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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Feb 13 13:16:07 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by AlM on Thu Feb 13 11:45:07 2020.

It was the fire that did in the WTC towers, not the impact.

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by AlM on Thu Feb 13 13:22:00 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Feb 13 13:16:07 2020.

True but not relevant to my point.

It is the flimsiness of the WTC construction that allowed them to collapse. The structure of the Manhattan Bridge towers is totally different.

PS. I am not using flimsy in the sense of negligent. I have no reason to believe that the towers weren't solidly enough built to handle any reasonably expectable event.




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(1538061)

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by MATHA531 on Thu Feb 13 14:32:37 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by AlM on Thu Feb 13 13:22:00 2020.

Actually from stuff I have read, the fact the towers were as sturdy as they were, allowed them to last an hour to an hour and a half before collapsing. Just try to comprehend how much worse the death toll would have been, as tragic as it was, if they had collapsed immediately after the impact.

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(1538063)

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Feb 13 14:39:09 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Thu Feb 13 12:46:49 2020.

yes. I actually did the math several years ago. These NWP cars were not lightweight aluminum airframes as BART cars are.
The major deterrent to BART across the GGB is class, race, fear of "them" coming to rob homes.

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(1538068)

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Dyre Dan on Thu Feb 13 14:57:59 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Feb 12 08:31:45 2020.

Yes, it probably would have been built stronger (and flatter) so that it could carry transit if Moses hadn't been in charge.

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(1538069)

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Feb 13 15:03:43 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Dyre Dan on Thu Feb 13 14:57:59 2020.

No. That almost sounds absurd.

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by AlM on Thu Feb 13 15:13:28 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by MATHA531 on Thu Feb 13 14:32:37 2020.

Towers built like the Empire State Building is built wouldn't have collapsed at all, ever. There would obviously have been massive damage.

And recall I was comparing to the Manhattan Bridge. There is no evidence to indicate that the Manhattan Bridge would collapse if a tower were hit by the biggest plane in existence.



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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Feb 13 15:52:23 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by AlM on Thu Feb 13 15:13:28 2020.

If Galloping Gertieís towers were deemed unsalvageable after the collapse because of the damage they suffered in the event I think itís reasonable to believe that a suspension bridge tower would be in jeopardy if it was hit by a fully loaded jetliner.

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(1538086)

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by AlM on Thu Feb 13 16:20:11 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Feb 13 15:52:23 2020.

Galloping Gertie's towers were pretty slender compared to the Manhattan Bridge.

Also, twisting forces from the deck are probably stronger than the impact of a plane that weighs a few hundred tons.




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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 13 16:51:07 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by AlM on Thu Feb 13 16:20:11 2020.

Not only that but the torque of the bridge twisting over an extended period likely caused the towers to weaken more than a single blow from an aircraft striking it.

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(1538091)

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Catfish 44 on Thu Feb 13 17:21:52 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by AlM on Thu Feb 13 16:20:11 2020.

Be that as it may none of those bridge towers are designed to withstand the impact of a jetliner. Iíd like to think youíre right though.

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Andrew Saucci on Thu Feb 13 19:57:04 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Feb 13 13:01:25 2020.

Exactly. The phrase used to describe the parkways was "linear park."

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Feb 14 09:39:27 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Feb 12 20:25:26 2020.

Haven't some those been rebuilt?

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 14 10:01:59 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Feb 14 09:39:27 2020.

No. The parkways south of Merrick Road always could fit heavy trucks because otherwise they wouldnít have been able to build Jones Beach, or provide deliveries to it.

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 14 10:05:11 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 14 10:01:59 2020.

Also, buses have served Jones Beach from day one. Bus stops and bus parking was always provided.

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Feb 14 10:22:48 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by AlM on Thu Feb 13 11:45:07 2020.

"The WTC was built flimsy."

Blatant uninformed nonsense. Do you have any studies to back that up?
Two planes with all their weight, speed & momentum slamming into fixed structures at a high level from the base and supporting the weight of those planes while inside & remain standing after the impact is a sign of "flimsy" construction?
That has to be one of the dumbest posts I've seen here in quite awhile.

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 14 10:27:15 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Feb 14 10:22:48 2020.

IAWTP. The fire was what did in the WTC.

The only reason a bridge tower might survive an impact from an airplane is that most of the burning debris would fall into the river and not contribute to a continuing fire. Also, the WTC fire was fueled by the contents of the WTC (furniture, paper), which contents would be absent in a bridge tower.

Also, the plane debris might fall onto the deck itself, rendering it unsalvageable even if it doesn't collapse.

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 14 10:31:06 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by AlM on Thu Feb 13 15:13:28 2020.

Source for ESB not collapsing?

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Feb 14 10:46:40 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 14 10:31:06 2020.

I donít know if there is a specific source but the level of redundancy in the ESB is most likely greater than the WTC.

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 14 10:56:26 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 14 10:31:06 2020.

The plane crash in the 1940s.


