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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon May 14 22:13:04 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by J trainloco on Mon May 14 13:12:17 2012.

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"I would have a car parked somewhere near a PATH station in New Jersey, and when i'm going out of town for a short trip, I would take the train to my car."

My original plan was to park in Long island City and make one subway trip to recover the package, but I realized that I would also need the defective unit besides, and I figured two subway trips would have been just as much trouble as one car trip, so I modified the plan. But I have often parked by the subway and gone to Manhattan from there. The Court Square parking garage plus a round trip on the subway is far cheaper than a midtown parking garage, and besides, I hate valet parking.



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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by J trainloco on Mon May 14 22:15:37 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon May 14 20:19:14 2012.

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If that's the case, a Rockaway Beach branch won't help unless its rebuilt with connections FROM THE EAST at its junction with LIRR's Atlantic Branch... and I don't see anyone clamoring for that.

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(1156690)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon May 14 22:40:31 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by J trainloco on Mon May 14 15:17:22 2012.

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I don't see how a limited stop A train could work. When they had the Train to the Plane, there was no A exprees in Brooklyn during non-rush hours. So what are they proposing? Make everyone else suffer by having to ride local so they could have their non-stop express?

The Rockaway Line will cut travel time to Midtown even if it is not a direct ride.

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(1156726)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue May 15 06:48:10 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by J trainloco on Mon May 14 14:39:53 2012.

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Again, that is now:

It might very well be by the time we see shovels in the ground on a Convention Center, a condition of it is helping to pay for the rebuild of Rockaway branch to Queens Boulevard as with the Convention Center, that likely will be necessary one way or the other.

I also as noted elsewhere think it will prove to be much cheaper to build the center across the tracks from the current Racetrack-Casino and connect most of it to the existing racetrack and casino (as well as the subway), rather than building it at Aqueduct since that would also require winterizing Belmont Park, building a winterized grandstand in front of the training track (that likely would become the winter racing track) or building an entirely new facility to replace Aqueduct. There is a large swath of mostly-deserted land on the opposite side of the tracks from Aqueduct that would allow for minimal relocation of residents that can be used for most of the convention center as it is.

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(1156728)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 15 07:01:24 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon May 14 22:09:16 2012.

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I can't agree. Even with all the horrors driving and parking in Manhattan may be, it's still often faster and more convenient than having to deal with the train schedule, except at rush hours.

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(1156802)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by 3-9 on Tue May 15 16:00:53 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by J trainloco on Mon May 14 22:15:37 2012.

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A Rockaway Beach branch can have a transfer with the J, which could make a fairly convenient route. Of course, a shuttle bus would be much cheaper.

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(1156807)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue May 15 16:33:12 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat May 12 21:48:51 2012.

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What I think may very well wind up happening is paying some of the freight for rebuilding the Rockaway line is part of a condition of the Convention Center being built there (again, I suspect it will actually be across the tracks from Aqueduct with connections via a bridge over the tracks to the subway, racetrack and casino because it would be cheaper to do that way).

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(1156813)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Joe V on Tue May 15 17:01:03 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by 3-9 on Tue May 15 16:00:53 2012.

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That would be a messy transfer, walk 4 blocks along Jamaica Avenue.

Brooklyn Manor station would have other uses, like remove some people off the Q11.

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(1156819)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by randyo on Tue May 15 18:01:12 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Joe V on Tue May 15 17:01:03 2012.

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Of course, a transfer between the J and the Rocky Bch branch might require relocation of the 103 St station a bit west to 101 St and create a new station complex for transfer between the 2 lines. The same should be done with the A Line at the 104 St station. That would also require replacing the old LIRR Ozone Pk station with a new station under the LIberty Av El so that passengers can transfer between those lines as well.

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(1156825)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by J trainloco on Tue May 15 19:06:58 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon May 14 22:40:31 2012.

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I think we can all agree that a limited stop A will not work unless you do something really bizarre, like making the express tracks exclusive to these limited stop trains. Genting made it clear that their aim was to reduce travel time, they stated that they hoped a limited stop train would cut the travel time in half from Fulton Street. I don't think that's possible, nor do I think that a Rockaway Beach train would make it feasible. I do believe that the Rockaway ROW is a valuable asset that should be reactivated, but as to how useful it will be for Genting, and whether it will be worth their while to contribute anything to rebuilding it, I'm a lot less convinced about that.

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(1156830)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 15 20:03:43 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by J trainloco on Tue May 15 19:06:58 2012.

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Good post.

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(1156833)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 15 20:18:56 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by randyo on Tue May 15 18:01:12 2012.

