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(1154948)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by randyo on Sun May 6 16:28:59 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by tunnelrat on Sat May 5 22:37:53 2012.

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That's correct, you are my source for that info.

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(1154949)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Joe V on Sun May 6 16:32:06 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun May 6 13:35:50 2012.

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It should be a rapid transit service with R160's. It need not be 286,000 lbs compliant.

Hopefully, the Super Steels will be off to Naparona before the decade is out, though not hopeful that lighter weight locos can be built.

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(1154950)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by randyo on Sun May 6 16:32:07 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun May 6 10:25:24 2012.

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If the governor and certain private interests want it and are willing to get it funded, it will happen. Remember money talks and it always tells the truth!

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(1154951)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by clearaspect on Sun May 6 16:43:08 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun May 6 10:18:07 2012.

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You're incorrect Paul because its in the city there wont be any parking facilities. So take the cost out the list, removing trees isnt expensive, and not all bridges have to be replaced. Alot were overbuilt, they might get replaced but most need some patchwork and fresh paint. Signals and track installation will be the most expensive. The city owns the ROW so property acquisition will be easy and any power or substations can be built above the ROW. Also most stations can be built as single island stations with simple designs to keep cost low and land acquiring to a minimum.

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(1154954)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by clearaspect on Sun May 6 17:07:31 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Edwards! on Wed May 2 22:25:08 2012.

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You dont build lines for building lines sake, drawing lines doesnt work in the real world. As I learned that when I went through tremendous amounts of Revisions of my own second avenue subway line. Matching demographic data, back in the early days lines could go "nowhere" because the areas were ripe for development. Now though with the city mostly developed new lines must go where it will benefit the most people and offer the most convinence over other forms of transportation and spur land value increases. The biggest weakness of the Rockaway line is its distance from Woodhaven Blvd meaning people would still need to take a bus to the train in certain cases so it might not take significant amount of people off the buses. Also its easy to extend the M line but why? Is there enough of a demand in that corridor for manhattan service or subway service? Its easy to say yes, but if 2u full length trains can handle the rush hour capacity of hourly bus service... thats not a lot of people to justify up to 2 billion in building.

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(1154959)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun May 6 19:00:15 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Michael549 on Sun May 6 10:40:37 2012.

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"I still don't understand this push for bigger and bigger convention centers when we can't even fill the ones that we have."

Exactly. Internet has killed off conventions. COMDEX, for example, was a huge event for many years but eventually died and was revived some years later as a virtual COMDEX. But politicians don't get votes and look as though they are creating jobs by pushing for Internet events, so if Cuomo and his business pals want a new convention center and a rebuilt Rockaway line be it LIRR or subway to service it, it will happen, regardless of the NIMBY opposition. Then we will have another, new white elephant to replace the existing white elephant we know as Aqueduct Race Course.

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(1154960)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun May 6 19:06:14 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Joe V on Sun May 6 13:14:02 2012.

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Replacing the bridges before putting them back into service would make far more sense than taking a chance that it would need to be done after service is restored and passenger service would be disrupted. Many bridges newer than those on the Rockaway branch have been replaced, so quite possibly some would be due for replacement anyway, especially considering that almost no maintenance has been performed on those bridges apart from whatever may have been necessary to keep them from collapsing. And as others have mentioned, some of those bridges actually have trees growing in them, which can't be good for them.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by BrooklynBus on Sun May 6 19:06:59 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun May 6 19:00:15 2012.

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At least a rebuilt Rockaway Line has many other benefits even if the Convention Center fails.

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(1154965)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by clearaspect on Sun May 6 19:52:53 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun May 6 19:06:14 2012.

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Alot of bridges during those times were overbuilt and are quite strong. However if they need replacement since there is no active service you can prebuild bridges and simply install them and if they're built that way it can be actually cheaper too. Of course that'll be determined by the engineering study. But to show the strength if you visit the Sea Beach line alot of the bridges over the line are nearly 100 years old.

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(1154966)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Rockparkman on Sun May 6 20:04:36 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by clearaspect on Sun May 6 19:52:53 2012.

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Plate Girder spans are moved and reused all the time on FRA railroads and if you're reusing a bridge originally intended for FRA type service on a subway line, the Cooper's Loading* is much less so there should be no problem.

*Cooper's Loading; a system for determining the load capacity of railroad bridges.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Cooper

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun May 6 21:07:33 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by clearaspect on Sun May 6 16:43:08 2012.

