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Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Thu Jan 8 19:00:28 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by SMAZ on Thu Jan 8 15:02:00 2015. A station is still there and so is Madison Square Garden. Lose-win. |
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| (1332826) | |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jan 8 19:09:50 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by SMAZ on Thu Jan 8 15:02:00 2015. All these Penn Station articles have a hidden agenda: let's blow away $1.5 Billion on the vanity project called Moynihan to let Amtrak pretend it is Penn Station. |
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| (1332827) | |
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Posted by merrick1 on Thu Jan 8 19:14:48 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 7 20:30:55 2015. MSG isn't going to last forever.It's the oldest arena in the NHL and the second oldest in the NBA. It has to compete with newer buildings in Brooklyn and Newark for concerts, circuses, Ice Capades, etc. The recent renovations are an improvement but it still isn't as nice as newer arenas. |
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Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Jan 8 19:18:47 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by merrick1 on Thu Jan 8 19:14:48 2015. Right. And the city declined to extend its zoning exemption indefinitely, but only for 10 years. It will move or be gutted and rebuilt. |
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| (1332833) | |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Jan 8 20:47:48 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Thu Jan 8 19:09:50 2015. Huh? How is that a hidden agenda? |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Jan 8 20:48:17 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by SMAZ on Thu Jan 8 15:02:00 2015. ???? |
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Re: Penn Station |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Jan 8 20:49:58 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by merrick1 on Thu Jan 8 19:14:48 2015. If I'm deciding whether or not to go see the circus, I don't take the age of the facility into consideration. And I can't imagine others would as well. Nor would the circus care. Other factors are far more important for all parties involved. |
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| (1332860) | |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jan 9 04:33:15 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jan 7 14:43:07 2015. Even I agree, but I'm just looking at how it may very well have played out if they did in fact keep the old Penn Station.Fact was, though not on the level of Robert Moses by any means, Sonny Werblin was a huge player in the late 1960's, '70s and '80s. He was very influential as I remember in getting The Meadowlands Racetrack and (original) Giants Stadium built and he likely would have pushed to get a new arena built by the time the complex officially opened in the fall of 1976 for the Knicks and Rangers IF the old Madison Square Garden had simply been renovated during the mid-1960's and the one that replaced Penn Station had never been built because the old Penn Station was never torn down (that arena of course did eventually get built for the Nets that opened as the Brendan Byrne Arena in 1981). Given how many people care about sports, THAT would have been looked at much more negatively than Penn Station being torn down. Speaking of which, one reason there may not have been as much opposition leading up to Penn Station being torn down (as opposed to today) was noted by someone in a group I belong to on Facebook. As that person noted, many people back in the '60s were children of the Great Depression, and many of those looked at what we consider today as important architecture as depressing because of when they grew up, so many of them ripped such out and "modernized" it on those grounds. That to me was why it took tearing down Penn Station to make many realize what was being lost and why we now have the Landmarks Commission. |
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| (1332880) | |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Jan 9 07:31:39 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jan 9 04:33:15 2015. How about this (another poster, I don't remember who, had this idea a few weeks ago...):Deck over the West Side yards, as is being done now, build the new MSG THERE, and keep Penn Station? That could have satisfied everybody... But I guess they lacked imagination in the early 60s... |
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| (1332882) | |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Jan 9 07:34:32 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Jan 7 03:07:51 2015. MSG has practical benefits...but I doubt there would be much sentimentality if it was demolished. |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Jan 9 18:26:59 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Jan 8 20:47:48 2015. There is no mention of Moynihan in some of these articles. But I believe the authors want you to believe in Moynihan staion when the subject does comes up. Otherwise, why keep rehashing what was ripped down 50 years ago that not a whole lot of people remember. |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jan 9 20:15:28 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Jan 9 07:31:39 2015. They certainly did.The problem was, I don't think