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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Mon Jun 29 12:01:43 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 29 10:56:15 2015. Maybe I have confused you, and I apologize for that.I'm not in favor of the following ideas: a) I'm not in favor of extending the weekend M-train to 145th Street. b) I'm not in favor of making the weekend D-train local on Central Park West, or on Sixth Avenue. I've explained why in a lengthy message. c) I'm not in favor of extending the weekend M-train to West 4th Street, and the re-routing mess that would snare the D & F routes. d) I'm not in favor of many of Wallyhorse's re-routing schemes and ideas. e) to w) - Here I will repeat the points that I've already made in previous messages! x) I support the idea that the weekend M-train should travel to either Essex/Delancey Street or to Chambers Street -- both of those places provide transfers to other lines for further trips. y) In many ways Wallyhorse is predictable with his "solutions to perceived problems". Understanding his thinking is my way of disproving his points. z) I agree that I can be long-winded in making an argument. I agree that simple, consistent routings are best for public use. I am not ignoring the whole thrust of this message stream. Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jun 29 12:05:44 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Mon Jun 29 12:01:43 2015. But you carefully avoid expressing an opinion on extending the M to Queens Plaza. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Mon Jun 29 12:45:12 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by AlM on Mon Jun 29 12:05:44 2015. From a previous message:"But you carefully avoid expressing an opinion on extending the M to Queens Plaza." Fine. Okay. I do not see a reason on the weekends for extending the weekend M-train to Queens Plaza. I simply do not believe that the weekend ridership numbers support such an operation. I realize that there are some folks that want to create as much as possible a blanket set of routes that operate the majority of the time/day/weekday/weekend. However the ridership numbers do not always support such hopes - that means in some situations folks have to transfer from one route to another to continue their journey. For example, on the weekends the #5 does not run to/from Brooklyn, or the B-train does not run on the weekends, or the M-train is not its usual full-length route. Outside of rush hours and on weekends also, riders to/from Rockaway Park have to change at Broad Channel. On the weekends, the #6, #7 and the D-train do not have peak-direction express runs. Generally on the weekends and very late nights the ridership situation is different, and the transit offerings reflect that. One-seat rides everywhere is not the goal, nor should it be. Mike |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jun 29 13:13:39 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Mon Jun 29 12:45:12 2015. Running the M to QP makes a lot of 3-seat rides into 2-seat. It allows the M to connect with the 6, D, L, N, Q, R, 7, and E, which terminating it at Essex doesn't allow.Do you think that when the F ran from 6th Ave to 53rd street it was totally empty on weekends between 50th street and 5th Ave? |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jun 29 13:22:04 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by AlM on Mon Jun 29 13:13:39 2015. Good point! I wonder how many more trains the "M" would need to run it from Queens Plaza, instead of Essex or Chambers? |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Mon Jun 29 14:08:29 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by AlM on Mon Jun 29 13:13:39 2015. I do not see a reason on the weekends for extending the weekend M-train to Queens Plaza. I simply do not believe that the weekend ridership numbers support such an operation.I've already said that I'd prefer having the weekend M-train end at Chambers Street allowing riders to directly transfer to the #6, the N, Q and R trains at Canal Street, and the #4, #5 and #6 at the Chambers Street/Brooklyn Bridge station. I've even said that I'd bring back the "brown M-train" for the weekends. The numbers of folks from Fresh Pond Road traveling to Grand Avenue each and every weekend is a rather small amount of folks, compared to the huge numbers of folks just traveling from Queens to Manhattan generally. Does this mean that riders bound for Queens Blvd along 53rd Street might have to transfer? Does this mean that riders along Sixth Avenue bound for Queens Blvd local stations might have to transfer? Yeah! This is the nature of public transit! Folks often have to transfer between trains! Some nostalgia buffs want to return to the days when the GG (which did not travel at all to Manhattan) was the only local train along Queens Blvd 24/7/365, when the TA strongly suggested that riders use the #7 train to Roosevelt