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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by JerBear on Thu May 16 06:40:28 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 16 06:13:39 2019.

But so here we hit on an interesting conflation.
People who want speed cameras for the purpose of safety are too few to just get the laws passed however they like. Are there other politicians that will support the law if it can be used to also collect money? If so, should the people who want the cameras for safety reject the offer of support from those who want them for revenue and ignore their deep-seated concern for safety in order to not tarnish the optics of the law? No, they are going to compromise to get safety however they can get safety.
But you can't wholesale pretend like no one wants the cameras for safety just because the optics make it look a certain way to some people.
Same as the people who want congestion pricing for the reduction in vehicles compromising and allowing the funds collected to be used in multitudinous ways they're not happy with because at least it moves things in the right direction of fewer vehicles driving around the main business areas.
Should we throw the baby out with the bathwater unless everything is done perfectly the first time?

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 16 06:50:50 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by JerBear on Thu May 16 06:40:28 2019.

The problem with getting the money people involved is this: Imagine if a set of cameras worked perfectly well in that no one speeded and therefore the cameras did not make a single cent. The safety people would support keeping the cameras as being successful for their goals, while the money people would want them taken down as they don't generate revenue. What would end up happening is that the cameras would end up getting installed where they are completely unnecessary for safety, but could maximize revenue.

I'm pro congestion charging because the charge itself causes the benefit, regardless of where it goes. IOW, if the congestion charge is too effective, revenue is still maximized.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by pragmatist on Thu May 16 07:10:36 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by AlM on Thu May 16 05:32:17 2019.

There are a surprisingly large number of non ASP spots around the city. Streets get ASP because the same people who litter complain about the dirt, and mechanical sweeping is the most cost effective method of keeping streets reasonably clean. It is down to a 90 minute stretch now, 1 day a week (for each side) with over 30 days of suspensions on the schedule. People want to own a car, and think they are owed a place to keep it for free. TS

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by AlM on Thu May 16 07:15:46 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by pragmatist on Thu May 16 07:10:36 2019.

1 day a week (for each side)

My street is 2 days a week (on the side where parking is allowed at all). I realize many streets are 1 day a week, and more than I thought are zero days per week.

I never deposit litter in the streets and yet I want the cleaning because other people do deposit litter there.




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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by pragmatist on Thu May 16 07:34:24 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by AlM on Thu May 16 07:15:46 2019.

Most of the former 2 day a week streets have been converted to one day and the hours shortened. Some streets with mixed uses in the neighborhoods (generally retail) actually need 2 days. In NYC a property owner is technically responsible out 18 inches from the curb, but we generally need ASP anyway. On my block, we have an island down the middle, and parking is allowed, so it would never be clean if not for ASP. In many commercial strips, it is not alternating days, but early mornings before the meters take effect.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by orange blossom special on Thu May 16 08:21:20 2019, in response to Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri May 3 07:30:01 2019.

Is the government in charge?

Is it a Democratic Government?

Answer Key: The answer is the opposite of the two previous answers.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by AlM on Thu May 16 09:04:01 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by AlM on Thu May 16 07:15:46 2019.

My street really needs cleaning once a week. But so many street cleaning days are canceled, and illegally parked cars make the cleaning useless on so many other days, that having no parking twice a week averages out to cleaning hardly more than once a week.


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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Joe V on Thu May 16 09:30:56 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 16 06:35:24 2019.

Then stop endorsing traffic circles and put up traffic lights.
It's ridiculous that pedestrians half to deviate up the street 100' and back on the other side.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Joe V on Thu May 16 09:32:59 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 16 06:18:05 2019.

"Yield" to pedestrians is a legal term. It does not work in practice.
Americans as a class are stupid drivers.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 16 09:53:25 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Joe V on Thu May 16 09:30:56 2019.

Traffic lights are stupid if the traffic volumes are low. If you stop at a red light and not one car passes in that time, then the light is useless.

Where is the deviation from a roundabout 100'?

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 16 09:54:06 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Joe V on Thu May 16 09:32:59 2019.

How is it a legal term?

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Joe V on Thu May 16 10:04:21 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 16 09:53:25 2019.

Bound Brook, that's how far you have to be away to stay safe. Do not expect cars to stop at crosswalks or you will get run over. Traffic comes to a standstill on the Main Street every rush hour, headed to South Bound Brook.

Alexander Road in Princeton and Alexander Road are not lightly tarffic'd streets. They have put up 2 rotaries along them.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Joe V on Thu May 16 10:05:22 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 16 09:54:06 2019.

After you get hit, the car that didn't yield get sued. It does nothing to prevent it.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 16 10:17:53 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Joe V on Thu May 16 10:05:22 2019.

It's also a violation and one can be cited for it.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 16 10:26:24 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Joe V on Thu May 16 10:04:21 2019.

