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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by K. Trout on Wed Jan 31 22:48:00 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by SLRT on Wed Jan 31 14:12:42 2018. There's a southbound exit to Woodruff, is that what you're thinking of? |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by K. Trout on Wed Jan 31 23:15:29 2018, in response to List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by Union Tpke on Mon Jan 29 16:48:39 2018. 21 St (Crosstown) has an entire abandoned mezzanine and IINM Broadway does as well. |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Jan 31 23:50:49 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by K. Trout on Wed Jan 31 23:15:29 2018. It looks as though the station has an island platform. Why would it need a mezzanine at all? |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by K. Trout on Thu Feb 1 02:09:23 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Jan 31 23:50:49 2018. The IND philosophy, of course: why only build a 30-foot-long fare control area when you have room for 600? |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Feb 1 07:13:08 2018, in response to List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by Union Tpke on Mon Jan 29 16:48:39 2018. I'd add Park Place on the 2/3 (A Division). At the Broadway entrance, there's a blocked-off, dark passageway. From the location, I guess that's also into the Woolworth Building, but until I read your list above and saw that that BMT-City Hall has a connection to the Woolworth Building, I never realized what building the IRT passage must've connected to.Also, just yesterday, I was wondering why City Hall has no access to/from the west side of Broadway. Now I know that it once did... |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Feb 1 12:34:16 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by K. Trout on Wed Jan 31 22:48:00 2018. I see it now on Google Street View. I thought it was at least closed for a while. |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 1 16:49:50 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Jan 31 23:50:49 2018. There are a number of IND island platform stations that have full mezzanines. |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Feb 1 16:55:26 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by randyo on Thu Feb 1 16:49:50 2018. Not to mention those three grandiose full mezzanines (two of them very deep) over island platforms just built on 2nd Ave. |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Feb 1 16:57:14 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by K. Trout on Wed Jan 31 23:15:29 2018. The mezzanine at Bway has a lot to do with the unused S 4 St station complex. Speaking of S 4 St, although the station shell is under S 4 St, since it runs lengthwise under that street and the line connected to it would also have run under that street why would anyone think that S 4 St would be the name of the station? It would make mores sense to call the station Union Ave since that is the thoroughfare that the line crosses. |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Feb 1 18:36:58 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Feb 1 07:13:08 2018. How did the Woolworth Building have a connection to the BMT City Hall station since that station is an center island platform station, and the street stairways go direct to that center island platform?Simply wondering. Mike |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Thu Feb 1 20:57:46 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by AlM on Thu Feb 1 16:55:26 2018. I forgot about those new ones. I suspect they have more to do with the depth of the stations than the platform layout. The elevators, for example, don't go directly from the street to the platform if I recall correctly, nor do the escalators. |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Feb 1 21:29:52 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by Michael549 on Thu Feb 1 18:36:58 2018. I was wondering the same thing. But it does seem to have existed...note the documentation included with the OP's WikipediaI suppose there may have been another stair at the south end of the station, with some passageway to the Woolworth...? |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by Seabeach53 on Thu Feb 1 22:58:48 2018, in response to List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by Union Tpke on Mon Jan 29 16:48:39 2018. I see Nassau street canal listed. I assume this is the closed off center street entrance...but I seem to remember using it up until the early 90s, not the circa 80s referenced. Are we thinking of the same exit. The actual entrance is now cemented over. |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by Seabeach53 on Thu Feb 1 22:59:26 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by Seabeach53 on Thu Feb 1 22:58:48 2018. I meant Nassau canal street. |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 2 00:41:05 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by Andrew Saucci on Thu Feb 1 20:57:46 2018. They are high budget solutions. There could have been lower budget solutions as well, but they weren't chosen.72nd and 86th are deep, with huge mezzanines. 