Tuscarora Almanac for June 8

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Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Jun 8 07:35:57 2018 Tuscarora Almanac – June 8, 1953 – The Book of Last Runs Allentown, Pennsylvania Lehigh Valley Transit Company This is the last day of trolley service by the Lehigh Valley Transit Company. The final regular run will be made by car 955 between Allentown and Bethlehem (PA). It will be followed by car 912 decorated for the occasion and carrying local officials. Source: “Lehigh Valley Transit in Color” (Morning Sun Books / 2011) by Mr. Douglas E. Peters Tuscarora Almanac – June 8, 1958 – The Book of Last Runs Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Philadelphia Transportation Company Route 6 – Ogontz Avenue trolley line is cut back Willow Grove to the Cheltenham Loop at the City Line. The Amusement Park at Willow Grove remained in operation until 2005. Source: “Philadelphia Trolleys in Color”, Volume II, (Morning Sun Books /1998) by Mr. William D. Volkmer Tuscarora Almanac - June 8, 1962 - The Book of Last Runs Queens New York Long Island Railroad The Long Island Railroad ends service on the remaining portion of the Rockaway Beach Branch between Whitepot Junction and Ozone Park. Source: New York Division Bulletin /May, 1994, article by Mr. Larry Kiss Tuscarora Almanac – June 8, 2009 – The Book of First Runs Bronx, New York New York City Transit Authority IRT Division A two week test of thru-express service on the Jerome Avenue Line begins today. Four trains will leave Woodlawn at fifteen minute intervals from 7:15 to 8:00 AM. Stops will be made at Mosholu Parkway, Burnside Avenue, 149th Street and 125th Street. No. 4 trains will then make regular stops. There is no PM thru-express service. Source: New York Division Bulletin /July 2009 Larry, RedbirdR33
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by MainR3664* on Fri Jun 8 11:06:09 2018, in response to Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Jun 8 07:35:57 2018.* Thanks. It seems to me, and others, that the LIRR deliberately set the Rockaway remnant up for failure- one or 2 runs a day, and no connection to the IND in Ozone Park. As we know, the line has sat rotting away ever since- even though it could have been used for Air Train and other transit expansions.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Fri Jun 8 12:33:54 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Jun 8 11:06:09 2018.* It could have been used instead of the damn Woodhaven SBS.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by andy* on Fri Jun 8 14:41:01 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Jun 8 11:06:09 2018.* In the late 1960's the then-new MTA proposed using the old LIRR r.o.w. for a direct LIRR train between Penn and JFK Airport. Needless to say, it did not happen.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by X-Astorian* on Fri Jun 8 15:16:49 2018, in response to Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Jun 8 07:35:57 2018.* Tuscarora Almanac – June 8, 1958 – The Book of Last Runs Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Philadelphia Transportation Company Route 6 – Ogontz Avenue trolley line is cut back Willow Grove to the Cheltenham Loop at the City Line. The Amusement Park at Willow Grove remained in operation until 2005. Source: “Philadelphia Trolleys in Color”, Volume II, (Morning Sun Books /1998) by Mr. William D. Volkmer I believe that Willow Grove Park closed in the mid-70s. A shopping center has stood on the site for decades.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by MainR3664* on Fri Jun 8 15:41:21 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Jun 8 12:33:54 2018.* That as well.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by MainR3664* on Fri Jun 8 15:42:01 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by andy on Fri Jun 8 14:41:01 2018.* Proposed again in the 1990s. NIMBYs killed it then as well.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by IRTRedbirdR33* on Fri Jun 8 16:12:38 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by X-Astorian on Fri Jun 8 15:16:49 2018.* X-Astorian: Your right. The park closed in 1975. I will change the master. Thanks Larry, RedbirdR33
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by randyo* on Fri Jun 8 17:20:45 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Jun 8 11:06:09 2018.* I suspect that the LIRR had all along expected the city to take over the rest of the line between Ozone Pk and Whitepot Jct for use by the NYCTS. A 1950 B of T report that I have actually shows the IND connected to the Rockaways at both Liberty Jct and Whitepot Jct.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by randyo* on Fri Jun 8 17:25:05 2018, in response to Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Jun 8 07:35:57 2018.* The headways established for the Jerome thru exp doomed the service to failure since it offered no incentive for passengers at the exp stations to wait for a thru exp when a regular all stop exp would actually get them downtown sooner. Maybe if alternate Jerome trains operated as thru expresses like the original Wh Pl Rd thru exps in the 1950s, it might have proven useful.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by Fisk Ave Jim* on Fri Jun 8 18:04:37 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Jun 8 11:06:09 2018.* The north end of the Woodhaven Station as it looked from my back yd in the early 80s
