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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 18:51:07 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 18:48:53 2012.

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Furthermore, that steel is supposed to be encased in the concrete. If the roots have compromised the concrete, which they undoubtedly have, as if there's even one tree on a trestle, the roots are where they shouldn't be, and we are talking about hundreds, the concrete is no longer protecting the steel allowing water to get in. Water deteriorates steel also. It's not immune from the elements. Furthermore, there's been no painting, or other maintenance done to the exposed steel on the trestles either, in over 50 years. Another recipe for deterioration.

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(1155372)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 18:53:11 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue May 8 14:55:48 2012.

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Never said it does, but it most definitely will need to be rebuilt. Maintained trestles would need to be rebuilt in the age that these are, and those that WERE maintained in the last 50 years. It's safe to say they haven't been maintained in over 50 years, as near the end, the LIRR probably didn't do anything more than absolutely necessary maintenance on the line's structure, as they were planning to do away with it. It could be close to 70 years since there was any real maintenance done on those trestles.

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(1155373)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by J trainloco on Tue May 8 18:57:35 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by randyo on Tue May 8 15:13:35 2012.

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Another error is the timeline between the LIRR abandonment of the branch and the city takeover. At the moment,I'm not sure of the exact year but I believe it was around 1952 which,by the way was before the creation of the NYCTA.If the takeover was in 1955 as the report indicated,there would not have been sufficient time for the city to remove the remains of the burned out LIRR trestle,create the landfill and build the completely new bridges in time for the IND opening of the Rockaway Line in the summer of 1956. Also,the photo of the A train crossing over the LIRR which supposedly dates from 1948 is definitely misdated since the A train did not start operating to Lefferts until 1956 and even if one could infer that the R-10 train in the photo was one of the ones assigned to the BMT (which didn't happen until the early 1950s),that would be highly unlikely since in 1948 when the R-10s were brand new they would have still shown the 2 tone grey paint scheme which would still be visible in a B/W photo and not the dark grey steel dust color evident in the photo. Additionally,before the IND connection was built,the only access to the Liberty Av portion of the Fulton el would nave been over the unrebuilt section of the el between Penna Av and Crescent St which would not have been able to sustain the weight of R-10s anyhow.

So putting two and two together from your post:

-Lefferts service didn't start until 1956.
-LIRR service ended in 1952.

So when/where was the photo taken?

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(1155374)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by J trainloco on Tue May 8 19:08:08 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue May 8 08:42:36 2012.

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Thanks for posting. It's an interesting read, but ultimately not much more detailed than a Subchat post. A number of proposals are put forth, but there are no ridership or financial analyses, nor even a simple study of existing capacity of either LIRR or NYCT lines which would connect to the RBB. In his R or V proposal, he even goes as far as to suggest that if the R or V were sent to Rock Park, ALL A trains would then be sent to Far Rock and the C to Lefferts, which makes absolutely NO sense, since if you're sending a full-time Midtown service to the Rockaways, you wouldn't need to send even more A trains there. If anything, the A could send even fewer trains to the Rockaways and more to Lefferts, but there's no reason to increase the Rockaways service from a peak of 10 A trains to 15 A trains and 10 QB locals.

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(1155378)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 19:19:53 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by J trainloco on Tue May 8 18:57:35 2012.

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LIRR service to Ozone Park ended in 1962, the part that's still abandoned.



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(1155379)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 19:20:47 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by randyo on Tue May 8 15:13:35 2012.

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NYCT/MTA owns the line from Liberty junction to the Rockaways. The City of New York owns the line from Whitepot to Liberty Junction.

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(1155380)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 19:21:56 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon May 7 14:32:25 2012.

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There absolutely was underpinning for the 6th Ave el when they were building the 6th Ave subway.

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(1155381)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 19:23:58 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by ClearAspect on Mon May 7 14:54:35 2012.

