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(12918)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Jul 23 11:58:34 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Jul 23 11:57:41 2006.

I think Ron would like to have the ultimate gay sex with you.

(12919)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Jul 23 11:58:43 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 08:29:45 2006.

That has nothing to do with what we are talking about

(12920)

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Re: Cut and Cover explanation

Posted by R30A on Sun Jul 23 12:00:50 2006, in response to Re: Cut and Cover explanation, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 11:58:18 2006.

The MTA isnt defining cut and cover.
The MTA is defining HOW THEY WILL USE cut and cover ON THE SECOND AVENUE SUBWAY.
Their definition is correct for the use it was given in, describing a specific situation Their definition is incorrect for tunnelling through a field, as well... SAS is not tunnelling through any fields so it is irrellevant.

(12921)

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Re: Maps and Problems with Rockaway ROW

Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Jul 23 12:01:07 2006, in response to Re: Maps and Problems with Rockaway ROW, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 08:07:54 2006.

Give it 5 years and you'll understand what I'm talking about.

What will you do during those 5 years? Have ultimate gay sex with him?

(12922)

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Re: Thank you

Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Jul 23 12:07:56 2006, in response to Re: Thank you, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 08:43:23 2006.

Whereas you make none. No one would miss you if you died. Except those that you have the ultimate gay sex with maybe.

(12923)

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Re: Cut and Cover explanation

Posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Sun Jul 23 12:08:25 2006, in response to Re: Cut and Cover explanation, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 10:46:28 2006.

Cut & cover doesn't neccessarily mean the bulk of the construction is done after it is covered. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.

(12924)

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Re: Cut and Cover explanation

Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Jul 23 12:09:26 2006, in response to Re: Cut and Cover explanation, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 11:58:18 2006.

you're a sandy asshole

(12925)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Sun Jul 23 12:10:14 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 10:30:51 2006.

Ever stand near a subway grating? Embankments are quieter, unless you're talking deep bore subways. A sound barrier (maybe done up with some artsy murals on the side or some other BS) would suffice for both hiding the trains as well as muffling whatever traction sounds are made.

(12926)

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Re: Maps and Problems with Rockaway ROW

Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Jul 23 12:11:02 2006, in response to Re: Maps and Problems with Rockaway ROW, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 08:30:55 2006.

Politics politics politics. You run at the slightest sign of conflict and when you can't run, you claim politics is the reason something can't be done. I wouldn't expect you to know a damn thing about politics, not is Kansas, and certainly not in New York.

(12927)

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Re: Cut and Cover explanation

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Jul 23 12:11:43 2006, in response to Re: Cut and Cover explanation, posted by R30A on Sun Jul 23 12:00:50 2006.

Cut and cover:

http://www.ravprapidtransit.com/constructionMethodsCandC.asp

http://www.cowi.com/cowi/en/menu/services/transport/tunnels/cutandcovertunnels/








Anticlimber?

(12928)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Jul 23 12:14:09 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 08:36:35 2006.

Yes, there is something you(ok, not you, but other residents) could do about it. A politician will go with the majority. If the majority is opposed to this, then they will join the opposition. If the majority is FOR the line, then the politicians will join that side. It's just a matter of getting people to support the line. I wouldn't expect those directly along the line to support it, but I would expect other people in the neighborhood to. And you know what? Those people, are the majority. Now THAT is how politics work.

(12929)

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Re: Cut and Cover explanation

Posted by R30A on Sun Jul 23 12:14:18 2006, in response to Re: Cut and Cover explanation, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Jul 23 12:11:43 2006.

LOL Anticlimber

(12930)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Sun Jul 23 12:17:19 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Jul 23 11:02:14 2006.

OH, you're that guy! Cool website.

(12931)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Jul 23 12:20:07 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Jul 23 11:58:34 2006.

I must have missed that thread....where does the ultimate gay sex thing come in?