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by northshore* on Fri Jun 8 19:09:28 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by randyo on Fri Jun 8 17:20:45 2018.* The LIRR wanted to unload the Rockaway Branch since 1919. It was a money losing seasonal operation. NYC agreed to take it over and incorporate it into the new IND Queens Blvd Line. The plans were made. provisions were built for both the subway and the rebuilding of the LIRR Rockaway Branch to rapid transit specifications. Then WW II interrupted it, and NYC had more important rebuilding of the existing subway infrastructure after the war to focus on. The 1950 abruptly changed plans and a quick expedient to connect to the IND Fulton Line was completed in six years.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by randyo* on Fri Jun 8 19:47:38 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Jun 8 18:04:37 2018.* If the MTA were able to reactivate the line for rapid transit operation it would be one nice ride.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by randyo* on Fri Jun 8 19:53:18 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by northshore on Fri Jun 8 19:09:28 2018.* Actually, the IND plans always called for the Fulton St subway to be connected to the reclaimed LIRR ROW although originally via a connection from an extended Pitkin Ave subway that would have passed through (dare I say It?) 76 St as well as from Whitepot Jct. By 1950, the only change made was that the subway was no longer going to be extended any farther down Pitkin and the connection to the LIRR ROW would now be made by a connection to the soon to be reclaimed Fulton St el structure which eventually became Liberty Jct. The Whitepot Jct connection, however, was still in the works.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by Jackson Park B Train* on Fri Jun 8 20:37:31 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by randyo on Fri Jun 8 19:47:38 2018.* I would caution that the inability of the TA to run the G(G) onto QB really means there isn't capacity for another headway slot available. Diverting one of the QB locals wouldcover the route,but that would also be a very long line which always means any hiccup becomes major delay.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by TUNNELRAT* on Fri Jun 8 20:47:57 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Jun 8 15:42:01 2018.* 1947=the lirr proposed a line running into idlewild[now kennedy] from the rockaway line at a cost of 11 million dollars.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by X-Astorian* on Fri Jun 8 22:38:20 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Jun 8 16:12:38 2018.* And thank you for all these almanac postings.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by italianstallion* on Sat Jun 9 10:04:41 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by randyo on Fri Jun 8 17:25:05 2018.* Yes and no. If, say, you normally took a 4 at Woodlawn at 8:04, you could benefit tremendously by advancing your arrival at the station by 4 minutes to get an express at 8:00. Or, if you normally took a 7:56, you could dawdle and get the 8:00 and still arrive a bit earlier.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by Elkeeper* on Sat Jun 9 14:34:11 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri Jun 8 20:47:57 2018.* I wonder why the City did not build a subway connection to the airport, when it was rebuilding the Rockaway Line, back in the 1950's?
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by Stephen Bauman* on Sat Jun 9 14:54:56 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Jun 9 14:34:11 2018.* why the City did not build a subway connection to the airport, The Port Authority makes money off the parking lot concession.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by randyo* on Sat Jun 9 15:25:54 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Jun 8 20:37:31 2018.* More than likely the logical service to run to the Rockaways should this happen would be the M but that would then require it to be a full time 24/7 service. The problem as I se it is that when both the Roosevelt Av and Whitepot Jct connections were designed, they were designed to branch only from the lcl tks rather than as flying junctions like Van Wyck was built which would have allowed both lcl and exp services to access them.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by randyo* on Sat Jun 9 15:44:55 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by italianstallion on Sat Jun 9 10:04:41 2018.* That may be true if everything you did was done with lock step precision, but many of the passengers would arrive to the express stations by connecting buses which are affected by many factors so for a passenger reaching the platform just as the doors on a thru express were closing, waiting for the next thru wouldn’t be of any help.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by TUNNELRAT* on Sat Jun 9 17:20:52 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Jun 9 14:34:11 2018.* $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by Elkeeper* on Sat Jun 9 21:18:57 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Jun 9 14:54:56 2018.* I am talking about the mid-1950's, before the Port Authority got involved.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by Stephen Bauman* on Sat Jun 9 21:21:41 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sat Jun 9 14:54:56 2018.* The Port Authority had control over NYC airports since 1948.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by Fisk Ave Jim* on Sat Jun 9 23:00:10 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by randyo on Fri Jun 8 19:53:18 2018.* If they went thru with the planned connection of the Fulton St Subway from the Pitkin Ave link (thru 76th St) to the LIRR Rockaway branch instead of from Liberty Ave, were there plans to tear down the remaining Fulton St El section that went to Lefferts Blvd since there would not be a connection beyond Grant Ave?
