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Re: Penn Station

Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Jan 7 02:46:09 2015, in response to Penn Station, posted by Dave on Sun Jan 4 21:23:30 2015.

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"feel important"?

That's a bit of a stretch.

NYC moved on. NYC needed a modern sports facility near public transportation and that was the best site.



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Re: Penn Station

Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Jan 7 03:03:36 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Jan 6 13:49:22 2015.

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Yes, it was a crime when the original Penn Station was torn down to make way for the current Madison Square Garden and 1 & 2 Penn Plaza, but it was a no-win situation at the time. Tearing it down was TODAY a mistake, but there would have been a very long, rocky road to getting Penn Station to the mid-1990's or so when it likely would have gotten the kind of rehab Grand Central eventually did get.

You have to remember that neighborhood was RAPIDLY deteriorating then as were other parts of NYC, fueled in part by corruption but also by a rapidly exploding drug culture that made many parts of Manhattan unsafe to be in after dark. Had the old Penn Station remained, it could have easily turned into a case of "be careful what you wish for" because the old station had a lot of openings that could have easily made it a haven for drug dealers (and a lot more than the re-done, ugly station had). It also would likely have deteriorated through the '70s and '80s when a series of recessions that started with 1969-'70 and continuing through 1990-'91 would likely have taken their toll on Penn Station before it finally would have been fixed up, most likely under Dinkins and Guliani (a lot of people forget the cleanup of Times Square actually started in 1993 under David Dinkins before Guliani was elected).

There also was the matter of the Knicks and Rangers. The old MSG on 8th-9th Avenues and 49th-50th Streets was even by 1962 RAPIDLY becoming obsolete, and even if it had been renovated instead of moved, by the early '70s you would have seen Sonny Werblin making a serious effort to get the Knicks and Rangers to move into what eventually was built for the Nets and opened as The Brendan Byrne Arena (in 1981), but in this case opening with the complex in 1976. That would actually have been looked at by many as a MUCH more serious crime than tearing down the old Penn Station much like many consider it a bigger crime that the Giants (since 1976) and Jets (since 1984) have been playing in The Meadowlands. Even if by now the Knicks and Rangers would have moved back to Manhattan and playing in a newer MSG (most likely the one proposed for the Javits Center in 1986), there would have been those who would have been very angry with those who wanted Penn Station saved to the point where the Knicks and Rangers moved to New Jersey. Many people care much more about sports than anything else, and that's why I say that.

There would have been a lot of unintended consequences of keeping the old Penn Station even if today it would have been as beloved as ever.

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Jan 7 03:07:51 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Jan 7 03:03:36 2015.

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And another thing that I had forgotten about, even if Penn Station had survived that battle AND even if it was landmarked it might have gone through ANOTHER battle 25 years later in 1987 or so to keep it from having office towers built on top:

They nearly tore down the current Madison Square Garden in 1986 with plans to move it to the then-just built Javits Center site because many wanted where MSG is for a new office tower. If the old Penn Station had remained, especially by 1987 and with a crack epidemic in full force, there would have been a lot of pressure in my view to tear down that Penn Station as there actually was in some circles to tear down the current MSG.

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Jan 7 05:56:51 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Jan 7 02:46:09 2015.

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Right!

What many forget it the old Madison Square Garden on 8th-9th Avenues and 49th-50th Street was RAPIDLY becoming obsolete, even in 1962 and certainly by the time it closed in the winter of 1968.

As I noted in another post, had that not happened, even if the old MSG had simply been renovated to bring it up to standards for that time, given how much power Sonny Werblin had at the time (late 1960's through early '80s), he likely would have steered the Knicks and Rangers to the arena that eventually was built for the Nets (Byrne Meadowlands Arena, now the IZOD center) that likely would have opened with the Sports Complex in time for the 1976-'77 season (as opposed to 1981 when it actually did open). THAT would have been looked at as a MUCH bigger crime than the tearing down of Penn Station.

