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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by thedarkliberator on Tue Oct 24 01:49:19 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by R30A on Tue Oct 24 00:32:07 2006. Also kindly note that the express fares are over double that of locals and make just as much sense as many local routes around. Admittedly in many cases the fare alone will not compensate for the expenditures involved in running the service. |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by thedarkliberator on Tue Oct 24 01:51:42 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by 9 local on Mon Oct 23 14:58:34 2006. You fail to mention that the MTA needs to keep it's image of keeping cars off the road, and in many cases express buses succeed in doing just that. |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 24 02:08:52 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by 9 local on Mon Oct 23 14:58:34 2006. Gold Metrocard came out many years ago enabling transfer from the subway to the bus. You can get off the 4 or D train and use your Gold Metrocard to transfer to a bus going up Katonah Avenue FOR FREE. It's a brilliant idea, but you seem to have forgotten about itI've forgotten nothing. The express bus still had a fare far more expensive than a local bus/subway combination even pre-Gold Metrocard. But perhaps some people merely want to keep jamming people into the subway? Intermodality; let's focus on that. We can't use a "one-size-fits-all" approach to mass transit. The BxM4 is basically a combination of the 5th/Madison Limited bus, and the Bx1/2 Limited. Those two routes do not need to be combined The BxM4A/B does not run all local; this is why it's called an express bus. The Bx1 and Bx2 limited do not serve Katonah Avenue, so you can't use them to go shopping for food products from the Emerald Isle. There is no "combination" of routes; there may be some duplication of service, but when you're looking to run express routes that give you a one-seat ride from borough to borough, that happens. Oh, and buses do not relieve subway lines They do when they run parallel. It's called giving the passengers a choice. Some passengers would prefer a forward-facing seat in the daylight for the whole journey instead of a lot of standing and/or sitting sideways in the dark, not to mention getting on and off at street level instead of climbing up to an el or down to a subway train. As has been said many times, the capacity of one subway CAR greatly exceeds that of an MCI D4500CT or an MCI Classic. The capacity of one subway train is the same as the capacity of 80 express buses That means absolutely nothing when you have a full subway train. There's a reason why those express bus routes are still running. There's also a reason why you still have express buses going to other boroughs. I repeat: abandon your "one-size-fits-all" approach. You want passengers to have no choice but to use the subway. and since the subway runs MUCH more frequently than the express bus, and is 3 bucks cheaper, there is no point in having any express run that duplicates a subway, even if there is a branch that goes away from the subway line: as I said before, you can always make a transfer from the subway to a local bus For the last time: the express routes didn't come to be for no reason. So long as the MTA can still sell their frequent express bus schedule to enough passengers, those buses will still be around. I doubt you'd want to have to deal with regular users of the BxM4A/B (or even 4C) if they all suddenly went from frequent service to absolutely no service and you were being pointed at as the one responsible . . . |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Oct 24 07:53:55 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Oct 23 23:32:14 2006. Oh, then that person won't mind the fact that they aren't actually paying the MTA what they deserve and they should actually pay about $10.Then the politicians can either go to hell, or pay the MTA all of the revenue they have lost/will lose from express buses. Most of the BxM series routes probably have less passengers per mile traveled than the Bx8, which the BxM4A/B is probably included in, especially due to their high lengths. |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Tue Oct 24 09:03:13 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Oct 23 23:18:58 2006. Please explain why the BxM4A and BxM4B, two completely redundant and inefficient express bus routes, should be saved.The subway is faster, more convenient, more efficient, and cheaper. Let them ride local buses TO the subway, not express buses that duplicate it. And you haven't demonstrated any knowledge about buses at all, you just sit and argue with the majority of us who think that the aforementioned bus routes need to be removed. |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Tue Oct 24 09:04:36 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by thedarkliberator on Tue Oct 24 01:51:42 2006. Express buses that serve areas served by TWO! subway lines contribute very little towards keeping cars off the road. |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Oct 