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(1155128)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by ClearAspect on Mon May 7 15:22:02 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Mon May 7 14:56:14 2012.

Weather causes the concrete the crumble naturally, heating, chills, the expansion and contractions over time inevitably cause cracks, this is called fatigue cracking and once water gets into those cracks and freezes in the winter the cracks become bigger. Usually steel rebar exposed will rust and expand causing further cracking in the area where the concrete is compromised. However there is a point where it stops because stress has been released in the cracking of the concrete and the rust isn't a disease it doesn't spread far from its origin, rather where the steel is exposed. So what will happen is that the engineers will test the integrity of the walls, visual inspection results, strain measurements, acoustic emission (AE) monitoring, ultrasonic scanning (UT) and related types of nondestructive testing (NDT) like dye penetrant tests (PT), magnetic particle (MT) tests, ultrasonic (UT) scanning and acoustic emission (AE) monitoring. See where the steel is exposed and usually do a patch job where the concrete will be removed, if the engineers determine that its not that severe, the steel rebar replaced and then new concrete poured again. Sometimes nature taking over may give the structure an increased life because its not taking the loads and stresses it used to take when heavy trains ran over them, nor are they exposed (mainly in road bridges) to things like road salt or other things that could destroy the steel faster than natural forces could. So you could be right but I've walked along that line and a lot of the steel looks to be in good shape. I hope it could be salvaged rather than needing a full replacement.

(1155134)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by randyo on Mon May 7 15:38:07 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon May 7 12:15:31 2012.

Not necessarily. Don't forget that Moses started his empire during the depression when federal funds were being made available for any public works project deemed worthy and some of the IND lines were built with WPA funds. Chicago is a prime example of a city that was able to build highways as well as rapid transit lines in such a way as to provide and efficient multi modal transportation system. The actual planning of Chicago's Congress Expwy was started in the late 1930s around the same time as construction was started on the State and dearborn subways. Although the State St subway was opened in 1943, the completion of the Dearborn subway was deferred until well after the end of WWII. However, the plan to connect the Dearborn subway with the Congress Expwy was, as I said envisioned long before its actual completion. It wasn't until the Eisenhower administration in the 1950s that federal funds were dedicated strictly to the construction of highways and away from mass transportation. If a person with Moses' political clout had wanted federal money for rapid transit, then it would have been provided. Don't forget that it it usually the part of the country the President comes from that gets most of the benefits and since FDR was from NY, NY and the northeast would be the main recipients of WPA and other federal monies.

(1155157)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by JAFO on Mon May 7 17:58:50 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by randyo on Mon May 7 15:38:07 2012.

Looking at some old aerial photos from the 40s, this ROW from Rego Park to Howard Beach was four tracks wide.

LIRR and MTA are unlikely to have given up their precious ROW in the past, so why can't this ROW be rebuilt for 4 tracks again?

Two tracks for LIRR from Aqueduct Casino and JFK /Howard Beach to Rego Park connection (using half of the reactivated ROW) and express to Manhattan;

Two tracks for MTA to run Rockaway service (A) trains as is already being done, and another route from Rockaway to the 63 Dr - Rego Park bellmouths (using the other half of reactivated ROW) to connect with Queens Blvd.

(1155158)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Fisk ave Jim on Mon May 7 18:08:16 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Mon May 7 07:24:30 2012.

Then the MTA should go in & knock down "the hill" as the local Woodhaven residents refer to the row that goes thru their backyards & put an end of all this fantasy. Once thats gone, all speculation about train service will be gone too. As long as the row is prettymuch intact,you'll have this subject come up from time to time. Thats just the way it is.

You'll see trains running on MNRs Beacon line long before anything other than hikers go down the Rockaway line

(1155160)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by J trainloco on Mon May 7 18:08:55 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by AMoreira81 on Fri May 4 20:13:59 2012.

You might as well include the B35 as well. The B46 basically serves a similar function.

The worst part of these bus trips is that they are often painfully slow. The B25 takes slightly more than 50 minutes to get from the Junction to Jay street downtown. The C only takes 20. Crosstown grade separated rail lines would serve as far more efficient feeders for the manhattan lines, but also make crosstown travel in the boroughs much more convenient and efficient

(1155161)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by randyo on Mon May 7 18:11:58 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by JAFO on Mon May 7 17:58:50 2012.