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The BQE doesn't even meet Interstate Highway Standards

Yet without this road, the city would be paralized. It's very hard to build a real highway through a dense urban environment. There would have had to have been even more destruction had they made the road even wider.

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(1155384)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 19:26:49 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Edwards! on Tue May 8 09:35:11 2012.

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Not to mention, the LIRR was trying to get rid of the line for years before it actually did. It's safe to say that even though the line was abandoned 50 years (exactly this year), that maintenance was held to a bare minimum throughout the 50's leading up to the abandonment. It's safe to say it's been almost 70 years since any real maintenance was done to the trestles/infrastructure on the line.

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(1155385)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 19:27:50 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue May 8 15:16:23 2012.

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They do routine inspections on the bridges so they don't fall to the roadway below....yes, but that doesn't mean the same type of inspections they would be doing on the bridges if it had heavy trains running over them every 10 minutes.

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(1155389)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by ClearAspect on Tue May 8 19:44:49 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 18:51:07 2012.

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What you're talking about is in the areas compromised and those can be repaired and new concrete poured and new steel welded in. If not pre built bridges can be assembled off site and delivered and install, railway bridges over streets aren't very complicated. Once again you're talking about things that are obvious. What I'm trying to state is that the task of tree removal is not difficult since in the rebuilding of the roadbed they have to get down to the subsoil where the roots are and remove them anyway. In no way, shape, or form did I ever imply that they simple cut the tree, pour ballast and lay rail. Once again DOT must do some time of inspections or basic maintenance, to prove that go on google earth. Zoom in to street level and go to the bridge over Atlantic Avenue and look at the concrete underneath the bridge then go to 97th Avenue and go under the bridge and you'll see signs of new paint and once again very little concrete cracking.

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(1155392)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue May 8 20:04:06 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 05:29:21 2012.

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Another thought that occurred to me is that in many cases, the trees may actually be what is holding the structures together! Remove them, and the whole thing might tumble to the ground.

By the time whatever is needed is done, replacement may be less expensive and simpler than repair.

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(1155393)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by ClearAspect on Tue May 8 20:10:42 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue May 8 20:04:06 2012.

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Wrong on the first part.

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(1155405)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by J trainloco on Tue May 8 21:34:01 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue May 8 20:04:06 2012.

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By the time whatever is needed is done,replacement may be less expensive and simpler than repair.

Considering what was just done on the Atlantic Avenue El, any thought that the existing Rockaway beach Branch's existing structure can be used as is without extensive modifications is a dream.

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(1155406)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by J trainloco on Tue May 8 21:34:57 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 19:19:53 2012.

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Ah, thanks.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Edwards! on Tue May 8 22:17:57 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by clearaspect on Sun May 6 17:07:31 2012.

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HUH?

There you go..
look at the "demographics"..and look at the need...
You can PLAY at building a rail road..but that doesn't mean diddly squat compared to the needs of REAL RIDERS...

The LINE is needed..the ONLY REASON WHY ITS not up and running yet is due to some weak willed bullshit not backbone politicians..PLUS the fact its NOT IN MANHATTAN where all the new subway money seems to go.

Fancy number crunching..whatever..this town lacks back bone..being run into the ground by some selfish bitches..not cool.
you complaining about 2 billion dollars?
Where were you when they put that money into the ground for the ESA? or the cost overuns with that and the SAS? OR THE FACT THAT COST OVERRUNS CANCELLED THE 10 AVENUE STATION on the Flushing line?

pick and chose your battles carefully in these dark times..

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by ClearAspect on Tue May 8 22:43:26 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Edwards! on Tue May 8 22:17:57 2012.

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ESA benefits a helluva lot more riders than that Woodhaven Blvd line would... thats a fact. So lets get that one out of the way. If there was a truly high demand for rail use

1. The line wouldn't have been abandoned
2. The MTA, the IND or the BMT could've easily brought the line after it was abandoned and built a line but they chose not too.

I hate the cost overruns I despise that the MTA doesn't put these construction companies balls to the fire and hold them accountable for the delays.