Gulf + Western, who owned MSG, the Knicks and Rangers at that time would have accepted that, especially given how that area otherwise was rapidly deteriorating as a whole. The likely wanted Penn Station exactly where it was and would have been more likely to build their own arena in the area that became The Meadowlands for the Knicks and Rangers had they not gotten the current MSG. |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jan 9 20:18:47 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by italianstallion on Wed Jan 7 17:31:07 2015. Yes, but I don't think that would have been acceptable to Gulf + Western, who owned MSG and the Knicks and Rangers at that time.And the old MSG could have actually continued for quite some time after the new one opened as mainly a concert venue that seated 12-14,000 and as a backup arena in case of playoff conflicts with other events at the current MSG. |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jan 9 20:20:38 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by SMAZ on Thu Jan 8 15:07:13 2015. Absolutely.And that was at a time when that area was deteriorating as well, though nowhere near as badly as the area around Penn Station had been. Grand Central and other landmarks were saved by what happened to Penn Station. |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jan 9 20:22:26 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by merrick1 on Thu Jan 8 19:14:48 2015. Right, and as soon as the Warriors move to their new building in San Francisco, the current MSG will also be the oldest in use in the NBA.There have already been suggestions of building a new MSG on 9th-10th Avenues and 28th-30th Street. Such a build might spur an addition station on the (7) to be built since there are going to be tracks that extend that far anyway. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jan 9 22:17:15 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by FtGreeneG on Thu Jan 8 14:45:01 2015. maybe they understand that making Penn unusable would not be popular. |
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Posted by pragmatist on Sat Jan 10 07:59:43 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Wallyhorse on Fri Jan 9 20:22:26 2015. Sadly, money will probably play a much greater role than anything else. It is a very old arena, and despite the billion dollar renovation which radically improves the spectator experience as well as key infrastructure, it still has operating inefficiencies (i.e. load in/out) that cannot be overcome because the arena floor is 5 stories up. To help keep the Knicks and Rangers, the State of NY (not NYC) gave them a really good property tax deal. So last year the City Council only extended the MSG permits 10 years which raises hopes of a new building at a different location. But nothing precludes another extension from a City Council and Mayor none of whom are likely to be in their office, that are in office now. I'd love to see a new building, but I shudder to think how many dollars will fly when those deals get made! |
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Posted by FtGreeneG on Sat Jan 10 19:17:11 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by pragmatist on Sat Jan 10 07:59:43 2015. I wonder if they (MSG and whoever is behind the Moynihan Station Proposal) ever considered moving MSG across the street to the Post Office instead of the Moynihan Station and then they can build the Moynihan Station directly above current Penn Station. The new Penn Station will be in its most utilized and old location and MSG is just across the street still in the heart of Midtown Manhattan and maintain its excellent transportation options.PS wherever they build the new MSG they better put in another sunken ceiling, it is iconic. |
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| (1333012) | |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sat Jan 10 22:18:25 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Jan 9 07:31:39 2015. Back then, I don't know how much of the West Side yards was below surface - didn't it link to the High Line? Plus the tracks used diesel power, would it have caused air quality problems in there? |
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| (1333021) | |
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Posted by TerrapiN StatioN on Sun Jan 11 00:36:51 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Fri Jan 9 18:26:59 2015. No. |
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| (1333022) | |
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Posted by TerrapiN StatioN on Sun Jan 11 00:38:54 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by FtGreeneG on Sat Jan 10 19:17:11 2015. I wonder if they (MSG and whoever is behind the Moynihan Station Proposal) ever considered moving MSG across the street to the Post OfficeYes, they have. It was in the news several years ago. |
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| (1333023) | |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jan 11 00:45:34 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by FtGreeneG on Sat Jan 10 19:17:11 2015. Did you know that the Utica Aud is the architectural inspiration for MSG?Yes, there were plans to move MSG across the street. Post office needs the money and they're bleeding $'s, especially on 8th Ave. They have cut back a lot of hours there. |
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| (1333036) | |
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Posted by TerrapiN StatioN on Sun Jan 11 08:10:42 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by 3-9 on Sat Jan 10 22:18:25 2015. The yards were in the same place they are now, AFAIK. |
