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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Jun 22 14:17:34 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by ftgreeneg on Thu Jun 22 13:50:40 2017. Which is exactly what they"ll do. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jun 22 14:18:06 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by ftgreeneg on Thu Jun 22 13:50:40 2017. Not gonna happen! |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jun 22 17:16:08 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jun 21 15:19:57 2017. I noticed that too. If the local politicians want more credibility, they had better do their homework and learn what is doable and what is absolutely impossible. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jun 22 17:21:39 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Jun 21 06:59:32 2017. If there were a connection between the G and A lines, some form of G service to Manhattan would probably be possible. However, from what I have observed, the gradients of the G line are such, that a switch can’t even be installed between the 2 lines. |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Jun 22 17:58:13 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by randyo on Thu Jun 22 17:16:08 2017. Over a year-ago (or so) I was at a town hall meeting held by NYC Comptroller Scott Stringer in downtown Brooklyn, not far from the LIRR Atlantic Avenue terminal near the Brooklyn Academy of Music. The meeting was set up to hear from regular citizens on their ideas, thoughts proposals, etc. There was a table where various local officials spoke and then a question and answer session by the public.There were various questions asked and answered but the one that really caught my attention was the suggestion by a local citizen that an under-ground expressway be built UNDER FOURTH AVENUE in Brooklyn to relieve the traffic congestion on the BQE. This person suggested such an under-ground roadway be built because in his words Fourth Avenue is a very wide street and should be able to accomodate a roadway with several lanes. The guy said that he had worked this proposal for a while and had done his research, and felt that the idea would pass environmental muster. He said that this kind of roadway should be easier to construct because, in his words, "there's nothing under Fourth Avenue" that would get in the way. He really wanted to give Comptroller Scott Stringer a copy of his report because he thought that just a roadway would bring many benefits. Comptroller Scott Stringer applauded the man's work and effort and that said that he would pass along this report to his staff and folks at the NYC Department of Transportation for their review. At the meeting, I sat dumb-founded - because I could not believe what this person was saying nor the reaction by Comptroller Scott Stringer. I remarked to a friend also attending the meeting that I could not figure out which person was dumber - the guy who said he did his research or Comptroller Scott Stringer for not immediately "circular filing" the guy's supposed researched report! I said loudly to my friend, I know what's UNDER FOURTH AVENUE, its the D, N & R trains, the BMT Fourth Avenue subway since at least 1918! Comptroller Scott Stringer may have acted as if he was being kind by taking the report - to circular file it later, or maybe not. He seemed to support "citizen activism" of that kind. I just wondered about how someone could "miss" an entire subway line that's been there for a century? Local politicians - wow! Mike |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Jun 22 18:41:17 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Michael549 on Thu Jun 22 17:58:13 2017. Scott Stringer at least has the excuse of not being a local politician. He is Manhattan based. |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Thu Jun 22 19:50:53 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Michael549 on Thu Jun 22 17:58:13 2017. I don't think Stringer had anything to gain by immediately correcting the errant citizen, and a whole lot to lose if it blew up somehow and the media portrayed him badly as a result. This of course assumes that he was aware of the subway. Also, one could ride an underground subway line for decades and not ever realize what is on top of it, especially in the less well-known areas. One who rides the E or F between Jamaica and Manhattan might not think about the part that goes under Northern Blvd, for example. That is generally considered part of the "Queens Blvd" lines, even though parts diverge considerably from that street.On the other hand, if the guy sounded like Emily Litella, correcting him would be worthwhile just to get him to say, "Never mind." |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Thu Jun 22 19:59:35 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by ftgreeneg on Thu Jun 22 00:00:36 2017. "Countless customer/TO conflicts happen during attempts to fumigate a train."The attempt to clear a train is distinct from what might happen if the train is not clear. I agree, though, that, as they say, it isn't paranoia if they really are out to get you. Nevertheless, clearing trains does take time and everyone who supports that process needs to admit that and be willing also to support measures that will restore the lost capacity, expensive though they may be. Just throwing away the extra capacity without compensating somehow isn't good enough. If it takes expensive new lines, then that's what we need. |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Thu Jun 22 20:02:43 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Elkeeper on Thu Jun 22 13:52:07 2017. A third tube with no stations probably would not need to be outrageously expensive, though the question becomes one of how to connect it into the existing tubes at either end. If Mr. Bauman's assertion is true, his argument makes perfect sense, regardless of what the actual expense is, even if it is in the tens of billions of dollars. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jun 22 20:09:52 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by ftgreeneg on Thu Jun 22 13:38:01 2017. that's probably why they would like to install cameras in every car.To defend against lawsuits and fire personnel. |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Jun 22 20:34:54 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Andrew Saucci on Thu Jun 22 19:50:53 2017. I kinda agree, except that in this case Fourth Avenue has a subway UNDER IT from STEM to STERN basically from beginning to end in Brooklyn. For me, that was the - Wow!If it was some other street I probably would not have had such a reaction. Mike |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jun 22 22:16:34 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by AlM on Thu Jun 22 10:52:50 2017. The fumigation policy prevents short turning trains, where relay tracks currently exist. This means that trains must operate longer distances, where they may not be needed.The subway system does a bad job of getting commuters from Grand Central and Penn Station to the Financial District and Downtown Brooklyn. This deficiency is limiting the growth of both these areas. Consider an 8th Ave express that would short turn between Queens Plaza and 36th St and beyond Hoyt-Schermerhorn on center track between the Lafayette Ave and Clinton-Wash Aves stations. The switches in Brooklyn would have to be changed, but that's a relatively inexpensive job. What will the MTA do, if it ever finishes ESA? Lex service can be greatly expanded by short turning locals on the local relay track just north of 59th St. The locals could even switch from local to express at Brooklyn Bridge, and loop at South Ferry. The 14th St Line's capacity is limited by the 8th Ave terminal. Even though the MTA states that service levels currently match demand. Most riders would disagree. There's a middle track between 8th and 6th Aves. Alternate trains could short turn at 6th Ave. This could effectively double service level capacity. It would also cost far less than the RPA's idea of adding tail tracks. Besides fumigation, the one minute reversal time is another impediment. The reversal time is essentially the time to discharge and recharge the brakes. If the trains were designed to permit reversing direction without discharging the brakes, a separate separate reversal track would not be required for relays. One service that connects midtown with Brooklyn would be a short line between 60th St/Lex and Metrotech. There would be a lot more flexibility in the system to operate additional trains on short notice, if direction reversal were quicker. The two delaying factors are fumigation and brake discharge/recharge. |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jun 22 23:17:02 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jun 22 22:16:34 2017. Assuming that the necessary switches were installed at the west (RR north) end of 6 Ave, the time it would take to fumigate the train would negate the advantage of short turning it. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jun 22 23:23:26 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by randyo on Thu Jun 22 23:17:02 2017. I was stating what could be done, if fumigation were eliminated. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jun 22 23:40:13 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by randyo on Thu Jun 22 23:17:02 2017. there are problems with fumigation.Look at how bad Continental is. Often backed up to Woodhaven Blvd. Why? A big problem is the switchmen. You're taking people who are working at the slowest pace possible and don't care about "the road". I remember when the M terminated at Bay Parkway. One time I saw a switchman pull out of the relay, pull in to Bay Parkway, put two cars in the station, and dumped right there so that the N/B T/O could charge and pull up to the 8 car marker then go in service. This was done so the switchmen would not have to walk all the way back to the T/D's office from the north end of the station. M no longer terminates at Bay Parkway, but this illustrates the mentality in station switching jobs. These are people who in no way speed up service. If anything they slow things down. |
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Posted by FormerVanWyckBlvdUser on Fri Jun 23 00:25:09 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jun 22 22:16:34 2017. I remember that the R9s (and the standards too?) could put the brakes into the equivalent of 'full service' at one end, go to the other end, insert the brake handle and could release from there. That's because the 'key' hole on the AMUE type was close to the release position instead of at emergency.Of course, if the M/M let it dump air while the brake handle was at full service, if he waited too long, it would give the BIG dump. I actually saw this happen on a GG at the Bergen St station when the M/M left the cab (left the door wide open) to take care of something. |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Fri Jun 23 07:01:02 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jun 22 23:40:13 2017. Wow... maybe the road T/O didn't want to walk either? The TD should have nipped that in the bud if he/she knew about it. |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Fri Jun 23 07:08:05 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Andrew Saucci on Thu Jun 22 19:59:35 2017. I would say this imo there need to transit police stationed at every terminal stationed very close to the platform. Bc what slows things down isn't neccessarily the action of fumigation itself but the hold outs. If someone refuses to get off the train. Obviously T/O or C/R are not suppose to touch them so it has to be called in to the disp amnd RCC