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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Feb 6 22:16:24 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Feb 6 21:46:24 2020. The Dual Contract extensions of the Bway and Fulton St Els into Jamaica and Ozone Park doomed local service on the LIRR's Atlantic Ave Line.The nickel fare was the cheaper currency of Gresham's Law. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Feb 6 22:49:52 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by randyo on Thu Feb 6 18:38:25 2020. I wonder what the alternate NYC would have been like without RM. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 6 23:31:36 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Feb 6 19:16:39 2020. It seems like Prince Andrew is trying to catch up. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 6 23:33:02 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Feb 6 21:46:24 2020. From what I heard that was what was supposed to happen with the LIRR Port wash Branch east of Main St. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 6 23:34:23 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Feb 6 22:49:52 2020. Possibly the completion of most, if not all of the IND second system and definitely the full 4 and 6 tk SAS as originally intended. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Feb 6 23:55:35 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by randyo on Thu Feb 6 23:34:23 2020. Moses actually took more money from schools and hospitals to build highways and parks. With everything else going on like LaGuardia's hatred of trolleys, the city not allowing an increase to the five cent fare, the city's desire to tear downn els, the Depression, Workd War II and the growth of the automobile and the suburbs wjich was fueled by Moses, and the growth of the oil industry, there is actually no proof that without Moses, there would have been more subways today. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Feb 6 23:57:47 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by randyo on Thu Feb 6 18:51:15 2020. It was a problem only on 50 foot wide streets. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Feb 6 23:59:38 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by randyo on Thu Feb 6 18:54:56 2020. Ditto. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Feb 7 00:01:29 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by randyo on Thu Feb 6 23:31:36 2020. Hope he goes down like the other Prince Andrew. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Feb 7 00:01:31 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by randyo on Thu Feb 6 23:31:36 2020. Hope he goes down like the other Prince Andrew. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by jailhousedoc on Fri Feb 7 07:36:08 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Feb 6 17:31:08 2020. The Air Train was built in the median of the Van Wyck Expressway in spite of the objections of the local community - no local streets were opened up or blocked, and the project went forward to give us what we have today. In my view, the old Rockaway line should have been rehabilitated and used, making for a more efficient and cost effective transit line, but what is done is done. Now there is talk of re-using the Rockaway line, and the local NIMBY crowd is completely against it. Building a concrete encased line to prevent trespassers from getting onto the right-of-way and keep any noise down to a minimum might make the line more acceptable to them. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Feb 7 08:01:45 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by randyo on Thu Feb 6 23:33:02 2020. I've read that Queens Chamber of Commerce proposed extending the Flushing Line over the Port Wash Branch.The only definite offer I've read concerned the LIRR's trying to sell/give NYC the Whitestone Branch. NYC declined the offer. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by MATHA531 on Fri Feb 7 10:55:23 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Feb 6 22:49:52 2020. The Dodgers would still be in Brooklyn playing at Atlantic Yards. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Feb 7 11:28:34 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by MATHA531 on Fri Feb 7 10:55:23 2020. I’m not sure I buy that one. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Feb 7 11:29:56 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by jailhousedoc on Fri Feb 7 07:36:08 2020. That sounds like a scar on the landscape. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 7 12:14:23 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Feb 7 11:28:34 2020. IAWTP |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 7 13:34:19 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by randyo on Thu Feb 6 18:37:48 2020. I know that not many people will agree with me- but I wish that IND look had been preserved at Broad and 8th Avenue (and on actual IND stations like 14th Street and 34th Street). It was original to the stations, reflected the era in which they were built, and IMO, just looked good.On that note, I'd hope that Grand Street and 57th/6th can keep their 1960s look as well. OTOH, I'd keep the 1970s renovations at Bowling Green and at 49th Street. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 7 13:43:55 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Feb 6 23:55:35 2020. Alternative history can never be more than speculation.I would guess that even if Robert Moses's parents had never conceived him, a lot of what he did would have happened anyway. The automobile was invented and was popular. Almost assuredly, some funding shift would have gone from transit to highways- though perhaps less. Likely the Cross Bronx Expressway would've taken a less-destructive route. I'd venture to guess we might have the SAS, as it's in dense Manhattan, but the IND Second System wouldn't have gotten very far, as much of it was planned for more car-friendly Queens. Likely there would be some sort of rail transit and a pedestrian walkway on the Verrazano Bridge. Maybe a new Dodgers Stadium would've been built on the LIRR yards. The housing projects replacing neighborhoods would almost certainly happened pretty much as it did- maybe just some details would be different. In the case of housing, I think Moses was just interjecting himself into something that for better or worse, was going to happen anyway. As an example, I'll cite my Dad's home town of Glasgow, Scotland, which Post-WW2 also demolished much of itself in favor of substandard high-rise housing. |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Fri Feb 7 14:32:35 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Feb 7 11:28:34 2020. True. Corporate america's marketing departments are trying to force soccer on us.What's baseball? |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri Feb 7 14:57:06 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Feb 5 16:43:15 2020. I thought there was some leftover WWII debt all the way into the '90s. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Feb 7 15:06:32 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 7 13:43:55 2020. Likely there would be some sort of rail transit and a pedestrian walkway on the Verrazano Bridge.Possibly not. The VZ has a lower live load capacity than Manhattan, Williamsburg and Queensboro Bridges. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Feb 7 15:47:47 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Feb 7 15:06:32 2020. and how many semis should we ban to give us subway capacity? IMHO, whatever it takes |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Feb 7 15:51:47 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by 3-9 on Fri Feb 7 14:57:06 2020. Not according top what I have heard Reich say (over radio/internet, not in the room) It was LBJ who increased the deficits to pay for the illegal Vietnam war, and folded Social Security accounting into the main budget to falsify figures. (also decreasing silvercontent in 25c pieces) |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Feb 7 15:54:41 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 7 13:43:55 2020. Moses also set the low clearances on some of his highwayprojectsto prevent bus(readtransit for non auto owners)to access some beaches/parks IINM. That would have been a necessary historical trend. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 7 16:28:26 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by randyo on Thu Feb 6 18:13:19 2020. Interesting how much private property/buildings were destroyed to build that IND Grant Ave-80th St connector! |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Feb 7 18:40:06 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 7 13:43:55 2020. Your mention of the Glasgow urban renewal brings to mind a song by the Scottish folk group “Gaberlunzie.” The title of the song is “Gorbals Clearances." |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Feb 7 18:44:47 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Feb 7 15:47:47 2020. IMO A Lightrail line from an SIR station near the Staten Island Expressway over the VZ to the 95th St BMT Sta would be a good alternitave if there is a weight issue for a bona fide subway line crossing the bridge. |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Feb 7 18:45:43 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 7 13:34:19 2020. Broad and Fulton were rehabbed using the designs that the BMT would have used if the line had been built a few years earlier as it was intended. |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 7 18:49:08 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Feb 7 18:44:47 2020. There can't possibly be a weight issue. Compare a subway train or two to dozens of fully loaded tractor trailers.It's just a money and NIMBY issue. |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Feb 7 18:53:27 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Elkeeper on Fri Feb 7 16:28:26 2020. Even before that connector was built, there were some buildings demolished to make way for the construction of the IND along Houston St and Church St not to mention the buildings demolished to through route 6 Av Between W 3 St and Canal St. |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Feb 7 19:09:41 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 7 18:49:08 2020. The weight issue would be the combination of both subway trains and the dozens of fully loaded ( and possibly overweight) tractor trailers that would be using the bridge. It would be one or the other. The bridge could not tolerate the weight of both and the trucks have nowhere else to go.. Thats where a cross harbor freight rail tunnel would have come in mighty handy to cut down truck bridge traffic.You have a point about the money to be found to build a rail line across the bridge. Its just not there, not now anyway. Enter bond issues. As far as NIMBY's are concerned, they can be overcome if the local pols & transit officials have enough fire in the belly to put up a fight. Its been done before & can be done again. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Feb 7 19:50:14 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Feb 7 19:09:41 2020. If you are correct, then I would place a limit on the semis. I doubt very much of the merchandise is headed to warehouses/retailers in Brooklyn. Along with Triboro Rx we need to restore freight carfloats. In the long run freight bound forNew England needs to be diverted away fromthe VNB. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Feb 7 19:51:01 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by randyo on Fri Feb 7 18:45:43 2020. Funny thing - I used to get off at Fulton St. to transfer to the IND, but never paid any attention to the tilework. I didn't even realize it was IND style! OTOH I remember the IND touch at 8th Ave.-14th St. very well. |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri Feb 7 20:30:39 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Feb 7 15:51:47 2020. To be precise, in 1965 silver was completely eliminated from quarters except for proof sets. Shortly afterward, pre-1965 quarters disappeared from circulation. Whether that had anything to do with financing the war is debatable (it was probably just costing the government more than a quarter to make a quarter, which is negative seigniorage, which is bad whether you're fighting a war or not). Apart from that, we should have been financing our own subways and not relying on Uncle Sam to do it for us. |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri Feb 7 20:36:58 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by randyo on Thu Feb 6 23:31:36 2020. Cuomo is just as arrogant if not more so than Moses. The one big difference is that at least we can vote him out if we have the will to do so. Moses never held elective office, oddly enough, as far as I know. |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Feb 7 20:38:19 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Feb 