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| Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? (336120) | |
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| (336881) | |
Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jul 18 07:53:44 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by Fred G on Fri Jul 18 05:42:11 2008. It's entirely possible and plausible, given the time period we're talking about.I never said it wasn't plausable. But it's still a conspiracy theory. |
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| (336886) | |
Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jul 18 07:55:30 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jul 18 01:37:16 2008. And the Jackie Robinson/Interboro is a Robert Moses Parkway - buses (at least school buses) can run the length. |
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| (336887) | |
Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jul 18 07:56:10 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by The Port of Authority on Fri Jul 18 01:28:48 2008. He built/designed it then? It "looks" like all the others. |
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| (336888) | |
Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by Fred G on Fri Jul 18 07:57:09 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jul 18 07:53:44 2008. It's an educated guess based on evidence from a source close to him. It's not the be-all and end-all, but it's not a "conspiracy theory" in the sense that it implies a crackpot idea. It's a theory, yes, and we'd probably have to hold a seance to know for sure.your pal, Fred |
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| (336895) | |
Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jul 18 08:08:33 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jul 18 07:56:10 2008. I meant, "who", not "he", jeez that's two typos in two posts.... I didn't have my morning coffee yet.... |
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Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri Jul 18 10:04:23 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by Jeff Rosen on Fri Jul 18 05:30:28 2008. Why is it so hard to believe that there is a possibility that Robert Moses could have been prejudiced?The question isn't whether or not he was prejudiced, but whether or not the bridges were designed to exclude blacks by making them too short for buses. The assumptions that blacks only ride buses and buses carry only blacks are ludicrous. |
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| (336914) | |
Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 18 10:37:25 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 17 21:20:37 2008. Again, they can traverse it now, but could they before the reconstruction? I know a foot bridge was removed but am unaware of any other bridge reconstruction on the JR.As for the legality, I believe it is on a case by case basis. Just like NYCT, they would have to get a permit from NYCDOT prior to using it. I'm not aware what their policy is toward school buses, whom they give permits to and whom they don't. But my guess would be like everything else in the City, it would depend on if you give the right political contributions and to whom that decides if you get the permit or not. |
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| (336916) | |
Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jul 18 11:19:44 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri Jul 18 10:04:23 2008. Thank you, at least some people here are rational. |
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| (336917) | |
Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jul 18 11:22:18 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 18 10:37:25 2008. I don't think they rebuilt any of the bridges, but about 4 or 5 years ago, they took out the two Cypress Hills Cemetery bridges (because they were in complete disrepair), but other than that, I think most, if not all the bridges are pretty close to their as built dimentions. |
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| (336918) | |
Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jul 18 11:22:56 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 18 10:37:25 2008. sorry, "dimensions". |
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| (336922) | |
Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Jul 18 12:14:19 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri Jul 18 10:04:23 2008. The assumptions that blacks only ride buses and buses carry only blacks are ludicrous.I have no opinion on the conspiracy theory. But in the 1940s the assumption that the vast majority of blacks could only get to the beach via public transportation (thus bus where there was no railroad) was not in the least ludicrous. |
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| (336924) | |
Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Fri Jul 18 12:28:15 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jul 18 07:56:10 2008. Robert Moses didn't build anything in NJ. |
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| (336925) | |
Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Fri Jul 18 12:29:44 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jul 18 08:08:33 2008. Gilmore David Clarke, a colleague of Moses, designed the Garden State Parkway. |
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| (336967) | |
Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jul 18 15:39:54 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by AlM on Fri Jul 18 12:14:19 2008. Jones beach and Ocean Parkway both had plenty of bus access. Buses always could run there. |
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| (336976) | |
Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by WillD on Fri Jul 18 15:59:30 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri Jul 18 10:04:23 2008. The question isn't whether or not he was prejudiced, but whether or not the bridges were designed to exclude blacks by making them too short for buses. The assumptions that blacks only ride buses and buses carry only blacks are ludicrous.I never said the segregation was neccesarily race based. It's much more clearly a class based segregation based on whether a family owned an automobile or not. At the time this would have effected a greater percentage of black families than white families, but that is a problem generated by the demographics of that period. |
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| (336994) | |
Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jul 18 17:19:01 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by WillD on Fri Jul 18 15:59:30 2008. Ocean Parkway always had access to buses, as did Jones Beach. Yes, the parkways were designed for leisure automobile vehicles only. That was the design, no commercial vehicles.But buses were not denied access to Jones Beach, nor Ocean Parkway. |
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| (336999) | |
Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by WillD on Fri Jul 18 18:05:00 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jul 18 17:19:01 2008. So the poor people aren't denied access to the beaches, they just have to drive through miles and miles of side streets to reach the short parkways that lead to those beaches. And if the parkways were designed for leisure automobile traffic only then it would follow that if buses carrying poor people were prohibited from them then the poor people were not deserving of such leisure.Incidentally, he did take measures to specifically segregate the beaches on the basis of race. These are recounted on page 318 and 319, toward the end of the 17th chapter. Based on interviews with Sid Shapiro, Paul Kerns (LaGuardia's law secretary), and Paul Windels (LaGuardia Corporation Council) Caro recounts a process by which buses entering Jones Beach and other parks had to recieve a permit. Buses chartered by African American groups often found it difficult to recieve a permit in the first place, and when they did it was rarely to Jones Beach, but rather to one of the more distant, unimproved beaches where they'd be parked on the edge of the parking lot. Caro's assertion that Moses considered African Americans "Dirty" comes directly from an interview with Sid Shapiro. Of course his actions on Long Island taken with the fact that he built nearly no parks in black neighborhoods in New York despite the lower land cost pretty well put this revisionist history to rest. |