Avenue and then use the GG train for by-passed local stations. (For long periods of time, the RR, then EE, then the N-train only operated along Queens Blvd on the weekdays only. Now it is the RR on the weekends.) I'm sorry, I understand the plight of those who have two or three seat rides. I do so - daily - Staten Island bus - Staten Island Ferry and the subway! At least the weekend and late-night hourly ferries are GONE! And that was regardless of the ridership numbers! It took a very long time to do so! The F-train HAS the ridership numbers, has a stable understandable route, and allows transfers to a variety of lines. Some buffs even want to go back to the days when the F-train operated on 53rd Street full-time - as the natural order of things - with huge amounts of pining, whining and crying! The hate for the V-train did not stop for years, but now it seems folks are in LOVE with the M-train! The moaning and the groaning never ends! (LOL!) Not everybody gets a one-seat ride! That's life! Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Mon Jun 29 14:59:45 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 29 10:56:15 2015. It would be cheaper to do nothing and let the (C) service CPW by itself. The (1), (2), and (3) are nearby. It may hurt existing weekend (D) ridership to make it run local. |
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Re: A Way to Run the M to Midtown on Weekends |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 29 21:24:49 2015, in response to Re: A Way to Run the M to Midtown on Weekends, posted by ClearAspect on Mon Jun 29 11:20:54 2015. Are you making a joke? |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 29 22:01:16 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Mon Jun 29 14:08:29 2015. Right, not everyone gets a one seat ride. But a three seat ride? The subway exists to provide mobility to the population, sometimes even if the ridership numbers on the surface don't justify it. In the case of the M train on weekends, there are a lot of potential benefits to riders throughout the subway if it runs in Manhattan as it does on weekdays. |
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Re: A Way to Run the M to Midtown on Weekends |
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Posted by ClearAspect on Mon Jun 29 22:34:01 2015, in response to Re: A Way to Run the M to Midtown on Weekends, posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 29 21:24:49 2015. No, they are adding new signals on 6th Avenue as apart of making the F Line CBTC. Because of the amount of weekend GOs for the next few years it makes adding M service up to 57 Street undoable. The only time the M will be extended will be when the L does not run. Other than that the M will be shortlined to Essex until the F is fully CBTC. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Mon Jun 29 23:19:49 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 29 22:01:16 2015. Look at this issue another way for a moment.FUNDS ARE NOT UN-LIMITED! I admit that I do not KNOW just how much it costs to run a train line, but we can easily surmise that train operators, rail-road clerks, conductors, dispatch personnel, train yard personnel and maintenance folks are needed. Admittedly some operations or staffed positions will be "baseline" in that the position or activity will need to be staffed 24/7/365 - railroad clerks, train operators and conductors needed for each train, a certain number of dispatchers or office staff, etc. There will have to be a number of persons working "behind the scenes" even on the weekends to make the whole operation run smoothly. At the same time - there are a certain number of positions or activities that depend upon the numbers of riders using the system. When there's more riders - more of these kinds of persons or activities are needed. When there's less riders fewer of these kinds of persons or activities are needed. Pure basic financial analysis type stuff to figure out - and I'm sure that the MTA has that kind of stuff figured out. My bottom line point is simple - choices have to be made where to spend the limited dollars that you have available - because money does not grow on trees. There's a certain amount of service expected and beneficial for the good of the many - given the amount of funds available. At a certain point - certain things become "not affordable." Where are you going to spend your limited money? We have 3 lines running on the westside IRT, 3 lines running on the eastside IRT, 3 lines running on the 8th Avenue line, 3 lines running on Queens Blvd, 2 lines running on 6th Ave, 3 lines running on the BMT-Broadway, 3 lines running on the 4th Avenue, 2 lines running on Fulton Street (plus a full-time shuttle), and 3 lines running on Brooklyn IRT. Do each of the Manhattan mainlines have weekend express service - Yes! One Queens mainline and 3 Brooklyn mainlines have weekend express service. Zero weekend express service in the