I believe that the line was only 2 tracks in the area of Rego Pk and only went to 4 tracks near Ozone Pk probably due to its junction with the LIRR line under Atlantic Av near Woodhaven Blvd. There are photos of the Bkln Manor station which is near the Jamaica el which show it as being only 2 tracks. It was definitely 4 tracks by the time it reached Ozone Pk.

(1155162)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by randyo on Mon May 7 18:13:19 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by JAFO on Mon May 7 17:58:50 2012.

I believe that the line was only 2 tracks in the area of Rego Pk and only went to 4 tracks near Ozone Pk probably due to its junction with the LIRR line under Atlantic Av near Woodhaven Blvd. There are photos of the Bkln Manor station which is near the Jamaica el which show it as being only 2 tracks. It was definitely 4 tracks by the time it reached Ozone Pk.

(1155165)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by randyo on Mon May 7 18:34:42 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by JAFO on Mon May 7 17:58:50 2012.

I checked Google maps regarding my response to your post and it looks like my description was right on the money. There is a viaduct for the LIRR ROW that is 2 tracks wide passing over Atlantic Av and S/O that point, the path of the ROW coming from the LIRR line under Atlantic can be plainly seen and from that point on, the line became 4 tracks. Thee rest of the ROW N/O Atlantic is only 2 tracks wide.

(1155167)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Dyre Dan on Mon May 7 18:49:24 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by randyo on Sun May 6 16:27:56 2012.

>> Then the R as you have reconfigured it could no longer use that letter since R means 4 Av.

It should no longer use the letter R, but it certainly could, since the MTA has shown that it really doesn't care about the "original meanings" of the various letter designations. But the 4th Ave. local has always been a local in Manhattan as well. I doubt they'd want a 6th Ave. (Manhattan) express to be the 4th Ave. (Brooklyn) local. Plus the D has gone to Coney Island by one route or another, at least on weekends, ever since 1954 (except during the Manhattan Bridge reconstruction). While the pairing of north and south terminals is usually unimportant, this is one that was, at least initially, promoted quite publicly.

But the pairing of terminals for the M certainly is unimportant. So if the Rockaway Beach line is reactivated, let the M run in a spiral path from Metropolitan Ave. to Rockaway Park via Aqueduct, and leave the other trains alone.


(1155175)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Mon May 7 19:42:36 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by randyo on Mon May 7 15:07:32 2012.

Also, does anyone know the last time the city and MTA publicly stated that there are no plans to resurrect the line?

Wasn't this not discussed but a few weeks ago here???

Again, I'd love nothing more than to see a rail line return to service, but the fact is there are not actual plans to reinstate service, it was commented barely a month ago that there are no plans to reinstate service on the line, and the costs of rebuilding this line would be quite high, and there is no real certainty the ridership will be there, and if it gets tied into the LIRR, the question will there be room for more trains serving this line, and will the equipment to cover the additional service to this renewed line be available??

Yes, it is simply a railfan dream, one of the many constantly brought up here.

(1155177)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Mon May 7 19:46:56 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Mon May 7 19:42:36 2012.

Randyo......

If this line should be tied into the NYCT system, what line(s) would it get tied into??? Will the capacity to handle the additional service be available, especially if tied into the already congested Queens Division (E,J,G,M,R; the Queens Blvd Corridor in particular), as had been discussed previously?? And will equipment availablity for a new service here be in place to adequately cover the service?? Too much uncertainty.

(1155178)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Mon May 7 19:49:56 2012, in response to Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed May 2 15:00:34 2012.

Stop me if I am wrong, but isn't White Pot Junction in Rego Park, not Kew Gardens?? And at what point does the Rockaway Line go thru Kew Gardens??

(1155181)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Mon May 7 19:57:57 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by ClearAspect on Mon May 7 15:22:02 2012.

Well, I guess we will have the answers if these tests are ever done, providing any decision has been made to do anything much with this line. I would not say for a second this will ever happen in our lifetime, if ever at all.

(1155185)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon May 7 20:06:26 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by JAFO on Mon May 7 17:58:50 2012.

The line was never 4 tracks between Rego Park and Ozone Park.

(1155186)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon May 7 20:07:22 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by randyo on Mon May 7 15:38:07 2012.

Most cities were expanding their roads/bridges in that era, and NY needed to do that to be a modern city. Most cities were not seeking funds for transit in that era. NY was no different.

(1155188)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by ClearAspect on Mon May 7 20:13:54 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon May 7 20:07:22 2012.

Perhaps we should appeal to Apple to build a privatized Second Avenue Subway Line.

(1155195)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon May 7 20:34:39 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Wallyhorse on Sun May 6 23:31:25 2012.