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| (337000) | |
Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 18 18:28:26 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri Jul 18 10:04:23 2008. True. But when you go to Rockaway, and take a long walk, you'll see mostly white people in the beaches higher than 116, and mostly minorities at 116 to the 90's or 80's. It's no coincidence as the last stop on the train is beach 116. |
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| (337003) | |
Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 18 18:35:01 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by WillD on Fri Jul 18 18:05:00 2008. People have ruined the beaches of New York. Everyone knows that.Did you know that you can't go swimming at New York City beaches after 6pm? Why? Because years kids going to the beach late, getting stupid, drowning, and leaving the city with lawsuits, lead to this. Just miles to the east, you can go swimming at Long Beach after 6pm, and it's no big deal. You don't have that police state mentality that the City has. The less accessible a beach is by public transportation, the nicer and cleaner it is. Just compare Beach 116 to Beach 141 in the Rockaways. Or compare the Rockaways to Fire Island. |
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| (337016) | |
Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by BMTLines on Fri Jul 18 20:44:55 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 18 18:35:01 2008. You don't have that police state mentality that the City hasNever mind swimming. Earlier this year a man was arrested for wading in the water at Rockaway. Story here And some people have the nerve to say that we are not living in a nanny |
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Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 18 21:57:09 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jul 18 01:15:55 2008. Yes, I agree. |
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Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jul 18 22:21:33 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 18 18:35:01 2008. We all know what you mean by "people," you might as well spell it out. |
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| (337091) | |
Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jul 18 23:11:34 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by WillD on Fri Jul 18 18:05:00 2008. Dude, you really need help. |
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| (337092) | |
Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jul 18 23:14:24 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 18 18:28:26 2008. Dude, the train has ended at 116th since the LIRR built it there eons ago. That was long before the rise of Rockaway, much less the fall. It's not "no coincidence" at all that the line ends at 116th, that's where it ended from the beginning. |
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| (337093) | |
Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jul 18 23:16:43 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Jul 18 23:11:34 2008. And sorry, yes, the conspiracy theory is not that the parkways were built to not to allow for trucks or buses, but that it was done specifically as to not "make it easy" for city people, specifically blacks to come to Jones Beach. It doesn't matter what Caro says in a book biased against RM. RM was no angel, don't get me wrong, but your whole post just reads conspiracy theory. Sorry. |
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| (338138) | |
Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jul 23 07:57:59 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 17 05:07:55 2008. I don't know why I had to use this story when I just remembered that express buses regularly travel on the FDR south of 23rd Street, and I've been on one more recently than any school bus. Just look at the Staten Island Bus Map (pdf). Or look at the back of the Manhattan Bus map (pdf) and check out the X25 and X90. |
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Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Jul 23 09:50:56 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 17 05:07:55 2008. However, if he knows about it and is doing it anyway...why does that driver have a CDL in the first place? |
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Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jul 23 11:03:19 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Jul 23 09:50:56 2008. I don't know about that, it was just speculation on my part. Speculation that I can safely dismiss because I know for different reasons altogether (see my response to my own post) that buses are allowed on the FDR below 23rd. |
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Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by (4) Lexington Av Exp on Wed Jul 23 14:01:22 2008, in response to Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Jul 16 14:18:59 2008. Somewhat O/T but what about the cruiser-type buses (Greyhound, Megabus, Academy, etc.) that use the Central Park transverses? |
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Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Wed Jul 23 14:09:59 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by (4) Lexington Av Exp on Wed Jul 23 14:01:22 2008. CP Transverses only have a height restriction. |
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Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by pd11604 on Wed Jul 23 17:37:46 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jul 23 07:57:59 2008. This may have something to do with the fact that NYCT-MTA buses are registered as "official" vehicles on the license plate while other buses are regustered as "bus" "school bus" or "omnibus".Official vehicles can travel where others can't |
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Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 24 00:24:04 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by pd11604 on Wed Jul 23 17:37:46 2008. But that wasn't true for all of the DOT-franchised express buses. The ones purchased by the City carried official plates, but others carried omnibus plates. They all used the FDR (at least the Command BM-routes). |
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Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by Forest Glen on Thu Jul 24 11:07:45 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 24 00:24:04 2008. It's an open secret that commercial traffic is allowed on the FDR south of 23rd Street. |
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Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 24 11:39:24 2008, in response to Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Wed Jul 16 14:18:59 2008. I guess they are allowed. Yesterday, AGAIN, this time between Cypress Hills Street and Cypress Ave, I passed a full length school bus. I got off at Cypress Ave, but the bus continued on towards Bushwick Ave. The bridge just before Cypress Ave is 8 feet 11 inches (I guess the clearance nimbers are for the lower ends of the arch), and the school bus had no problem passing under it, even if "close". |
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Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways? |
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Posted by Forest Glen on Thu Jul 24 19:20:21 2008, in response to Re: Since when are buses allowed on the Parkways?, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Thu Jul 24 11:39:24 2008. On the Grand Central between Kew Gardens and the LIE they have a series of arches. The listed clearance is 9'9" even though those arches are clearly over 13 feet high. Perhaps they're simple trying to discourage trucks from using parkways. |
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