and now there's a wait for police (hopefully once police are mentioned they get off but some just don't care). Now things are backing up. If the cops are already there just call em over and they get the person off quick. |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Jun 23 07:17:43 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by ftgreeneg on Fri Jun 23 07:08:05 2017. Yeah. I've suggested before that clearing a train is really mostly a matter of money. Have 5 platform conductors and have them all shouting everyone off, and you can clear 99% of trains really fast (perhaps with a little threat of police if necessary).Would there even be any rule against using cleaners to do this? It's not a full time job - mostly needed between 4 PM and 7 PM. |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Fri Jun 23 07:50:35 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by AlM on Fri Jun 23 07:17:43 2017. Yes the Cleaners will have a huge problem with that. I could see it turning into a union issue. Not their job not to mention CR's would be pissed bc it should be their jobs. But yes more platform conductors would help but like you said it takes $$$ |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Jun 23 08:37:41 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by AlM on Fri Jun 23 07:17:43 2017. It's not a full time job - mostly needed between 4 PM and 7 PM.This function would also be required during the morning rush hour. The elimination of split shifts increased the cost of doing business. Two people are required to take care of the rush hours. Previously, only one person was required. N.B. the TWU is against part time workers. |
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Posted by Railman718 on Fri Jun 23 08:58:55 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jun 22 23:40:13 2017. Actually i work CTL Luch and the problem is with some of these Newbie "YX" people who act like they dont care about anything..The train sits there and the Dispt is screaming on the radio for them to get on that train... The Switchman with time there get on their relays do their Jobs... This is a different TA than what you used to see.. |
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Posted by Railman718 on Fri Jun 23 09:05:56 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jun 22 08:33:22 2017. Evidently your successors have a more than slightly different opinion. :=)There is ONE problem... This Bulletin you are obviously referring to is when the train is Double ended... The Schedule sometimes have TOs doing their own relays... That is when the problem (and it has) will occurred.. So the train HAS to be cleaned out. Yer Welcome.. |
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Posted by chud1 on Fri Jun 23 10:05:54 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by ftgreeneg on Fri Jun 23 07:50:35 2017. i remenmber platform c/r's when i was a kid.one of them had a bull horn with him to make anouncements. chud1. :)..... |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Jun 23 11:27:27 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by ftgreeneg on Fri Jun 23 07:01:02 2017. Also the switch man was in position at the south end of the station to do the next relay. |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jun 23 13:56:29 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by LuchAAA on Thu Jun 22 23:40:13 2017. The procedure at Bay Pky was actually normal SOP for the BMT as I remember it. Back before the Brighton Line platforms were extended and the T/D office at BBC was in the tower at the S/E of the N/B platform, Brighton exps relayed S/O the station. It was common practice for the drill M/M to bring the train opposite the tower on the N/B and the road M/M to get on and pull the train the rest of the way into the station. |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jun 23 14:25:34 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by ftgreeneg on Fri Jun 23 07:01:02 2017. Actually, what used to happen at Bay Pky was pretty much SOP for the BMT at locations where trains were relayed. At Brighton Bch prior to the platform lengthening, the T/D office and crew quarters were in the tower at the S/E of the N/B platform and arriving trains relayed S/O the station. The usual practice was for the re;lay M/M to bring the train out of the relay position and stop opposite the tower. The Road M/M would then board and bring the train fully into the station where the doors were opened awaiting departure time. |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jun 23 14:35:01 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Jun 23 08:37:41 2017. At some point, the TWU may have to give in with respect to split (swing) shifts. The MTA probably has good grounds to bring them back since Dept of Buses still has them. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jun 23 19:43:29 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Jun 23 11:27:27 2017. LOL!!!In other words, to be in position to get back to the T/D's office ASAP to relax, read the newspaper, or converse between relays. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jun 23 19:48:35 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by randyo on Fri Jun 23 14:25:34 2017. It would be easier to have eliminated station switching at Bay Parkway and put that money on the road.Or maybe the switchman just walk the 1,000 feet on every relay because it was an easy switching job. If you eliminate station switching at Continental, a terminal with terrible delays, the backups won't be so bad. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Jun 23 22:39:07 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by randyo on Fri Jun 23 14:35:01 2017. the TWU may have to give in with respect to split (swing) shifts...My own preference would be to go to completely automatic train operation (ZPTO). It's ridiculous that driverless cars will become a reality, while the MTA still requires two people to operate a train. Thus far, ATO has been bundled with the signal system. This is counter to the autonomous vehicle approach being taken by Tesla, Google, Uber, et al. Operating an autonomous train should be easier than operating an autonomous car/truck. Steering, lane changing, etc. isn't required. The autonomous approach would permit incremental introduction. Billions would not be required before the first train can operate. Another benefit is that platform doors would not be required because the vision system will be at least as good as a T/O's. |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri Jun 23 22:49:32 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Jun 23 22:39:07 2017. One of the things the unions will either have to start to understand or learn the hard way is that if they price themselves out of the market, ZPTO (or what I like to call Fully Automated Subway Trains) will become a reality lots sooner. The technology for FAST is already here and being used. In fact, even if the unions don't go out of the way to price themselves out of the market, clearly manual operation of trains is an endangered species. Token booths are already mostly relics, toll booths are on their way out-- technology is pushing out unskilled labor all over the place. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Jun 23 23:13:15 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Andrew Saucci on Fri Jun 23 22:49:32 2017. One of the things the unions will either have to start to understand or learn the hard way is that if they price themselves out of the market, ZPTO (or what I like to call Fully Automated Subway Trains) will become a reality lots sooner.ZPTO's cost depends on its implementation. Thus far, the CBTC/ATO approach is a financial bust to the operator. (It's great for the vendor.) The artificial intelligence (AI) advances have given the advantage autonomous operation. The railroad industry is slow to recognize technological trends. The MTA is even slower. technology is pushing out unskilled labor all over the place. It's also pushing out skilled labor. |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Jun 23 23:18:48 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jun 23 19:48:35 2017. The switchmen at CTL also put in trains and layup trains downstairs, Jamaica Yard and D4 Kew and Parsons.Many times with a late railroad the switchman is needed to relay so the crew can take a comfort as the same train they came in with, they have to take back south. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sat Jun 24 02:27:58 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Jun 23 23:18:48 2017. The switchmen at CTL also put in trains and layup trains downstairs, Jamaica Yard and D4 Kew and Parsons.All things most of the road crews already do. Many times with a late railroad the switchman is needed to relay so the crew can take a comfort as the same train they came in with, they have to take back south. They probably double-end it and ask to be picked up. And if the road is as bad as you say("many times"), I think it would be better to eliminate the switching jobs and put the money on the road with longer breaks between trips. |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sat Jun 24 02:52:29 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Railman718 on Fri Jun 23 08:58:55 2017. The train sits there |
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Posted by merrick1 on Sat Jun 24 09:21:04 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jun 22 08:40:42 2017. People still have had plenty of time to move. It's time for the next hipster neighborhood.The Times had an article recently. Where to Live When the L Train Shuts Down Here are some alternatives for renters looking for neighborhoods with a similar vibe. |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Jun 24 09:40:39 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by ftgreeneg on Fri Jun 23 07:50:35 2017. Actually, a cheaper solution is probably just having the T/Os step back two (or possibly three, if necessary) trains instead of just one. As an R or M arrives at 71st Ave, the T/O who will eventually take it back south again gets into the back. Then make some quick but not necessarily perfect efforts to clear the train, then move into the relay. Then move back into the station without the original T/O having to walk through the train. The original T/O then takes a break and then heads for the back of an incoming train, ready to be the T/O of a southbound train.Obviously this doesn't work for trains headed out to the yard, but even at the tail end of rush hour that's not going to be more than maybe one train out of three. |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Jun 24 10:04:50 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jun 22 22:16:34 2017. The subway system does a bad job of getting commuters from Grand Central and Penn Station to the Financial District and Downtown Brooklyn. This deficiency is limiting the growth of both these areas.??? Consider the AM rush hour: - A, C, E, 2, and 3 trains southbound from Penn are far from full. - 4 and 5 trains southbound from GCT are quite full, but not as full as they were between 86th and 59th. - Southbound B, D, F, N, Q, R, and W trains, which are of value for some of the trips you describe though slightly less convenient, are quite empty. I really don't see the need for a Queens Plaza to Hoyt-Schermerhorn train. The 14th St Line's capacity is limited by the 8th Ave terminal. It is limited at about 24 tph, which is less than they actually run. The peak hour has 20 trains. But yes, I could see short turning trains at 6 Ave (need to add switches to do that) if traffic increases even more. They could do that by having the eastbound T/O get on as the train pulls in to 6 Ave. That way there would be no need to clear the train 100% effectively because neither T/O would need to walk the length of the train while it was in the pocket track. The same could be done at Myrtle, so that there could be a very handy Myrtle-6 Ave supplementary service. I'm actually surprised that they don't do that now, just to save money: 10 tph from Canarsie to 8 Ave and 10 tph from Myrtle to 8 Ave. (Maybe when the L is closed in Manhattan they'll put in the added switches.) |
