|
|
| Re: Penn Station (1331964) | |
 |
|
| Home > SubChat | |
[ Post a New Response | Return to the Index ]
|
Page 6 of 12 |
||
|
| (1333181) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Jan 12 14:32:27 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jan 11 00:45:34 2015. I didn't know what the "Utica Aud" was, so I googled it:In 2011, The Utica Memorial Auditorium was designated as a National Historic Civil Engineering Landmark by the American Society of Civil Engineers in recognition of its innovative cable suspended roof. The Aud is the world’s first pre-stressed dual cable roof system. Architect Lev Zetlin's design used struts between the cables and was the predecessor to the many modern dome designs that we see today, including Madison Square Garden. If Madison Round Garden were to be designated as a civil engineering landmark, like the Utica Aud, would that mean that it could not be torn down? --Mark From http://theuticaaud.com/ --Mark |
|
|
| (1333183) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Jan 12 14:32:54 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jan 11 00:45:34 2015. I didn't know what the "Utica Aud" was, so I googled it:In 2011, The Utica Memorial Auditorium was designated as a National Historic Civil Engineering Landmark by the American Society of Civil Engineers in recognition of its innovative cable suspended roof. The Aud is the world’s first pre-stressed dual cable roof system. Architect Lev Zetlin's design used struts between the cables and was the predecessor to the many modern dome designs that we see today, including Madison Square Garden. If Madison Round Garden were to be designated as a civil engineering landmark, like the Utica Aud, would that mean that it could not be torn down? --Mark From http://theuticaaud.com/ --Mark |
|
|
| (1333192) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Mon Jan 12 15:45:45 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon Jan 12 14:32:54 2015. It will be MSG's 50th anniversary in couple of years - in many ways, it qualifies itself for some kind of Landmark Designation!This from the official NYC Landmarks Commission site: 1. What does it mean when a building is given landmark status? It means your building has special historical, cultural, or aesthetic value to the City of New York, state or nation, is an important part of the City's heritage and that LPC must approve in advance any alteration, reconstruction, demolition, or new construction affecting the designated building. I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly think it qualifies on the first two points alone... |
|
|
(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
|
| (1333200) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by italianstallion on Mon Jan 12 16:55:05 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Mon Jan 12 15:45:45 2015. One criterion that is applied in practice, though not written in the official policy -- to be a landmark, a building can't be effing ugly! |
|
|
| (1333214) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 12 18:36:00 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by AlM on Sun Jan 11 19:50:32 2015. You need to study the old Penn Station layout to understand why that was better for pedestrian flows. |
|
|
| (1333226) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 12 19:22:38 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 11 19:04:14 2015. IAWTP. Penn Station should be New York's Cathedral of Christ the Savior. |
|
|
| (1333233) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by R30A on Mon Jan 12 20:35:48 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Jan 7 05:56:51 2015. Who cares?Madison Square Garden could cease to exist. As long as a decent Penn station was built in its place, NYC would be gaining greatly even if no replacement for MSG was built. |
|
|
| (1333234) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by R30A on Mon Jan 12 20:38:04 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by SLRT on Mon Jan 5 13:39:40 2015. While I can't say I would support naming anything after Reagan, naming an airport after him is especially insulting considering his treatment of their personnel. |
|
|
| (1333235) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by SLRT on Mon Jan 12 20:39:43 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by R30A on Mon Jan 12 20:38:04 2015. You mean the air controllers. Did you know Reagan executed the plan created by Jimmy Carter? |
|
|
| (1333236) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 12 20:47:06 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by italianstallion on Mon Jan 12 16:55:05 2015. I wish that was totally true. Sometimes buildings get landmarked to preserve a particular style, or the character of an area. Or to preserve the work of a particular architect or architectural style or something of historical note. I teach classes in a building that was landmarked in 2007, and it is an ugly P.O.S. But in its earlier life it was of historic significance. |
|
|
| (1333241) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by R30A on Mon Jan 12 21:42:47 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by SLRT on Mon Jan 12 20:39:43 2015. I would not support naming an airport after Carter either. |
|
|
| (1333242) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Jan 12 21:44:21 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 12 07:24:12 2015. Same here with the RFK/ Triborough bridge transition. Why did they wait 40 years after Robert Kennedys passing to re-name that bridge?? |
|
|
| (1333248) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jan 12 22:29:54 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 6 13:46:45 2015. First Citizen was IINM a title used by Octavian. |