96th is shallow, with a huge mezzanine. And you are correct, nothing goes straight from the platform to the street. |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Feb 2 00:48:18 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Feb 1 21:29:52 2018. I can’t see how there could have been a passageway to the west side of Bway since the platform is right below street level. |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 2 01:09:35 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by randyo on Fri Feb 2 00:48:18 2018. There's always the possibility of down, across, and up.Bowling Green, for example, has an exit straight up, and also the down, across, and up option. Not claiming this was the case at City Hall, just mentioning that it is sometimes done. |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri Feb 2 01:29:01 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Feb 1 21:29:52 2018. Again, I'm not putting you or anyone on the spot, but here's the problem.The BMT City Hall was to be the terminal for the local trains from Queens or Upper Manhattan for the BMT Manhattan trunk line when the station was under construction. The LOWER LEVEL of the City Hall station contained the express trains that were to continue further south in Manhattan, except the quicker available route over the Manhattan Bridge changed the plans. Currently the lower level has a set of layup tracks (those not quite abandoned express tracks) and partially finished platforms from those early days. There used to be a very notice-able blocked-off stairway to that lower level on the main platform level. I will look over the original poster's list, and Wikipedia page. Just still wondering. Mike |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri Feb 2 01:34:43 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 2 01:09:35 2018. "Bowling Green, for example, has an exit straight up, and also the down, across, and up option."Except in the case of Bowling Green the lower level mezzanine and separate uptown platfrom was ADDED during the mid-1970's renovation of the entire station. These items were not in the original plans of the station. The original Times Square station (now the Times Square Shuttle platform) had direct entrances to local buildings. The original Astor Place local station also had (and still has) direct entrances to a department store, as well as an under-platform passageway between the local platforms - closed in the late 1970's with the renovation of the station. Mike |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri Feb 2 02:03:00 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 2 01:09:35 2018. Not to beat a dead horse about this, but ...On the Wikipedia page for the BMT City Hall station in the reference section is a PDF file at item #7, which shows the downtown Manhattan City Hall and World Trade Center area. The map shows the Woolworth Building to be south of the area outlined as the platforms for the BMT City Hall station. Now of course that map is not to scale, and a better map is needed. And as the Wikipedia page for the City Hall station notes that there has been renovation work done on the City Hall station. This is one of those times when I'd love to have a detailed Bromley or Sanborn map of that location. Mike |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri Feb 2 06:43:25 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by Michael549 on Fri Feb 2 02:03:00 2018. Again not beating a dead horse about this ...Here is the evidence the original poster cited for the BMT City Hall entry. The are two citations for evidence of a passageway to the Woolworth Building. First the poster cites a "State of New York Supreme Court Appellate Division-Second Judicial Department" case where a witness Ella Cunningham from New Jersey is questioned by a lawyer called Mr. Scully - the case is a slip and fall case. The Witness says that each day they would exit the subway in the mornings - sometimes two or three times in a week . . . There is an exit to to the street from the BMT at City Hall up to Warren or Murray. These two could be used, or through the Woolworth Building." "Q. Where did you usually come up out of the BMT subway? A. I usually came up sometimes on the street way and sometimes through there, if I had to stop at the brokerage office, through the Woolworth Building." Basically this person refers to a passageway direct to lobby of the Woolworth Building that she used frequently, but she also says that she used the IRT's Park Place station that also had a passageway direct to the Woolworth Building. ---- The second reference cited for the existence of a passageway is NYC Transit Riders Council report from November 2001 called, "Reopening Closed Subway Entrances Using High Entry/Exit Turnstyles." Basically the report calls for the restoration of a number of un-manned subway entrances and stairways that could be re-opened by placing "High Entrance Exit Turnstiles (HEETs) that use MetroCards in a number of places. Plenty of stations are noted within this report, and the report seems to be well researched. However I can find only one mention of the City Hall station where they want a HEET at "South end of platform at Woolworth Building." ---- That's the information cited by the original poster for the existence of an entrance or passageway connecting the Woolworth Building to the BMT City Hall station. A witness statement in a slip and fall case, and a report to restore some subway entrances with HEETs. No maps, no photos, no Bromley or Sanborn maps, or notations of just where along the station that such an entrance was located, etc. I do not doubt that there may have been a passageway between the Woolworth Building and the IRT Park Place station, the two are right next to each other. Some time ago a poster here provided photos of an entrance to the subway from the Woolworth Building - if my memory is correct. What do I want? I guess I want more information about the existence of such a passageway. And so far the "evidence cited" is not adding up. Am I up to two dead horses or three? Mike |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 2 07:03:06 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by randyo on Fri Feb 2 00:48:18 2018. Yeah...that makes sense. I also read Micahel549's post below. The case for it does seem a bit weak. But I'm not willing to rule it completely out- there are all kinds of hidden passageways... think of all the tunneling work that was done to connect Chambers (J/Z) to the Brooklyn Bridge- and most which probably still exists. On the other hand, I walked around that area just on Wednesday night, and I can easily see where all the Chambers Street work would fit. Woolworth access to City Hall? That does look tough.I'm going to guess that access to City Hall was placed exclusively on the east side of Broadway for 2 reasons- 1) That's where City Hall actually is 2) Because City Hall and the Tweed Courthouse are set well back from Broadway, there was room to work. 2A) Because building foundations on the west side are much closer, working around them would've been slower and more costly. |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 2 07:08:42 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by AlM on Thu Feb 1 16:55:26 2018. Agreed. Those are grandly ridiculous. 