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by randyo* on Sun Jun 10 17:57:50 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Jun 9 23:00:10 2018.* Doubtful, since the photo of the Euclid model board in the 1948 B of T annual report clearly shows both the Pitkin Ave subway going to and past 76 St and the Grant Ave station with the tracks clearly marked “To Lefferts Ave” (the terminal of the Fulton St el was still referred to as Lefferts Ave even though some of the people I know who lived in the neighborhood told me it was changed to Blvd long before that). I have seen contract drawings of the connection from the IND to the Liberty Av structure and the track diagram shows that after the 80/Hudson St interlocking, existing BMT signaling was to be used beyond the point. That is further evidence that as originally planned, the IND was supposed to connect to the LIRR ROW from an extended Pitkin Av subway in the area of Aqueduct station. As I mentioned in another post by 1950, only 2 years later, plans were changed to connect the IND to the LIRR ROW from the Liberty Av el structure at what is now Liberty Jct and plans for further extension of the Pitkin Av subway were dropped.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by Fisk Ave Jim* on Sun Jun 10 23:06:31 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by randyo on Sun Jun 10 17:57:50 2018.* So the original plan was to have both the Fulton St subway hook up to the Liberty Ave Elevated line beyond Grant Ave in addition to a Pitkin Ave subway extention, beyond 76th, st to hook up to the LIRR Rockaway Line?
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by randyo* on Mon Jun 11 01:32:12 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Jun 10 23:06:31 2018.* Yes.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by Fisk Ave Jim* on Mon Jun 11 13:59:38 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by randyo on Mon Jun 11 01:32:12 2018.* Thanks! Never knew that.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by Lou From Middletown NY* on Mon Jun 11 18:08:43 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Jun 11 13:59:38 2018.* Would be interesting as to the service pattern with that set up - Locals to Lefferts, and all As to Rockaway? Or like today, split A service?
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by K. Trout* on Mon Jun 11 20:59:30 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Mon Jun 11 18:08:43 2018.* The 1948 plan was the one that had the SAS connecting to Fulton at Court St, and the Fulton extended to Cambria Heights at 229/Linden (which now that I'm looking at it is nearly the city line), which opens up some interesting variations. A to Far Rock, AA to Cambria Heights, 2 Av to Euclid/Lefferts?
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by Lou From Middletown NY* on Tue Jun 12 09:17:20 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by K. Trout on Mon Jun 11 20:59:30 2018.* Wn considering how extensive the Second System was planned to be, one wonders how much an expense the additional rolling stock would be, if they would have needed a new yard/shop would be needed, etc.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by Elkeeper* on Tue Jun 12 13:51:14 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by randyo on Sun Jun 10 17:57:50 2018.* The high water table under Pitkin Ave, east of Euclid was the main reason why there was no tunnel built to connect to the Rockaways. A similar situation existed under the proposed Utica Ave tunnel, south of Kings Highway. Despite the, then, outcry over losing homes and buildings, the present portal from Grant Ave was deemed less expensive than a Pitkin tunnel.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by TUNNELRAT* on Tue Jun 12 14:11:59 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 12 13:51:14 2018.* THE EL CONNECTION WAS ALWAYS IN THE PLANS,WW2 STOPPED ALL IND CONSTRUCTION IN MAY OF 1942.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by randyo* on Tue Jun 12 15:07:54 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Mon Jun 11 18:08:43 2018.* I suspect the the lcls which would probably have been HHs from Court St (that is until the stub terminal at Court was connected to something) would go to Lefferts effectively replacing the route of the demolished Fulton St El between downtown Bkln and Lefferts. There might possibly have been an additional 8 Av exp service at least during rush hours the way the E did for many years or possibly even the D which at the time terminated at Hudson Terminal and could have been extended to the Rockaways leaving the E to terminate at Hudson Term 24/7.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by randyo* on Tue Jun 12 15:24:36 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by TUNNELRAT on Tue Jun 12 14:11:59 2018.* Thanks for that. I’ve been trying to tell people that for years and it still hasn’t sunk in. About the only cost saving measure was creating Liberty Jct off the Liberty Av el structure instead of continuing the subway down Pitkin and connecting to the LIRR ROW near Aqueduct.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by randyo* on Tue Jun 12 15:28:03 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 12 13:51:14 2018.* The Utica Subway, if built was supposed to emerge as an El Structure around Ave M and continue as an el structure (probably 9 St style) to Ave S where it would have turned west towards Nostrand Ave where it was to join with a similar extension of the IRT Nostrand Line to Emmons Ave.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by Fisk Ave Jim* on Tue Jun 12 15:37:30 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by randyo on Tue Jun 12 15:24:36 2018.* I knew that WWII stopped all IND construction. That fact is contained in many publications. What I didn't know is that both extentions, the Pitkin Ave subway extention to the LIRR Rockaway line AND the Liberty Ave. elevated connection beyond Grant Ave were in the original plans.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by Elkeeper* on Tue Jun 12 15:43:41 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by TUNNELRAT on Tue Jun 12 14:11:59 2018.* True, but the original proposed connector route was different than the one in use now. Right, Uncle Steve?