So like I said: We can't have nice things because of shitty drivers.

Rotaries are not for lightly trafficked streets. They are just one step below traffic lights and in some cases are better than them.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Joe V on Thu May 16 11:22:19 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 16 10:17:53 2019.

The victim's family will love hearing that, after the person got killed by a non-yielding driver at a crosswalk near a rotary.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by pragmatist on Thu May 16 11:55:21 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 16 06:18:05 2019.

They struggle with them in areas where they are not seen, but regular drivers in areas where they are used are better. You can usually spot the "locals" pretty quickly compared to the drivers who don't see them. There are a couple of them (one in Fresh Meadows and one in Brooklyn) that I use on a regular basis.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu May 16 11:57:44 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 16 06:18:05 2019.

I wasn't too clear. I meant you need entrances to the traffic circle (which would likely be marked by a yield sign but don't need to be) to be practical entrances (not so delayed by traffic in the circle or pedestrians before the circle).

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 16 12:58:12 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Joe V on Thu May 16 11:22:19 2019.

And? You were the one who brought up the possibility of a lawsuit. The Plaintiff's family would probably like that the defendant can be found Negligent per se.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Joe V on Thu May 16 13:22:21 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 16 12:58:12 2019.

If the driver failed to yield right of way to a pedestrian in a crosswalk, he is negligent, period.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 16 16:16:06 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Joe V on Thu May 16 13:22:21 2019.

Way to miss the point.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu May 16 17:30:41 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 16 06:18:05 2019.

There's no harm in putting the yield signs up, though. Not that it helps in Massachusetts, where they are completely and utterly ignored (in all contexts, not just rotaries).

As for pedestrians, there's two solutions:
1. put the pedestrian crossings farther from the roundabout for maximum safety.
2. integrate the crossing with islands along with the various entrance/exits for maximum pedestrian convenience.

Here's an example of the latter. This flyover-roundabout combination replaced the worst traffic light in the area. While from the air it looks complicated for pedestrians, from the ground it's quite simple. Thanks to the islands, the act of crossing is reduced to navigating a sequence of one or two lane one way roads. The sharp turns force cars to slow down enough that they will easily be able to stop for a pedestrian who has stepped into the crosswalk.

This one further down the road sees significant pedestrian traffic as this intersection cuts through a college campus. For cars, getting out of tricentennial drive between 4-5PM has a bit of a wait, but it's still overall faster than the traffic light it replaced. Not to mention, people used to ignore the 25MPH speed limit to challenge a changing light, now that danger is all gone.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu May 16 18:04:11 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by pragmatist on Thu May 16 07:10:36 2019.

In Albany ASP is used as a thinly veiled attempt at opening up parking for schools. The streets surrounding Albany High and the nearby grade school have patterns like: Monday, Wednesday, Friday 5-7AM on one side, Tuesday & Thursday 5-7AM on the other side.

There's also one street downtown that is technically one travel lane with one parking lane (complete with marked out parking spaces), but they intentionally set the rules so that the parking lane is emptied out from 3-6PM each weekday, creating an unofficial 2nd travelling lane. Without that unofficial lane the PM rush would be gridlocked, as that is the most direct route to the highway.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 16 18:55:40 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu May 16 17:30:41 2019.

Thanks!

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 16 18:56:32 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu May 16 18:04:11 2019.

NYC has lots of those where parking lane is an official rush hour travel lane.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Edwards! on Thu May 16 21:14:48 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed May 15 05:59:02 2019.

Yup.
We were taught to ALWAYS LISTEN TO YOUR VEHICLE.
PAY ATTENTION TO YOUR SURROUNDINGS..and definitely keep your eyes on more than just the road.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by AlM on Thu May 16 23:02:40 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu May 16 17:30:41 2019.

These look very well done.



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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri May 17 04:24:38 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by AlM on Thu May 16 23:02:40 2019.

I like the backward facing arrows branded on the street at the yielding points; I'm used to those but you don't see those around NYC. I wonder if they are proven effective.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri May 17 06:00:11 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri May 17 04:24:38 2019.

There aren't that many yield signs in NYC but those arrows are used.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri May 17 07:11:16 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri May 17 06:00:11 2019.

Here's a VERY fresh installation. You can still find the project details on the NYCDOT website under "Lindenwood Triangle." I haven't been here recently, but given that the the street view dates to August 2018, it should have been fully painted by now.



IMO, this is an excellent improvement.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri May 17 07:16:48 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri May 17 07:11:16 2019.

Thanks!

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Catfish 44 on Fri May 17 07:28:28 2019, in response to Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri May 3 07:30:01 2019.

CoJo strikes again.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri May 17 08:06:24 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed May 15 21:03:23 2019.