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in the city there wont be any parking facilities

Don't be so sure about that. Just because it is in the city, does not mean parking facilities will be ruled out. Not all the stations will be fully transit accessible.

removing trees isnt expensive

A tree trimming/removal company can charge thousands of dollars just to trim back a set of trees along a right of way. Now figure the cost of completely uprooting (not only cutting down and removing the tree but digging out the root system so it does not grow back) a tree, cutting it up, removing it, and times that by probably a few thousand considering much of the right of way between Whitepot Junction and 103rd Avenue in Ozone Park is heavily overgrown with very sizable trees and growth. And not forget about vegetation spraying to prevent regrowth.

and not all bridges have to be replaced

Are you kidding me??? Most of the viaduct along 99th Street will have to come down, as many sections of it are showing signs of decay and have already been falling apart, as has been reported numerous times in the last few years in the newspapers, especially the local area papers. And did you forget a whole new bridge will need to be constructed over the LIRR Montauk Branch, including abutments. And the plate girder span over Jamaica Avenue (seen easily from any J train passing over) is in terrible shape. The only structure that looks sturdy (remember there is more than meets the eye, especially when it comes to metalurgy, just because it looks sturdy, does not mean that it is!!!) is the one over Yellowstone Blvd, and remember these structures have not seen regular use in almost 70 years, not to mention the weather and corrosion that is overtaking the structures, and no you cannot always recoat with paint. Look at the condition of a lot of El structures, no matter how much they are painted, corrosion still works thru. The El for the #6 in the Bronx hardly looks like it was completely scraped, sanded, primed and painted about 2 years ago. Corrosion is already starting to return. Remember good buddy, again it may look strudy, does not mean that it is!!!

Also most stations can be built as single island stations with simple designs to keep cost low and land acquiring to a minimum

Low cost does not equal good, lasting quality. Look at how Parsons-Archer is already having structural issues!! And the longer the station length, the more the cost, plus building accessways to reach each station, lighting, and such.

Also with all of this, there is also the cost of fencing off the right of way. Nowadays, you know as well as I do, especially with MTA-hired contractors, nothing will come for cheap, and even our estimates here of the costs of an undertaking to reopen this line might be well under-guess-timated!!!

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by ClearAspect on Sun May 6 21:17:37 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun May 6 21:07:33 2012.

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Structurally PA is fine, its the function thats horrid! PA was form before function and thats its downfall. Most of the Viaduct along 99th Street WONT need to be replaced, perhaps on the outside of the Viaducts where concrete has cracked exposing the steel rods will need replacement. As for the bridges, alot of is CONCRETE with steel whole spans need not replacement, but certain sections can be fixed. I've studied bridges and bridge design and the beauty of elevated structures and bridges of that era is that you can replace defective sections of the bridge rather than replace the entire span. They're very friendly! The engineers of past times understood the enormous costs of replacing entire structures and that it would be a horrible impact on services, so they built them extremely well and in a way that you can do replacements on defective areas as they are needed.

Metro North showed you can build simple stations that are well built! Stations like Wakefield. simple station designs that are well prebuilt structures that are sound! As for trees, it'll cost millions of dollars, but its not something that would make or break whether a line gets built.

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(1154991)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun May 6 21:22:42 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by ClearAspect on Sun May 6 21:17:37 2012.

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"The engineers of past times understood the enormous costs of replacing entire structures and that it would be a horrible impact on services, so they built them extremely well and in a way that you can do replacements on defective areas as they are needed."

I am sure that those engineers also assumed that the structures would be regularly maintained and not abandoned to the elements.



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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun May 6 21:25:52 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by clearaspect on Sun May 6 19:52:53 2012.

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Alot of bridges during those times were overbuilt and are quite strong

Speculation at best about strength. Remember they have sat moribund, in about 70 years of snowstorms, rainstorms, heat expansion from heat waves, extreme cold, humidity, corrosion from water and other chemicals in the water, stuff that might have been dumped on the right of way, etc. etc. Would you really take a chance running full time service over old structures which been thru those conditions without regular inspections much as you would have if they were open for rail service, and inspected on a more regular schedule and routine maintenance schedules? They may look broad and "overbuilt", does not mean they are in the condition to support heavy cars at regular frequent intervals on a 24/7/365 basis?

These structures will indeed more than likely need to be completely rehabbed, if not completely replaced with newer structures.

But to show the strength if you visit the Sea Beach line alot of the bridges over the line are nearly 100 years old.