24 10:05:51 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by thedarkliberator on Tue Oct 24 01:49:19 2006. But you are ignoring 2 things here:1. almost all locals are far more efficient then the Q9A 2. the express bus is simply an innefficient means of transporting people. Do I expect the MTA to provide a Boeing Business jet to get me to my classes in the morning? If I paid them 75% of the cost, it would still make no sense, even if, as the case would be, they were lucky enough to have a 75% farebox recovery. |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Tue Oct 24 10:22:26 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by R30A on Tue Oct 24 10:05:51 2006. Provide service on those routes "commensurate" with revenue...that's an easy way to make them die. (Coach USA is doing just that on the 144 SI-Jersey City-Hoboken express to a point where it expects to make money.) As for hearings, hold them JUST SO THAT one can say that the hearing was held in compliance with state law. Cuts could start with the winter pick, if the MTA were smart, probably a bit later once job reassignments are renegotiated between the MTA, ATU 726, and TWU 100.) |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Tue Oct 24 12:38:41 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by The Port of Authority on Tue Oct 24 09:04:36 2006. Express buses that serve areas served by TWO! subway lines contribute very little towards keeping cars off the road.Just like the BM3 and X29, both routes are 1/4 mile apart from TWO subway lines running on the same ROW in Brooklyn. |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 24 13:57:28 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by The Port of Authority on Tue Oct 24 09:04:36 2006. Express buses that serve areas served by TWO! subway lines contribute very little towards keeping cars off the roadThe MTA disagrees. Passengers on those buses also disagree. |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 24 14:04:57 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by The Port of Authority on Tue Oct 24 09:03:13 2006. Please explain why the BxM4A and BxM4B, two completely redundant and inefficient express bus routes, should be savedAsk their passengers. I'm sure they can give you a great answer, even if it's not the one you're looking for. The subway is faster, more convenient, more efficient, and cheaper. Let them ride local buses TO the subway, not express buses that duplicate it Let them eat cake, eh? You'd make a terrible transit planner. I wouldn't want you on the MTA's board. Only reason the subway's cheaper is due to higher subsidy. (Noticed that you couldn't say "more comfortable" when it came to the subway; and it isn't necessarily faster in fact.) And you haven't demonstrated any knowledge about buses at all, you just sit and argue with the majority of us who think that the aforementioned bus routes need to be removed This paragraph smacks of "lalalalala, you don't know about buses". Please grow up. I've actually used the BxM4B to get to/from Katonah Avenue in the past. Have you? And none of any of you calling for the removal of these express routes have given a single reason as to why they should go from very frequent service to no service, suddenly, in one fell swoop. The MTA are experts at cutters; and if they didn't cut this service when they took it over, then they certainly disagree with the emotional opinions of yourself and others. |
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| (37945) | |
Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 24 14:07:02 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by R30A on Tue Oct 24 00:32:07 2006. How do you know they're not lying? |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 24 14:07:59 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by R30A on Tue Oct 24 00:32:07 2006. Let me rephrase that:How do you know that the cost of acquisition was not factored in? |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by New Brunswick Station on Tue Oct 24 14:09:02 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Oct 23 23:19:23 2006. I wonder if anyone can cunt the services and see whether they have duplicates or not. |
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| (37965) | |
Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Oct 24 15:41:20 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 24 14:07:59 2006. READ DAMMITWhere is cost in Passengers Per Mile? |
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| (37969) | |
Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by QM18Express on Tue Oct 24 16:44:30 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by The Port of Authority on Tue Oct 24 09:03:13 2006. Some of the local buses are not that much better. While Express Buses may not be so efficient, they help out the local lines. Like the Q46 during the day on weekdays both ways, saturday and sunday it's AM heading to the subway and PM away from the subway. Those times the Q46 have very little room to carry extra ridership. I don't see the QM1/QM1A going away because the QM1/QM1A is 1 of the highest ridership express routes in the MTA Express Bus Network and also would put a strain on the Q46 as it's aready a busy route as it is.Here are the express bus routes that should stay All SI Express Routes All Ulmer Park routes except X29 All Queens Village routes except X64 X51 X32(I think the NYC Board Of Ed pays for this route) X90(Change to M90, charge local fares, and operate B103 style limited service) Most College Point Routes(QM3 should be gone, QM4 cut to Peak Hours only) All Rockaway Express Routes(QM15 is also in there) Most LGA Routes(I only see QM10 and QM12 getting removed) And Most of the Spring Creek routes(BM4 gone and BQM1 may run along woodhaven blvd with stops along the way) |
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| (37982) | |
Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Tue Oct 24 19:53:13 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 24 13:57:28 2006. Passengers on those buses also disagree.Yea, all 6 of them... |
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| (37983) | |
Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by 9 local on Tue Oct 24 19:59:26 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 24 02:08:52 2006. There's a reason why those express bus routes are still running.Yes, and that's because the MTA paid for those routes because Bloomberg made it an all or nothing (almost forcing the all) deal. To add on to that, there is a clause in the MTA Bus contract that says that no route shall be cut until at least 18 months after the final company is taken over. That means, no cuts can be made until at least August 22, 2007. Oh, by the way, Metro North is more comfortable and MUCH MUCH faster (and less expensive) than the BxM4C (which, if taken over by MTA would be cut IMMEDIATELY). There is a reason why Bee Line is ordering fewer D4000CTs to replace their 96A2 fleet. The subway is always more efficient than the express bus REGARDLESS of whether or not it is more comfortable. Where there is duplication, express routes should not exist. Plus, name the express portion of the BxM4. THERE ISN'T ONE! It's a glorified really long limited route without the turnover that a limited route has. If you're worried about Katonah Avenue, just add a branch of the Bx1/2 to Katonah: it's not that hard. A "one-seat ride" by definition has turnover that is way too low. Passengers DO have a choice: they have the 4, the B, the D, the Bx1, the Bx2, and MANY MANY bus routes in the area: they don't need those unneccessary express routes. I don't think there would be all that many angry passengers outside of MAYBE Riverdale if they lost all express bus service, ESPECIALLY if subway service were improved. |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by 9 local on Tue Oct 24 20:00:43 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by The Port of Authority on Tue Oct 24 19:53:13 2006. Very VERY good point, Rob. |
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| (37988) | |
Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Tue Oct 24 20:10:03 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 24 14:04:57 2006. Ask their passengers. I'm sure they can give you a great answer, even if it's not the one you're looking for.Doesn't matter if the route isn't efficient. If the MTA ran an express route to my house, of course I'd be happy with it, but that doesn't make it cost-effective. Let them eat cake, eh? You'd make a terrible transit planner. I wouldn't want you on the MTA's board. Only reason the subway's cheaper is due to higher subsidy. It's much more effective to use the rail infrastructure that's already there. The BxM4 service area is duplicated with TWO subway lines. Consider the cost of running transit buses on local routes feeding the subway versus running costly express coaches all the way to midtown. It should be obvious which one is more cost-effective. Don't forget the fact that the subway is much more efficient at moving large groups of people than any bus ever will be. Over a thousand people can fit onto one subway train; only about 40 or so will fit on an MCI express coach. (Noticed that you couldn't say "more comfortable" when it came to the subway; Aww, too bad if the seats on the subway are a bit too hard. Public transport isn't aiming to be comfortable. If you want comfort in transportation, get a car. and it isn't necessarily faster in fact.) It actually is, most of the time. Factor in traffic, red lights, numerous stops, and increased dwell times due to wheelchair passengers and you'll find that buses, even expresses, are generally slower. This paragraph smacks of "lalalalala, you don't know about buses". Please grow up. Thank you. If I wanted a RonIsBS answer I'd ask for one. I've actually used the BxM4B to get to/from Katonah Avenue in the past. Have you? Why does that matter if I've ridden it or not? If a route is inefficient I don't need to ride it in order to accurately deem it so. Katonah Avenue is several blocks away from Metro-North. Why not just take that instead? And none of any of you calling for the removal of these express routes have given a single reason as to why they should go from very frequent service to no service, suddenly, in