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| (1333037) | |
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Posted by TerrapiN StatioN on Sun Jan 11 08:13:20 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jan 11 00:45:34 2015. Post office needs the money and they're bleeding $'s, especially on 8th Ave. They have cut back a lot of hours there.Huh? That has nothing to do with it. |
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| (1333047) | |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Jan 11 11:08:02 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by TerrapiN StatioN on Sun Jan 11 08:10:42 2015. The topo map is from maybe 50 years ago, and it definitely shows 11th Ave. passing over the yard tracks. Maybe there are a few more tracks now. |
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| (1333061) | |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Jan 11 14:29:39 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by SMAZ on Thu Jan 8 15:02:00 2015. What would have been nice is is Madison Square garden was built on the land over the yards which they want to develop now further at 10th Ave. You still would have had relatively easy access via corridors to Madison Square Garden from Penn Station, as the platforms do continue at least as far as under the Post Office building.That said, yes, i know the issue back in the 60's....but it's nice to think of what couldve been if Penn Station had remained, and we still got Madison Square Garden. |
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| (1333062) | |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 11 14:32:14 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Jan 11 14:29:39 2015. Then open cut was just 99% covered up in October for buildings that are not to be MSG. |
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Posted by TerrApin Station on Sun Jan 11 15:16:57 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 11 14:32:14 2015. There's still space for it nearby. |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun Jan 11 16:49:47 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by TerrapiN StatioN on Sun Jan 11 08:10:42 2015. It's not the location, it's the elevation. Has it changed between then and now? They really redid stuff when they built the current yards. |
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| (1333087) | |
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Posted by TerrapiN StatioN on Sun Jan 11 17:13:16 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by 3-9 on Sun Jan 11 16:49:47 2015. I don't see how it could have been at a different elevation in the past. Look at the High Line structure. Why would it need to be elevated at that level if the yard was at a higher level in the past? It would have either been at ground level or elevated at a much higher level. |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Jan 11 17:21:01 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by 3-9 on Sun Jan 11 16:49:47 2015. As I pointed out, 11th Ave already passed over the yards 50-60 years ago. How much could the elevation have changed? |
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| (1333089) | |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Sun Jan 11 17:37:07 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by 3-9 on Sun Jan 11 16:49:47 2015. Well, I was referring also to the area between 9th and 10th Avenues, where the tracks out of NYP always passed. Sometime in the 1970s (I think) they built the funny, angle-sided building with the ice skating rink over the tracks in that area.As for the really far west side, I think the old freight yards that later became the LIRR yards, not only do old aerial photos show them as being below street level, I can actually remember as a child (c. 1979-80) when we drove in that area that we were on overpasses, though I didn't know over what... In June 2013, I went over there, and the old concrete bridges are still in place (in the West 30s) where there as no need to disturb or rebuild them. The whole street pattern in that area has bridged over the tracks for a long time. I'd guess as part of the "West Side Improvement" project that gave us the High Line. Again, with imagination, the area could have been decked in the 1960s, putting the air rights to use, rebuilding MSG- and saving Penn Station. As far as all the freight activity that was still going on in the 1960s around there- it was already the Port Authority's master plan (including the WTC) to move everything to NJ. I read that in a book about 4 years ago- I forget the name of it. |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Sun Jan 11 17:41:21 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Jan 7 14:19:47 2015. If they move the Amtrak area to the future Moynihan Station, that could work, as it would separate the 3 railroads in NYP. Long distance travelers could have a better place to wait.And I acknowledge that someone else said this first, but it's a good idea (IMO) and worth repeating. |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun Jan 11 17:56:33 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by AlM on Sun Jan 11 17:21:01 2015. I tried the link but it didn't work for me. I tried NYCityMap, and it did show most everything was below surface. |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun Jan 11 18:29:34 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by pragmatist on Wed Jan 7 17:45:58 2015. What kind of benefits could we expect from a PS to GCT link, compared to what we have now? |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun Jan 11 18:34:43 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by SLRT on Thu Jan 8 12:43:13 2015. The majority, I thought, didn't care, since the station was dirty and not well maintained, and people more or less took the architectural qualities for granted. It was only when it was gone when they realized what they lost. |