(12932)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Jul 23 12:22:12 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by David of Broadway on Sun Jul 23 10:42:48 2006.

BUT I DON'T WANNA!

(12933)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Jul 23 12:37:19 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by R30A on Sun Jul 23 10:28:29 2006.

And then what would I do at Woodside? Roosevelt Av? I don't think so. Queens Blvd can sacarfice a lane in each direction. Also, I have an ulterior motive here. Revert the Q60 to trolley/light rail.

(12934)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Jul 23 12:38:55 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Jul 23 12:20:07 2006.

http://www.subchat.com/read.asp?Id=284823

(12935)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Jul 23 12:42:45 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Jul 23 11:58:34 2006.

Sorry Ron, I don't play for that team.

(12936)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Jul 23 12:59:26 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Jul 23 12:38:55 2006.

Oh, alright, I knew I was missing something.

(12937)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 13:51:59 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Jul 23 11:58:43 2006.

Your lack of understanding is your problem...

(12938)

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Re: Cut and Cover explanation

Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 13:54:10 2006, in response to Re: Cut and Cover explanation, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Jul 23 12:11:43 2006.

I've bookmarked the COWI site.

(12939)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by The Port of Authority on Sun Jul 23 13:54:22 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 08:16:43 2006.

And a LRT for the Rockaway line would cost significantly less than that.

(12940)

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Re: Maps and Problems with Rockaway ROW

Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 13:57:51 2006, in response to Re: Maps and Problems with Rockaway ROW, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Jul 23 12:11:02 2006.

If I were dictator and could run over the NIMBYs and put them in jail for opposing transit projects, wouldn't that be convenient?

(12941)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 14:00:05 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Sun Jul 23 12:10:14 2006.

Except that nobody builds subway gratings anymore. What you missed was that new transit construction uses ventilation plants. Look at the way the 63rd st line was built.



(12942)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by The Port of Authority on Sun Jul 23 14:02:01 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 14:00:05 2006.

And those can be even louder than noise from subway gratings.

(12943)

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Re: Cut and Cover explanation

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jul 23 14:02:45 2006, in response to Re: Cut and Cover explanation, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Jul 23 12:09:26 2006.


Yikes, that would only increase the friction.

(12944)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 14:02:46 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Jul 23 12:14:09 2006.

Agreed.

(12945)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 14:05:12 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by The Port of Authority on Sun Jul 23 13:54:22 2006.

Actually it would cost zero - because nobody would allow you to build it.

(12946)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 14:06:23 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by The Port of Authority on Sun Jul 23 14:02:01 2006.

Sorry, I forgot that you invented them. I should have asked you first. :0)

(12947)

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Re: Cut and Cover explanation

Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 14:07:32 2006, in response to Re: Cut and Cover explanation, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jul 23 14:02:45 2006.

Not much friction when Brian resurrected on the subway track...I'm sure it was real slick...:0)

(12948)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by The Port of Authority on Sun Jul 23 14:20:30 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 14:05:12 2006.

Why not?

RonIsBS's typical answer: "Politics."

(12949)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 14:39:47 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Jul 23 12:42:45 2006.

Brian doesn't believe in sex. The Messiah who rose up on a subway track has a dim view of others who do...(source: J4B pamphlet handed out at 59th and Lex)

(12950)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Sun Jul 23 14:43:38 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 14:39:47 2006.

Cut it out already. You aren't funny.

(12951)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by Edwards! on Sun Jul 23 16:19:06 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by RonInBayside on Fri Jul 21 22:36:27 2006.

Or you can open the row embankment itself...and insert a box tunnel in it..add stations..connect it to an operating route.

(12952)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 16:29:15 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by Edwards! on Sun Jul 23 16:19:06 2006.

Yes, absolutely. Thank you.

(12953)

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Re: Maps and Problems with Rockaway ROW

Posted by WillD on Sun Jul 23 17:24:23 2006, in response to Re: Maps and Problems with Rockaway ROW, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 08:34:10 2006.