one fell swoop. Yes we have. Please read the thread. The MTA are experts at cutters; and if they didn't cut this service when they took it over, then they certainly disagree with the emotional opinions of yourself and others. Um, the MTA hasn't cut ANY bus routes yet (with the exception of the Q10A, if you can even call that a separate route.) I have a feeling that future service will be (rightfully) drastically reduced on some of the least cost-effective express routes. |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by thedarkliberator on Tue Oct 24 20:12:43 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by 9 local on Tue Oct 24 20:00:43 2006. Rush hour buses have at least one person in each row on a classic most of the time I have rode the route. Granted, outside of peak rush travel there is not the same level of ridership, but many trips serve 25 people or more. |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by R30A on Tue Oct 24 20:13:24 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by thedarkliberator on Tue Oct 24 20:12:43 2006. HAHAYou totally proved his point. Even if full, it is carrying an insignificant amount of people. |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Tue Oct 24 20:16:36 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by thedarkliberator on Tue Oct 24 20:12:43 2006. So that's about 20 or 30 people per bus during rush hours? Okay.Between 4:00 and 7:00, there are 10 outbound BxM4A/B runs. So that's a total of about 200 or 300 rush hour users, all of which could fit into one single subway train with room to spare. |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Tue Oct 24 20:26:58 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by QM18Express on Tue Oct 24 16:44:30 2006. The Q46 is one of the busiest routes in Queens. The entire Union Turnpike corridor needs a subway line; the ridership demands something other than buses.I believe that a few express runs to SI should be kept -- the midtown ones only with major reductions in service. The downtown runs should be axed, as riders can take the SIR to the ferry, a local bus to the ferry, a local bus to the SIR to the ferry, or drive to the ferry. The X27, X28, X29, X37, X38, and X51 need to be removed. They're subway duplicates. The X32 should stay because it isn't a traditional express bus in the same sense as the rest of the routes. And who even rides the X90? Eliminate that in a heartbeat. All Rockaway and LGA routes should be axed. College Point routes... now that's different (QM2 and QM3 can be eliminated, there's no need for the QM4 as passengers can take the Q65A to Forest Hills, and the QM1/A service should be drastically cut.) Eliminate the BM3, BM4 and BQM1. The BQM1 can be replaced with a feeder route from Spring Creek Towers to the Canarsie subway station. |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Oct 24 20:28:35 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by QM18Express on Tue Oct 24 16:44:30 2006. As long as the fare is raised, I agree. |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Tue Oct 24 20:32:07 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Oct 24 20:28:35 2006. You're not going to get the people to pay what they're supposed to (i.e. >>> $10) |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by New Brunswick Station on Tue Oct 24 22:14:49 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by R30A on Tue Oct 24 20:13:24 2006. pwn3d |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by QM18Express on Tue Oct 24 22:29:45 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by The Port of Authority on Tue Oct 24 20:26:58 2006. I have mixed reviews on your suggestons on my ideas."The Q46 is one of the busiest routes in Queens. The entire Union Turnpike corridor needs a subway line; the ridership demands something other than buses" "the QM1/A service should be drastically cut" I have to say that that the QM1/QM1A getting that kind of cut would mean the ridership on the Q46 would become out of hand. The QM1/QM1A is pretty busy route as it is so leave it alone "The X27, X28, X29, X37, X38, and X51 need to be removed. They're subway duplicates." I only agree on the X29. The X28/X38 and X51 are not really subway duplicates. Good luck getting rid of the X27/X37 and X28/X38(Remember when the weekend service was going to get the boot and people got their congress people on this?) "And who even rides the X90? Eliminate that in a heartbeat." Why don't you go down to Water and Fulton around 8-9 in the morning and alot of the seats are full. Maybe wait til the 2nd Ave Subway starts up to Lower Manhattan for the X90 to be gone. |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Tue Oct 24 22:38:52 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by QM18Express on Tue Oct 24 22:29:45 2006. I have to say that that the QM1/QM1A getting that kind of cut would mean the ridership on the Q46 would become out of hand. The QM1/QM1A is pretty busy route as it is so leave it aloneThen just expand service on the Q46! That's not that difficult... maybe create some short-turns and semi-expresses that run non-stop from a certain service area to