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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Joe V on Thu May 9 16:02:48 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by AlM on Thu May 9 15:56:04 2019.

Assuming buses would stop every 3 blocks than 2, and maybe put some stops on the far side of the traffic light, set your alarm clock 2 minutes earlier, walk an extra block, get on the bus that makes 1/3 fewer stops and get to work work more than 2 minutes sooner.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by AlM on Thu May 9 16:17:13 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Joe V on Thu May 9 16:02:48 2019.

Yes, that's great for me, and for most bus riders. It's not so great for people for whom the extra block is agony.

Just observing, not claiming that fewer stops are a mistake.



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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 9 17:33:23 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Thu May 9 14:07:24 2019.

Why does a bus that runs rarely need a bus lane when there was no heavy traffic before the bus lane?

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 10 05:10:59 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 9 17:33:23 2019.

I'm not familiar with the exact location in question, but when BrooklynBus says something, my gut tells me reality is likely a full 180 degrees from what he is claiming.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri May 10 06:13:26 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 10 05:10:59 2019.

Yes, try to discredit me when you don't know the facts. Typical of you.

The location in question is Kings Highway between Avenue K and Flatbush Ave. The bus lane is in effect 24/7 but there is no SBS service on weekends. The local for some reason runs on a different street. The only bus on weekends is the B7 which operates every 20 minutes on Saturdays and every half hour on Sundays.

Before the exclusive lane there was never any traffic congestion along Kings Highway east of East 22 Street even during rush hours. The speed limit is 25 mph and DOT data showed average bus speeds of 21 mph before SBS. Since the bus has to make stops there is no way SBS could make the buses go any faster which is why I opposed it as well as the bus lanes.

Now traffic along Kings Highway is much slower and congested especially near Beth Israel Hospital with only one lane in the main road and one in the service road which they narrowed to widen the islands for bus shelters. There is virtually no place to switch between the main road and service roads, which also slows traffic. They also changed the traffic cycles for example at Bedford Avenue where you now can only make a left turn on a green arrow even when there is no opposing traffic. The arrow only allows about three cars on a signal. So that means you have to always wait a minute for the arrow and might not get through on the first one, when before a left turn was no problem at all.

The city is doing everything possible to increase traffic congestion and they are not even helping bus riders in the process. Then they blame those who must drive for that increased congestion and make sure that every time a pedestrian is hit by a car, it is top news, in order to give all drivers a bad name and make it appear that everyone drives unsafely.

Years ago, auto accidents, now renamed crashes to make it appear that everyone is preventable, were only in the news when it was a hit and run or on holiday weekends when the headline was something like 404 people killed last Labor Day weekend. Drive safely this weekend. Anyone remember that? With safer cars these days, and more people being careful, you don't hear those statistics any more, but the media would like you to believe there are more deaths today when in fact it is far fewer.

The goal is to make driving a hardship under the disguise that they are improving bus service. In order to do that, they need to restructure routes, fill transit deserts, and operate more frequent service, not cut service and eliminate bus stops and add SBS and reduce local service.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri May 10 06:41:41 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Fri May 10 05:10:59 2019.

Well, he's 100% correct about this one.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri May 10 07:47:28 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue May 7 12:15:41 2019.

How come transit ridership in places like Europe and Asia isn't suffering even though the bus stops in those places are much further apart on average than in the US?

Paris bus use was down 1.3% from 2016 to 2017.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri May 10 08:11:19 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue May 7 12:15:41 2019.

I'd rather walk a little further to the bus if that means a faster trip once I get to the bus stop.

The object should be reducing trip time - not vehicle traveling speed. There's a disconnect in NYC. Average NYC trip distance is rather short - only 2.1 miles. Dividing the trip distance by the average vehicle speed gives the average trip duration. NYC's average trip duration is already among the shortest in the US.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri May 10 08:45:56 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri May 10 06:41:41 2019.

Thanks.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri May 10 08:51:52 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Joe V on Thu May 9 16:02:48 2019.