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Posted by FtGreeneG on Sun Jan 11 18:40:23 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by TerrapiN StatioN on Sun Jan 11 00:38:54 2015. Ok that does make the most sense. Win win for all involved if MSG is forced to move. |
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| (1333100) | |
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Posted by FtGreeneG on Sun Jan 11 18:43:22 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by LuchAAA on Sun Jan 11 00:45:34 2015. "Did you know that the Utica Aud is the architectural inspiration for MSG?"No did not know that very interesting. But yeah that move makes the most sense for all involved if MSG is forced to move IMO. |
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| (1333102) | |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 11 19:04:14 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by MainR3664 on Sun Jan 11 17:41:21 2015. I do not think Amtrak should move over there as it is a schlep for anyone transferring from the subways and the LIRR.I'd rather MSG get out, remove a rather inefficient and short office building, and build a new Penn Station building where it belongs. |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Jan 11 19:23:59 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 11 19:04:14 2015. How would more space at street level and above improve Penn Station? |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 11 19:33:53 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by AlM on Sun Jan 11 19:23:59 2015. Penn Station is a basement of an office building with low ceilings. It needs tall concourses, no space given over to support them, and the mid block structures removed for more floor space for passengers as well. |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Jan 11 19:50:32 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 11 19:33:53 2015. But why? Street level, where it could have extra space, is a long way from the tracks. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Jan 11 21:05:46 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 11 19:04:14 2015. Second!!! |
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Posted by pragmatist on Sun Jan 11 21:50:23 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by 3-9 on Sun Jan 11 18:29:34 2015. right now it is a 2 subway transfer. single would faster and more convenient. commuter rail options would abound. wishful thinking, but I don't think anyone is holding their breath! |
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Posted by pragmatist on Sun Jan 11 21:53:47 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by MainR3664 on Sun Jan 11 17:37:07 2015. 450 w 33rd is the building. I believe it is being renovated as part of Brookfield Properties "Midtown West" development. Used to play in that rink. Weird to take an elevator to the 16th floor to play hockey. All programs moved to Chelsea Piers, rink is long gone. |
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Posted by 3-9 on Mon Jan 12 01:40:42 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by pragmatist on Sun Jan 11 21:53:47 2015. Yeah, I actually went to that rink to learn ice skating. Wasn't it called the Sky Rink or something? |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Jan 12 06:49:58 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by pragmatist on Sun Jan 11 21:53:47 2015. The Daily News operated out of there in the 1990s as well- I don't know if they still do. |
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| (1333128) | |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Jan 12 07:02:26 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jan 6 07:26:55 2015. Without analyzing the merits of each individual politician we've been talking about, my thought is that sooner or later, every President of any prominence (unless he's into bestiality or some such thing) will get landmarks named after him/her.To me, it's no big deal that there are landmarks named for both Democrats and Republicans. As a middle-of-the-road person, I think most Presidents manage to achieve some good- but also make mistakes, some of them quite awful, along the way. However, most people today probably have no idea who Hugh Carey was, and at best, only a vague notion of who RFK was. With all due respect to the individual accomplishments of either of those men, I would not have named anything prominent for either of them. |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Jan 12 07:06:03 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 6 13:59:35 2015. Correct. It's proper name should be the Outerbridge Bridge. |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 12 07:24:12 2015, in response to Re: Penn Station, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Jan 12 07:02:26 2015. Naming something for Hugh Carey a 2 term Governor and 7 term congressman wasn't unreasonable. Doing it 30 years after he left office didn't make sense. |
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