You cannot possibly compare roadway bridges to structures designed to withstand heavy trains at frequent intervals. How many cars passing over a roadway overpass would it take to stress that structure in terms of weight on structure to measure up to and equal the weight of either 8 or 10 empty passenger railcars, much less ones with load, at a similar frequency, and the stress that causes to a structure?? Do any of those roads see heavy vehicles such as frequent heavy or wide load vehicles other than occasional trucks and city buses?? And do any of those vehicles in any number add up to the weight of 8 to 10 passenger railcars (again not gonna even factor in loaded cars), and how many would it take to equal the weight of 8 to 10 passenger railcars??

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun May 6 21:32:21 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by ClearAspect on Sun May 6 21:17:37 2012.

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The viaduct on 99th Street is in very poor shape, local residents have made numerous reports of pieces falling off the structure, the overpasses have shown considerable decay and cracking and more than just exposure of steel rods. Again, all of this has been reported multiple times in local papers in thaty part of Queens. And a few times the overpasses have been tarped because of all the debris crumbling right off the structure. Does not take a scientist to see that structure is clearly not in any shape to accomodate ANY train traffic safely, and will indeed need to be completely replaced. Maybe the locations between the actual street overpasses might fair better condition-wise (i.e. north or southbound between 101st Avenue and 103rd Avenue), but considering the condition of the overpasses, the whole structure will need a complete inspection, and I can guarantee you, any inspector will say the same thing I am, that this structure is not safe for trains and will need to be replaced.

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(1154994)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun May 6 21:32:44 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun May 6 21:22:42 2012.

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Precisely!!!

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by ClearAspect on Sun May 6 21:54:21 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun May 6 21:32:21 2012.

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Pieces also fell off the West End Line and it still holding up. Crumbling concrete doesn't mean the steel underneath is compromised. Doesn't mean the ENTIRE structure needs replacement. Looks can be deceiving, you can take apart the concrete and replace the rusted rebar and put up new concrete and everything is fine. Concrete can be replaced and steel can be too. Repairing it is far cheaper and far more realistic than replacing the entire structure. I guarantee you the engineer will say "its not safe for trains at this time, when we replace defective sections it will be ready"

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by ClearAspect on Sun May 6 21:55:32 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun May 6 21:22:42 2012.

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It's a testament that despite its been held to the elements for over 50 years that they're still standing. Also the high line says you're wrong...

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(1155001)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun May 6 22:04:33 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by ClearAspect on Sun May 6 21:54:21 2012.

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I presume you are referring to the High Line, and as of right now, there are not necessarily trains running over the High Line now, is there? And since it has not been inspected as it would if trains were planned to run over it again, who knows what shape the steel is in???

when we replace defective sections it will be ready

How many defective sections, if looking at the viaduct today, would an inspector find (or need to find) before saying "complete new structure necessary"?? I bet it would need to be renewed.

Let's make a long story short, the line IS NOT being reopened in any of our lifetimes, and any hope for such is nothing more than a railfan dream. It's not gonna happen in our lifetime!! We can discuss why it should/shouldn't until we are ready to pass out, why it is needed/not needed until we pass out, and how much it will/won't cost until we pass out, and it still will not be reopened to rail traffic in our lifetimes. We really should give this topic a rest.

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(1155002)

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun May 6 22:08:28 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by ClearAspect on Sun May 6 21:55:32 2012.

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Also the high line says you're wrong...

Was the High Line given a structural inspection much as it would if trains were going to be run over it?? Who is to say how it would have held up to constant use by any type of railcar(s), be it light rail, subway, or even reuse as a railroad line?? Big difference in the weight of pedestrians and stress on the structure caused by pedestrians as opposed to weight and stress causes by trains!!

It's a testament that despite its been held to the elements for over 50 years that they're still standing

That does not mean anything!! All ti takes is for the right force and right conditions to cause a collapse. Many buildings which have crumbled I bet someone at some point looked at it and thought it was safe until the building just collapsed!! Looks can indeed be deceiving, as the outside does not always show what's going on on the inside!! Very inconclusive to anything in regard to the structures' condition.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by ClearAspect on Sun May 6 22:20:11 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun May 6 22:04:33 2012.

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No it shouldn't be given a rest because theres a realistic chance that something will happen with that line within our lifetimes whether its a park, light rail, airtrain, heavy rail, who knows, something will happen with the property on that ROW that can be. It's great to see people honestly debating and giving ideas on what is possible with that ROW, this is what subchat is about honestly and a healthy debate about what is the best way to go about it is what is best about this forum.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by ClearAspect on Sun May 6 22:25:40 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun May 6 22:08:28 2012.