Most buses already stop every three blocks. Many of the stops that used to be every other block has long been eliminated. What the ďyoungĒ people are asking now is that they stop every five blocks or every quarter mile. Where there are Avenue blocks, it would be every other avenue or every six blocks. Considering that many do not live on the street where the bus operates and routes are spaced about every half mile, that increases the maximum walk to one half mile for some which is the same standard as a walk to a subway. People are willing to walk further to a subway than to a bus because trips are generally longer, so increasing bus stop spacing would just result in reduced ridership, not increased ridership as more will opt for more convenient choices even if they are more expensive or would just not make discretionary trips.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri May 10 08:52:47 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by AlM on Thu May 9 16:17:13 2019.

Some stops certainly can be eliminated, but it has to be done on a case by case basis, not by applying some uniform standard.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri May 10 08:54:30 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri May 10 08:11:19 2019.

Thank you. That is the point I have been making for several years now. Too much of an emphasis on increasing bus speed and no emphasis on reducing passenger trip time.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri May 10 09:36:49 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri May 10 07:47:28 2019.

Is that Mode TCSP the tram system? 134% increase reported there. Was there some major event in that department? I ask because the drop in bus ridership may be due not to bus shortcomings but due to a rise of an alternate means.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri May 10 11:19:43 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri May 10 08:11:19 2019.

PWN3D!

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri May 10 11:29:19 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri May 10 09:36:49 2019.

Looks like a 2.7% increase there. Where did you get 134%?

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri May 10 12:16:49 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by AlM on Thu May 9 15:56:04 2019.

Thus the benefit of overlaying a limited stop bus. After grossly mis-estimating demand for express and local service, CDTA up here eventually got the Central Ave corridor right.
Limited Stop 905:
Rush hours every 10-12 minutes
Midday and Saturday, every 15 minutes
Sunday every 20 minutes

The local buses which stop at every traffic light are divided at the center of the route.
Schenectady based 355: all times every 30 minutes
Albany based 1:
Weekdays every 15 minutes
Saturdays every 20 minutes
Sunday every 30 minutes

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by AlM on Fri May 10 12:42:41 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri May 10 12:16:49 2019.

Geez, these are the bus frequencies on a main corridor?




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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri May 10 14:01:59 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri May 10 08:54:30 2019.

no emphasis on reducing passenger trip time.

I suggest that the first step is to ascertain origin-destination pair distribution before suggesting solutions.

It's obvious from the LEHD census data that most journey to work bus trips are feeders to/from a subway station. This presents a problem for Queens because the street network around the Jamaica and Flushing terminals is already saturated with bus traffic.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri May 10 14:06:39 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri May 10 09:36:49 2019.

I ask because the drop in bus ridership may be due not to bus shortcomings but due to a rise of an alternate means.

Every building in the 20 arrondisments is within 500 meters (0.31 mi) a subway entrance. There's very little need for buses. The ratio of bus trips to subway to bus trips shows how little buses are used compared to NYC.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri May 10 16:21:28 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by AlM on Fri May 10 12:42:41 2019.

Not just a main corridor, but the *busiest* corridor of the network. Something like 25% of passenger trips for the entire bus system use this corridor. These buses are standing room only most of the day, every day, except for some of the #1s during peak that happen to slot in behind a 905 (since most people prefer the 905).

CDTA is allergic to anything better than every 10 minutes, resulting in some very crowded peak buses. They are going to try a new BRT corridor in a few years with a dedicated busway at 6 minute intervals using artics, hoping it will siphon off passengers from the #12 (every 15 minutes, except PM peak every 10 minutes), #11 (every 12 minutes weekdays, 24 weekends), and #10 (every 20 minutes, except peak every 15 minutes). Since they're trying to combine the functions of 3 busy routes, they might create a new corridor from nothing which will beat Central Ave's ridership.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by BusRider on Fri May 10 17:27:40 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri May 10 16:21:28 2019.

River corridor is scheduled to begin Fall w2020, Washington corridor pushed back a other two years again.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri May 10 19:49:01 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by JerBear on Thu May 9 07:38:58 2019.

The MTA does all its SBS studies one year after implementation and doesnít release any further data in future years. That is problem number one. The exception is if the data isnít positive after the first year, they wait until the end of the second year to release results as with the B44. If the data still isnít positive after two years, as with the B46, they donít release any data and hope it will be positive after the third year.