72nd and 86th should've been built like 8th and Prince. Dig them 10 feet (give or take) below the surface, put in an ADA elevator on each side and you're done.There is at least a plausible, though not absolutely convincing case for 96th to be a little more elaborate than 86th and 72nd- being at least a temporary terminal (and a good chance of being the permanent, or at least 50-year terminal), it would need crew quarters, equipment storage, etc. |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Feb 2 07:09:24 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by Michael549 on Fri Feb 2 06:43:25 2018. Am I up to two dead horses or three? Mike: With all this talk of dead horses are you sure that your not referring to Aqueduct Race Track station? Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Feb 2 07:11:50 2018, in response to List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by Union Tpke on Mon Jan 29 16:48:39 2018. Union: Did anyone mention the entrance that used to be in the long passageway between 8th Avenue and Times Square under 41st Street? There was once a token booth located about the midway point. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Posted by Bzuck on Fri Feb 2 07:50:44 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Feb 2 07:11:50 2018. I remember bee that! |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 2 07:51:10 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by Michael549 on Fri Feb 2 01:29:01 2018. As of Tuesday, Jan 30, at about 17:50 hours, that stairway still existed- very noticeably :) I was even able to peer down it to the lower level. |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri Feb 2 08:10:49 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Feb 2 07:09:24 2018. I really hope my geography is not that bad.However a few days ago I had trouble finding a building on Maiden Lane. There were no fair maidens on that lane either! Ha! Ha! In any case, I currently use the BMT City Hall station daily, out of all of the stations mentioned that piqued my interest. Mike |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by LA Scott on Fri Feb 2 09:14:39 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 2 00:41:05 2018. Rehashing old arguments, but putting shallow stations means shallow tunneling, which means complex and disruptive utility relocations happens over several times as many blocks for the project.There are convincing arguments for each, but the standard in almost project every around the world seems to be bored tunnels. |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 2 10:01:39 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by LA Scott on Fri Feb 2 09:14:39 2018. Even with deep stations, there are lower budget and higher budget ways to build them. 72 and 86 could have been built deep without their huge mezzanines. |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Feb 2 10:03:42 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by Michael549 on Fri Feb 2 08:10:49 2018. However a few days ago I had trouble finding a building on Maiden Lane. There were no fair maidens on that lane either! Ha! Ha! I believe that back in the Dutch days the young maidens would come down the lane to wash the clothes in the river, hence the name. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Feb 2 14:02:34 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by Michael549 on Fri Feb 2 01:34:43 2018. Do you know which local buildings the entrance led to and at which exact locations they were at? Thanks. |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Feb 2 14:05:28 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Feb 2 07:11:50 2018. No. Thank you. Do you know what side of 41st it was on? |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Feb 2 15:03:14 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by Union Tpke on Fri Feb 2 14:02:34 2018. As for the Astor Pl station, the local building that the entrance led to was the John Wanamaker and Sons dept store is now a K Mart. |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Feb 2 15:13:10 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Feb 2 07:51:10 2018. That stairway is used for employees to access the layup trains on the lower level. As for the plans being changed for access to the Manny B, that was supposed to be temporary to provide a quicker access for trains from Bkln to access Manhattan since the bridge tracks were ready before the tunnel was completed. As is the case with many “temporary” connections, this one became permanent and the upper level of City Hall station was ramped down at the S/E of the station to meet the up ramp which still exists coming from the lower level. |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Feb 2 15:37:39 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by Union Tpke on Fri Feb 2 14:05:28 2018. Union: It was on the south side of the street. But most of the time that I saw it was from the subway level. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Feb 2 16:25:21 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Feb 2 15:37:39 2018. Thanks. |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Fri Feb 2 16:27:39 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Feb 2 15:37:39 2018. Did it close once the free transfer was introduced in 1988? Also, what did the signs at the entrance show? 42/PABT or Times Square? |
