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War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by Fred G on Mon Dec 27 17:57:43 2010

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My turn to be harassed by the SEPTA Transit police. I snapped a photo of an incoming Broad St Subway train at City Hall when I was faced with a person asking me if I was "authorized to take photos". I say person at this point because while well dressed, he wore no police uniform. I told him photography was allowed in SEPTA . He claimed it was not and claimed he was a police officer. "Let's see a badge" I sez. We all got on the train where he produced a badge. Ok fine, he's a cop. And he continues this tirade where I didn't have authorization to take photos. Jersey Mike heard this and added that that wasn't true. I told the officer to call a cop on us if that's the case. By then we reached Race-Vine station where we were ordered off the train and detained on the platform by the officer, who radio'd for other officers, who showed up, first 2 then 2 more until we had at least 4 and at most 6 cops with us on the platform. We got frisked for weapons and long story short, I was given a citation for disorderly conduct and was told to sign it. I of course insisted on reading what I was signing and noticed in the narrative that I "had used profanity". This was false and I called the officer on it and he told me "you don't tell me what to write" and so I refused to sign it. I'm still issued the citation, have a court date, etc.
He told me "that will teach you how to treat an officer when he questions you". I said "no, I wouldn't do one thing different; you weren't wearing a uniform and I had to ask you to show ID that you were a cop." We were free to leave so we did. What a pain in the ass. I didn't need nor do I need "authorization" to take photos; this guy is just a bully. And Jersey Mike, thanks for sticking around.

your pal,
Fred

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by BMTLines on Mon Dec 27 18:11:28 2010, in response to War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Fred G on Mon Dec 27 17:57:43 2010.

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I'm waiting for the police apologists on this board to say:

1. There must be more to the story
2. Must be something you did
3. The cop is always right - you should have apologized and moved on
4. The cop made a mistake and did not understand the law (all 6 "Ignorant of the law" - I DOUBT that very much though)
5. There is no war on photography
6. All of the above

AFAIAC this is a war on tourism - seems Philadelphia hates anyone who takes pictures of anything more than their designated tourist sites :(

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by EastSideRider on Mon Dec 27 18:16:33 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by BMTLines on Mon Dec 27 18:11:28 2010.

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I'm sure if they took that same aggression and ignorance on people creating crime in the city, Philly would be safer than NYC...

But really, 12-18 inches on the ground, and your worried about photographers??? FAIL! >_>

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by Fred G on Mon Dec 27 18:17:28 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by BMTLines on Mon Dec 27 18:11:28 2010.

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Hehe, que sera sera on what the board says; I put it out there to show another episode of harassment over photography.

your pal,
Fred

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by aem7ac on Mon Dec 27 18:19:31 2010, in response to War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Fred G on Mon Dec 27 17:57:43 2010.

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Fred, I'm sorry this happened to you. Just speak Chinese the next time this happens. Don't even engage the officers. Jersey Mike saw me do this once at the MBTA and he was like, "Wow!" The guy left me alone after five minutes of trying to point to the badge on his right shoulder and making picture snapping motions. I continued to motion for the train and made a swiping motion (back then it was a swipe motion) with a T Pass.

AEM7AC

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by Fred G on Mon Dec 27 18:23:17 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by aem7ac on Mon Dec 27 18:19:31 2010.

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It's worth a try. I think it would work formosa us.

your pal,
Fred

PS Which dialect?

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by EastSideRider on Mon Dec 27 18:23:18 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by aem7ac on Mon Dec 27 18:19:31 2010.

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Hmmm, I know 4 languages too. Thanks for the tip!

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by EastSideRider on Mon Dec 27 18:26:31 2010, in response to War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Fred G on Mon Dec 27 17:57:43 2010.

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Maybe it was too much for them to shovel or salt somewhere, or help people push cars....Seriously, in a blizzard, the least thing a cop should be worried about is some guy taking photos. But in Philly, you can get bored fast :-/

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Dec 27 18:26:59 2010, in response to War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Fred G on Mon Dec 27 17:57:43 2010.

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Whoa, sorry to hear that. One thing I'd like to ask the cop, unless you know the answer, is why didn't he write you a citation for "taking photographs without authorization" if he felt you were guilty of that right from the beginning?

Also, you didn't have the SEPTA photography printouts with you, right?

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by Fred G on Mon Dec 27 18:37:49 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Dec 27 18:26:59 2010.

