrainride on Thu Feb 16 00:20:22 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Feb 15 23:56:04 2006. Well, the Canarsie had "...additional local service from Atlantic Avenue and Eastern Parkway during rush hours." From what I read on the 1924 map, the only other local service along Broadway during the height of the rush hours was Lexington Avenue line trains.What does that make, five or six different routes using Broadway up to at least Myrtle Ave? Got this info from http://thejoekorner.quuxuum.org/bmtrulebook/5bmtmgd2.gif |
|
|
| (216269) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Feb 16 00:23:42 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by ntrainride on Thu Feb 16 00:20:22 2006. What does that make, five or six different routes using Broadway up to at least Myrtle Ave? Let's see: Canarsie Express Broadway Local Jamaica Express Lexington Ave Local That's four. Still, with an at-grade crossing at Lexington Ave, this is a very "tight" operation. I'd like to see what headways these lines ran at. |
|
|
| (216272) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by ntrainride on Thu Feb 16 00:27:40 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Feb 16 00:23:42 2006. Okay. But I still count five. You forgot the Myrtle Avenue express trains. |
|
|
| (216295) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 16 03:27:59 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by ntrainride on Thu Feb 16 00:27:40 2006. But once the Lex Av trains left B'way at Gates Av that left a space for the Myrtle Av trains thus there were never more than 4 services operating on B'way at any one time. |
|
|
| (216300) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by JOE @ NYCTMG - NYCMTS on Thu Feb 16 04:41:46 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by randyo on Tue Feb 14 19:48:50 2006. Hello randyo Thanks for that concise explanation....pretty much explains it. You were, as I feel, quite fortunate to have worked (started) with the NYCTA (in 1966) in the tail end of the good but waning years of the pre war EL (wood BMT Q types only) and subway equipment and in a time when the old IRT and BMT "feel and look" was still much prevalent. Those were real "transit men" of the old school and era still in the system then. My father worked the 3rd Ave El (and other Manhattan Div. ELs, but mainly 3rd) in the mid-late 1930's and I myself many years later got to know a few of old timers (motormen, as they were then called and a few conductors) on the 3rd Ave (Manhattan, Bronx) El and IRT subway thru the years from the early-mid 50's thru late 60's...as well as a few retired guys back then. It would have been great if we could have transcribed all their conversations about transit and their job, experiences, in "their times" on the job.....a sort of history lost to, but, in our own memories of hearing them. Again, thanks for sharing those (your) interesting transit timeline and memories ! Regards ! - Joe |
|
|
| (216468) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by BMT Standard on Thu Feb 16 13:19:29 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by JOE @ NYCTMG - NYCMTS on Wed Feb 15 11:54:09 2006. The Chicago L still uses the "original EL style position 3rd rail and drops sled design pickup shoes" on all lines (with occasional harassment from the media about unsafe uncovered third rails). |
|
|
| (216706) | |
Re: Fulton Street El Express Service |
|
|
Posted by ntrainride on Thu Feb 16 22:51:46 2006, in response to Re: Fulton Street El Express Service, posted by randyo on Thu Feb 16 03:27:59 2006. True. Still quite a feat. Broadway was definitely the "mainline" of the B.M.T., back then. |
|
|