NYC DOT has a whole page on metered parking rates with a special section for Manhattan streets, so there must be some somewhere...

All parking signs in the City are available in two different online GIS maps.

NYCDOT Parking Regulations, under "Look up parking regulations."

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri May 17 08:17:30 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 16 06:09:37 2019.

Those people east of Ocean Avenue gas the good sense to reject alternate side if the street cleaning when it was offered to them back in the 1960s. And guess what? Their streets are clean. Also several years ago when ASP was suspended in Park Slope for about three months, I forget why, those streets were no dirtier either. So the question is, why is it needed.

Also, they recently added no night time parking along half of Knapp Street to prevent people from storing cars on the street.

Also in Manhattan Beach, the CB refuses to let Sanitation relax the regulations like it did in the rest if the city. So it is still four days a week for three hours a day, which is a real pain for the Kingsborough students. Residents claim the students constantly block their driveways. I gave no sympathy for them because they coukd make larking a lot easier with two days a week, 90 minute regulation as in the rest of the city.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri May 17 08:18:16 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 16 06:39:31 2019.

It's only south of Avenue R that there is no ASP.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri May 17 08:19:27 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by pragmatist on Thu May 16 07:10:36 2019.

Manhattan Beach is still three hours a day, four days a week.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by AlM on Fri May 17 08:35:23 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri May 17 08:17:30 2019.

why is it needed

It's needed in areas where visitors pass through and drop stuff as they go.



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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri May 17 12:31:01 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu May 16 11:57:44 2019.

I meant you need entrances to the traffic circle (which would likely be marked by a yield sign but don't need to be)

Yes, they do need to be. It's an MUTCD requirement.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri May 17 12:37:19 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue May 14 14:56:03 2019.

I donít understand why they canít use a conventional traffic light that can be activated by a push button.

Compliance - drivers either don't see cars coming and blow the red light, or they don't see an intersection and miss the signal entirely. The HAWK also speeds things up for drivers, because they are allowed to go during the flashing DON'T WALK instead of having to wait at a red light.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Joe V on Fri May 17 14:30:22 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Thu May 16 17:30:41 2019.

The traffic is too heavy for the rotaries I am familiar with. They should be traditional intersections with lights. They got put up because some Planner geek went to Europe and thought they were quaint, or were "traffic calming".

Telling pedestrians to walk up 100' or so and back is ridiculous. It is bad enough for drivers having to look out in all directions for anything that moves. Compound that with pedestrians, hoping to catch the driver's eye is too much more distraction and too dangerous.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by New Flyer #857 on Fri May 17 15:02:05 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri May 17 12:37:19 2019.

What I've seen in England is:

No pedestrian input = Green Light
Pedestrian "registers" = Yellow, then Red. Pedestrian gets Walk. Time elapses, Pedestrian gets flashing Don't Walk while traffic gets Flashing Yellow. More time elapses, and it's back to Green.

The Hawk Beacon as described on Wikipedia seems a bit unnecessarily complicated compared to that, because in the system I describe it isn't necessary for drivers to learn new signal aspects (or even to know what type of signal they are at) for it to work.

Plus at a brief glance it seems that a Hawk Beacon malfunctioning to dark (power outage for example) could be interpreted as an "all clear" when there are in fact pedestrians trying to cross.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri May 17 15:53:40 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri May 17 12:37:19 2019.

People who blow red lights arenít going to blow HAWKs? A standard three color light can have a flashing red.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri May 17 15:54:17 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Joe V on Fri May 17 14:30:22 2019.

IDWTP

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri May 17 17:38:31 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Fri May 17 12:31:01 2019.

PWN3D!

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Joe V on Sat May 18 01:54:31 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri May 17 15:54:17 2019.

Well, I know my turf better than you who has never been here, and I saw the before and after.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat May 18 05:37:49 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Joe V on Sat May 18 01:54:31 2019.

Iím not arguing about that, you may be right about that. I am disagreeing with the rest of your post where you make a blanket condemnation of rotaries.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Edwards! on Sat May 18 10:43:26 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 16 06:18:05 2019.

How is that?
We have one right here in Latham..and there's never a serious incident.
Folks get use to it knowing Entering one,they Yield the right of way to traffic already there.
You get in where you fit in.

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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by TransitChuckG on Sat May 18 10:50:02 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Edwards! on Sat May 18 10:43:26 2019.

Latham, N.Y.? I was up there in the early 1960s.


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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Edwards! on Sat May 18 13:53:52 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by TransitChuckG on Sat May 18 10:50:02 2019.

Yeah.


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Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat May 18 14:01:52 2019, in response to Re: Will Queens Bus Redesign really speed things up?, posted by Edwards! on Sat May 18 10:43:26 2019.

Did you finally repeal the Good Samaritan law up there?

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