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The structure had to be sufficiently strong to not only handle crowds but exhibitions, and steel structures on top of it, which do have a weight to it. It also had to be inspected, repaired, trees removed, everything you say has to be done on the ROW in Queens. Safety is Safety whether its a train running or thousands of people. All thats important is a through inspection and determine what needs to be done.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Wallyhorse on Sun May 6 22:51:55 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by randyo on Sun May 6 16:27:56 2012.

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Maybe, but as we all know the T is slated to be the 2nd Avenue line if that is ever built to at least Houston.

In the old days, that might have been true, but the (R) would still be the main Broadway local while the (N) would go back to being a Broadway Express. The Manhattan trunk line would decide it in this case. The only reason I have the (R) swap Brooklyn terminals with the (D) in this case has everything to do with the yard issues that were why the (R) was changed from Astoria in the first place since in this scenario, the (R) would go back to being the primary Astoria line while the (N) would be secondary to Astoria and would supplement the (Q) on the SAS when not going to Astoria. I don't think outside of those of us old enough to remember people ever knowing there used to be a (T) on the Broadway line.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Wallyhorse on Sun May 6 23:31:25 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by randyo on Sun May 6 16:32:07 2012.

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Exactly, and that may very well be what happens here.

I also think what will happen is the convention center will get built, however, it will be mostly on the opposite side of the (A) tracks at North Conduit and SOME of the existing parking lot at Aqueduct (with all such connected to the racetrack/casino) as that to me would be considerably cheaper than to build it where the track is and also having to either winterize Belmont Park's massive grandstand, build a new grandstand where the training track is at Belmont so that can be used for winter racing OR build an entirely new racetrack to replace Aqueduct.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by R 36 ML 9542 on Mon May 7 01:42:25 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Wallyhorse on Sun May 6 22:51:55 2012.

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I actually like that option making the R 24/7.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by R 36 ML 9542 on Mon May 7 01:51:29 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by ClearAspect on Sun May 6 22:25:40 2012.

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The Rockaway beach branch hasn't seen a train in 50 years!!! It probably needs a ton a maint.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by randyo on Mon May 7 03:35:02 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Wallyhorse on Sun May 6 22:51:55 2012.

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Another letter can always be assigned to the SAS like a U or a Y . Also K and V which don't have the branch to trunk tradition of the other letters can also be assigned there.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by ClearAspect on Mon May 7 05:01:23 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun May 6 21:25:52 2012.

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Speculation? How? They're built like every other LIRR bridge at the time and they're still standing! The bridges are still standing even though they've been left to the elements! Also those bridges do get inspected, because the city will be held liable for any collapse of the bridge. They might not be able to handle railcars at the moment, but with sufficient repairs they can.

Roadways handle the same stresses as railway bridges, constant stresses from above, same elements, weight, frequency is more. While they might not weigh as much as a car, the roadway bridge handles a lot more traffic over its lifespan than the railway bridge.That is a fact you cannot dispute.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Wallyhorse on Mon May 7 06:05:06 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun May 6 19:00:15 2012.

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As said in my other post, I don't see Aqueduct actually being replaced.

It may prove to be much cheaper if they do build a larger convention center on (mostly) the opposite side of the (A) tracks (with some of it built between the end of the clubhouse and mile chute at Aqueduct, using the existing parking lot there) since building it over Aqueduct means they also would have to do one of three things:

1. Winterize the massive grandstand of Belmont Park.
2. Build a new grandstand where the training track at Belmont is and set it up for winter racing.
3. Build an entirely new racetrack to replace Aqueduct.

That's why I like option 4, and that is build the convention center, but mostly use land on the other side of the tracks that is for the most part deserted and/or has a very limited number of the homes and connect it to both the subway stations and racetrack/casino. Even with having to relocate some people, it would not be too many and I suspect that would prove to be the least expensive option.

That also, BTW makes the 7 extension even more important because you likely would then see high rises built to replace the existing Javits Center.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by MainR3664 on Mon May 7 07:00:05 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by ClearAspect on Mon May 7 05:01:23 2012.

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Without getting in the middle of an argument, perhaps TMP is referring to the lack of maitainence on the LIRR bridges. While it's true the bridges were well built (they have lasted as long as they have), they have not had the same maintainence that in-service bridges get. While it's also true they haven't had the stresses of use, I'd think that such things as jammed up trains, tree roots growing through the structures, and lack of attention outweigh the lack of use.