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I completely forgot about the printouts for SEPTA photography.

your pal,
Fred

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by aem7ac on Mon Dec 27 18:38:03 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Fred G on Mon Dec 27 18:23:17 2010.

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I assume you and Jersey Mike made arrangements for getting representation, assuming you needed some?

I used Mandarin Chinese which sounds more official and whiny, but any dialect woulda done the same thing. It really didn't matter whether I used the same dialect or even language throughout the whole dialogue.



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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by Robert From Queens on Mon Dec 27 18:43:13 2010, in response to War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Fred G on Mon Dec 27 17:57:43 2010.

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Fred, what the police did to you was a total waste of time and money.

Maybe the police should concentrate on catching purse-snatchers and pick-pockets.

If the NSA and CIA want to protect us, maybe they should hire more employees who can translate Farsi. The "chatter" is where the information is, not chasing people who take pictures of the subway.

Everything needed to commit mayhem is already on the Internet.

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by BMTLines on Mon Dec 27 18:43:50 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by aem7ac on Mon Dec 27 18:19:31 2010.

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My dad did that only with Greek. Got him out of being issued a citation for smoking on the subway about 30 years ago. The befuddled cop just ended up using motions and body language to tell my dad not to smoke and gave up trying to write a summons. Don't now if that would work today.

Also worked to get my dad out of serving jury duty. He pretended not to know how to read or write on any of the questionnaires or forms they gave him. After the clerk tried for 10 minutes to explain to him what "Last Name" meant on the form - they gave up and dismissed him..

For the record he spoke perfect English and even served during WWII in the US Army :)





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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by aem7ac on Mon Dec 27 18:48:17 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by BMTLines on Mon Dec 27 18:43:50 2010.

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Don't know if that would work today.
It will. No cop nowadays wants a discrimination lawsuit, except in Suffolk.

This is fcuked up, right? What if an actual terrorist actually doing something suspicious did this?

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Mon Dec 27 18:56:28 2010, in response to War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Fred G on Mon Dec 27 17:57:43 2010.

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dammed pigs !

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 27 19:02:07 2010, in response to War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Fred G on Mon Dec 27 17:57:43 2010.

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Sorry I wasn't recording Fred, I didn't even know that ass hole was some sort of cop. Of course then I wouldn't have been able to get some rockin PATCO snow footage on the trip back.

At the end of it all you should have asked why you weren't getting a ticket for taking photos if that is what he was so worried about.

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 19:03:00 2010, in response to War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Fred G on Mon Dec 27 17:57:43 2010.

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So sorry to hear this Fred, and you guys were really looking forward to this trip too. What a way to put a damper on what was to be a fun day.
You did the right thing. I hope you have the time to fight it, as it sounds that this person is in the wrong here.



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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 27 19:03:02 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by EastSideRider on Mon Dec 27 18:16:33 2010.

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It took about 20 minutes for the "backup" to show up. I think the dude was some sort of supervisor because he didn't have anywhere to be.

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 19:05:44 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 27 19:03:02 2010.

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It's great to see that tax dollars are being spent on having at least 6 officers on the scene of this nonsense.
Also nice to see that there's so little "real" crime in Philly to have so much manpower spent on this as they obviously have no real crime going on to have to spend time on....

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 27 19:08:15 2010, in response to War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Fred G on Mon Dec 27 17:57:43 2010.

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Oh you forgot about the part where we were on the platform waiting for the backup and some girl with a cell phone camera took a flash picture of all of us. I was waiting for the guy to bring her into the little pow wow as well XD

The only thing this taught me is to never ever assist in any police matter. If they have so much time to go about threatening civilians engaged in lawful activity then they sure as hell don't need my help providing evidence or calling for help if they are shot and bleeding on the street.

If anyone want to know about a well documented case of what police are really up to behind the scenes then spend about 40 minutes listening to act 2 of this "This American Life" episode.

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 19:08:16 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by aem7ac on Mon Dec 27 18:19:31 2010.

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Hahaha, that's classic.
I have seen other bilingual people do the same thing in the past...but that only works until the cop starts answering in Spanish (or fill in a blank)!

Of course, you are "probably" pretty safe with Chinese to non-Chinese officers!

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 27 19:08:54 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Fred G on Mon Dec 27 18:37:49 2010.

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Fred was on a roll telling off non-cop employee douches.