Another option is simply to eliminate winter racing in New York, which is patently silly anyway. With NYCOTB gone, it isn't that far-fetched a notion, as OTB is one big reason why winter racing was created in the 1970's. In that case, Aqueduct is not needed, and not even minor renovations would be necessary to accomodate the 2,000 or so diehards that would head for Belmont to freeze their rear ends off watching cheap maiden claimers in January. Winter racing can be conducted at a studio site anywhere, likely somewhere with inexpensive real estate. Before OTB, horses went south for the winter, like the birds, and migrated north again in the spring.

Oh, for the days of the LIRR racetrack specials to Roosevelt Raceway!

(1155196)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Edwards! on Mon May 7 20:35:37 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun May 6 10:18:07 2012.

uhh huh...so what?

we know that will have to happen in order top rebuild the line into a modern rail line.

(1155197)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Edwards! on Mon May 7 20:37:50 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun May 6 10:25:24 2012.

money talks..and if its wanted bad enough..it will get built regardless of what the nimbys whine about..

(1155216)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Mon May 7 22:21:42 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Mon May 7 14:58:21 2012.

Yes, of course. That would have to be done if the line is rebuilt.

(1155226)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Michael549 on Tue May 8 01:37:20 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by J trainloco on Mon May 7 18:08:55 2012.

Please note that often such parallel bus and subway routings serve different types of riders. The B25 Bus along Fulton Street serves many elderly riders, handicapped riders and students who would not use the subway for similar trips.

Just making a note.
Mike

(1155239)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 05:21:22 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Michael549 on Tue May 8 01:37:20 2012.

That is a great point. There are many elderly, and handicapped, etc that would NEVER use the subway.

(1155240)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 05:25:34 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by clearaspect on Sun May 6 16:43:08 2012.

The trees go just beyond the trees you see. The routes have also enfested the ROW, and compromised it. You can't just cut them down, and they are gone. All the roots have to be dug out. If not, as the roots rot over a few years, they would create sinkholes in the rail line. Roots also compromise concrete structure that weren't designed to have trees on it. All the bridges are most likely compromised from 50+ years of trees growing on them, which weren't designed for tree roots.

(1155241)

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Typos corrected Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 05:26:05 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by clearaspect on Sun May 6 16:43:08 2012.

The trees go just beyond the trees you see. The roots have also infested the ROW, and compromised it. You can't just cut them down, and they are gone. All the roots have to be dug out. If not, as the roots rot over a few years, they would create sinkholes in the rail line. Roots also compromise concrete structure that weren't designed to have trees on it. All the bridges are most likely compromised from 50+ years of trees growing on them, which weren't designed for tree roots.

(1155242)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 05:28:35 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by ClearAspect on Sun May 6 21:17:37 2012.

You obviously don't understand what tree roots do to concrete. The TREES win, not the concrete. The designers didn't design them for tree roots. Ever see what a tree does to concrete? It rips it apart like it's nothing. A small root grows quietly into a small pinhole of a crack, and completely expands it.

(1155243)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 05:29:21 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun May 6 21:22:42 2012.

Exactly. He doesn't understand what tree roots do to concrete. The tree ALWAYS wins.

(1155244)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 05:36:13 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by ClearAspect on Sun May 6 22:25:40 2012.

The high line didn't have nearly the amount of trees on it as what is happening on the Rockaway line and trestles. Furthermore, the Highline is safe for people walking on it, was it determined safe for the weight/use of trains every day?

(1155245)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 05:37:10 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Mon May 7 07:34:17 2012.

The new bridge over the Montauk Branch is the LEAST of the problems. How hard is that to do?

(1155246)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 05:40:40 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Edwards! on Mon May 7 20:35:37 2012.

Exactly. It's not a hindrance, but it IS something that will HAVE to be done. Clear Aspect is under the impression you just cut down the trees and lay the tracks and roll the trains.

(1155247)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue May 8 06:21:43 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Dyre Dan on Mon May 7 18:49:24 2012.

I would agree except for one problem:

I would think if Genting is paid for it, they would want a line that also serves lower Manhattan on the branch. Remember, Genting (the parent company of Resorts World, which runs the casino at Aqueduct) is based in Malaysia, and they may want a line like the (W) I proposed because lower Manhattan is still to many the financial district (even if it is a shell of what it once was in that regard). As the (M) no longer serves there, it may not be acceptable to Genting.

That was why I have the (W) from Whitehall Street-Rockaway Park as a 24/7 line and all of the other changes noted.