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Posted by pelham Exp on Sat Jun 24 13:56:57 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Michael549 on Wed Jun 21 16:30:38 2017. One GO in the early 80's on the Pelham Line had a Manhattan bound run local to Westchester Sq. reverse into the yard lead then Express to Parkchester. So of course this required a second T/O to board Westchester Sq for the reverse move then disembark before the train proceeded express. |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Jun 24 14:56:04 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by LuchAAA on Sat Jun 24 02:27:58 2017. I don’t know how it works on the M, but on the R line, longer recovery times and longer lunch breaks are already scheduled into the work programs. One of the reasons why drill T/Os are required is that it takes longer for a T/O to change ends on an 75 ft car like the R-46 and to ensure the train can make it out of the relay as quickly as possible a double end is needed. Also, it isn’t always possible to schedule every run on a given line to have a put in and/or a layup oor even make all the relays so a drill staff is required. |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Jun 24 14:57:04 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by pelham Exp on Sat Jun 24 13:56:57 2017. Did the train actually reverse in the yd or did it use the loop? |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Jun 24 15:09:03 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by AlM on Sat Jun 24 09:40:39 2017. If I remember from when I used to make the R work programs, in the AM, the leaving crew would board the S/E of the arriving train, and a drill T/O would get on the N/E to pull the train into the relay tk. That way the leaving T/O would always be in position to move the train out at the proper leave time. In the PM, the arriving crew would remain on the train and bring it into the relay track and the drill T/O would bring it into the station where the leaving crew would board and operate the train. In the AM there was no T/O change S/B to delay the service and in the PM there was no delay waiting for a drill T/O to move the train into the relay once it had been fumigated. |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Jun 24 15:14:10 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Jun 23 23:13:15 2017. While a fully automated system may be ultimately desirable, due to the nature of the NYCTS infrastructure itself, At least one employee should be on board every train in the event of an emergency where the immediate presence of a qualified employee is necessary. BART is fully automated, but an employee functioning more as an “attendant” than an actual operator is on every train. |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Jun 24 15:25:19 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by randyo on Sat Jun 24 15:09:03 2017. But under that method, in the PM there is a delay in getting the train out of the station and into the relay track while the train is being cleared out. That can lead to a conga line, and supposedly often does. |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Jun 24 15:26:41 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by merrick1 on Sat Jun 24 09:21:04 2017. If the people living near the L Line don't mind putting up with a year or two of temporary inconvenience, those neighborhoods could prove to be a boon for those people who might want to move there when the current residents leave since at least in the beginning, landlords my be willing to, or even find in necessary to cut rents in order to fill the apartments that may become vacant. Unlike my former neighborhood, Marine Park which has only bus service which is poorly coordinated with the various connecting subway lines especially late at night, passengers along the L will have subway service available in addition to the feeder bus service even if it does involve a bit of back riding to make it to Manhattan. |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Jun 24 15:44:44 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by randyo on Sat Jun 24 15:26:41 2017. The L line inconvenience will really depend on how well the substitutes work. If they put in enough G, J, and M trains, that will go a long way. I would think they ought to add more southbound M trains through Court Square in the AM rush, but that doesn't seem to be part of the plan. That's my biggest concern. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Jun 24 16:19:11 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by randyo on Sat Jun 24 15:09:03 2017. It was still done that way when I retired 3 years ago and probably still is done that way since the switching jobs are the same. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sat Jun 24 22:02:05 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Jun 23 22:39:07 2017. Driverless cars are a solution in search of a problem. |
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Re: G Train Loop |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Jun 24 22:29:31 2017, in response to Re: G Train Loop, posted by italianstallion on Sat Jun 24 22:02:05 2017. My mother could have used a driverless car after she developed macular degeneration. It forced her out of the suburban house that she could otherwise have enjoyed for 5 more years. |
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