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As I mentioned http://www.subchat.com/read.asp?Id=1154428, I would suggest abandoning both the Woodhaven and 104th St stations, and rebuilding one station closer together nearer to the Rockaway line (see copy and paste of that post for elaboration, it's not as severe as it sounds).
It's somewhat similar to what should have been done on Broadway with the Hewes and Lorimer St stations being abandoned for a new station at Union to easy transfer with the G. It would give G riders another option for connection to Manhattan, especially with the M going to Midtown now. But anyway, here's the copy and paste of my suggestion for a new Woodhaven Blvd station on the J line in a slightly different spot:

104th St and Woodhaven Blvd are both to far from the Rockaway Branch to connect with a station there, a transfer that would be vital to the Rockaway Branch.
I would perhaps suggest abandoning both the Woodhaven station, and the 104th St station, and building a new station at the Rockaway Branch called "Woodhaven Blvd", with it's east end at 98th St, with a connection to the Rockaway Branch, and it's west end at 94th St, a block away from Woodhaven Blvd itself, and which would be around where the east end of the current Woodhaven Blvd station is now. This would allow the continuation of a station at Woodhaven Blvd, as well as a connection to the new station on the Rockaway Branch.
The new station on the Jamaica el wouldn't be too hard to make, as it would just be a side platform station with the platforms hanging off the side of the el as it does now.
If you want to get really fancy, it could be rebuilt as an express station, in coordination with adding a third track to the Jamaica El, another necessary project.


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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by randyo on Wed May 16 14:43:49 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 15 20:18:56 2012.

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Good point. I though that the 103 St station was a little closer but it would make sense that the station that is closest to the Rocky Bch branch should be the one that is moved. Even if the new or relocated station is not built as an express station per se, the station could be built as a single island platform station between the 2 existing tracks.

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(1156950)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Joe V on Wed May 16 16:48:16 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by randyo on Wed May 16 14:43:49 2012.

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Be easier just to add a 102nd Street mezzanine back, and rip out the 104th Street one, which is what they should have done in the 1st place.

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(1156955)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by randyo on Wed May 16 17:01:09 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Joe V on Wed May 16 16:48:16 2012.

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Would it be close enough to a transfer station on the Rocky Bch ROW however?

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(1156956)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Joe V on Wed May 16 17:20:42 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by randyo on Wed May 16 17:01:09 2012.

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It's 2-1/2 blocks. We have worse. Building a new station is too expensive. It will be hard enough scraping up money for the Rockaway line rebuilding, besides justifying it. Besides, 98th Street to 111th is too far apart.



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(1157045)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu May 17 11:46:45 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Joe V on Wed May 16 17:20:42 2012.

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2 1/2 blocks is an awkward transfer.

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(1157066)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by randyo on Thu May 17 15:13:32 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu May 17 11:46:45 2012.

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However, out there those blocks are relatively short. I would imagine that the actual walking distance between the 14 St station on the 7 Av IRT and the 6 Av station on the 14 St Line as well as the transfer between the BMT/IRT at T/Sq and the 42/8 station on the IND is about the same, not to mention Court Sq on the G to 23/Ely on the E.

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(1157073)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Joe V on Thu May 17 16:38:23 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by randyo on Thu May 17 15:13:32 2012.

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Lex 63rd - 68th Lex: how far is that ? (It's a MC transfer).

What is good about Woodhaven Blvd station is that it straddles that road, so one can use the platform to avoid crossing as a pedestrian, which has its risks. Make the east end of the current station the west end of the new station, and that advantage goes away.


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(1157075)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by randyo on Thu May 17 16:50:13 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Joe V on Thu May 17 16:38:23 2012.

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How can anyone use the platform to cross Woodhaven Blvd without spending a fare to enter the system?

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Joe V on Thu May 17 16:56:36 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by randyo on Thu May 17 16:50:13 2012.

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For those getting on/off the J train, you head to/from whichever mezzanine that avoids crossing that road. I lived 2 blocks up on 94th Street in the 1960's - I know the drill.

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(1157077)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by randyo on Thu May 17 16:58:33 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Joe V on Thu May 17 16:38:23 2012.

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I checked Google maps and the only entrance to Woodhaven Blvd is on the west side of the blvd so moving the station so that the west end of it is on the east side of the blvd is non consequential. However, moving the next station farther west is a better option since it would be closer to its original location.

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(1157082)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by randyo on Thu May 17 17:09:12 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Joe V on Thu May 17 16:56:36 2012.

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I looked at the Google street photo and there is only one set of stairways onto Woodhaven Blvd and those are on the west side of the blvd so it is impossible to use the mezzanine to avoid crossing the blvd.

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(1157083)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by randyo on Thu May 17 17:15:09 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by randyo on Thu May 17 16:58:33 2012.

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I took another look at the Google street view and if 102/104 St station were moved so that the east stairways came onto 102 St, the west end of that station would be in just the right place for stairways down to a rebuilt an slightly relocated to the north Bkln Manor station probably renamed "Jamaica Av" since most of the residents in the area probably don't remember the original LIRR station anyway.

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(1157086)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Joe V on Thu May 17 18:14:57 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by randyo on Thu May 17 17:09:12 2012.

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No, but you use the platform getting on and off the train to avoid crossing the blvd.

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(1157089)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Joe V on Thu May 17 18:22:04 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by randyo on Thu May 17 17:15:09 2012.

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You need to have read "The Story of Woodhaven & Ozone Park" by Seyfried. Probably unavailable. I got mine in boating store in Greenport in 1993.

Most of the houses around there went up in the 1910's with a target of people from Brooklyn. So the realtors called the area "Brooklyn Manor" to entice them.

When lived there, went to PS 166 in the early '60s, the area was 100% white. Now it is overwhelmingly Hispanic, with some Asian and Indian. So no, no one knows about what train trestle over Jamaica Av and Park Lane South is or was.

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(1157115)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu May 17 22:56:03 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Joe V on Thu May 17 16:38:23 2012.

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But how many people would/do actually do that?

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