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(1162395)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 18 11:32:47 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by 3-9 on Mon Jun 18 02:11:03 2012.

Not really, the loss of the two rear platforms simply sealed the building off. In the original expansion the two tail tracks stuck out the Park Row side of the building into daylight.

The two northern tracks were cut off and the tracks reconfigured, but the shed was intact.

(1162400)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 18 12:53:23 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by Elkeeper on Sun Jun 17 17:28:12 2012.

I wonder how much of the steel from all the 1941-44 el demolitions ended up in American naval vessels.

(1162401)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 18 12:56:54 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by Elkeeper on Sun Jun 17 17:28:12 2012.

They also downsized Sands St after municipal takeover. The upper level loop was closed, and the structure connecting the Myrtle/Lex to it was removed between Concord St and Sands St over Adams. All trains used the bridge connector at Concord, even if trains were terminating there and not crossing the bridge.

(1162403)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by 3-9 on Mon Jun 18 13:13:31 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 18 11:28:10 2012.

True, the most memorable thing I remember from my first visit to Penn were my first sights of the M1's and a big black GG-1, NOT the station.



(1162405)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by 3-9 on Mon Jun 18 13:15:29 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 18 11:32:47 2012.

Ah, OK, I thought they actually sliced off the 2 northern tracks along with half the shed (a la Queensborough Plaza).

(1162406)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jun 18 13:16:42 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 18 11:28:10 2012.

or the part of Chicago Union Station which was like Penn turned into a rat's maze of low ceilings

(1162408)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jun 18 13:27:03 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 18 12:56:54 2012.

They also downsized Sands St after municipal takeover

Ain't government control grand?

(1162409)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 18 13:31:59 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jun 18 13:27:03 2012.

Actually, today's government would go into debt to maintain the services to appease the former operator's unions.

(1162410)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 18 13:34:40 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 18 11:28:10 2012.

"In the old Penn Station, one entered the city like a god; now one scurries in like a rat." - Vin Scully.

(1162412)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jun 18 13:35:18 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 18 12:53:23 2012.

The great arch of Exchange Place Terminal was also a victim of that.



Found a bonus pic: PRR elevated railroad into Exchange Place in the middle of being demolished. Looks like a four-track NYCTA el except with catenary towers. Now if they had kept it around at least until the Metroliner MU showed up, it might have held on . . .



(1162417)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by 3-9 on Mon Jun 18 13:50:23 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jun 18 13:35:18 2012.

I would like to think so, at least as a commuter terminal, but it would have had to survive 30-40 years of rejection, a lot to expect of any structure. I sincerely doubt Amtrak would have cared either way, as Penn Station has been serving its needs.

I was thinking if it would be useful to build a small commuter rail terminal at Exchange Place or even at least Journal Square, but they aren't even pushing Hoboken, so what's the point...

(1162425)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 18 14:18:10 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by 3-9 on Mon Jun 18 13:50:23 2012.

The old PRR terminal in JC was probably best situated to meet today's demand for NJ-bound commuters. Problem is most of the destinations today were built on top of it (Harborside, etc).

(1162426)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jun 18 14:20:52 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by 3-9 on Mon Jun 18 13:50:23 2012.

Amtrak wasn't around when the Metroliner first came out. The PRR and/or Penn Central could have gotten a sizable chunk of the Wall Street crowd by having the Metroliner operate out of Exchange Place; much closer to Wall Street and a far shorter "subway" ride. (Remember: the railroads rejected these terminals, not the passengers.)

(1162427)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jun 18 14:23:02 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 18 14:18:10 2012.

If it were still around, much of that could have been built over the terminal, since the great arch was gone and the platforms were pretty much open air with minimal shelter. Would have made quite the commuter and Metroliner destination too (and in today's climate, a destination for Acela) . . . of course, today's commuter/railfan crowd would have been a bit baffled by sharing tracks with PATH between Kearny and Journal Square . . .

(1162430)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 18 14:29:32 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 18 13:34:40 2012.

Very apt.

(1162431)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 18 14:31:33 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by 3-9 on Mon Jun 18 13:15:29 2012.

They might have, but it would have been more trouble than it was worth.

QB Plaza remained intact for a pretty long time after the northern half was abandoned. Maybe until mid-60s?

(1162432)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 18 14:32:30 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 18 14:31:33 2012.

Demolition began in 1963, 14 years after the northern half was abandoned.

(1162433)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 18 14:35:54 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 18 12:56:54 2012.

Actually Sands Street was downsized in 1935-36. A new tail track was installed west of Sands Street so trains could be turned. The upper level was closed but not demolished until well after the City took over.

(1162434)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 18 14:39:13 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jun 18 14:20:52 2012.

No one really anticipated the revival of the City that would make demand so much greater. Everything was consolidation and/or abandonment. Waterborne transportation was reduced to just the Staten Island-New York ferry.

(1162452)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by Joe V on Mon Jun 18 17:12:15 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 18 12:53:23 2012.

I though 2nd Av el steal wound up in the hands of the Japan military.

(1162457)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 18 17:24:09 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by Joe V on Mon Jun 18 17:12:15 2012.

6th Avenue el. The steel was sent to Japan. There was never definitive proof the steel went directly into the military, but it doesn't matter. It would have freed up other steel for the military.

(1162466)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by Joe V on Mon Jun 18 18:33:05 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jun 18 14:20:52 2012.

The PC Metroliner "missed" EXPL by just 8 years ?



(1162485)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jun 18 20:42:11 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 18 12:56:54 2012.

I had always thought they removed those loop tracks in 1935!