As for how much time is saved, except for the Woodhaven routes where they reported passengers riding for three miles saved three minutes, all the other savings have been measured from one end of the route to the other, and no one rides an entire route to benefit from the entire savings and even those savings are questionable. They claimed the B44 SBS can travel the entire route in 15 minutes less time, but drivers claim the trip takes up to twice the scheduled time. So who do you believe?

It is hard to tell how much of the savings are from the lanes, most of which are not enforced, and how much by using all doors and not having to dip. Thatís why I quoted the M86 because there are no exclusive lanes to speak of. I understand the M79 which does have lanes saves more time than the M86.

I donít understand your question about Joe Schmoe. The schedule supposed to take into account average real conditions which includes if you have to dip or not, so dipping is irrelevant to keeping on schedule.

Fare evasion is a separate issue. For years the MTA insisted it was within industry standards of 3 percent and enforcement was not necessary until the Daily News did their own study and determined it was 14 percent. Then the MTA stepped up enforcement. Then because of driver safety, drivers were instructed not to insist passengers pay their fare, so naturally evasion went up.

As fare as SBS, fare enforcement is its most expensive component. Although the Eagle Team has been expanded, it is not expanded as quickly as SBS routes are added, so as time goes on, your chances of getting caught for not having a receipt goes down and the riders know it. The MTA also knows which routes have the greatest amount of evasion and that where they target their enforcement the most. Regular riders on some routes claim to have not seen any enforcement for months. When a new SBS route takes effect after a few months there is regular enforcement and then the team moves to other routes and only returns if they determine ridership is dwindling. I believe that is what happened with the B44 and why ridership tanked the first year because there was little enforcement and the riders knew it. Why pay if no one checks? So they increased enforcement the second year to be able to show a ridership increase the second year. After that it has gone down each year, but they do t need to do any more reports anyway so they donít care. They got their ridership increase to show in their report to claim the route a success.

The machines have a five year lifetime. Thatís why it makes no sense to start new SBS routes until at least OMNI is in effect. Yes when that is in effect you will be able to tap and enter on any door for all routes. But unless they add turnstiles for the rear doors, I donít know how they will ensure everyone pays. I guess they could have cameras with facial recognition so they could somehow summons you if you donít tap.

We donít have the street space for real BRT. Most other cities use abandoned rail rights of way for BRT or else donít have the amount of traffic NYC does where they can afford to lose general traffic lanes without greatly increasing traffic congestion. Some also provide parking so you can leave your car and switch to BRT. We donít do that here.

When did they fly 15 or 20 years ago?

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat May 11 03:00:39 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri May 10 11:29:19 2019.

I was looking near the bottom right corner of page 6; it mentions the 134% rise of something. Maybe a decimal is missing? It may not be the trams; do you know what it is?

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat May 11 03:10:56 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri May 10 14:06:39 2019.

Every building in the 20 arrondisments is within 500 meters (0.31 mi) a subway entrance. There's very little need for buses. The ratio of bus trips to subway to bus trips shows how little buses are used compared to NYC.

I can appreciate that, but within the context of this thread what does that mean? There are still lots of bus lines in Paris and when I was there about six years ago, they seemed to get used, especially the ones that use artics (lines 62, 80, 95 come to mind). If indeed ridership has gone down, I'd be interested in why. I was suggesting it could be something other than the bus stop spacing (unless bus stop spacing was significantly adjusted in the year the drop was reported).

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by TransitChuckG on Sat May 11 13:43:11 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by BusRider on Fri May 10 17:27:40 2019.

I used to work on Green Island, lived in cheap motel in Watervliet, NY.That was back in the early 1960's. I have not been up there since . Your talk about CDTA rang a bell with me.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sat May 11 20:51:04 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri May 10 06:13:26 2019.

I don't discredit you, you do a great job of discrediting yourself and sullying your reputation without any of my help.

How do you know the people the city "blames" for creating congestion "must" drive? How do you know that crashes are on the rise and that none of them are the fault of the person operating a motor vehicle? Why shouldn't attention be given to pedestrian fatalities seeing as those pedestrians are DEAD? Auto accidents are often preventable, and while not every pedestrian or cyclist or other road user is an angel, designing roads and streets solely to facilitate motorized vehicular traffic puts pedestrians, cyclists, and others at grave risk.