(1155248)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue May 8 06:24:49 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon May 7 20:34:39 2012.

I remember those racetrack specials to Roosevelt very well, actually going out early-mid afternoon and walking to Nathan's on Old Country Road where I got a lot of discounted food thanks to the coupons in the programs and playing video games before the cards there.

Aqueduct still has its place in the sport and I do think it would be cheaper to build the convention center on the opposite side of the tracks from Aqueduct. with bridges to the (A) train and the casino and racetrack.

(1155265)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue May 8 08:42:36 2012, in response to Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed May 2 15:00:34 2012.

I don't think this paper has been posted before. Really interesting and detailed analysis of six alternatives for reactivation/reuse of the line.

Get me to the Beach! Rockaway Beach Branch Reactivation Study, May 2010.

(1155267)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue May 8 08:45:52 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Mon May 7 07:38:45 2012.

No argument at all good buddy, a friendly but opinionated discussion!! :-)

But ClearAspect is responding with facts about bridge inspection, loading, and deterioration, not opinions.

(1155276)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Edwards! on Tue May 8 09:35:11 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 05:40:40 2012.

True..the line has sat for over fifty years without any kind of work done to it...it would be foolhardy to just remove the flora/fauna and lay tracks..

(1155288)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Dyre Dan on Tue May 8 10:31:35 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue May 8 06:21:43 2012.

I think the A, which will run through the new Fulton St. Transit Center, will be close enough to the Financial District to serve the purpose.

(1155302)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Tue May 8 11:33:07 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Fisk ave Jim on Mon May 7 18:08:16 2012.

You'll see trains running on MNRs Beacon line long before anything other than hikers go down the Rockaway line

You got that right!!!!

(1155321)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by TUNNELRAT on Tue May 8 13:53:50 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Mon May 7 19:49:56 2012.

YES IT IS & NO IT DOESN`T.

(1155322)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by randyo on Tue May 8 13:56:02 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Dyre Dan on Tue May 8 10:31:35 2012.

IAWTP!

(1155325)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by TUNNELRAT on Tue May 8 14:02:10 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 05:37:10 2012.

ITS ONLY A 30/40 FOOT SPAN,A PIECE OF CAKE.

(1155331)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue May 8 14:49:43 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by MainR3664 on Fri May 4 13:58:24 2012.

Well, it all depends on why one went to Lowe's or Home Depot (I prefer the latter). For heavy and/or large and/or clumsy stuff, you need a rubber-tired vehicle- either your own car or the truck they rent by the hour. For a small power tool, such as a drill or cordless screwdriver, or perhaps a lightbulb you can't buy in the drugstore,you have more options for travel.

Most things i buy at Home Depot are small and can be carried on public transportation. I used to take the bus to Home Depot in Flushing all the time. Once in Chicago, I took a 4x8 sheet of plywood, cut in half, home on the bus from Lowe's.

(1155333)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue May 8 14:55:48 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 05:29:21 2012.

Exactly. He doesn't understand what tree roots do to concrete. The tree ALWAYS wins.

Which still doesn't mean the entire structure has to be replaced.

(1155336)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by randyo on Tue May 8 15:13:35 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue May 8 08:42:36 2012.

I noticed a few errors in the reactivation study. First, it seems that whoever prepared the report was unaware of the partially completed tunnel sections already in place N/O 63 Dr on the IND subway since he/she refers to new construction from Woodhaven Blvd station. The report also states that the NYCTA purchased the property from the LIRR when in fact at the time, all subway purchases were done by the city of NY with the NYCTA merely being the operator but not the owner. Another error is the timeline between the LIRR abandonment of the branch and the city takeover. At the moment, I'm not sure of the exact year but I believe it was around 1952 which, by the way was before the creation of the NYCTA.If the takeover was in 1955 as the report indicated, there would not have been sufficient time for the city to remove the remains of the burned out LIRR trestle, create the landfill and build the completely new bridges in time for the IND opening of the Rockaway Line in the summer of 1956. Also, the photo of the A train crossing over the LIRR which supposedly dates from 1948 is definitely misdated since the A train did not start operating to Lefferts until 1956 and even if one could infer that the R-10 train in the photo was one of the ones assigned to the BMT (which didn't happen until the early 1950s), that would be highly unlikely since in 1948 when the R-10s were brand new they would have still shown the 2 tone grey paint scheme which would still be visible in a B/W photo and not the dark grey steel dust color evident in the photo. Additionally, before the IND connection was built, the only access to the Liberty Av portion of the Fulton el would nave been over the unrebuilt section of the el between Penna Av and Crescent St which would not have been able to sustain the weight of R-10s anyhow. I also think that although the "1948" photo is supposed to be looking south, It is more likely looking north since there wouldn't have been sufficient room between Liberty Av and the point where the IND tracks join the ROW for the number of LIRR cars that are in the photo. Also in several places in the report, mention is made of differences between LIRR specs and MTA specs apparently ignoring the fact that the LIRR is a constituent agency of the MTA. While I appreciate the efforts of individuals who wish to advocate what is or could be in the public interest, I should think that they would do their research more thoroughly so that their credibility would be so impeccable as to be difficult if not impossible to compromise.