No doubt BYC maintains the structures sufficiently to keep them from falling down, that doesn't mean they're in condition for use. I'm sure the LI Motor Parkway structures in Queens couldn't be safely used for their original pupose either, anymore.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by MainR3664 on Mon May 7 07:07:59 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Bounad Hanhic on Sun May 6 14:03:26 2012.

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Well, since 99.9% (at least) of Manhattanites live in apartments, there's little demand for the really big stuff. In fact, I've been to the HD @ 3Ave/E59th, and I didn't even see a lumber section. If they DO need a sink, toilet, vanity or other large item, they probably get it delivered. I try to avoid drving my car in Manahttan, and if I lived there, what a pain it would be to load a vehicle at curbside, where would I park it to unload it- 3 blocks from my home- that'd defeat the purpose of driving...

And I'd have no yard or sidewalk to personally worry about, so I'd have no need to transport bags of topsoil, ice melter, etc...

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by MainR3664 on Mon May 7 07:09:47 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat May 5 17:09:29 2012.

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I believe that plan eactly was considered in 1958 or so...which is interesting, as it was open season on els back then...yet the TA wanted to expand one.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Mon May 7 07:21:57 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by ClearAspect on Mon May 7 05:01:23 2012.

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Also those bridges do get inspected, because the city will be held liable for any collapse of the bridge

Well, someone has been asleep at the wheel, because those bridges already have crumbled, and enough to where they had to (since I have not been to the area in some time, I do not know if the tarps are still there) place tarps under and around the structure. So someone has been missing the beat! And in this day and age of corner-cutting to save bucks, I would not feel at all confident in the quality of inspection techniques.

They might not be able to handle railcars at the moment, but with sufficient repairs they can.

A bridge and right of way which has not hosted rail traffic since the late 50s will need a whole lot more than "sufficient repairs". Again, would you feel safe with new, heavy trains running on such a dilapidated right of way??

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Mon May 7 07:24:30 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by ClearAspect on Sun May 6 22:20:11 2012.

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I have no problem at all with open debates, so do not get my comments twisted in any way. But yes, this discussion has been beaten well into the ground, and again the opening of this line is nothing more than just a railfan dream.

Seeing this right of way used for a greenway or venue similar to the High Line I can see happening there long before if ever sees another train. Stop me if I am wrong, but haven't the MTA and even city officials stated before there are no plans anytime soon to open this line to rail service?

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Mon May 7 07:34:17 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by ClearAspect on Sun May 6 22:25:40 2012.

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This line also seen it last trains a lot more recently than the Rockaway Line has (1980 for the High Line as opposed to the late 50s for the Rockaway Line), has not been overgrown even half as much as the Rockaway Line has. And again, the structures are not just the only things that need to be addressed, there is also the numerous eroded, washed out spots long the line where roadbed has been lost, the roots of the very large trees on the line also help to undermine the roadbed, plus the whole new bridge with abutments needed to cross over the LIRR Montauk Branch, much needs to be addressed.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Mon May 7 07:38:45 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by MainR3664 on Mon May 7 07:00:05 2012.

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No argument at all good buddy, a friendly but opinionated discussion!! :-)

But yes, they have been able to last, but you hit the nail on the head when you said "they have not had the same maintainence that in-service bridges get. While it's also true they haven't had the stresses of use, I'd think that such things as jammed up trains, tree roots growing through the structures, and lack of attention outweigh the lack of use"

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by MainR3664 on Mon May 7 08:06:41 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Mon May 7 07:38:45 2012.

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I actually had a typo in there, I said "jammed up trains". I meant, as I think you know, "jammed up drains". No trains have been jammed up on that ROW in 50 years...

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon May 7 11:38:35 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri May 4 02:25:55 2012.

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I suppose it's much easier to carry on the train.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon May 7 11:44:38 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by AMoreira81 on Fri May 4 20:12:15 2012.

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The eastern end, however could be extended to Aqueduct and JFK above Linden Blvd as an el since it is virtually entirely industrial. You might not even need any intermediate stations. Also you could extend the New Lots Line and have a transfer there.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon May 7 12:04:16 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by WillD on Fri May 4 04:10:47 2012.

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In his younger days before 1947, the goal of parks was to provide recreation facilities of which there were none before his reign, only Central and Prospect Parks. In one year he built 300 parks alone. Coud you imagine such an undertaking today.