Installing bus lanes, bus bulbs, and the like is not a disguise for improving bus service. Those are proven ways to keep buses moving. You say they should restructure routes and operate more frequent service, but then say they shouldn't cut service, eliminate bus service, or operate SBS services. You can't have it both ways.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sat May 11 20:51:21 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri May 10 06:41:41 2019.

A stopped clock is still right twice a day.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sat May 11 20:56:32 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri May 10 07:47:28 2019.

And is that 1.3% somehow directly attributable to the distance between stops? As New Flyer 857 points out, buses aren't exactly the primary mode of public transit in Paris, and they have been expanding the tram network in recent years.

I lived in Rome for 5 months in 2008, bus stops are far apart, the streets are not exactly easily traversable for anyone who isn't able bodied, but the buses are packed and people get to the stops somehow. Not sure of any ridership statistics there however.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sat May 11 20:57:36 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri May 10 08:52:47 2019.

So you start with your uniform standard, and then start looking at things on a stop by stop basis. I thought you are a professional transit planner...

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sat May 11 20:58:51 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri May 10 08:11:19 2019.

How do you suggest reducing trip time without a change in vehicle speeds of some sort? There is typically some relationship between the two.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat May 11 21:07:05 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sat May 11 20:51:21 2019.

So? Maybe attack the idea instead of the person.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat May 11 21:07:32 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat May 11 21:07:05 2019.

And yes, I realize that sounds hypocritical, but whatever.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun May 12 02:50:42 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sat May 11 20:56:32 2019.

And is that 1.3% somehow directly attributable to the distance between stops?

The distance between bus stops is comparable to the Metro. It offers no comparable advantage to taking the Metro.

they have been expanding the tram network in recent years.

The tram network serves the near suburbs not the 20 arrondisments.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun May 12 03:00:42 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat May 11 03:00:39 2019.

The 134% refers to the amount of service offered by the tram network, not the number of passengers actually carried.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun May 12 03:19:19 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun May 12 03:00:42 2019.

Thanks.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Joe V on Sun May 12 05:02:08 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sat May 11 20:51:04 2019.

There has to be some bus volume criteria to establish a bus lane. What is that ?

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by JerBear on Sun May 12 07:20:23 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri May 10 19:49:01 2019.

I don't mean they flew like driving your own car, I just mean compared to today. I don't know when things started to really slow down, but I think of it as after 9/11, before the recession... There seemed to be more stops on buses and more cars on the road than there used to be... But it could just be me getting older and everything seeming better in the old days. I haven't ever seen like average speeds on streets in the city year-by-year. Do they track that kind of thing?

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by BrooklynBus on Sun May 12 11:20:25 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by JerBear on Sun May 12 07:20:23 2019.

I really don't think bus speeds are slowing down anymore than car speeds. Buses like cars are no longer legally permitted to go faster than 25 mph on virtually every single streets. When DeBlasio was running for mayor the first tine, he promised that aterials would be exempted from this limit. Instead, they became his first target even before he enacted a Vision Zero. He called it slow speed zones. That meant tbat buses as well as cars had to slow down. And it will get worse next year with a tripling of speed cameras and changing where they will be allowed. Now they will be allowed in a quarter mile radius of a school instead of in a sraight line so virtually the entire city will be in a school zone. Instead of only school hours, they will be allowed until 11 PM and the speed at which you will be fined will be reduced from 36 mph to 30 mph.

So as people are forced to drive yet slower in the name of safety, but really only for revenue purposes, buses will also slow down more.

Back to buses, before 1969, dwell times took three times as long as riders fumbled for exact change or the drivers had to give them change. Some passengers held up a bus for 15 to 30 seconds, and 3 minutes at at bus stops with ten passengers getting on was common.

The number of cars on the road has been decreasing in recent years with many young people refusing to learn how to drive. Congestion is going up because of overdevelopment, fewer garages and parking lots, fewer traffic lanes, fewer places to make turns, many more unnecessary traffic signals, intentional unsynchronization of signals, little improvements in mass transit or roadways, and way fewer parking spaces so you must drive around much longer looking for a parking space.