(1155338)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Tue May 8 15:16:23 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun May 6 22:08:28 2012.

That does not mean anything!! All ti takes is for the right force and right conditions to cause a collapse. Many buildings which have crumbled I bet someone at some point looked at it and thought it was safe until the building just collapsed!! Looks can indeed be deceiving, as the outside does not always show what's going on on the inside!! Very inconclusive to anything in regard to the structures' condition.

Which is why there are still routine inspections on the bridges so they don't fall onto the roadway below.

(1155345)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by ClearAspect on Tue May 8 16:24:17 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 05:29:21 2012.

I understand very well what tree roots does to concrete but you neglect to remember 2 things

1. NYC still does inspections on those structures and...
2. The bridges are concrete with the steel providing the main support. So the tree roots may get into the cracks in the concrete but it doesn't mean the tree has compromised the STEEL thats really holding the bridge.

(1155347)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by ClearAspect on Tue May 8 16:47:22 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 05:40:40 2012.

Wrong again Chris... thats twice. I know what work has to be involved and in redoing the trackbed for the railroad they have to get down to the subsoil remove the trees and whatever roots are there, then put the subgrade, the blanket, cess, ballast and sub-ballast and then lay down the tracks. However lets look at the Lakawana Cutoff and the Andover to Port Morris which has estimated costs which is roughly $36 million for 7 miles to prepare it for rail service.... So if we use that as a measuring stick from White Pot Junction to Liberty Junction is about 7 miles as well give or take a mile and its double tracked you can assume it will cost probably between 50-100 million to prepare and lay down the track for service. Also the entire cost of the Lakawana Project is around 600 million. So if Jersey Can do that for under a billion whats stopping NYC from rebuilding this line for under 1 billion?

(1155351)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Joe V on Tue May 8 17:20:28 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by ClearAspect on Tue May 8 16:47:22 2012.

Plus that viaduct over I-80 is in bad shape, and needs a major rehab.

None of us really know the condition about those steel spans over Jamaica Av and the like until we scrape down to the steel deck and see what's there (or not). But some of the CTA Evanston Branch spans look far worse than anything we have in use.

(1155354)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by 3-9 on Tue May 8 17:35:43 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 05:29:21 2012.

How often has the ROW been cleared? I seem to remember that every so often the trees and brush get cut down. That would certainly hinder really big trees (with corresponding root systems) from taking over.

(1155360)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Fisk ave Jim on Tue May 8 18:35:15 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by 3-9 on Tue May 8 17:35:43 2012.

In the early 80's, I lived at 98th St off Atlantic Ave for four years with the north end of the Woodhaven sta. outside my bedroom window & never seen anyone anywhere near at any time do any form of tree removal or weed control maintenance.

I remember walking up onto the Woodhaven platform & aside from all the garbage, abandoned refrigerator crates that passed for homeless housing & much broken glass I'd have to skip around, trees were growing up between the ties & weeds surrounded the still covered 3d rail & chocolate brown running rail. Quite an eerie & surreal sight.

Other than the homeless & occasional tresspasser like myself, nobody has been there.

(1155369)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 18:46:34 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by 3-9 on Tue May 8 17:35:43 2012.

Cut down? It's NEVER had the brush cut down. The trees are thick, 30-40 year old thick trees.

(1155370)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue May 8 18:48:53 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by ClearAspect on Tue May 8 16:24:17 2012.

That's all well and good, but they are inspected for integrity from being a danger, not for if they are capable of handling heavy trains every 10 minutes. And if the concrete is compromised, the bridge has to be dismantled and rebuilt. Furthermore, the roots have to be removed from the entire ROW. They can't just cut them down. All the wood UNDER ground has to be removed, as if they don't, it will create sinkholes as the roots eventually rot.

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