You can say all the bad things you want about the man, because certainly there is much that can be said, but you can't deny all the good he did. Where would we be today without him. We got very few of his highways in Brooklyn. So it takes me 45 minutes to get from Sheepshead Bay to Park Slope. In that same amount of time because of Moses, with his highways, I can get to Nassau County, Westchester, and New Jersey in the same amount of time. I regularly travel to Astoria. That trip would take over 2 hours if I had to do it on local streets.

And please don't give me the argument that if he didn't build his highways we would have had mass transit lines all over he city and I coud have made my trip that way because that cannot be proven. Everyone would have been fighting for that money, not only mass transit advocates. The truth is we just can't build everything today.

And please explain what were the massive flaws in his Midtown Expressway proposal?

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon May 7 12:15:31 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon May 7 12:04:16 2012.

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Excellent post.
The money he brought to NY area was Federal highway funds which he was able to bring to NEW YORK. It's not like that money would have instead went to transit projects here instead. The money would have instead went to some OTHER city for THEIR road/bridge project.


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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by ClearAspect on Mon May 7 13:09:28 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Mon May 7 07:21:57 2012.

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Concrete crumbling =/= Steel Compromised.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by ClearAspect on Mon May 7 13:11:37 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Mon May 7 07:24:30 2012.

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Thats for now, but the PANYNJ might have an interest in connecting LGA and JFK via and Airtrain line that can go via that route.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Mon May 7 13:35:55 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Mon May 7 07:34:17 2012.

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But it would still be less expensive than having to build a new rail line under, over or near Woodhaven Blvd entirely from scratch. At least there's already something there, something to work with, decrepit as it may be. There's no way a subway under Woodhaven (or even a concrete el over it) would cost less than rebuilding the Rockaway Line.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Mon May 7 14:17:18 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun May 6 21:32:21 2012.

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If the viaduct and the overpasses need to be replaced, then that's what they should be. And they should be replaced with structures that are capable of handling frequent-running train service. Don't just tear them down and leave nothing there.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Mon May 7 14:32:25 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by randyo on Thu May 3 15:44:57 2012.

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Randyo, I think IND 6th Ave construction had already started and there was underpinning of the 6th Ave El as construction was under way. The other examples were cases of construction not already started.

--Mark

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by ClearAspect on Mon May 7 14:54:35 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon May 7 12:04:16 2012.

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I share some of your agreements with him, but overall his desire to build build build, led to poor planning and lack of future growth. For instance the Crown Jewel his CBX was at capacity the day it opened! The BQE doesn't even meet Interstate Highway Standards, and also thanks to him we have many Laws that hinder the progress of building things like Highways, Railroads etc. He may have been great with the parks, but he dissected and cut up the city in ways that hurt more than help these days. We've learned a lot from the Man, both good and bad, and if you were to judge him you go "He did a lot for this city, but at what cost?"

As for the massive flaws? Like everything else he built, it was not designed for future use... it would've been outdated the day it opened as it only called for 3 lanes in each direction. It was also supposed to be built at the height of TEN stories above street level. It would've required the building of a third tube for the QMT. This would be an engineering nightmare, maintaining it would be very difficult, upgrading would be impossible. It was a lovely idea in theory, a futuristic highway in the sky. But the reality wasn't so beautiful, by that time, he had lost a lot of love in NYC.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Mon May 7 14:56:14 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by ClearAspect on Mon May 7 13:09:28 2012.

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Well, when conrete crumbles = good chance of steel compromise, especially by corrosion as steel is exposed, plus one does not know what caused the crumbling of the concrete!! What caused the deterioration of the concrete could play a catalyst in steel compromise.

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Mon May 7 14:58:21 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Mon May 7 13:35:55 2012.

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Well, true there is something to build on, but wouldn't you want to be sure what is there to build on is good and SAFE to build on??? Wouldn't one rather have new construction than construction on something whose integrity might be compromised??

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Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line

Posted by randyo on Mon May 7 15:07:32 2012, in response to Re: Best Article I've Read on Reasons to Reactivate the Rockaway Beach Line, posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Mon May 7 07:24:30 2012.

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While we may classify it as a "railfans' dream," the fact is that the convention center was brought up by the governor himself who is probably not a railfan, not to mention some local politicians in the area who are probably not railfans per se either. Also, does anyone know the last time the city and MTA publicly stated that there are no plans to resurrect the line? If the governor's plans and those recently publicized by the local politicians were made known after the last negative city and MTA statement, both the city and MTA may have no choice but get with the program and give the rebuilding of the line for rapid transit service a realistic evaluation.

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