|
|
| (1333253) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by Dyre Dan on Mon Jan 12 23:39:58 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 7 14:09:19 2015. So people will climb the grand staircase from 8th Ave. to the current Post Office lobby, only to find nothing inside except other staircases going right back down, to an underpass under 8th Avenue? If that really is the plan, it is a ridiculously bad joke. It would be a laughingstock. Anyway, doesn't the 8th Ave. subway occupy the level immediately below street level under 8th Avenue? |
|
|
| (1333254) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by TerrapIN StatiON on Mon Jan 12 23:53:49 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Dyre Dan on Mon Jan 12 23:39:58 2015. So people will climb the grand staircase from 8th Ave. to the current Post Office lobby, only to find nothing inside except other staircases going right back down, to an underpass under 8th Avenue?No. When Phase I is complete, they will enter the building at grade from sidewalk level (more or less). They will then continue down to the subway fare control and LIRR concourse levels. |
|
|
| (1333256) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by italianstallion on Mon Jan 12 23:56:34 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Dyre Dan on Mon Jan 12 23:39:58 2015. No one will climb the staircase, unless they want to buy stamps. |
|
|
| (1333258) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by ftgreeneg on Tue Jan 13 00:25:47 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by R30A on Mon Jan 12 20:35:48 2015. Sports fans (mainly basketball, hockey and probably boxing) feel as strongly about the existence of MSG and it's history as railfans feel about the old Penn Station. |
|
|
| (1333263) | |
Re: Madison Square Garden |
|
|
Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Jan 13 04:45:41 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by ftgreeneg on Tue Jan 13 00:25:47 2015. That is true about sports fans.Madison Square Garden is as beloved as Penn Station was, if not more. That doesn't mean it won't have to eventually be replaced as the current building is (as noted elsewhere) already the oldest in use in the NHL and will be the oldest in the NBA once the Warriors move into their new building in San Francisco. By the time a new MSG comes online (which has been suggested already for 9th-10th Avenues and 28th-30th Streets), the current MSG could be closing in on 60 and even 65 years old. |
|
|
| (1333264) | |
Re: Madison Square Garden |
|
|
Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jan 13 05:07:37 2015, in response to Re: Madison Square Garden, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Jan 13 04:45:41 2015. So MSG will have something other venues won't. Legacy.Besides, it's basically a venue. It was gutted and everything inside is brand new. Everything is up to NBA/NHL standards. LED ribbon boards. Video screens. Etc......... The iconic ceiling can't be replaced. I see the current venue hitting 75. And when it does, becomes even more of a "must" play venue. |
|
|
| (1333265) | |
Re: Madison Square Garden |
|
|
Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jan 13 05:43:36 2015, in response to Re: Madison Square Garden, posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jan 13 05:07:37 2015. basically a new venue is what I meant to say. |
|
|
| (1333266) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Tue Jan 13 06:39:23 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by ftgreeneg on Tue Jan 13 00:25:47 2015. Yes. That is absolutely correct. 50 years of sports has made it beloved too. Its been there as long as Penn. BTW, its not just railfans that lament the old Penn....many do. |
|
|
| (1333268) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 13 07:39:02 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by AlM on Sun Jan 11 19:50:32 2015. A lot of station activity happens before entering the platform level, no? In fact, very little activity actually happens on the platforms aside from walking down stairs to the doors of the trains. Who waits on the actual platforms? |
|
|
| (1333269) | |
Re: Madison Square Garden |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 13 07:41:14 2015, in response to Re: Madison Square Garden, posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jan 13 05:07:37 2015. While this is true, I can guarantee, there will be many unhappy people when/if MSG is torn down. Its terrible that it replaced Penn Station, but at the same time, it also made a huge mark on NYC too, just as most stadiums/arenas do. |
|
|
| (1333270) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 13 08:19:25 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 13 07:39:02 2015. I'd wait on the platform if Amtrak wasn't so ANAL. |
|
|
| (1333271) | |
Re: Madison Square Garden |
|
|
Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 13 08:20:25 2015, in response to Re: Madison Square Garden, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Jan 13 04:45:41 2015. which has been suggested already for 9th-10th Avenues and 28th-30th StreetsBy whom, you? LOL. |
|
|
| (1333272) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 13 08:20:49 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 13 07:39:02 2015. When they announce the train and everyone goes down several minutes before the equipment arrives from WSY. Happens all the time. |
|
|
| (1333275) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by AlM on Tue Jan 13 08:42:05 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 13 07:39:02 2015. Who waits on the actual platforms?Not sure why you're replying to me. I questioned the need for more space 3 levels above the platforms, which is where street level is. To me the best place to wait would be 1 level above the platforms, as LIRR does. |