I wouldn't say that I always obey the speed limit, but if I use the streets exclusively, my car says my average speed is between 9 and 12 mph. So bus speeds have to be much lower since they have to make stops.

I really don't think there are more bus stops today. If anything, there are fewer stops. If buses used to be faster, it is because of the reasons I mentioned why all traffic is much slower and it will only get worse if the city continues doing what they are doing.

I don't know about keeping track of average speeds.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun May 12 18:58:24 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun May 12 02:50:42 2019.

I never gave any thought to taking a bus when I was in Paris. As I said before, I don't get the sense it is as critical within Paris itself as buses are in certain parts of New York City. I'd be interested in knowing about the ridership trends in other cities and understanding how the 1.3% decrease in Parisian bus ridership fits in to the larger picture of the transit network there before drawing any specific conclusions.

Bus stops every 500 meters on average would still be further apart than the average stop spacing in NYC and many other US cities IINM.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun May 12 19:00:50 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Joe V on Sun May 12 05:02:08 2019.

Varies from place to place, NACTO says "Dedicated bus lanes are typically applied on major routes with frequent headways (10 minutes at peak) or where traffic congestion may significantly affect reliability."

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun May 12 19:15:47 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by BrooklynBus on Sun May 12 11:20:25 2019.

We've been through this before.

Speed kills. The likelihood that a pedestrian hit by a car (regardless of fault) goes up significantly as vehicle speed increases. Now you want to eliminate traffic control devices that make it safer for pedestrians to cross streets and for cars to enter major arterials as well?

An oversupply of parking also causes congestion, especially if that parking is free or people are conditioned to expect that parking to be free. Making it harder for people to park increases transit use, decreases rents, and provides other benefits to society.

You complain about increased congestion and unreliable bus service, but then oppose the ideas that would solve those issues, especially the latter one. FWIW, I've noticed no significant change in vehicle speeds when I've driven on East 79th Street since bus lanes were installed there. If anything, traffic moves better with fewer car lanes because there is less merging at intersections as cars try to get around vehicles waiting to make left turns. Travel times on the M79 have decreased and the service is much more reliable as an SBS route than as a standard bus route. Maybe NYCDOT and the MTA are on to something...

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon May 13 03:01:16 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun May 12 18:58:24 2019.

Bus stops every 500 meters on average would still be further apart than the average stop spacing in NYC and many other US cities IINM.

Buses and the Metro don't operate on/under every street. Stops along the bus and Metro lines must be closer than 500 meters to be 500 meters from every building. The RATP GTFS data doesn't include a shape.txt file, so I cannot calculate how close bus and Metro stops are.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon May 13 03:49:55 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun May 12 18:58:24 2019.

In Paris, I would use the buses for scenery when on a leisurely itinerary. They were good (not that slow) and even if it took a little longer the trip was sometimes more enjoyable. That's not to take away from the excellent Metro system there though.

I tend to seek out buses intentionally in other European cities too -- great way to take a look around without having to either book a tour or rent a car.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by AlM on Mon May 13 04:39:59 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun May 12 19:15:47 2019.

I've seen worse non-bus traffic, on occasion, not consistently, on 23rd Street since the introduction of the bus lanes. I don't take that bus so I don't know if its travel time has improved much.



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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon May 13 08:53:42 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun May 12 19:15:47 2019.

Yes, we have been through this before. You were wrong then, and you are wrong now.

The reasoning that a pedestrian has twice as much likelihood as being killed by a car going at 25 is twice as high as cars going at 30 is the sole basis for reducing the speed limit.

Let's look at other facts for once. When a law makes no sense, most will not abide by it. That's why when possible virtually no one abides by the 25 mph speed limit. If you drive you would know that and how ridiculous that law is. In fact it makes things more dangerous because it lures drivers into a false sense of security that if they do 25, they are being safe, when there are many instances when 25 IS TOO FAST. A lowest common denominator approach doesn't work for anything. NO ONE SIZE FITS ALL. Everything needs to be tailored to fit specific conditions.

No look at the cases where pedestrians are being killed. What percent are killed by cars going faster than 25 mph and what percent are killed by careless drivers turning at 20 mph? I believe those killed by turning vehicles are higher.