a subway station. Or, create new routes that connect the QM1/A service areas to key stations on the Queens Blvd subway. I only agree on the X29. The X28/X38 and X51 are not really subway duplicates. Good luck getting rid of the X27/X37 and X28/X38(Remember when the weekend service was going to get the boot and people got their congress people on this?) The X51 is a subway/local bus/LIRR duplicate. The X28 and X38 basically parallel the B64 (not to mention that they run 3 blocks away from the West End Line for a good distance) so they're not really needed. The X27 and X37 are better served with feeder buses for the subway, given that they're so convenient to it. Why don't you go down to Water and Fulton around 8-9 in the morning and alot of the seats are full. Maybe wait til the 2nd Ave Subway starts up to Lower Manhattan for the X90 to be gone. Just because the seats are full doesn't mean that the route is carrying a large number of people. See my post here. The X90 is the king of all subway duplicates. It doesn't even go outside of Manhattan! |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Wed Oct 25 07:56:23 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by The Port of Authority on Tue Oct 24 20:32:07 2006. Because they're corrupted bastards, forget that thought. |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by R4 Bryn Mawr LCL/R5 Paoli EXP on Wed Oct 25 10:41:57 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by The Port of Authority on Tue Oct 24 20:16:36 2006. That's a total of about 200 or 300 rush hour users, all of which could fit into one single subway car. |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Wed Oct 25 11:40:22 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Oct 24 02:08:52 2006. The customer base is far different on the BxM4A/B than on the BxM7 (Co-Op City)The BxM7 is a self-sustaining route, meaning that the farebox revenue can recover most of the expenses laid out on this route. I am not sure but I think some of the revenue from this route also pays out for the lower performing Bronx routes (Parkchester, Pelham Bay, and the BxM4A/B we are discussing). Eliminate all the Bronx routes except for the BxM1/2, and 7. |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Oct 25 12:36:39 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by The Port of Authority on Tue Oct 24 20:16:36 2006. Or even one-and-a-half, but who's really counting? As for areas far away from the subway, or where the local bus line is outside the 3/4 mile radius, create new routes, or bid the express route franchises out (but they would not be subsidized at all, except for buses leased). |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Oct 25 12:37:23 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Wed Oct 25 11:40:22 2006. But does it make a profit? The NYCDOT and most recent FTA information say no...the recovery rate was only 40 percent. |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Wed Oct 25 17:31:06 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Oct 25 12:36:39 2006. Or even one-and-a-half, but who's really counting?One ten-car train can hold more than a thousand people. As for areas far away from the subway, or where the local bus line is outside the 3/4 mile radius, create new routes, or bid the express route franchises out (but they would not be subsidized at all, except for buses leased). That's what LIMITED-STOP service is for! |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by The Port of Authority on Wed Oct 25 17:32:09 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Wed Oct 25 11:40:22 2006. Why keep the BxM1? Just let Riverdale residents use Metro-North. The Hudson RailLink is there for a reason... |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Wed Oct 25 17:36:12 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by The Port of Authority on Wed Oct 25 17:31:06 2006. A 600-foot B division train should be able to hold close to 2000 people easily, and a 510-foot A divsion train could easily hold 1200-1300. THAT is what people should be directed to...and if they don't want it, they can drive, but it'll cost them (London-style congestion charge).Many depots could be closed as a result of configuration, but IMO, SI should get shorter buses, with many of the longer ones to the other four boroughs. |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by TheGreatOne2k6 on Wed Oct 25 20:03:20 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by 9 local on Tue Oct 24 19:59:26 2006. For many people the (B) is just a shuttle to get to the (D) during rush hours.The (4) is already overcrowded, unless you want more people to get stuck in the doors delaying (4) service. |
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Re: My idea for the BxM4 |
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Posted by Gotham Bus Co. on Wed Oct 25 22:21:07 2006, in response to Re: My idea for the BxM4, posted by QM18Express on Tue Oct 24 16:44:30 2006. X32(I think the NYC Board Of Ed pays for this route)1. It's the NYC Department of Education. 2. NYC Transit pays to operate the route. |
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