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(1155427)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by J trainloco on Tue May 8 23:16:50 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by ClearAspect on Tue May 8 22:43:26 2012.

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I hate the cost overruns I despise that the MTA doesn't put these construction companies balls to the fire and hold them accountable for the delays.

There's a propensity on this site to always blame contractors for delays on projects. I get the feeling that most Subchatters don't know what usually causes these delays, or what goes into managing construction. Yes, sometimes the contractors are to blame. Not all the time though.

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(1155430)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 23:30:11 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by ClearAspect on Tue May 8 22:43:26 2012.

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1. The line wouldn't have been abandoned

The line was not suited towards rapid transit, but rather, commuter railroad, and that was the problem, as the line is ridiculous as a commuter railroad line running a few trains a day. It should be a rapid transit line with many trains per hour.

2. The MTA, the IND or the BMT could've easily brought the line after it was abandoned and built a line but they chose not too.

The BMT was dying in the 50's. In that era people were looking towards cars and roads, and not for railroads and trains. In fact they were looking to get rid of the latter.

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(1155452)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Edwards! on Wed May 9 01:47:58 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by ClearAspect on Tue May 8 22:43:26 2012.

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the Woodhaven line will be the ONLY NORTH SOUTH CROSS QUEENS ROUTE,connecting both sides of the boro by rail,without travel miles out of the way.

Heres where your logic fails..
The LIRR wanted to dump the line as early as the 1920,when they caught wind of the planned IND SYSTEM line through mid QUEENS COUNTY to Jamaica..along with its planned branches..they also tried to dump the Whitestone Branch on the city too..

They were BROKE..needed money..and the sale would help them out at least a short while.The city purchased the line..but did nothing with the norther end..keeping the LIRR in use as far as Ozone.
It was the LIRR that finally abandoned the line in 1962..when passengers were still using the route..when they were slowly abandoning their city services all over...all the while the TA rebuilt the southern end for subway service.

Who are you?where have you been that you didnt know this?
The city DID purchase the line during the 50s[i believe it was in 1952]with the deferred Second Av funds that built the...
11th st cut,
the Chrystie st cut..
rebuilt the Rockaway line south..
the overpass connecting the Dyre line to the West Farms..
the 6th ave Express tunnel..
the 148TH St terminal..rebuilt the Dekalb ave interchange..
and the 57th st station.

The city of NY OWNS the right of way just like it owns the subway..not the MTA.

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(1155453)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Edwards! on Wed May 9 01:50:21 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 23:30:11 2012.

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EXACTLY..who ever he is..he doesn't really "get it"..yet...especially since he said the "MTA should have purchased the line"

But he will.

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(1155461)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by TERRapin station on Wed May 9 06:51:25 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue May 8 08:45:52 2012.

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Excellent post! Several people here seem to have trouble understanding the differences between opinions and facts.

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(1155467)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed May 9 07:13:47 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Andrew Saucci on Tue May 8 20:04:06 2012.

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You are correct.

And the tree almost always wins, and the roots do the same idea:









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(1155468)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed May 9 07:15:57 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by J trainloco on Tue May 8 21:34:01 2012.

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Exactly correct.

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(1155469)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed May 9 07:20:26 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Edwards! on Wed May 9 01:47:58 2012.

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You are correct except for the last sentence. While the City of NY does in fact own the line from Whitepot to Liberty Junction, the MTA does in fact own the southern end of the line from Liberty Junction to the Rockaways. The MTA owns most of the lines on private ROW. For example, I looked up the M line, the part which runs over private ROW and not roads, and it's also owned by the MTA, not the City of New York.

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(1155480)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by ClearAspect on Wed May 9 09:00:03 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed May 9 07:13:47 2012.

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Those aren't THICK steel beams

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(1155481)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by ClearAspect on Wed May 9 09:01:29 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by J trainloco on Tue May 8 23:16:50 2012.

