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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Feb 8 16:21:58 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by randyo on Fri Feb 7 18:53:27 2020. The IND express station at Broadway-East New York (B'way Jct, now) also required the razing of several homes and buildings along Truxton and Conway Sts in 1939. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Feb 9 01:06:15 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Feb 8 16:21:58 2020. Chances are if you research enough you can probably find quite a long list of demolitions that took place in the construction of the IND. If the lines that were intended to use the S 4 St station shell were built, it looks like a number of buildings east of Union Av would have had to be torn down since S 4 St ends at Union Ave. It wouldn’t surprise me if the buildings in the path of the Schermerhorn St line would have needed to be demolished if the subway were to have continued west of Court St towards Manhattan. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 11 10:07:55 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by randyo on Sun Feb 9 01:06:15 2020. Wasn't the IND deep tunneled in most places? Why would demolition be necessary in those cases other than for a station entrance perhaps? |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Feb 11 12:58:14 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Feb 11 10:07:55 2020. It absolutely was not. It was mostly cut and cover just like the IRT and BMT. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Feb 11 13:43:17 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Feb 11 12:58:14 2020. Correct. My late father described CPW being torn up to build the four track tunnel. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Feb 11 14:00:18 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Feb 7 19:51:01 2020. And here's a GREAT thing- when they built the Fulton Center, the A/C station was renamed "Fulton" from Broadway-Nassau- and they found authentic looking IND tiles for the job. If you haven't seen it, I'm telling you it looks ORIGINAL.NOT like the cheapo "IND-ish" tiles at Chambers, Canal, 42 Street, 59th, Queens Plaza and Roosevelt. Finally, I'd forgotten that the J/Z Fulton stop had an IND look, but now I remember- I think they even abbreviated it to "FULT'N" |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Feb 11 14:02:24 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Feb 7 15:47:47 2020. None. If someone other than Moses had built the VZ it MAY (I repeat, MAY) have been built to handle cars, semis, pedestrians, and trains. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Feb 11 14:07:31 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by randyo on Fri Feb 7 18:40:06 2020. I'll look it up on You Tube. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Feb 11 14:12:45 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by randyo on Fri Feb 7 18:40:06 2020. Ok, I just watched the You Tube video. Thanks. Makes me glad my Dad got the hell outta there. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Feb 11 14:19:22 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Feb 11 14:02:24 2020. It was built to handle pedestrians. They just never installed the walkways. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 11 17:12:05 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Feb 11 14:02:24 2020. According to a slide show presented to my 8th grade class in 1958, the Narrows Bridge (as it was then planned to be called) was to have had rapid transit on the lower level as was the lower level of the GWB. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 11 17:14:00 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Feb 11 14:12:45 2020. I’ve been trying to get the lyrics to that song since I had a bit of trouble understanding the Scottish accents, but the song is apparently under copyright to one of the group members so I cant download them. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue Feb 11 20:33:18 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Feb 11 14:19:22 2020. That would have been some walk. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Feb 12 00:14:29 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by randyo on Tue Feb 11 17:12:05 2020. Were they really still thinking about putting trains on the GWB lower level four years before it opened to vehicular traffic only? I'd think plans would be pretty firm by that point, but I don't know. The slideshow might have been out of date when it was shown to you. |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Wed Feb 12 01:03:44 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue Feb 11 20:33:18 2020. They're going to install the walkways soon right? I remember seeing a press release or something about it. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Feb 12 01:37:26 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Feb 12 00:14:29 2020. Actually, there were plans for rapid transit across the GWB long before the slideshow and at one point there were provisions built into the IND N/O 168 St for such a service although I believe most, if not all traces of it were destroyed during the construction of the Manhattan portion of the Cross Bx Expwy. |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Wed Feb 12 01:38:35 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Feb 12 00:14:29 2020. Why not |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by jailhousedoc on Wed Feb 12 02:40:06 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Feb 7 18:44:47 2020. a subway tunnel under the Narrows connecting Staten Island and Brooklyn would be ideal - with a parallel freight railroad only tunnel also. Would that someone negotiate with Norfolk Southern and CSX to build them so that a cross harbor transit line could be achieved - a pipe dream, but so very necessary. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Feb 12 08:28:17 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by N6 Limited on Wed Feb 12 01:03:44 2020. With the HOV lane in place, I can't see how walkways would fit on the upper level. Maybe with the planned lower-deck replacement, they can figure soemthing out. Having vertigo/Anxiety, it's a walk I won't be taking LOL. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Feb 12 08:31:45 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by randyo on Tue Feb 11 17:12:05 2020. I knew the GWB was intended to carry transit on a lower level. As for the VZ, I'll take your word they told you that.But my point wasn't really about what potentials were bandied about, but some posters are saying that the VZ can't carry transit because it wasn't built to. That's of course true. My point was that if the "powers that were" wanted it to carry transit, the technology existed to build it to do so. Basically, a bigger version of the Willy B or Manny B. |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Feb 12 08:36:06 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by randyo on Tue Feb 11 17:14:00 2020. That's funny. Growing up, most of my friends, and even the future Mrs. Main had a lot of trouble understanding Dad (she does now - but her mother does not).I, of course, had no trouble understanding Dad- and no trouble understanding the song! |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Feb 12 09:34:31 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Feb 7 18:44:47 2020. I don't think trains could negotiate the grades on the VZ Bridge. The bridge roadway is a distinct arc, rather than being flat. The only way it could be done would be to build an addition to the bridge that would be a chord of the arc, suspended from the existing bridge, and run the trains on that. But that is where weight, of the chord structure plus trains running on it, could be a problem. Light rail vehicles might be able to run on the current arc-shaped bridge roadway. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Feb 12 09:43:33 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by randyo on Wed Feb 12 01:37:26 2020. there were plans for rapid transit across the GWB long before the slideshowI know that. The question is whether those plans were still being considered in 1958. I expect they would have been abandoned by then. The lower level opened to cars (and trucks and buses, etc.) in 1962. How long did it take to construct? Once it was under construction, weren't the plans on what it would connect to fixed? |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by MorningsideHeightsM100 on Wed Feb 12 10:54:41 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri Feb 7 20:45:09 2020. Isn't there a restrictive height limit imposed on most trucks on the VNB also? |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 12 10:55:03 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by MorningsideHeightsM100 on Wed Feb 12 10:54:41 2020. No. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 12 11:02:12 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri Feb 7 20:45:09 2020. I-287 is the "NYC Beltway", so it makes sense that it be used as a bypass. But it does add mileage to the route. At certain times, it may well be faster to stay on I-95.While the TZB toll is less than the GWB toll, taking the GWB takes you through the New Rochelle toll on I-95. Also, going northbound/eastbound, there is presently no VNB toll (this will change soon). But traffic taking the VNB contiuning to New England is essentially forced to pay the toll for the Triborough, Whitestone, or Throgs Neck. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Feb 12 11:16:44 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Feb 11 14:00:18 2020. Yes, the FULTON lettering at the former Broadway-Nassau station looks authentic. So does the JUNCTION lettering at the former Broadway-East New York, IIRC (the BROADWAY lettering there IS original).Another station that does NOT have original-looking lettering is 7th Ave./53rd St. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Wed Feb 12 11:26:19 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Feb 12 09:34:31 2020. All suspension bridges have an arc. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 12 12:13:48 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by jailhousedoc on Fri Feb 7 07:36:08 2020. I ate at a restaurant the other day literally 100 feet from the Long Island Railroad and you couldn't hear a sound as the train passed or stopped. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by MorningsideHeightsM100 on Wed Feb 12 13:19:04 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Feb 12 11:16:44 2020. Or Metropolitan/Union on the G.And as a side note, the ">-TO CROSSTOWN LOCAL->" at the transfer tunnel/stairway from Lorimer St. on the L, too. Horrible job trying to "replicate" the tiles. |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Feb 12 13:53:01 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Feb 12 11:16:44 2020. Forgot about 7th/53rd. Well, from what I understand, that reno is falling apart so quickly they may have to re-do it. Hopefully this time with a better look and quality.(I know of no ACTUAL plan to re-renovate the station. I was speaking figuratively/hopefully) |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Feb 12 13:55:10 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri Feb 7 20:30:39 2020. I occasionally encountered pre-1965 silver quarters until the late 1980s or so. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Feb 12 15:55:00 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Feb 12 09:43:33 2020. I imagine the plans were still under consideration in 1958 since the slide show was relatively new at the time. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Feb 12 16:08:22 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Feb 12 08:31:45 2020. According to the narrative on that slide show, the Narrows Bridge as it was planned to be called at the time was to have been a joint project of and jointly administered by the PA and the TBTA. Of course it ended up being a total TBTA project. |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Feb 12 16:15:06 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Feb 12 08:36:06 2020. That would probably be because you got used to your father’s accent which made it easier to understand most Scottish conversations as well as the ballads. While I do sing Irish ballads and the occasional Scottish ones as well, my Irish ancestry goes back as far as I can determine to before the USA as an independent country was even founded and i acquired a strange sort of Amerirish accent from the old time Irish M/M I used to hang out with as well as the Irish bartenders I my in my early days of imbibing. I didn’t have too much of an association with Scotsmen till I moved to Bay Ridge Bkln which had at one point as much of a Scottish immigrant population as Irish. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Feb 12 16:35:16 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Feb 12 11:16:44 2020. Not all station rehabs are exact duplicates of the originals. The express stations on the 4 Av Line in Bkln originally had a distinct tile pattern of alternating rows of large square and small rectangular tiles in a horizontal pattern. While DeKalb and 36 were rehabbed that way, Pacific St (now Barclay) was redone in a pattern of all square tiles like the exp stations on the Bway Subway in Manhattan. The tiles on the IND at stations like 59 St and 42/8 also had certain design features added that were not part of the original design. Bway/Laf wasn’t even redone in the correct shade of blue. |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Feb 12 16:37:47 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Feb 12 13:55:10 2020. bout a year or so ago, I received a pre 1965 all silver quarter as change at a local bar. When I saw it, I thought it looked a little different from my other change. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 12 19:52:27 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Feb 7 15:54:41 2020. Actually the clearances are only too low on the outer lanes. Buses can fit in the center lanes where the arch is at its highest. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Feb 12 19:57:34 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Catfish 44 on Wed Feb 12 11:26:19 2020. Except the GWB |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 12 20:25:26 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 12 19:52:27 2020. And buses can fit in all lanes south of Merrick Road. |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Feb 12 20:54:34 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Feb 12 19:57:34 2020. I think that has an arc too, but it isn't nearly as noticeable because the approaches start pretty high up. I walked across it once and I do recall being a bit winded until I got to the middle. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Feb 12 20:56:17 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by randyo on Wed Feb 12 16:15:06 2020. Yes- all kids understand their parents- even when they pretend not to, LOL |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Feb 12 21:00:51 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Feb 12 19:52:27 2020. It depends on the particular bus and the particular bridge. I wouldn't bet that every parkway arch has even a 12' clearance at the center. A few of them are quite low, especially on the sides. In some cases, four lanes pass under the arch, so the bus may not be able to travel exactly under the center without straddling lanes. So if any bus drivers are reading, please don't do anything stupid. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Wed Feb 12 21:09:14 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Feb 12 09:34:31 2020. I recall reading that for ordinary trains to operate over the Verrazano the Brooklyn approach would have to be more than a mile long. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Wed Feb 12 23:26:11 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Feb 12 19:57:34 2020. Of course the GW has one. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by jailhousedoc on Thu Feb 13 00:22:05 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Feb 12 09:34:31 2020. Placing trains on suspension bridges might have been acceptable in the past, but I would not do that now - the Manhattan and Williamsburg bridges would make very large targets for some terrorists to fly a hijacked aircraft into - and the resulting service disruptions would take decades to resolve. I am all in favor of removing the subways from those bridges and replacing them with tunnels - expensive, to be sure, but what else can be done ? |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Feb 13 11:45:07 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by jailhousedoc on Thu Feb 13 00:22:05 2020. I think if you flew a big jet into one of the towers, the tower would probably incur relatively minor damage. The WTC was built flimsy. Bridge towers are not.A big jet might destroy a main supporting cable, I suppose. Besides, have you noticed that airplanes don't get hijacked since they made the cockpit inaccessible to passengers and crew? |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Feb 13 11:54:14 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by AlM on Thu Feb 13 11:45:07 2020. If you flew a jet into a bridge tower it would incur relatively minor damage?The WTC was built flimsy? I do not agree with those assessments. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Thu Feb 13 12:46:49 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Feb 8 15:11:44 2020. Yep, NWP operated these behemoths, which would later head south to Pacific Electric during WW II. They ended up closing out the last PE rail service in 1961. So if say BART decided to cross the GGB, probably not an issue. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 13 13:01:25 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 7 13:43:55 2020. You also have to remember the time these roads were made or designed. Freight Railroads still handled much freight. The roads were built to be aesthetiically pleasing and for recreational traffic. Back then, things were made to look pretty, hence the stone attractive bridges, and the landscape.People are looking at these roads through the eyes of people in the post 1960's eyes, rather than than when they were actually built. |
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