|
|
| (1333276) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 13 08:47:47 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 13 08:19:25 2015. Amtrak likes to hoard and herd for "Security Theatre". They do that in major terminals across the country. Blogs have been written on how to get around them.Moynihan Station according to Amtrak is "for a more orderly boarding process". IOW, more Kindergarten line antics, showing you e-ticket, which any idiot can photoshop, to a stupid Gate Dragon, and where they won't block NJT commuters from passing through. That's why that $1.5 Billion project must be stopped. |
|
|
| (1333277) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 13 08:53:29 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by AlM on Tue Jan 13 08:42:05 2015. Amtrak tells people to wait 2 levels above the platforms. That is what we are discussing. |
|
|
| (1333278) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 13 08:55:46 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 13 08:47:47 2015. Amtrak likes to hoard and herd for "Security Theatre".I know. They do that in major terminals across the country.I know. Blogs have been written on how to get around them.I know. But I don't need no stinkin blogs. Moynihan Station according to Amtrak is "for a more orderly boarding process". IOW, more Kindergarten line antics, showing you e-ticket, which any idiot can photoshop, to a stupid Gate Dragon, and where they won't block NJT commuters from passing through. That's why that $1.5 Billion project must be stopped.Um, moving all those cows-to-the-slaughterhouse-half-moon-chute sheeple out of the way so the rest of us can freely circulate the "Amtrak" level of Penn Station is a GOOD thing. |
|
|
| (1333280) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by AlM on Tue Jan 13 09:16:49 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 13 08:53:29 2015. Not what I was responding to.The poster I responded to suggested that MSG was in the way of improving traffic flow at Penn. I asked how, because they only have facilities at street level. No one has claimed that removal of MSG would create additional space one level below the street. |
|
|
| (1333281) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 13 09:26:14 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by AlM on Tue Jan 13 09:16:49 2015. Yes they have. They want to remove MSG, leave the Amtrak floor level where it is (think about how the GCT main floor level is depressed from street level) and open up everything above it,just like GCT. That will also allow a lot of columns and load bearing walls to be removed to open up the floor plan. |
|
|
| (1333283) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by AlM on Tue Jan 13 09:30:05 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by terRAPIN station on Tue Jan 13 09:26:14 2015. So that's the idea? Get rid of MSG just to remove load bearing columns and walls, nothing else? No one said that in response to my posts until you just did.My guess would be 10% or less of floor space on the Amtrak waiting level is taken up by load bearing structures. |
|
|
| (1333284) | |
Re: Madison Square Garden |
|
|
Posted by pragmatist on Tue Jan 13 09:31:30 2015, in response to Re: Madison Square Garden, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Jan 13 04:45:41 2015. MSG is a different case than Penn Station, despite the intertwining of their paths at the present. The current MSG is the fourth incarnation, at the third site. Sentimentality aside, when the economics are worked out (when they figure out the best way to screw the public) a new building at a new site will probably emerge. Most if not all of us would love to see a new or drastically improved Penn Station. Also, that it would be a major benefit to NYC. It just is not going to be easy to obtain the commitment to spend the enormous sums of money required to make this happen. MSG and its teams and events contribute enormously to both the life and economy of the city and can not be ignored or considered as an afterthought. They just spent a billion dollars to replace almost the entire inside of the building. Even though the shell is old, the fan experience is actually pretty good. Even the upper bowl, which had notoriously bad sight lines was improved in a major way. They are not in a hurry to move, and despite the clock ticking on the 10 year permit, we all know the city is not going to cut off the revenue stream until they have "plan B" in place. |
|
|
| (1333287) | |
Re: Madison Square Garden |
|
|
Posted by chud1 on Tue Jan 13 10:08:21 2015, in response to Re: Madison Square Garden, posted by LuchAAA on Tue Jan 13 05:07:37 2015. IAWTP!by da way my younger brother works at MSG for close to 30 years. chud1. :)..... |
|
|
| (1333288) | |
Re: Madison Square Garden |
|
|
Posted by chud1 on Tue Jan 13 10:11:29 2015, in response to Re: Madison Square Garden, posted by pragmatist on Tue Jan 13 09:31:30 2015. IAWTP!chud1. :).... |
|
|
| (1333289) | |
Re: Madison Square Garden |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 13 10:15:54 2015, in response to Re: Madison Square Garden, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 13 07:41:14 2015. Madison Square Garden's location is irrelevant. It is the third location for the arena, and the fourth building. A fifth building would be part of that same history.Penn Station was one of a kind. |
|
|
| (1333291) | |