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I understand that there are a lot of unexpected things that can occur during bridge or tunnel construction, but for projects to fall YEARS behind. Is very worrysome.

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(1155483)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by ClearAspect on Wed May 9 09:09:56 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Edwards! on Wed May 9 01:47:58 2012.

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Once again your logic fails, but I'll but it firmly back in place.

1. None of the Woodhaven Blvd routes even crack the top 10 busiest routes. On Woodhaven Blvd they run a max of 18 buses per hour during the rush or a bus every 3 minutes. If we took that into trains, all the tracks would need are 2 full length trains per rush hour to handle the entire rush hour crowd.

2. As for that, its common knowledge, but the BMT and IND could've easily brought the line and its rights before hand and converted them into Rapid Transit Service. They chose not too, take a gander as to why? Read my first point.

3, It't not worth the cost to reactivate the line when bus service is sufficient enough to handle the crowd.


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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Wed May 9 09:33:35 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by ClearAspect on Wed May 9 09:00:03 2012.

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There are joints in beems. Roots get under plates. Rusty steel. Rusty bolts. Tree wins.

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(1155487)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by ClearAspect on Wed May 9 09:34:28 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Wed May 9 09:33:35 2012.

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You sure about that? Can you find pics of that?

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(1155492)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Wed May 9 09:40:58 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by ClearAspect on Wed May 9 09:34:28 2012.

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You obviously dont know what happens to sreel when its not maintained for almost 70 years.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by tunnelrat on Wed May 9 12:49:13 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Joe V on Tue May 8 17:20:28 2012.

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its 3 1/2 miles from whitepot to liberty junction.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Edwards! on Wed May 9 12:52:08 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed May 9 07:20:26 2012.

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Hold on...
The MTA does not "own" any portion of the NYCTA. They do indeed lease the system from the city..set policy as the administrator...but can be ousted by the City of NY in the same manor Nassau County did to them..although such a move would need the okay from the city council and mayor..and a year's notice..

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Edwards! on Wed May 9 13:35:10 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by ClearAspect on Wed May 9 09:09:56 2012.

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LOL...!

The BMT?
They couldn't save themselves from city take over! How were they suppose to buy a line from the LIRR..when they were in financial trouble for years?
Losing money hand over fist cause of the 5 cent fare..lack of the another midtown route..debt service to the city..and share holders!

The IND? LOL!
They could barely get the 1st system built!
They 8th avenue line was finished by 1930 and couldn't open due to the fact the city didn't want to be the operator!They tried to pawn the system off on the BMT,But they wouldn't take on the extra debt or responsibility..They were in no position to run more trains..especially after before and after receivership [they were forced into it].

The IND managed to build the local track tunnels right up to the LIRR Rockaway branch..all they needed to do was built the portals for the connections,yet they never did. Why?
The city was receiving WPA LOANS for completing the IND SYSTEM at the time..the FIRST SYSTEM..originally layed out in the early 20's..
The Rego Park line was a second system route..part of a system that was unfunded and remained so until the 1950's when SOME of the routes were[I already mentioned those to you].

Also..have you taken into consideration that perhaps the Woodhaven lines traffic is so light because riders know something you don't?
Forced to find some other means of getting across town due to the lack of rail or adequate bus service..turned to car service or their own cars,which is why Woodhaven Blvd is ALWAYS choked with traffic?

Its worth the cost..every car a train pulls off the street is worth it.You offer the riding public a viable alternative,They will use it.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by TUNNELRAT on Wed May 9 13:41:56 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Edwards! on Wed May 9 13:35:10 2012.

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TUNNELS WERE NOT BUILT UP TO WHITE POT JUNCTION.THEY WERE BUILT,AND I,M GUESSING AT THIS, SEVERAL HUNDRED FEET DOWN 66TH.AVE.LONG ENOUGH TO LAYUP A 10 CAR TRAIN.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Edwards! on Wed May 9 13:52:54 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by TUNNELRAT on Wed May 9 13:41:56 2012.