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by blue8IRT on Mon Dec 27 19:10:08 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by EastSideRider on Mon Dec 27 18:16:33 2010.

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Philly can never be measured in the same breath as NYC. Philly has never amounted to it's potential. I have no intentions of photographing there. The only time I ride SEPTA is in late January or early February for the auto show. They can stick their pictures and their stupid looking subway stock. P.S. I would rather walk the streets of my old neighborhood in the Bronx (Melrose) than be in Philly at any time. They hate outsiders in their loving city.

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 19:10:54 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by BMTLines on Mon Dec 27 18:43:50 2010.

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LOL!!! My grandfather (who spoke English, but who's native language was Dutch) did that too from what I hear back in the 50's. There was a fishing pier that only "Village" residents were allowed to use, and he was just outside of the village boundary. So a cop came up to him to tell him he couldn't be there, and he would just smile and curse at him in Dutch and pretend he didn't understand what he was saying. The cop, after getting frustrated, just threw up his arms and left....

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 27 19:14:51 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Robert From Queens on Mon Dec 27 18:43:13 2010.

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If the NSA and CIA want to protect us, maybe they should hire more employees who can translate Farsi. The "chatter" is where the information is, not chasing people who take pictures of the subway.

The NSA and CIA do not chase people in the subway.

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 27 19:18:44 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by aem7ac on Mon Dec 27 18:19:31 2010.

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In hindsight what was obvious was that the cop was trying to harass Fred about photography without "harassing" him about photography. Not sure he said we couldn't take pictures, but he was making all sorts of veiled statements that it wasn't a "good idea" to take pictures.

It's one thing for the Police to be mistaken about policies, but its another to KNOW them and then try to get around them with bullying and intimidation. That is what made Fred so annoyed, the blatant abuse of power.

If Fred gives me the cop's name I'll file a complaint with SEPTA. I should have taken a picture of the guy from the other end of the subway car, but the lighting is always terrible.

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 27 19:19:32 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by aem7ac on Mon Dec 27 18:38:03 2010.

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I don't need any representation, I was just a witness. It's just a citation. The punishment is showing up to have it thrown out.

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 27 19:20:21 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by aem7ac on Mon Dec 27 18:48:17 2010.

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As long as what you say doesn't sound like "durka durka" you're fine XD

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 27 19:21:05 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 19:05:44 2010.

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While we were standing there some call about a ute threatening ppl with a pipe came over the radio. Nobody present bothered to assist.

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 27 19:21:51 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 19:03:00 2010.

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We'll have a good chance of a re-do tomorrow...only with a bigger show of force.

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 19:22:39 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 27 19:21:05 2010.

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Heh, people taking photos of train in the snow = high crime to have 6 officers spend time on. A guy threatening people with a pipe = no big deal. Twisted.

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by EastSideRider on Mon Dec 27 19:27:33 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by blue8IRT on Mon Dec 27 19:10:08 2010.

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Keep in mind that's just SOME Philly people. And for what its worth, some of the people in NYC aren't all that great either. Down here, we make groups, in NYC, its about "I".

P.S. I'm a NYC native who lives outside Philly.

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Dec 27 19:31:04 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by blue8IRT on Mon Dec 27 19:10:08 2010.

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Finally, someone here telling the truth about Philly, told you guys I'm not crazy.

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by EastSideRider on Mon Dec 27 19:31:26 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by blue8IRT on Mon Dec 27 19:10:08 2010.

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Forgot to mention this but, I find it funny you call it stupid, yet while NYC became and still is at standstill in all forms of transportation, Philly with its "stupid vehicles" kept moving as normal with few delays. Isn't NYC supposed to be better though? :)

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by Robert From Queens on Mon Dec 27 19:33:12 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 27 19:14:51 2010.

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Mike, I'm on your side. Obviously - we hope - the NSA anc CIA don't chase people in the subway.

My comment was a metaphor for, as Borat said "Your War of Terror" and how the resources available are being squandered.

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by EastSideRider on Mon Dec 27 19:36:47 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 27 19:08:54 2010.

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He's pretty good at that. I think the big lenses he uses give him special aggressive powers :-P

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by R36 #9346 on Mon Dec 27 19:39:36 2010, in response to War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Fred G on Mon Dec 27 17:57:43 2010.

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Fred, you should get in touch with Carlos.