(1162488)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by 3-9 on Mon Jun 18 20:48:32 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jun 18 14:20:52 2012.

Yeah, but by the time Amtrak rolled around, it probably wouldn't have wanted to deal with another terminal that was off the NE corridor. That would have left Conrail/NJ Transit, who probably wouldn't have seen the need either, since at that time service comfortably fit inside Penn Station.

(1162489)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jun 18 20:57:45 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 18 12:53:23 2012.

I was surprised to see that most of the iron work for the old 159th Street el yard (6th&9th Ave els) was still up after the War. Most of the tracks were gone, but the structure underneath was almost complete. Wonder why they never used that stuff?

(1162497)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 18 21:13:40 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by Joe V on Mon Jun 18 18:33:05 2012.

Sounds about right. Metroliner started when, 1967?

(1162498)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 18 21:16:12 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jun 18 20:42:11 2012.

They stopped using them in 1935. The structure remained until, IIRC, 1942 or 1943.

(1162500)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jun 18 21:41:23 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 18 21:16:12 2012.

Yea, you are right. I found a 1939 photo of Sands St with the loop tracks still there. Guess nobody has any interior photos of the statioon!

(1162527)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by 3-9 on Mon Jun 18 23:02:04 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 18 13:34:40 2012.

No argument there, even though I don't necessarily hate the current Penn Sta (don't love it either though).

(1162528)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by 3-9 on Mon Jun 18 23:21:26 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Jun 18 14:32:30 2012.

Didn't they use the northern half of QBP for a train display for the '64 World's Fair? I seem to remember reading once that they showed off some rolling stock at QBP, like the R33/36's and the Q cars, so I figured they used the derelict portion.

(1162533)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by 3-9 on Mon Jun 18 23:51:17 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jun 18 14:23:02 2012.

Not sure about Acela, or even Metroliners, since "first class accommodations" typically means "bring the passengers in as close as possible", which would generally mean Penn Station, and if necessary a subway trip to one of the various destinations in Manhattan. Maybe Keystone service or NY-Wash regionals might have gone to Exchange Place. Even so, with NJT's current desire to run as many people directly into Manhattan as possible, I think it would still be treated like a red-headed stepchild, even more so than Hoboken. Probably demolish a big chunk of the tracks and platforms in addition to building over it, like I believe they proposed for Hoboken once and what was done to Camden in Baltimore.

(1162534)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by 3-9 on Mon Jun 18 23:52:49 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 18 21:13:40 2012.

1969, per Wikipedia.

(1162539)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jun 19 01:12:48 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by 3-9 on Mon Jun 18 23:51:17 2012.

since "first class accommodations" typically means "bring the passengers in as close as possible", which would generally mean Penn Station, and if necessary a subway trip to one of the various destinations in Manhattan

The waterfront terminals' advantage was (and still is, if NJDOT had actually been using their noodle) their proximity to Wall Street. Exchange Place Terminal had Exchange Place H&M/PATH station directly underneath. So how is that not "as close as possible" to Wall Street compared to NY Penn?

Even so, with NJT's current desire to run as many people directly into Manhattan as possible

NJT has gone mad. Not even the LIRR or Metro-North run all of their trains into Manhattan. And the Metroliner would not be NJT, anyhow.



(1162540)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jun 19 01:14:51 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by Joe V on Mon Jun 18 18:33:05 2012.

If the Metroliner itself had been developed sooner, there would have been a four-year window, probably.

(1162541)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jun 19 01:16:20 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by SLRT on Mon Jun 18 21:13:40 2012.

That was the original target year for service startup, per the High Speed Ground Transportation Act of 1965.

(1162552)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by SLRT on Tue Jun 19 06:10:53 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by 3-9 on Mon Jun 18 23:21:26 2012.

There was no train display, per se, but they did bring in the now-museum Standards, the now-museum Lo-Vs and the then-repainted Qs (now BUs), but they came in on their respective upper-level revenue tracks. The tracks on the northern side were long gone, and the structure either demolished at that point, or in the process.

(1162553)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by SLRT on Tue Jun 19 06:15:07 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jun 19 01:14:51 2012.

The Metroliner started with a single-round trip, and gradually added more. The lure was downtown to downtown. In the era, I can't see any market to dump you on the Jersey side at a premium fare. If you were that anxious to go downtown, PATH was across the platform at Newark. Today, with train traffic that was unimaginable in 1969, Exchange Place MIGHT have a shot.


(1162554)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by SLRT on Tue Jun 19 06:54:28 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jun 19 01:12:48 2012.

Theory is one thing, putting it into practice is another. How about a dedicated bus service from Jersey City to various points in NYC?

Well, the B&O did just that to try to keep the Royal Blue route going, Communipaw Avenue to D.C. I remember seeing their buses parked opposite 370 Jay Street -- that was their connection to DOWNTOWN BROOKLYN. Didn't save the service, and that was less than a decade before Exchange Place closed.

(1162565)

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Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives.

Posted by 3-9 on Tue Jun 19 09:03:28 2012, in response to Re: 1907: Interior of the Brooklyn Bridge el station, from the Municipal Archives., posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jun 19 01:12:48 2012.

So how is that not "as close as possible" to Wall Street compared to NY Penn?

Sorry, I should have been a little clearer. NY Penn is more centrally located overall, with direct access to midtown and with access to subway lines to various points all over lower Manhattan. Exchange Pl would have PATH to WTC only and maybe ferry service to a couple of coastal points. It would serve a segment of commuters but wouldn't have quite as broad an appeal as Penn.

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