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by Elkeeper* on Tue Jun 12 15:57:24 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Tue Jun 12 09:17:20 2018.* The R-11's were the prototype for the Second Ave subway. When built, they cost about $121,373 each (source- Evolution of the NYC Subways, by Gene Sansone- page 296). So, multiply that price by, say, 300 cars?
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by Elkeeper* on Tue Jun 12 21:01:02 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Jun 12 15:37:30 2018.* The original connector proposal had the subway trains turning into the old Grant Ave station. That would have meant that the structures just east and west of Grant would have to have been rebuilt, along with the station, itself. The current portal and tracks bypassed the elevated Grant Ave structures and connected into the Dual Contracts extension, above Liberty Ave. Since the current connector crosses several blocks diagonally, more buildings had to be condemned. As you might have expected, this new route met with a lot of opposition, at the time.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by Fisk Ave Jim* on Tue Jun 12 22:02:18 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 12 21:01:02 2018.* "That would have meant that the structures just east and west of Grant would have to have been rebuilt, along with the station, itself." Wasn't the Fulton St El east of Broadway Jct rebuilt to dual contract standards??
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by Edwards!* on Tue Jun 12 22:23:11 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Jun 12 22:02:18 2018.* Yes but only as far as Hinsdale,I believe. If the structure was reinforced althe way to Liberty and 80th...then perhaps the Fulton subway would have a connection at ENY/ATLANTIC AVE instead of the city line.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by Edwards!* on Tue Jun 12 22:23:11 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Jun 12 22:02:18 2018.* Yes but only as far as Hinsdale,I believe. If the structure was reinforced althe way to Liberty and 80th...then perhaps the Fulton subway would have a connection at ENY/ATLANTIC AVE instead of the city line.
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8
Posted by Fisk Ave Jim* on Tue Jun 12 22:52:50 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by Edwards! on Tue Jun 12 22:23:11 2018.* "...then perhaps the Fulton subway would have a connection at ENY/ATLANTIC AVE instead of the city line." That would have made more sense & saved a ton of $$$
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SAS Connecting to Fulton Line
Posted by Wallyhorse* on Wed Jun 13 07:04:20 2018, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by K. Trout on Mon Jun 11 20:59:30 2018.* Which is interesting because if the SAS does get to Hanover Square, I'd be looking to have such an SAS continue to the Fulton line that would connect at Court Street.
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Re: SAS Connecting to Fulton Line
Posted by Snarf368* on Wed Jun 13 07:23:24 2018, in response to SAS Connecting to Fulton Line, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Jun 13 07:04:20 2018.* SAS to 125th won’t even happen in our lifetime so no need to fantasize about what happens if it goes to Hanover Sq
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for June 8 PHOTOS
Posted by Avid Reader* on Wed Jun 13 11:08:22 2018, in response to Tuscarora Almanac for June 8, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Jun 8 07:35:57 2018.* Oh how the mighty have fallen! Photo of Lehigh Valley Transit Company Liberty Bell Limited 1030 Some mixed type cars.
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Re: SAS Connecting to Fulton Line
Posted by Spider-Pig* on Wed Jun 13 11:16:27 2018, in response to Re: SAS Connecting to Fulton Line, posted by Snarf368 on Wed Jun 13 07:23:24 2018.* I'm sure you said that before about SAS to 96th Street, but I don't know how old you are.
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