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by chud1 on Wed Jan 7 07:31:20 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by italianstallion on Tue Jan 6 19:05:48 2015.

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i still call it da Henry Hudson Parkway.
chud1.
:)....

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by chud1 on Wed Jan 7 07:35:52 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue Jan 6 22:53:32 2015.

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IAWTP!
chud1.
:)....

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by chud1 on Wed Jan 7 07:39:09 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Jan 7 02:46:09 2015.

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IAWTP!
chud1.
:)....

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 08:50:07 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by italianstallion on Tue Jan 6 17:58:42 2015.

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OK. But whatever it isn't the 59th Street Bridge, and never was.

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 08:53:17 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by italianstallion on Tue Jan 6 18:01:21 2015.

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I hear RFK on the traffic reports and, importantly, that's how it shows on GPS services. At least the ones I've seen.

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Jan 7 08:53:43 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by chud1 on Wed Jan 7 07:31:20 2015.

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No one calls it the Henry Hudson Parkway south of 57th Street so I doubt you do.

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 09:01:02 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue Jan 6 22:53:32 2015.

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I think they should honor performers. I want to see the The Artist Formerly Known as Prince Bronx Whitestone Bridge.

Or to be consistant in not naming after people, how about honoring endangered species?

California Red-Legged Frog Throgg's Neck Bridge

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Jan 7 09:08:36 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by italianstallion on Tue Jan 6 23:36:45 2015.

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Um....

Pennsylvania

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Jan 7 09:08:49 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Wed Jan 7 02:16:17 2015.

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Why not?

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 09:14:13 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Jan 7 09:08:36 2015.

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Pennsylvania is named after William Penn, because he could.

But when someone things of Pennsylvania Station, they're not thinking that it was named as a memorial for someone, as in Reagan Airport, JFK Airport or RFK Bridge.

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Wed Jan 7 09:55:35 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 6 14:05:54 2015.

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The reason the N-B Bridge got the 'Hamilton Fish' named slapped on it, was because the Republican politicians in Dutchess County got into a snit when the Mid Hudson Bridge got the FDR tagged onto it.

And of course, the New York State Thruway is officially named 'The Thomas E Dewey New York State Thruway', as Governor Dewey was one of the main proponents of the whole thing. And most of the Thruway is a part of the 'Dwight D Eisenhower Interstate Highway System' :P

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Wed Jan 7 10:01:36 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 5 22:58:30 2015.

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Didn't the transition to 'LaGuardia' happen while the mayor was still in office???

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 10:02:49 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Wed Jan 7 09:55:35 2015.

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No one says (except in something official) "Eisenhower Interstate Highway" but sometimes I say "Dewey Threwy" because it's such good alliteration.

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 10:03:43 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Wed Jan 7 10:01:36 2015.

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Yes. Shameful actually, unless LaGuardia paid for it out of his own pocket.

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 11:10:08 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Jan 7 03:07:51 2015.

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All in all, those are pretty dismal after-the-fact excuses for tearing down Penn Station.

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by pragmatist on Wed Jan 7 11:52:21 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Wed Jan 7 09:55:35 2015.

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Well, political affiliations aside, naming something for someone who was a prime force in something being built or substantially renovated/upgraded is a very different animal from turning something into a memorial.
But to slip back to the original topic for a moment, I need to ask a question, since I was very young when I used to travel often out of old Penn to Baltimore, I have very few memories of the station. As an Amtrak regular I use that part of new Penn, and 30+ years as a NY Rangers ticket holder I know the subway and LIRR part pretty well also. I have only been on NJT once or twice. So my question: What would have been involved in transforming old Penn from a L/D type station (major endpoint) into a commuter hub, and would it have been any more successful than the present marginal operation?

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 12:15:49 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by pragmatist on Wed Jan 7 11:52:21 2015.

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The Old Penn and the New Penn have essentially the same track layout, though some platforms have been lengthened, we now have the West Side Yard, and there are additional entrances and such.

And it was and is a major commuter hub.