No he didn't, you attempted to use a non-sequitor to justify your apologizing for the actions of shortsighted NIMBYs.

(12954)

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Re: Maps and Problems with Rockaway ROW

Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 17:28:00 2006, in response to Re: Maps and Problems with Rockaway ROW, posted by WillD on Sun Jul 23 17:24:23 2006.

I'm not apologizing for them. I'm accepting the fact that they have a vote, and I can't jail them, shoot them or put masking tape on their mouths because they want to block transit projects or even if they succeed in blocking them.

(12955)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by SMAZ on Sun Jul 23 17:31:56 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Jul 23 07:55:01 2006.


Indeed. And that's my point. Ownership of the ROW is intact as far as the City is concerned. Any encroachment is illegal and can be vacated or demolished. That's why I reject Ron's argument that it may have only room for one track in certain portions. While technically true, such encroachment can be ended tommorrow. (and at the "encroacher's" expense.)

(12956)

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Why Ron Is Wrong: (was:Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch)

Posted by WillD on Sun Jul 23 17:32:12 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Jul 23 10:45:57 2006.

Thank you Chris. Despite Ron's attempts to rationalize his insane position that tunneling under an existing grade separated right of way would somehow be cheaper you've succinctly summed up just how incorrect he is.

(12957)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 17:36:10 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by SMAZ on Sun Jul 23 17:31:56 2006.

You can hope so. I hope I'm wrong on that point. But it gets even more complicated than that.

(12958)

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Re: Why Ron Is Wrong: (was:Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch)

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Jul 23 17:36:39 2006, in response to Why Ron Is Wrong: (was:Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch), posted by WillD on Sun Jul 23 17:32:12 2006.


Is it wise to waste energy proving Ron is wrong? It happens all the time, we all know it, and he never admits it.

(12959)

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Re: Why Will needs to keep studying and finish school

Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 17:37:53 2006, in response to Why Ron Is Wrong: (was:Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch), posted by WillD on Sun Jul 23 17:32:12 2006.

Neither Chris nor you have considered all the possible approaches to construction.

(12960)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by SMAZ on Sun Jul 23 17:41:12 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Jul 23 08:27:53 2006.


The cost of construction material, fuel and other related expenses have risen dramatically too in recent years.

(12961)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by SMAZ on Sun Jul 23 17:50:45 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sun Jul 23 08:18:05 2006.


I don't think a QB line (be it the V or R) would be successful at replacing the A Express in Rock Park. It would be slow and hated. The dormant portion of the Rock on the other hand would bring lots of riders because they have nothing right now. I would switch the C and V at W4 then after Euclid the V would contine and turn north onto the existing Ozone Park viaduct via a new structure and continue on the ROW to a new tunnel at Whitepot Jct. connecting it to the local tracks at 63rd Rd. The V would run a circular route in both directions. Nothing would run nights as a concession to the NIMBYs. On weekends and holidays between Memorial and Labor Day the G would run express on the Culver from CI, then local on the QB to Rock Park using this route. The Beach to Beach route.

(12962)

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Ron's Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by WillD on Sun Jul 23 17:51:47 2006, in response to Re: Why Will needs to keep studying and finish school, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 17:37:53 2006.

And you have? You are advocating the destruction of a grade separated right of way and digging under it to create an open cut or cut and cover subway line. You're also for some completely unfathomable reason claiming that this would be the cheapest way to construct the line. Do you have any idea how batshit insane you sound?

You have simply rolled over and accepted all the fallacies put out by the NIMBYs along the line. Second Avenue and the 50th St ventilation plant for ESA shows that the MTA is capable of fighting misinformation NIMBYs create, and if there were a concerted effort to build an LRT along the Rockaway Line right of way they'd readily be able to fight the NIMBY's pathetic obstruction of a line. For the most part the ROW is 50 feet wide, so it'd be extremely easy to build two LRT tracks, have a bike trail, and still build a line of tree to protect the NIMBYs from the horrible transit line driving their property prices up. The former double track sections of the ROW still have fairly large embankment areas where trees can be planted to keep the houses shielded from the trains.