In fact, I'll send him a tweet.

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by aem7ac on Mon Dec 27 19:40:19 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 27 19:08:54 2010.

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Fred was on a roll telling off non-cop employee douches.
But why even bother to entertain those douches? You just treat them like the homeless. They ask for a quarter and you look the other way and continue your business. And if they follow you and harrass you, you call the police citing unidentified people harrassing you.

If they were really non-employee and non-cop, that's a fake badge and you could get a real cop to give them jail time for flashing it. You know, one of them Chinese-made badges that you buy on eBay.





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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 19:46:20 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by R36 #9346 on Mon Dec 27 19:39:36 2010.

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Yes, seriously.

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Dec 27 19:48:40 2010, in response to War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Fred G on Mon Dec 27 17:57:43 2010.

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Sorry you had to go through that, you seem like a cool dude. Based on past experience you also did the right thing by keeping your cool even though he gave you the disorderly conduct citation anyway. Jersey Mike is also a good dude for sticking by you, props to him.

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by kp5308 on Mon Dec 27 19:49:18 2010, in response to War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Fred G on Mon Dec 27 17:57:43 2010.

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Wow. Sorry to hear about your ordeal. A Legend claim should clear all of this up. Just take Vogel wit'cha :o)

Seriously the disorderly citation is much more difficult to defend & is a common tool used to "show who is in charge". Also packing equipment like you do draws attention. Don't get me wrong Bjork, I'm not saying this is some kind of excuse for what happened, but it is an excuse that is used to start something like this & it really is SAD.

FWIW when we went thru SEPTA's Dispatching Center we had a conversation about this very subject with no clear "yes or no" answers from management. BUT they gave us full photo access to the whole place!

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Mon Dec 27 19:50:13 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by blue8IRT on Mon Dec 27 19:10:08 2010.

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Philly has never amounted to it's potential.

I agree with this statement, but your highly arrogant post disgusts me. Philadelphia does have it's shortcomings in areas, but there are many charms about it that your blindness could never see.

It's not that Philadelphians don't like outsiders. Philadelphians just don't like arrogant people who look down on the city and its residents.

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Dec 27 19:55:44 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by The Flxible Neofan on Mon Dec 27 19:50:13 2010.

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Hey, you always have Philly Cheesesteak.....

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Mon Dec 27 19:59:48 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by R36 #9346 on Mon Dec 27 19:39:36 2010.

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Yes I highly agree! I don't think this issue has been pressed yet in the media, and SEPTA actually cares about customer service, so they will listen to something like this!

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by Easy on Mon Dec 27 20:08:35 2010, in response to War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Fred G on Mon Dec 27 17:57:43 2010.

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Man that really sucks! Asshole cop on a power trip as usual! I hope that you fight it and that it isn't too much of an aggravation or take up too much of your time.

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by BMTLines on Mon Dec 27 20:08:44 2010, in response to War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Fred G on Mon Dec 27 17:57:43 2010.

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You should also try to talk to the ACLUofPA to see if they have any interest or at the very least make them aware of the continuing problems

I know that the NYCLU and the National Capitol ACLU (DC) are very aggressive on photo rights issues - I haven't heard much from the ACLU of PA.

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by BMTLines on Mon Dec 27 20:10:38 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by BMTLines on Mon Dec 27 20:08:44 2010.

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And of course -

SUE SEPTA!



I wouldn't settle for less than the price of a Hasselblad if this happened to me!

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Dec 27 20:10:39 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by kp5308 on Mon Dec 27 19:49:18 2010.

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The website gives a very clear answer on this subject, for starters.

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Dec 27 20:13:06 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by blue8IRT on Mon Dec 27 19:10:08 2010.

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Irrelevant and ridiculous.

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Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly

Posted by Easy on Mon Dec 27 20:15:40 2010, in response to Re: War On Photography Continues In Philly, posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Dec 27 19:19:32 2010.

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It's just a citation. The punishment is showing up to have it thrown out.

Hopefully. As it is it's just his word against Fred's. And even if the cop decides not to show if it's like my citation in LA it's more than that. Fred may or may not have to:

1. Show up to say that he will contest the citation and request an arraignment.
2. Show up at an arraignment to plead not guilty.
3. Pay some amount (mine was supposed to be $900 but was waived) in order to schedule a trial.
4. Show up at a trial where the cop may or may not show up.

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