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why the caps,dude?

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by TUNNELRAT on Wed May 9 13:54:11 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Edwards! on Wed May 9 13:52:54 2012.

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wrong button,dude.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by randyo on Wed May 9 14:39:39 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 23:30:11 2012.

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The BMT ceased to exist as a separate entity in 1940 when it became a division of the NYCTS and was therefore unable to take over any operation on its own. As for the IND taking it over, it too was a constituent part of the NYCTs and the takeover prior to the creation of the MTA would have had to be done by the City of NY.

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(1155548)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by randyo on Wed May 9 14:55:50 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by TUNNELRAT on Wed May 9 13:41:56 2012.

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How far away from the LIRR RBB ROW would you say the ends of the tunnels are? The several hundred ft you describe could bring them pretty close. Ball parking it, I would say that a 10 car train would be about 2 blocks long.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by randyo on Wed May 9 14:58:47 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 19:21:56 2012.

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Although that was definitely the case, considering all the problems encountered in the construction of the 6 Av subway, if there were the same type of delays that are being encountered by the SAS, the gap between the loss of 6 Av el service and the start of 6 Av subway service could have been a lot longer.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by randyo on Wed May 9 15:01:12 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by J trainloco on Tue May 8 18:57:35 2012.

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The photo was definitely taken in the immediate vicinity of Liberty Jct and based on the timeline for the cessation of LIRR service to Ozone Pk, somewhere between 1956 and 1962.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by randyo on Wed May 9 15:03:29 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 19:20:47 2012.

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As was mentioned in several posts, the NYCT/MTA does not actually own any subway infrastructure. It merely has the contract to operate and manage lines operating over the NYCTS which is owned by the City of NY.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Joe V on Wed May 9 17:05:22 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by ClearAspect on Wed May 9 09:01:29 2012.

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Shoulda settled for escalators at Hunterspoint Av and called it a day.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Joe V on Wed May 9 17:08:26 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by randyo on Wed May 9 14:39:39 2012.

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For what the City spent on converting the existing Rockaway Line to subway operation, in addition to landfilling the bridges, the whole line should have simply been rebuilt up to White Pot and turned back over to the LIRR.

The book "Change at Ozone Park" said the majority of the cost of restoration was converting to subway operation, not restoring it as a working RR.

But spending money for a bankrupt RR owned by another RR in Philadelphia was not politically possible.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by 3-9 on Wed May 9 18:00:09 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Joe V on Wed May 9 17:08:26 2012.

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Rebuilt with what? Part of the reason for the rebuilding was the replacement of the wooden trestles and pilings. After that, the signal equipment would have had to have been replaced with IND stuff.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by randyo on Wed May 9 18:18:35 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Joe V on Wed May 9 17:08:26 2012.

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When the LIRR did its grade crossing elimination in the 1930s in Rockaway, it was done with the line's eventual takeover by the city for IND use in mind. The Rockaway el structures were even built in a similar style to the 9 St concrete encased el structure for that reason.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by R 36 ML 9542 on Wed May 9 18:42:10 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by randyo on Wed May 9 15:03:29 2012.

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I can't find any pictures of the Ozone Park station track level on this branch and I also can't find where the line went from 2 tracks to 4 tracks? Help?

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Edwards! on Wed May 9 19:59:58 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by J trainloco on Tue May 8 18:57:35 2012.

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LIRR service ended in 1962..IND service to Lefferts started in April of 1956,with Rockaway service beginning in the summer.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Joe V on Wed May 9 20:09:00 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by randyo on Wed May 9 18:18:35 2012.

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Actually, the Rockaway Peninsula structure resembles Lynbrook.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Joe V on Wed May 9 20:10:36 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by 3-9 on Wed May 9 18:00:09 2012.

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You miss the point. The rebuilding over Jamaica Bay was the cheap part. Converting to subway operation, with signals and substations, was the expensive part which need not have been done if turned back to the LIRR to run.

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