7 19:50:14 2020. Do you speak of a weight limit or a number of trucks crossing? I agree. Either way the problem is enforcement. Scales on either side of the bridge to weigh or count truckloads would create monumental traffic jams with the resulting complaints about exhaust pollution. Then theres the problem to pay for the folks working and maintaining the scales.BTW many of the trucks crossing the VZ are gasoline/fuel oil tankers coming up from the refiners in NJ headed for NYC & LI destinations. |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri Feb 7 20:45:09 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Feb 7 19:50:14 2020. A lot of New England-bound freight probably uses I-287 to do an end run around New York City. A good chunk probably uses the George Washington Bridge, which partly explains the chronic tieups on the Cross Bronx Expressway along with freight bound for the Throgs Neck Bridge and eastern Long Island. There's also the double toll that trucks will have to pay to go through Staten Island, one MTA toll and one PA toll. They can avoid the MTA toll by bypassing Staten Island and Long Island. I don't actually recall seeing lots of trucks on the VNB. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Feb 7 22:50:45 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Feb 7 19:09:41 2020. The weight issue would be the combination of both subway trains and the dozens of fully loaded ( and possibly overweight) tractor trailers that would be using the bridge. It would be one or the other.Ammann used probability to build bridges that could not carry a load, if the bridge were bumper to bumper vehicles that did not exceed their legal weight limit. He reasoned such events were unlikely. This allowed him to design bridges that came in under budget. The live load capacity for the VZ is 4800 lb per linear foot. A 53 foot long trailer can legally carry 80,000 lbs. Add a cab for a 70 foot length. That's 1143 lb/linear foot. The VZ has 12 traffic lanes (actually 13 now). |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Feb 7 23:33:28 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri Feb 7 20:36:58 2020. He once ran for governor and it was disastrous. He lost. That’s what I remember reading in the Power Broker. |
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Posted by gbs on Fri Feb 7 23:56:47 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by randyo on Fri Feb 7 18:53:27 2020. Where the four F/G tracks descend and go underground from Smith-9 to Carroll St, the portal is not over Smith St but along side, over the residential block, and many buildings had to be removed for that. I imagine something similar happened in Park Slope where the same tracks descend and go underground from Fourth to Seventh Avs, not over 9 St or 10 St but in between the blocks. The same happened with the Culver tracks descending into MacDonald Av. The portal is alongside the street, not over it, and buildings had to be removed. (Where the New York-bound tube of the Holland Tunnel enters Manhattan it is directly under Canal St, but as the roadway rises to street level, it takes a slight S-curve south so that the portal is next to Canal St, not under it (and is now under a bulky building). To connect the G between Broadway and Flushing Av, Union St had to be created where it hadn't existed, and lots of buildings had to be razed. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Sat Feb 8 00:08:22 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Feb 7 22:50:45 2020. Where would a failure originate if the bridge were overloaded? |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Feb 8 03:31:45 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Feb 7 20:38:19 2020. I am not enough of a traffic manager to have an opinion on the best methodology. That said, I am sure that if we wanted the result badly enough a method would be figured out. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Feb 8 03:34:43 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by gbs on Fri Feb 7 23:56:47 2020. Yes, and 11 (IIRC) buildings in Chicago are slated to be bulldozed to allow the Belmont Flyover to be built to let Ravenswood bound trains turn off the North Side Main without blocking SB trains. Sometimes it has to happen. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 8 07:51:13 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Catfish 44 on Sat Feb 8 00:08:22 2020. Live load usually refers to the main support cables. These are the ones that go between Bklyn and SI. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Feb 8 08:05:08 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 8 07:51:13 2020. What's the safety factor of the VZB? I remember back in 1987, when the Golden Gate Bridge celebrated its 50th anniversary, so many pedestrians took to walking across it that the main span actually flattened out. Engineers calculated that there was no concern. |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Sat Feb 8 09:40:38 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Feb 8 07:51:13 2020. Well I’m glad to talk to you about this as a long time bridge aficionado. I do recall reading a book as a kid that stated the anchorages could withstand the pull of a quarter billion pounds. |
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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Sat Feb 8 09:42:48 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Feb 8 08:05:08 2020. That’s something I’d like to see. |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Feb 8 10:34:45 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Feb 8 08:05:08 2020. "Engineers calculated that there was no concern."...as long as they all didn't start dong jumping jacks!:) |
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Posted by VictorM on Sat Feb 8 14:33:03 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by gbs on Fri Feb 7 23:56:47 2020. Although in a few places such as the Culver express tunnel in Windsor Terrace they were able to tunnel under existing buildings without disturbing the buildings above. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Feb 8 15:11:44 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Feb 8 10:34:45 2020. The Golden Gate Bridge was explicitly designed to be able to have a lower deck for commuter rail. As such and given the relatively heavy fleet NWP operated in Marin County, there would seem to be significant "overhead" in the structure. |
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