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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Feb 14 10:58:35 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 14 10:56:26 2020.

A 1940s bomber lost in the fog vs a fully loaded jetliner?

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 14 11:00:46 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 14 10:56:26 2020.

Did not start as massive a fire and struck with far less momentum.

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 14 11:00:54 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Feb 14 10:22:48 2020.

https://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/0112/eagar/eagar-0112.html

Again, by flimsy I didn't mean unsafe, for any reasonably foreseeable circumstance. Would you feel better if I had said "lightweight" or "thin"?






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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 14 11:01:20 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 14 11:00:46 2020.

Nevertheless.


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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Feb 14 11:02:57 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 14 11:00:54 2020.

If I was you Iíd lay off debating FA Jim on this.

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 14 11:43:01 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Feb 14 11:02:57 2020.

Sure. The link I posted says it all, much more eloquently than I have been saying it.



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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Feb 14 12:49:41 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 14 11:43:01 2020.

Thatís not the reason why I said that about Jim.
I canít read that report now but Iíll say the WTC lacked redundancy that Empire has.

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Feb 14 13:30:21 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 14 11:00:46 2020.

Did not start as massive a fire and struck with far less momentum.



It did start a massive fire.

The B25 was lighter and traveling at a much lower speed so, there was a lot less momentum transfer.

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 14 13:38:17 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Feb 14 13:30:21 2020.

Thatís not as massive a fire as at the WTC.

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 14 17:00:24 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Feb 14 12:49:41 2020.

Exactly.

And my primary point in this entire thread was to compare the WTC with the Manhattan Bridge towers, which are built many times more strongly than even the Empire State Building.



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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Feb 14 19:05:27 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 14 11:00:54 2020.

From Webster:

flim∑sy
/ˈflimzē/

adjective
adjective: flimsy; comparative adjective: flimsier; superlative adjective: flimsiest

" comparatively light and insubstantial; easily damaged"

Your word "flimsy" was never mentioned in the link you posted...with good reason. The author(s) knew what they was talking about. Under those circumstances, those towers were anything but "flimsy".

AFAIK, your description was never used in describing the construction or finished product, and under those 9/11 circumstances, a factor in its destruction anywhere, anytime.



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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 14 19:12:01 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Feb 14 19:05:27 2020.

Yeah, I should have said more lightly or thinly.

But I did emphasize I didn't mean unsafely.


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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by 3-9 on Fri Feb 14 19:40:20 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Feb 12 13:55:10 2020.

I got a couple myself around that time via my father. They always looked really "worn".

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Feb 14 19:41:22 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 14 19:12:01 2020.

They were built with the utmost efficiency in terms of materials and space accommodations in mind.

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by 3-9 on Fri Feb 14 19:45:33 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Feb 7 15:51:47 2020.

The reason why I thought WWII debt was still around was because I heard that was the first thing Clinton paid off when there was a budget surplus in the '90s. I was surprised at the time that there was still debt from WWII.

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Feb 14 19:59:28 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Feb 14 19:41:22 2020.

IAWTP! and NEVER built to withstand that type of attack. But they did, inasmuch they didn't tip over on impact.

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Feb 14 21:42:48 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Feb 14 19:59:28 2020.

I got your back all the way on this one.

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Feb 14 21:45:25 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Catfish 44 on Fri Feb 14 21:42:48 2020.

+1

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Feb 14 23:29:14 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Feb 12 08:28:17 2020.

With the HOV lane in place, I can't see how walkways would fit on the upper level.

The walkways are to be exactly like the GWB - between the vertical suspender cables and cantilevered around the towers.

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Feb 15 06:26:47 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by jailhousedoc on Thu Feb 13 00:22:05 2020.

Suspension bridges aren't the best kind for trains, but I think they can be built longer than arch bridges like the Hell Gate, which is one of the sturdiest bridges around. They say it can stand for 1,000 years. Would that bridge survive an airplane strike better than a suspension bridge? I think so, but I'm not sure why.

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by 3-9 on Sat Feb 15 08:03:52 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Feb 14 19:59:28 2020.

I remember that the WTC actually was designed to take a hit from an airliner, but a 707 and not with a full fuel load.

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Catfish 44 on Sat Feb 15 08:41:03 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by 3-9 on Sat Feb 15 08:03:52 2020.

The scenario was considered but not designed for. They also probably figured it was absurd and the consideration of fires was perhaps too far fetched.

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Feb 16 00:36:36 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 14 10:31:06 2020.

No other steel-framed tower has ever collapsed from either an airplane hit or a fire. There was a skyscraper in Spain that had a massive fire a year or two after 9/11/01, there was no collapse. ESB would presumably react the same way.

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Feb 17 11:39:24 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by AlM on Thu Feb 13 13:22:00 2020.

I remember hearing they were designed to collapse.

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Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways

Posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Feb 17 15:20:02 2020, in response to Re: The reason NYC stopped building subways, posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Feb 16 00:36:36 2020.

Poor comparison

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