Re: Madison Square Garden |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 13 10:29:24 2015, in response to Re: Madison Square Garden, posted by pragmatist on Tue Jan 13 09:31:30 2015. That's exactly the case. There is no "real" reason to get rid of Madison Square Garden, aside from the land it stands on.Its very unfortunate what happened in the mid 1960's there. A tragedy actually. But the truth is, done is done. Nothing can bring Penn Station back, the real one. And we can attempt to correct the mistakes of the past, but it will never be the architectual masterpiece that was taken from us. And exactly as you said, the city isn't going to let MSG just leave, it's a major draw to the city. If one day a new better location can be found, perhaps the real estate over Penn Station will open up again, but I really don't see that coming any time soon, no matter how much I also am saddened by the building that was lost in the 60's there. |
|
|
| (1333293) | |
Re: Madison Square Garden |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 13 10:36:52 2015, in response to Re: Madison Square Garden, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 13 10:29:24 2015. Cathedral of Christ the Savior was brought back. |
|
|
| (1333294) | |
Re: Madison Square Garden |
|
|
Posted by pragmatist on Tue Jan 13 10:50:21 2015, in response to Re: Madison Square Garden, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 13 10:36:52 2015. The Penn Station saga is a bit like the tip of the iceberg. It is the very visible part of a much larger problem, the treatment of rail travel (including commuter) in this country in general. To build a grand gateway to a second class (or worse) network just might not be a good use of either our efforts or our resources. For the benefit of future generations, we(society in general, not us as a group-most of us already do) really should dig our heels in, and start to appreciate the role rail has in our country. |
|
|
| (1333296) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 13 11:17:40 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Tue Jan 13 08:20:49 2015. Of course. But the majority of the activity is NOT at track level. |
|
|
| (1333297) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 13 11:18:43 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by AlM on Tue Jan 13 09:16:49 2015. It will open everything up above. The quality of the space too. |
|
|
| (1333298) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 13 11:19:17 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by AlM on Tue Jan 13 09:30:05 2015. Who said JUST load bearing structures? |
|
|
| (1333299) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by r33/r36 mainline on Tue Jan 13 11:33:09 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by ftgreeneg on Tue Jan 13 00:25:47 2015. I agree, I'm a railfan and do NOT want to see MSG get torn down just for a bigger train station, too many classic moments happened at MSG. Its also a classic arena for wrestling too.The current setup is perfect, station in the basement of some other kind of development, either that or something slimiar to the "Transbay Transit Center" out west. |
|
|
| (1333301) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 13 11:35:42 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Tue Jan 13 11:33:09 2015. Yankee Stadium had been around much longer and was torn down anyway despite the fact that the land it stood on wasn't really needed for anything.The current set up is NOT perfect! The city's main train station belongs in its own building. Not in a basement. |
|
|
| (1333302) | |
Re: Madison Square Garden |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 13 11:37:49 2015, in response to Re: Madison Square Garden, posted by pragmatist on Tue Jan 13 10:50:21 2015. Rail will never be an important part of long range travel that it used to once be. That's not to say rail doesn't have it's place, obviously it's very important as a commuter operation.Grand Central is after all, now just a commuter station. |
|
|
| (1333303) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 13 11:39:43 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 13 11:35:42 2015. This is correct....but nothing will happen there unless a viable replacement location for MSG is found, as well as funding to build a new station at Penn. The truth is, as much as the post office attemps to correct the problem, it "is" a little too far over, as the Penn Location is the location where most of the activity takes place, as well as being that one long block closer inland. |
|
|
| (1333304) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 13 11:41:07 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Tue Jan 13 11:33:09 2015. As others have said, historic Yankee Stadium was torn down, as well as many historic stadiums.I totally understand that aspect of it too, but also see that history can be made in a new location too. That said, they just spend hundreds of millions to upgrade MSG, I don't see how that will just be thrown away either. |
|
|
| (1333305) | |
Re: Madison Square Garden |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Jan 13 11:41:49 2015, in response to Re: Madison Square Garden, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 13 10:15:54 2015. Penn Station WAS one of a kind. And it's a travesty. But it is GONE. Wrongfully so, but it is gone. Nothing can bring it back. |
|
|
| (1333307) | |
Re: Penn Station |
|
|
Posted by r33/r36 mainline on Tue Jan 13 11:46:21 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 13 11:35:42 2015. The area Yankee Stadium was in needed the park space, that's why the original was torn down. The new Yankee Stadium location was originally a park. Tearing it down was justified in that case. I never heard of anyone complaining about NYP outside of railfans TBH. |
|
|
|
Page 6 of 12 |
||