(12963)

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Re: Maps and Problems with Rockaway ROW

Posted by WillD on Sun Jul 23 18:00:08 2006, in response to Re: Maps and Problems with Rockaway ROW, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 17:28:00 2006.

Nobody is saying to do any of that. However, they are a minority when compared to the many people who are stuck riding cruddy busses across Queens, and as a minority they should not be allowed to dictate terms to the rest of the borough. Their position is somewhat mindboggling when you consider that an LRT built along the Rockaway Line would greatly increase their property value. Of course you've simply accepted their objections at face value, and in the absense of any response from the MTA or municipal government that's all that is out there. NIMBYs will always bitch, and the only way things will ever actually get done will be for those people who will benefit to override the much smaller group of people who may have their neighborhoods disrupted. In any event any disruption would be extremely minor since we're talking a grade separated right of way with room for trees to dampen noise, and an LRT built atop the ROW would have a fairly simple and quick construction period.

Now, since somebody around here wants to destroy the embankment, and then dig down another 12 to 20 feet to build an open cut or cut and cover subway perhaps he could explain how that would be cheaper or less disruptive.

(12964)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by SMAZ on Sun Jul 23 18:01:45 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 10:09:38 2006.


They shoud depict AirTrain with the same color as the old JFK Express and perhaps bring back the airplane bullet on the map. They can find a different color for the full SAS T train when the time comes. I guess they don't want to give the PA such prominence though.

(12965)

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Re: Logic vs. NIMBY

Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 18:08:05 2006, in response to Re: Maps and Problems with Rockaway ROW, posted by WillD on Sun Jul 23 18:00:08 2006.

"However, they are a minority when compared to the many people who are stuck riding cruddy busses across Queens, and as a minority they should not be allowed to dictate terms to the rest of the borough. Their position is somewhat mindboggling when you consider that an LRT built along the Rockaway Line would greatly increase their property value."

Ethically and logically, you are correct. Iam with you on this.

"Of course you've simply accepted their objections at face value, and in the absense of any response from the MTA or municipal government that's all that is out there. NIMBYs will always bitch, and the only way things will ever actually get done will be for those people who will benefit to override the much smaller group of people who may have their neighborhoods disrupted. In any event any disruption would be extremely minor since we're talking a grade separated right of way with room for trees to dampen noise, and an LRT built atop the ROW would have a fairly simple and quick construction period. "

Part of the reason airTrain succeeded is that we were able to show that the NIMBYs were two dozen people whose views were out of step with the community. They were isolated then defeated.

Along the Rockaway ROW, the NIMBYs are better organized and more powerful and morenumerous (but I am not saying they are a majority). So the effort to buy them off, isolate them, persuade them etc. is much, much tougher. Probably not surmountable because the "silent majority" has remained silent and will remain silent. sad but true.

At least with LRT you don't have to deal with the issue of capacity to Manhattan. LIRR commuter rail service along the ROW would not be possible until ESA is completed in 2012 and possibly even later. But your LRT idea does not have that problem.




(12966)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Jul 23 18:09:23 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by SMAZ on Sun Jul 23 18:01:45 2006.

OK.

(12967)

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Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch

Posted by SMAZ on Sun Jul 23 18:09:51 2006, in response to Re: My Route Suggestion of the Old Abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Jul 23 12:14:09 2006.


Absolutely. While the homeowners immediatly adjacent to the line will undoubtly see their home values fall, those in the rest of the neighborhood would see theirs rise due to the vicinity (but not too close) to mass transit. I would not run trains at night as a fair concession to those would would literally hear trains running in their back yards.

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