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Posted by qveensboro_plaza on Fri Feb 2 17:17:15 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by randyo on Fri Feb 2 15:03:14 2018. There is also a sealed entrance from the downtown platform at Astor place to "Clinton Hall," which was the former Mercantile Library. |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Feb 2 17:40:26 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by Union Tpke on Fri Feb 2 16:27:39 2018. Did it close once the free transfer was introduced in 1988? Union: I honestly don't know when it closed but I would guess sometime in the 90's. The next time that I go to Manhattan I will take a wlk along West 41st Street. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 2 17:48:39 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by Union Tpke on Fri Feb 2 16:27:39 2018. It was inside fare control even when there was no free transfer (the outside of fare control area that separated the two stations was on the 8 Ave mezzanine).So there need not have been a link between closing the entrance and introducing the free transfer. |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Feb 2 17:49:41 2018, in response to List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by Union Tpke on Mon Jan 29 16:48:39 2018. Union: There used to be a door leading to the Knickerbocker Hotel. It was located on the Track One platform of the 42nd Street Shuttle at Times Square. I do not know if it is still visible. There was a doorway on Anderson Avenue in The Bronx which opened onto a stairway leading down to the Jerome-Anderson Avenue station of the 9th Avenue El. It may still be there. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Feb 2 18:02:25 2018, in response to List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by Union Tpke on Mon Jan 29 16:48:39 2018. Union: The original mezzanine for the Willets Point station is still intact. When it was built it was located on Roosevelt Avenue as it is today. However the station house was located at Willets Point Boulevard. The platforms were moved further west in preparation for the 1939 World's Fair. The stairways leading to the old mezzanine were removed but the mezzanine is still there. (or at least it was two years ago) Park Place station (IRT) - at one time the remains of an elevator that provided access to the 9th Avenue El was visible from the west mezzanine of the Park Place station. I don't know if this is still visible. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Feb 2 18:05:29 2018, in response to List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by Union Tpke on Mon Jan 29 16:48:39 2018. Union: e-mail me. I have some information that might be of use for this project. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Feb 2 18:11:44 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 2 17:48:39 2018. It was inside fare control even when there was no free transfer (the outside of fare control area that separated the two stations was on the 8 Ave mezzanine). IIRC the turnstiles extended across the passageway. You could walk west towards the PABT and did not pay a fare until you went down to the 8th Avenue subway platforms. If you walked east you paid a fare but then had access to the IRT-BMT Times Square complex. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Feb 2 18:19:44 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Feb 2 15:37:39 2018. I wonder if there are any traces visible on the 41st Street sidewalk. |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 2 19:26:14 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Feb 2 18:11:44 2018. Exactly. The entrance to the IRT/BMT fare control area was on the east side of the 8 Ave mezzanine under 41st street. |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Fri Feb 2 20:05:04 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by Peter Rosa on Fri Feb 2 18:19:44 2018. I would like to know that as well. I'll let you know what I find out. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri Feb 2 22:31:55 2018, in response to Re: List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Feb 1 07:13:08 2018. The connection wasn't directly into the building as far as I can tell. It just led to another staircase to the street which was part of the building. The staircase still exists, last time I saw months ago. |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri Feb 2 22:54:59 2018, in response to List of closed New York City Subway entrances, posted by Union Tpke on Mon Jan 29 16:48:39 2018. Some notables:Delancey St - there were at least 4 entrances along the east side of Essex that were closed: Rivington St (where you can clearly see the stairway), Essex St (which went to the BMT platform, may have been more than one stairway), Broome St, and Grand St. Except for the one(s) at Essex there are sidewalk panels marking the entrances. Fulton St - The entrance at the southwest corner of Fulton and Bway contains a closed-off entrance into 195 Bway. It looks like it was closed off many years ago. 34th St-6th Ave - There was an entrance from the Gimbels dept store there, which was completely redone after Gimbels went out of business. It used to be a simple double-door entrance. There were no such entrances for Macy's (definitely) or Korvette's (not 100% sure). 42nd Street-Times Square - it looks like there used to be an entrance mid-block between 6th and 7th Aves on 42nd Street. How can you tell? There is a red entrance globe rusting away there, but no sign of an entrance! |
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