Are you talking about through-routing commuter trains? Aside from dealing with the power changes from DC third rail to much higher AC overhead, I think the schedule planning and labor issues would be the most work.

So I don't see much difference between the old and new Penn. The commuter concourse is even much as it was with the old Penn.

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by randyo on Wed Jan 7 12:29:04 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by pragmatist on Tue Jan 6 23:12:23 2015.

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If it ever gets completed, the “New’ Penn Station which is the USPO across 8 Ave will be named for the late Sen Moynihan.

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by pragmatist on Wed Jan 7 12:30:53 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 12:15:49 2015.

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thanks, I didn't have a visual memory of the commuter concourse, that helps....I can't resist mentioning that the West Side Yards bear the name of John Caemmerer

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by randyo on Wed Jan 7 12:36:02 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 09:01:02 2015.

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As long as you mentioned it, I often refer to the Jackie Robinson Pky as “the parkway formerly known as the Interboro."

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Jan 7 12:46:19 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 09:14:13 2015.

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I know. That's what pragmatist said.

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 12:54:27 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by randyo on Wed Jan 7 12:29:04 2015.

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The Post Office building is very nice, but not the same thing.

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Jan 7 12:54:36 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by randyo on Wed Jan 7 12:29:04 2015.

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No. Phase I of Moynihan Station is being built right now and is scheduled to be completed in 2016. So in 2016, you will be able to enter Penn Station via the Moynihan Station building.

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 12:55:56 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by pragmatist on Wed Jan 7 12:30:53 2015.

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I can't resist mentioning that the West Side Yards bear the name of John Caemmerer

Never heard anyone use the name. A conductor of my acquaintance called it "Wally World."

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 13:00:19 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Jan 7 12:54:36 2015.

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"You will be able to enter."

It will be an inconvenience if travelers are dumped under Moynihan or have to use it to buy tickets or as a waiting room.

The attempt to make believe that this is a revival of Penn Station will cause people to hike a loooong extra block to get to the subways on 6th and 7th Avenues and Broadway.

Of course they could rebuild the 9th Avenue el. Open air ride!

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Jan 7 13:11:13 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 13:00:19 2015.

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Not sure what you are talking about. All it is, is what you quoted from my post. You will "enter" the existing Penn Station. So think about all the infrastructure that exists at Penn Station right now. Moynihan Phase I is just a door that lets you enter it, just like there are also doors on the NE corner of 31/8, the SE corner of 33/8, the west side of 32/7, and at the various subway entrances. So the only people who will use it are those who have a reason to be above ground on the west side of 8th Avenue, and maybe also those who are above ground on the east side of 8th Avenue and they get a favorable light to cross the street.

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Wed Jan 7 13:29:29 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 10:02:49 2015.

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But those signs calling it the Eisenhower System are all over the country on ramps and on the highways themselves.

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by pragmatist on Wed Jan 7 13:44:20 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 12:55:56 2015.

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I used to see the little sign when I walked down to work at the Javits Center. Getting off the train, you would sometimes hear an announcement that the train was going to "the yards" or the "West Side Yards", but never ever heard the full name. Which is in line with most of what we all have said, to us, it is still 6th Ave, Triboro Bridge, Interborough, Battery Tunnel, 59th Street/Queensboro Bridge, ad infinitum. And probably always will be!

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by 3-9 on Wed Jan 7 13:46:31 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by pragmatist on Wed Jan 7 13:44:20 2015.

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Some people use the names though, like shadow traffic.

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 14:09:19 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Jan 7 13:11:13 2015.

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Moynihan Phase I is just a door that lets you enter it, just like there are also doors on the NE corner of 31/8, the SE corner of 33/8, the west side of 32/7, and at the various subway entrances.

Just a door?! What's the point of that?

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 14:10:27 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Wed Jan 7 13:29:29 2015.

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They are? I can't ever recall seeing one?

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Jan 7 14:12:57 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 12:55:56 2015.