Now let's look at the percent of people who are killed by drivers going between 25 mph and 30 mph versus those killed by those speeding at 40, 50, 60 or 70 mph on city streets. Most are killed by those going above 40, not under 40. If someone will not abide by a 30 mph speed limit. They certainly won't abide by a 25 mph speed limit. IT IS WRONG TO RELY ON ONE SINGLE STATISTIC, when there are so many other factors at play.

Queens Blvd is safer today, NOT BECAUSE THE SPEED LIMIT WAS LOWERED, first of all because no one abides by the lower limit, but because FENCING PREVENTS JAYWALKERS FROM CROSSING MIDBLOCK. If you drove there or walked there you would know that, instead of reading newspaper articles or TV clips from Washington DC.

As far as eliminating traffic control devices, that you say make it safer for pedestrians, where is your proof that that is the case?

All those signals intentionally not in sync, that have been placed around every school don't make it safer if virtually no one is crossing there for 20 hours a day. School Crossing Guards used be the only thing needed to keep things safe. All those signals have accomplished, was to make it more difficult to travel anywhere by car as well as by bus.

Being that they are already there, they should only be flashing yellow for 20 of the 24 hours. It will be just as safe and traffic congestion will be reduced. Of course increased traffic congestion is one of your priorities, (but you renamed it traffic calming) because you and others like you just want to punish anyone who drives. Just heard a proposal today to charge drivers for every mile they drive. Of course you would support that.

Funny that when traffic signals are not functioning and are replaced by a flashing yellow or flashing red, the congestion at intersections disappear. Where I am, there was never congestion at one intersection that had a four way stop sign, until it was replaced with signals. If signals make things safer, why have many cities replaced some with traffic circles that have no signals? It is because drivers are more cautious when there is no signal, than when there is one.

Then you talk of an oversupply of parking. I have news for you. There are virtually no neighborhoods in NYC with an over supply of parking. Where there is an oversupply, there are virtually no cars either. So to say an oversupply causes congestion JUST ISNT TRUE.

And please explain how making harder to park decreases rents. Rents are the highest where it is difficult to park. So I would say the opposite is true.

As far as 79 Street is concerned, I would tend to agree with you on that point only.



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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Joe V on Mon May 13 09:12:30 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon May 13 08:53:42 2019.

When I visit Kew Gardens or Forest Hills every year or so, and want to cross Queens Blvd, I use the subway mezzanines.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon May 13 09:15:46 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon May 13 08:53:42 2019.

All those signals intentionally not in sync, that have been placed around every school don't make it safer if virtually no one is crossing there for 20 hours a day. School Crossing Guards used be the only thing needed to keep things safe. All those signals have accomplished, was to make it more difficult to travel anywhere by car as well as by bus.

At the very least those signals should be school hours only. Or maybe just enforce yield to pedestrians in crosswalk.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon May 13 13:53:22 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon May 13 09:15:46 2019.

The speed cameras in school zones should also be school hours only, but Cuomo just extended the hours from 6 AM to 9 PM. Again, revenue in the name of safety. Then they lowered the maximum speed not to get ticketed from 35 mph to 29 mph. If there is no traffic and no people around, it is virtually impossible not to catch yourself doing 30. Everyone will be getting summonses, a windfall the city, and people will start driving more slowly because the entire city will now be a school zone since they also can place cameras within a quarter mile radius from any school, even if it is a preschool with a hundred students. I say this because I see school crossing signs that are no where near any school I can see. Before it had to be a quarter mike along a street alongside a school.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon May 13 16:02:21 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon May 13 13:53:22 2019.

Source for the speed lowering?

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon May 13 18:36:25 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon May 13 13:53:22 2019.

The signs are there so if you can't see the school, you'll pay more attention (hopefully). I cannot find any information that you'll get a ticket at 29 MPH, it makes no sense to enact such a change because then anyone who challenges the ticket on the basis of calibration issues is likely to win their case. The existing rules were that the cameras could be used in school zones during after school and weekend activities, which makes plenty of sense to me. The NY Daily News reports that "Data has shown the cameras, which hit speeding drivers with a $50 ticket when they go more than 10 mph above the speed limit, have been effective in making streets safer. Speeding during school hours dropped by 63% and traffic injuries dropped by 14% where cameras were in place from 2014 to 2016." Sounds like a worthwhile program to me.

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