Bronx or on Staten Island. Then are are the basic single routes - #7, the L-train, the G-train, the J-train (with an extended shuttle), 1-line on the Brighton line, the SIR, etc. Unless I've missed something. What you're now proposing is additional service on Sixth Avenue to Queens. It is easy to scream that "you want more." It is not so easy when there are trade-offs and hard decisions to be made. - because there's only so much money. Now if you're going to argue that more riders will result from your increased activity - therefore being able to support more. Just how do you spend your new found money when it is in places like the Bronx on the D-train, or on lines like the #1, #2, and #3 that are getting the steady growths in ridership? Isn't it a good idea to spend more/provide more resources in the places that are generating the added riders? As I've already shown, that while the M-train has been growing in ridership there are other places with much greater substantial amounts of growing ridership on the weekends. Shouldn't those places benefit? Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 29 23:45:43 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Mon Jun 29 23:19:49 2015. The lack of M service on the weekends is one of the biggest disparities between the weekday and weekend services on a given line.Running the D local would solve many issues on the West Side of Manhattan as I've said. You seem to be missing some of the other points in this discussion though. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Tue Jun 30 02:25:10 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 29 23:45:43 2015. I understand every one of the points you have raised.We just simply dis-agree on several points. I have not backed off of the following statements: a) I'm not in favor of extending the weekend M-train to 145th Street. And now I'm adding Queens Plaza, unless the ridership increases in a substantial way. I simply do not believe that the ridership is there for that kind of expansion. b) I'm not in favor of making the weekend D-train local on Central Park West, or on Sixth Avenue. I've explained why in a lengthy message, and at least six separate times. c) I'm not in favor of extending the weekend M-train to West 4th Street, and the re-routing mess that would snare the D & F routes. d) I'm not in favor of many of Wallyhorse's re-routing schemes and ideas. In a very lengthy message I looked at the ridership issues related to this recent set of proposals, and gave my reasons why I object. e) I support the idea that the weekend M-train should travel to either Essex/Delancey Street or better yet to Chambers Street - due to provided transfers to other lines for further trips. f) I agree that I can be long-winded in making an argument. I agree that simple, consistent routings are best for public use. g) I am not ignoring the whole thrust of this message stream. Just being me. Mike |
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Re: M Past Essex on Weekends |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Jun 30 07:02:36 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 29 10:56:15 2015. Actually, the reason I would not want to use Queens Plaza is possible interference with the (E) by terminating there.Ideally, the (M) would go to 71-Continental 19/7, but with weekend G.O.'s making that apparently impossible, the alternative is to have the (M) terminate elsewhere so Broadway-Brooklyn riders at worst have an easier transfer to other lines. Queens Plaza would be the next ideal spot except for the (E) interference as noted. If fumigation were not an issue, then Queens Plaza would make more sense. 57th/6th has worked, but the (F) can be interfered with there. That was why I had brought up 145th since it could terminate there as the (B) does on weekdays. Alternately, West 4th even though that forces the (D) to switch tracks twice and the (M) to switch tracks to terminate can work as that would provide minimal interference. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Jun 30 07:10:13 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Jun 29 10:58:03 2015. The (G) came in on the local track at Queens Plaza (as the (R) does now) and that was why the (G) can terminate there (then and now), at least when the (R) is not running.The (M) can not do that at Queens Plaza because it has to come in on the express track there, potentially backing up the (E). That was why I noted what I did. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jun 30 12:13:35 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Tue Jun 30 02:25:10 2015. Why is Chambers Street an acceptable destination for the M on weekends but somewhere along 6th Avenue, which is where it goes during the week AND is a more popular destination than the Financial District on weekdays but especially weekends, not acceptable? Your logic makes no sense. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 30 13:36:27 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Tue Jun 30 12:13:35 2015. Because there is nowhere along 6th Ave where the "M" can be safely turned back. And forget about running on the ramp tracks from Houston to the 8th Ave subway. Nowhere to turn back there, either. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Jun 30 13:57:34 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jun 30 13:36:27 2015. W4. As mentioned in the thread title! |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Jun 30 17:40:41 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Tue Jun 30 02:25:10 2015. IOW, you are not in favor of anything.As stated before, extension to W4th and the D stopping at 14 and 23 costs nothing. Chambers St is nothing but a convenient place to change ends, but no other commerical purpose. |
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Re: A Way to Run the M to Midtown on Weekends |
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Posted by milantram on Tue Jun 30 21:58:22 2015, in response to Re: A Way to Run the M to Midtown on Weekends, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sun Jun 14 22:10:02 2015. Why? It's done in San Francisco with inbound K-Ingleside cars becoming T-Third Street cars at West Portal, and outbound T-Third Street cars becoming K-Ingleside cars at Ferry Portal, before reaching Embarcadero Station. No problem. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed Jul 1 00:21:58 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Joe V on Tue Jun 30 17:40:41 2015. From a previous message:"IOW, you are not in favor of anything." In other words, there's plenty that I'm in favor of. I'm in favor of an NYC MTA train stimulation game where one gets to really model ideas and proposals. I'm in favor of an increase in C-train service and an upgrade in the subway cars assigned to the C-train route. There are a other ideas on the subways I'd love to see implemented - but I realize some of the limitations. I'm in favor of the building of the complete Second Avenue subway, and really love to see the creation of the Queens Super-Express routes and the extensions of the J and E trains further into southern eastern Queens. I've always been in favor of an increase in Staten Island Ferry service, and the complete elimination of the hourly ferries which I consider an utter abomination upon all that is holy in transit. I'm in favor of chocolate ice-cream with strawberries and fudge! Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Jul 1 00:27:18 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Wed Jul 1 00:21:58 2015. "I'm in favor of an NYC MTA train stimulation game where one gets to really model ideas and proposals."Actually, there IS one called "Bahn" which requires MSDOS emulation to run these days. It was quite popular. But you could actually put together simulations of any runs you wanted and then sit back and watch your railroad jack up to the hilt. :) http://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/BAHN_Train_Simulator_Layouts |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Jul 1 02:51:36 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by R30A on Tue Jun 30 13:57:34 2015. Exactly:If you can't run it to 71-Continental due to G.O.'s on Weekends and don't want to run it to 145 (where you can turn it on the center track like the (B) does on weekdays on the lower level there), then West 4 is the next best option even if it does mean the (D) has to run local on 6th Avenue (which is really only adding two stops at 14th and 23rd) and has to do two switches to get to and from the local track (northbound after Broadway-Lafayette, southbound just before West 4). It's not like trains are running there every couple of minutes, so the chances of interference are minimal doing it that way. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Jul 1 07:45:33 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Wed Jul 1 00:21:58 2015. You are in favor of costly fantasies, some from the Ronan era,, playing with computer simulations, and capital projects already about to happen, not anything budget neutral that improves service for people. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jul 1 11:12:25 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Joe V on Wed Jul 1 07:45:33 2015. IAWTP |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jul 1 11:13:18 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Jun 30 07:10:13 2015. The G and R shared a track, as the E and M would under the proposed scenario. What's the difference? Your logic makes no sense on this one. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by R30A on Wed Jul 1 11:15:59 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jul 1 11:13:18 2015. The difference is that the G had to cross over the E and F too back then, which made it substantially worse. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed Jul 1 11:54:15 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Joe V on Wed Jul 1 07:45:33 2015. That's rich! I'm rolling in laughter!Truly rich! I'm rolling in laughter! Considering the many proposals that have been floated on this forum over the years! From folks who have created detailed fantasy maps and lists of train routes that they'd like to see. Just recently: - there's folks talking about extending the L-train up the west side; extending the #7 train to New Jersey; - extending the PATH train up the #6 line; creating new subways under Fifth Avenue; under Madison Avenue; - to folks wanting to create a truly circular M-train between Queens, Manhattan & Brooklyn; - to folks wanting to revive various closed rail-lines connecting them some how to the subways; - to the fights every 4-years about getting express service on the F-train McDonald Avenue route; - to the usual moaning and groaning and gripes! Your last message is truly rich! I'm rolling in laughter! Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jul 1 12:27:58 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Wed Jul 1 11:54:15 2015. I don't recall seeing most of those ideas, but some of them, such as the 7 to NJ, were also floated by politicians who sign the checks for such projects. Meanwhile, you're opposed to running the D local on CPW when the B doesn't run or the M up 6th Avenue on weekends, neither of which has capital costs associated with it and minimal to no increase in operating costs in the case of the former idea. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed Jul 1 13:25:09 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jul 1 12:27:58 2015. Yes, you're right!a) The D-train handles on the weekends about 150,000 riders between the Bronx and midtown, with about 120,000 of those riders coming from the D-train's Bronx stations. From the ridership statistics I estimated that between Brooklyn and Manhattan that about 65-80,000 riders is carried by the D-train each weekend. Adding the two figures together that's about 230,000 weekend riders! b) I've shown that the C-train handles 80,000-plus riders on the weekends on Central Park West stations. I've also shown how the C-train from its Brooklyn stations easily carries about 60,000 riders each weekend. I did not attempt to figure out the ridership of the C-train in midtown, but just adding the above two numbers comes to about 140,000 riders handled by the C-train along and between Manhattan & Brooklyn. c) I've already tabulated the ridership of the weekend M-train plus its shared segment with the J-train, in even its best year to date handled 67,000 riders (rounded off). This number is VERY MUCH LESS than the ridership of the C, D and F trains! d) It is plain to see that the F-train carries a substantial weekend ridership very much greater than the Brooklyn/Queens M-train segment. Substantial F-train riders would be affected by the delays in service that switching D-trains into and out of the pathway of F-trains would entail. e) In addition to all of that I've shown how just on the Central Park West area/west side stations alone of the #1, #2 and #3 lines handles 200,000 riders each weekend. ----------- I did the math and I spelled out my reasons clearly. I simply do not see a reason why the route (the M-train) that has VERY MUCH LESS RIDERS should in any way screw up the routes (D & F) that are much more heavily traveled (in terms of much higher ridership), and that travel longer distances, and where the rides themselves take a longer time. The folks traveling the longer distances on the heavily traveled route should not have hampered by additional local stations. You may not like my reasons. You may disagree with me. I have been clear and up-front. We just simply disagree! I'm not in charge of the MTA, they make their own decisions. Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Jul 1 14:33:17 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Wed Jul 1 11:54:15 2015. I don't know what you are talking about. I didn't suggest any of that. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Jul 1 14:34:25 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Wed Jul 1 12:27:58 2015. As I said, cheap do-ables are of no interest to Michael.Just many phoney excuse why they can't be done. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jul 1 14:41:23 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Wed Jul 1 13:25:09 2015. Reality and fantasy can co-exist here, Michael. Just wait until the next 76th Street, Queens thread rears its ugly head again! |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Jul 1 23:52:04 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Joe V on Tue Jun 30 17:40:41 2015. Exactly!!And at the times I would be doing it (late nights, weekends and holidays), it's when the (D) and (F) are running at a minimum 8-10 minute interval for the most part, meaning even with switching tracks north of Broadway-Lafayette (northbound) /north of West 4 (southbound) and again between 34th and 42nd on the (D), there would be minimal interference with other lines if the (M) terminates at West 4 and the (D) stops at 14th and 23rd Street. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Jul 2 11:28:59 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jul 1 14:41:23 2015. Or QueensWay.Or the Brooklyn-X routes. Or the Air-Train to LaGuardia Airport versus extending the N-train. Or extending the Second Avenue subway all of the way across 125th Street. Or extending the L-train up the westside, again. Or connecting the Far Rockaway Tracks to the Queens Blvd line. Or renovating the L-train Atlantic Avenue station with extra platforms for some purpose, again. Or extending the #2 & #5 in Brooklyn to Kings Plaza. Or re-creating the W-train. OR, Or, or . . . Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Jul 2 11:47:00 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Thu Jul 2 11:28:59 2015. Or re-creating the W-train.Well, this one at least has to happen fairly soon. The N can't serve Astoria alone once the Q goes to 96th. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Jul 2 13:09:42 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by AlM on Thu Jul 2 11:47:00 2015. I know.I've said in the past, that I would re-create the W-train and operate it 24/7/365 as the local service to/from Astoria with its terminals being Whitehall Street (full-time), and Coney Island via the Sea Beach line (midnight hours), with additional rush hour service out of Canal Street/City Hall lower level and 9th Avenue stations. That way during the rush hours W-train operate every 5 minutes, the current service level of N & Q trains now. At the same time, I'd have both the N & Q trains operate out of 96th Street & Second Avenue. At 10-minutes between trains, this would have trains running every 5 minutes on Second Avenue. Both the N & Q trains would operate express along Broadway, over the Manhattan Bridge and to/from their respective terminals in Brooklyn. During the midnight hours, the N & R trains would stop running as usual, and the R-train would have its usual midnight shuttle operation. The W-train would be extended to Coney Island via Sea Beach (the N-train route) making all local stops, and allowing the usual transfers. This way on the BMT-Broadway line the pathways of the N & Q trains never have to cross the paths of the R & W trains. The similarity of the N & Q trains would make the terminal opeations at 96th Street easier. Just my ideas. Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Jul 2 13:19:37 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Thu Jul 2 13:09:42 2015. But the N and Q run at 6 minute intervals in Brooklyn in the rush hour. So now you are sending a train every 3 minutes to 96th street. I think your plan needs more trains in total than keeping the N going to Astoria and supplementing it with Ws. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Jul 2 13:40:29 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by AlM on Thu Jul 2 13:19:37 2015. From a previous message:"But the N and Q run at 6 minute intervals in Brooklyn in the rush hour. So now you are sending a train every 3 minutes to 96th street. I think your plan needs more trains in total than keeping the N going to Astoria and supplementing it with Ws." That still would be fine, especially since the Second Avenue subway is supposed to be handling heavy loads of ridership on the east-side of Manhattan. That's funny because the current N-train schedule has N-trains leaving Ditmars Blvd at 5:27am, 5:37a, 5:47am, 5:57am, 6:07am, 6:17am, 6:27am, 6:37am, 6:47am, 6:57am, 7:07am, 7:17am, 7:27am, 7:37am, 7:48am, 7:56am, 8:08am, 8:16am, 8:23am, 8:30am, 8:37am, 8:44am, 8:54am, 9:05am, 9:15am, 9:25am, 9:35am, 9:45am and so on. That's funny because the current Q-train schedule has Q-trains leaving Ditmars Blvd at 6:02am, 6:12am, 6:22am, 6:32am, 6:42am, - Then every 10 minutes until: 8:12am, 8:19am, 8:26am, 8:33am, 8:41am, 8:52am, 9:03am, 9:12am, 9:20am, 9:29am, 9:39am, 9:49am and so on. I'd say that the "seat of the pants" statement that the N & Q trains generally run every 10 minutes still stands. Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Jul 2 14:10:08 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Thu Jul 2 13:40:29 2015. That's the Ditmars end. More N and Q trains leave Brooklyn in the AM rush. Some turn at 57th, which won't be possible any more. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Jul 2 14:51:37 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by AlM on Thu Jul 2 14:10:08 2015. According the current schedules ALL of the Q-trains are headed to Ditmars Blvd in the am-rush hours, and except for about 5 of the N-trains, all of the N-trains are headed to Ditmars Blvd in the am rush hours.In the am-rush hours on the N-train there are trains that end 57th Street-7th Ave at 7:34am, another one at 8:31am, 8:44am, 9:03am, and an interesting N-train that ends at 9:09am on the lower level of the Canal Street station. Otherwise all of the N-trains from Brookklyn go all of the way to Ditmars Blvd, according to the schedule. Yes, these particular trains may be headed to layup areas at the tail-ends of the rush hours. On other lines there are similar operations at the tail-ends of the rush hours. Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Jul 2 14:56:06 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Thu Jul 2 14:51:37 2015. Interesting.The schedule doesn't equal reality. I've seen Qs destined for 57th on various occasions. But I don't know how many do that. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Jul 4 05:30:44 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Wed Jul 1 13:25:09 2015. Were there significant delays from December 1967 through June 1968 due to the D switching back and forth onto the F (local) tracks at 34th St. and W. 4th St. non-rush hours? If so, I've never heard about it. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Jul 4 10:42:16 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Jul 4 05:30:44 2015. I don't think so. But remember, only the "D" was switched from express to local ND and local to express SB. Having the "M" terminate at West 4th St would involve switching both the "D" and the "M". |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sat Jul 4 14:14:06 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Jul 4 05:30:44 2015. I will define "know" by what I've experienced, and by what I've read about.I am a long winded person and often write long passages that some folks plainly may not want to read. Sometimes important points may get lost. Here is the summary of what I know and have experienced. I did not experience the switching of the D and F trains between 34th Street & West 4th Street in 1968. I was in elementary school at the time. After becoming a rail-fan living in NYC, I've experienced: a) The criss-crossing the C/CC trains between the A and E trains at Canal Street in both directions, and the A and C trains at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. I could go into detail, but I'm trying to be brief. b) The criss-crossing of N, Q and R trains in both directions at the Prince Street station. That is no pleasure when one is attempting to catch the ferry. c) The #6 train and it's operations at the Parkchester station. I could really go into detail, but I'm trying to be brief. d) The crossings of trains into and out of the DeKalb Avenue station. What I've read about: I've read about the TA in about the mid-1960's changes to the D, QJ and QB trains at the Brighton Beach station. The criss-crossing QJ and QB local trains ending at the Brighton Beach station, and D-train ending at Coney Island led to traffic tie-ups and delays in service. The TA remedied the problem by having the D express train end at Brighton Beach, and the QB and QJ local trains terminating at Coney Island. This practice with current local Q trains ending at Coney Island, while B express trains end at Brighton Beach. The B and Q trains are straight railed leading to fewer problems. I've read about the IRT at West 96th Street in the mid-1950's where two express routes and two local routes converged requiring the criss-crossing of trains between the local and express tracks in both directions. The TA recognized the delays & traffic tie-ups in train service. The TA decided that all of the express trains would use Lenox Avenue, while all local trains would remain on Broadway, the trains would run straight railed. This eliminated the need for trains to cross paths, and is the current pathway of the #1, #2 and #3 trains today. I've read about and experienced The TA's 2004 decision to route D-trains to the West-End line and to route the B-trains to the Brighton line, and to have both N and D trains skip the DeKalb Avenue station at all times except midnight hours. The TA's basic reason was to eliminate train cross-traffic bottle-necks both into and out of the Pacific Street station, when all 4th Avenue local and express service had to use a single track (in each direction) prior to entering or after leaving the DeKalb Avenue station. On the forums the moaning and groaning was non-stop for several months! And yes, the gripping continues! ------------ The MTA can operate THEIR TRAINS any way they want to - it IS their railroad. What we often debate is whether something SHOULD be done, even when we know that idea is possible. At times we believe that the past should inform the present and the future. We can LEARN from the past. Learning from the past is not the same as "beholden to the past". Currently the D and F trains are straight railed on Sixth Avenue in both directions and do not cross paths. The proposal would have the F-trains remain straight railed, the D-trains crossing into & out of the path of F-trains, and the M-trains crossing into and out of the paths of both D and F-trains. The proponents of the plans say that the criss-crossing of trains in both directions won't delay service, cause traffic tie-ups, etc. and to "trust us" because we have a good idea. I just disagree. I've out-lined my reasons before in this thread of messages. I apologize at being long-winded. Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Jul 4 14:23:45 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Sat Jul 4 14:14:06 2015. The proponents of the plans say that the criss-crossing of trains in both directions won't delay service, cause traffic tie-ups, etc. and to "trust us" because we have a good idea.Crossovers in rush hour are a major pain and seriously reduce capacity. I frequently see what happens northbound in the AM at 34th on the N/Q/R and it is painful to endure. But non-rush hour is a totally different issue. There is no reason you can't stuff 3 separate services each doing 6 tph onto a single track (or have a crossover that involves these) if that meets a useful objective. The main reason not to send the M to 145th on the weekend is the cost of many more M trains, not switching the M from the local track to the express track. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Jul 4 14:28:55 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Sat Jul 4 14:14:06 2015. You keep bringing up these crossover issues even though they are not applicable on weekends, and you keep not paying attention. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Jul 4 14:39:05 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Sat Jul 4 14:14:06 2015. "The TA's 2004 decision to route D-trains to the West-End line and to route the B-trains to the Brighton line, and to have both N and D trains skip the DeKalb Avenue station at all times except midnight hours. The TA's basic reason was to eliminate train cross-traffic bottle-necks both into and out of the Pacific Street station, when all 4th Avenue local and express service had to use a single track (in each direction) prior to entering or after leaving the DeKalb Avenue station"And the R train, whose route is less congested than ever, is STILL a disaster. A lot of good all of that did other than to dumb down operations to tolerate more incompetence from dispatchers and service planners. |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sat Jul 4 15:03:54 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Joe V on Sat Jul 4 14:28:55 2015. From a previous message:"You keep bringing up these crossover issues even though they are not applicable on weekends, and you keep not paying attention." ---------- The criss-crossing of trains occurred on the IRT West-side lines at all hours as reported. It is a fact that the criss-crossing of trains occurred at the DeKalb AVenue station at all hours! That is why the TA changed its operations - even on the weekends! Even in the face of many transit fans who argued for months that "the weekends are different". The criss-crossing of A & C trains still occurs on the weekends! The criss-crossing of N, Q and R trains still occurs on the weekends! I've been in traffic tie-ups on the N, Q & R that meant that I missed a ferry on the weekends! You and others say that somehow "the weekends are different" - except that you've also said that the weekends are NOT different, using expanded ridership as the basis for your ideas on the M-train. The D and F trains are straight railed on Sixth Avenue in both directions and do not cross paths. This basic idea at West 4th Street has not changed! The proposal would have the F-trains remain straight railed, the D-trains crossing into & out of the path of F-trains, and the M-trains crossing into and out of the paths of both D and F-trains. You and some others say that somehow "the weekends are different". That the much, much more plentiful riders on the other lines would not be affected. The expanded ridership on the M-train does not come any where close to the expanded ridership on the other lines. That is a fact. As I said, I disagree! I have produced the ridership numbers, and the historical patterns of change. Then I get accused of "not paying attention." We just plainly dis-agree! I was asked a question - I answered it. We just plainly dis-agree. Mike |
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Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Jul 4 15:22:51 2015, in response to Re: M to West 4th on Weekends/Late Nights, posted by Michael549 on Sat Jul 4 15:03:54 2015. Weekends are different because there is less chance of conflict because trains are less frequent than rush hours.As has been told to you MANY times, ridership is a large function of service provided. We can make the West End Line a TT Shuttle, and it will produce similar results as the M. Since the L train is overloaded because of Ridgewood and Bushwick, the M train could alleviate that if it went somewhere into Manhattan useful. Chambers Street is not useful. |
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