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The MTA's John D. Caemmerer West Side Storage Yard



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Re: Penn Station

Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Jan 7 14:16:28 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 14:10:27 2015.

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Yep!

Eisenhower System - Google Search

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Jan 7 14:19:47 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 14:09:19 2015.

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Just a door?!
More than one door. Let's say 3 to 6 doors.

What's the point of that?
I alluded to it in my post. People who are on the west side of 8th Ave will be able to enter Penn Station without having to cross to the east side of 8th Ave and go through all the resulting congested areas of Penn Station. They'll be able to head underground from the west side of 8th Ave and use underground corridors to reach their trains (and other parts of Penn Station) that are much less congested.

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 7 14:32:40 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Jan 7 02:46:09 2015.

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That is bullshit. NYC could have torn down any number of nondescript buildings to build a modern sports facility. The main reason MSG was built there was because it was a large plot of land that became available. I wonder if the potential of being located near the Mid-Manhattan Expressway was a factor.

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Wed Jan 7 14:37:38 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by pragmatist on Wed Jan 7 11:52:21 2015.

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What would have been involved in transforming old Penn from a L/D type station (major endpoint) into a commuter hub...

Widening the stairs to/from the platforms for one. They're always a choke point getting off the trains.

--Mark

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 7 14:38:33 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Jan 7 12:54:36 2015.

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Is this why the LIRR West End Concourse is so narrow right now?

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 7 14:43:07 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 11:10:08 2015.

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IAWTP!

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Wed Jan 7 14:44:45 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Jan 7 05:56:51 2015.

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One thing is that besides the Knicks and Rangers, the 'new' MSG came about just in time for the era when Rock acts started needing 15-20,000 seaters for their shows. From everything I have heard, the old Garden was totally inadequate for that, whereas the new one had, and still has some of the better acoustics for this kind of facility. The easy accessibility to public transport has always given the Garden an edge over places like the Meadowlands and Nassau Mausoleum. Now the Garden has serious competition with both Newark and Brooklyn, because their transportation access is almost equal.

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Jan 7 14:45:51 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 7 14:38:33 2015.

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You mean narrow with temporary construction walls? If so, then yes, probably.

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 15:04:19 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Jan 7 14:19:47 2015.

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I would call that "additional entrances to Penn Station" not "Moynihan Phase One."

What's Moynihan Phase Two? A newsstand just outside the new doors?

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 15:06:22 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Jan 7 14:12:57 2015.

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I can almost read his name on it!

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 15:09:27 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Jan 7 14:16:28 2015.

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That's cool! Thanks!

But couldn't Eisenhower have given us something we really needed? Like a massive landscape wrecking program with deforestation and urban neighborhood destruction?

Oh wait. We got those.

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 15:14:45 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Jan 7 02:46:09 2015.

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NYC needed a modern sports facility near public transportation and that was the best site.

The best site for the builders. They could have purchased the basically crappy buildings and parking lots next to Penn Station and built to their heart's content and they wouldn't have had to tear down a massive existing structure over years.

But they did it the way they did so they wouldn't have to deal with the owners of many small parcels and petition the city for permission to close 30th street from 7th to 8th Avenues.

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 15:25:06 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 7 14:32:40 2015.

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IAWTP! We know this because at the time quite a few people asked why that the crappy plots couldn't be acquired and they gave that honest answer.

Nowadays they'd find some nice-sounding bullshit answer like: "those buildings are on an ancient Native American burial ground, and all our home teams would be cursed if the land were desecrated."

Or even better yet "It's the home breeding ground for the critically endangered South Hell's Kitchen Naked Tailed Fanged Rat. We can't destroy their habitat. It is estimated that there are no more than 10,000 breeding pairs* in the ENTIRE WORLD."

*If you know anything about rats, that qualifies as endangered.

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Re: Penn Station

Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 7 15:53:47 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Wed Jan 7 14:44:45 2015.

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There is little question that a new Garden needed to built. The question is whether Penn Station was a necessary trade-off. I do not believe that it is.

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