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What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 5 12:41:06 2011 Here |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by Mr RT on Wed Jul 6 10:51:20 2011, in response to What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 5 12:41:06 2011. The writer, Allen Rosen, says he's not against SBS, but after reading his comments, the opposite is true.He's a typical "planner" who is more concerned about auto traffic then making a fundamental change to enhance public service. "... SBS service (plan) mistakenly throttle automobile traffic ..." "... SBS plans should not require taking away a lane of moving traffic ..." If the goal is to improve the speed of the service, a different colored bus isn't going to be enough, you need dedicated lanes & enforcement to keep cars & trucks out of them. He also blames Robert Moses for Brooklyn's traffic problem, please how long has that man been dead ? Personally I have a problem with SBS/BRT service in NYC, because true BRT service has more then fare payment machines in the street. It also has exclusive ROWs, high platforms, terminals, traffic siginals that see the BRT bus & hold the light for it, etc. SBS in NYC is just a glorified Express/Limited bus. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by Hank Eisenstein on Wed Jul 6 11:40:42 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Mr RT on Wed Jul 6 10:51:20 2011. I felt the same way when I read it. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Jul 6 17:03:47 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Mr RT on Wed Jul 6 10:51:20 2011. this guy is a former MTA employee..and a "planner",like you said.since he a driver also..he doesnt like the idea of "select bus" taking away "his" driving lanes.. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Jul 6 20:50:25 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Mr RT on Wed Jul 6 10:51:20 2011. The writer, Allen Rosen, says he's not against SBS, but after reading his comments, the opposite is true. Mr RT, why are you talking to him in the 'third person'? And furthermore, why are you telling him about himself? |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Jul 6 20:51:01 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Hank Eisenstein on Wed Jul 6 11:40:42 2011. You know that he's standing right there, right? |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Jul 6 21:06:12 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Edwards! on Wed Jul 6 17:03:47 2011. this guy It's almost like you're saying that you don't know him. is a former MTA employee.. As is clearly stated below the article. since he a driver also..he doesnt like the idea of "select bus" taking away "his" driving lanes.. So planners who drive cars must therefore ignore all of the best practices and principles of transportation planning? |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 6 23:26:03 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Mr RT on Wed Jul 6 10:51:20 2011. The writer, Allen Rosen, says he's not against SBS, but after reading his comments, the opposite is true.He's a typical "planner" who is more concerned about auto traffic then making a fundamental change to enhance public service. "... SBS service (plan) mistakenly throttle automobile traffic ..." "... SBS plans should not require taking away a lane of moving traffic ..." If the goal is to improve the speed of the service, a different colored bus isn't going to be enough, you need dedicated lanes & enforcement to keep cars & trucks out of them. He also blames Robert Moses for Brooklyn's traffic problem, please how long has that man been dead ? Personally I have a problem with SBS/BRT service in NYC, because true BRT service has more then fare payment machines in the street. It also has exclusive ROWs, high platforms, terminals, traffic siginals that see the BRT bus & hold the light for it, etc. SBS in NYC is just a glorified Express/Limited bus. I wrote the article and suggest you reread it, because you have drawn erroneous conclusions. I said that I am not against SBS and I meant it. That is quite different from being against how DOT is implementing it which I am against. I think the SBS on Second Avenue can be improved but am generally for it. What I am against is that the MTA will use its success which has been exaggerated as a reason to justify cancelling the lower half of the Second Avenue Subway which never will be completed. I don't know that much the BX 12 to conclude how well it's working out, but don't think it is much different from the M15. I'm for the M34 proposed SBS with a dedicated lane. I am against the proposed B44, because they chose the wrong route for many reasons. A route similar to the B82 would have been a much better choice. The article primarily focused on taking away a lane of traffic on Woodhaven Boulevard for SBS and I explained my reasons for being against that. That is quite different from saying I do not believe SBS should have exclusive lanes which is what you quote me as saying which I did not say. You say it's to enhance "public service". Nothing is being enhanced if you are not gathering data on the complete picture. Bus speeds only tell part of the story, not the whole story. I am definitely not more concerned about auto traffic than mass transit, but you just can't ignore it, and say it doesn't matter if their trips take 20 minutes longer because it is more worthwhile to save a bus passenger that amount of time or less. That theory might hold if the people in their cars had the choice to switch to the bus. On Woodhaven Boulevard, that choice does not exist for most of the traffic. That was the major point of the article. Then you criticize me for blaming Robert Moses for Brooklyn's traffic problems and question how long he has been dead. It doesn't matter how long he has been dead, because the things he accomplished or failed to accomplish like the Cross-Brooklyn Expressway will affect New York forever. I agree that the scaled-down BRT we have is not as good as a real BRT, but the priority signals supposed to be a feature of New York's SBS. It is a key element and could be done on all major bus routes. You don't need SBS for it. You might need an exclusive bus lane though. Incidentally, we actually met and spoke to each other once about eight years ago. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Jul 6 23:37:48 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 6 23:26:03 2011. I wrote the article and suggest you reread it, because you have drawn erroneous conclusions. IAWTP That is quite different from saying I do not believe SBS should have exclusive lanes which is what you quote me as saying which I did not say. QFT Incidentally, we actually met and spoke to each other once about eight years ago. I'd sure as heck hope that he knew who you were! But the fact that he was talking to you in the third person had me ROFLMAO. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by Mr RT on Thu Jul 7 08:07:11 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 6 23:26:03 2011. BTW, I thought "BrooklynBus" was a colleague of mine who works the trains, but loves buses more.I since a bit of anger in your tone, I hope not, because a stimulating debate can’t happen if both parties are HELLING at each other :-) Point One: I agree that the MTA’s SBS is a scaled down BRT & have thought it a joke as far as what a BRT should be & is in other cities. This is why I likened it to re-branded Express or Limited service, i.e. if you are not going to create a real BRT why bother ? Point Two: Lower half of 2nd Ave Stubway. This could in fact be the MTA’s plan at the highest level. Just looking a history confirms how hard it is for the MTA to make any meaningful extensions to the system. The fact that the Stubway is only two tracks makes it a joke too. Also look at what the “planners” have done to the East Side Access. Somebody should be fired for letting it grow in cost through one change after another. That project is a disgrace ! Point Three: “I am not against SBS and I mean it.” I’m sorry I still don’t believe that in your hart of harts it’s true, e.g. “… (don’t support) taking away a lane … on Woodhave Boulevard …” “… for starters, the bus stops are further apart …” “ BRT/SBS service … mistakenly throttle(s) automobile traffic, thinking this might bolster mass transit useage …” It seems to me that you don’t support any of the BRT features in the SBS (reserved lanes, priority signals, less frequent stops, off-board fare payment) if they are going to interfere in any way with auto TRAFFIC ? That has been the theory of nycDOT, or as I call it the Dept. of Traffic. The policy of nycDOT & MTA should be to find ways to add meaningful public service, e.g. BRT, and if it effects auto traffic, i.e. to discourage it … that is a good thing. You can’t support a BRT from a sky hook so that it doesn’t effect traffic ! Point Four: SBS Bx12 was a no brainer, as it goes along Fordham Road from Co-Op City to Manhattan which is almost a private ROW. Point Five: Robert Moses … I was just pulling your chain on that one, i.e. you are right about a proposed Cross-Brooklyn Expressway … but then we must remember what it cost that neighborhood in the Bronx where the Cross-Bronx Expressway was created :-( P.S. Yesterday I shared a elevator with one of the “suits” who had a lot to do with picking the SBS corridors … I didn’t talk to him about SBS. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Thu Jul 7 09:30:04 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Mr RT on Thu Jul 7 08:07:11 2011. BTW, I thought "BrooklynBus" was a colleague of mine who works the trains, but loves buses more. So you're saying that all these years, you had no idea who BrooklynBus was? |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 7 20:05:12 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Mr RT on Thu Jul 7 08:07:11 2011. Yes, I was a little upset because you twisted what I said and tried to indicate that I wasn't sincere in my statements. That said, it's on to your Point 1:In most cases the right-of-ways we have are not wide enough for BRT so they are scaling it down. Why bother at all? Because it's better than nothing and the Federal government is giving the money away. IF we don't accept, other cities will, and then the MTA would be criticized for not doing it. That's why. Point 2: I actually mentioned East Side Access in the article and criticized why it's taking 50 years to build. I didn't realize that it is due to changes in the Project scope. If the goal, is to provide East Side Access for Long Islanders, that is what they should have done. DC 37 once suggested that they just build a new station to transfer with 33rd Street at like a tenth the cost. But that wouldn't make use of the tunnels completed 30 years ago? Instead they are building a whole new underground city. I mentioned that it is taking almost as long as the third water tunnel. But that entire paragraph was edited out. Point 3: What you say is not true. I support all the BRT features. I just don't think it is wise to eliminate a lane of traffic on Woodhaven Blvd. That street cannot afford the loss of a traffic lane because as I said, an SBS on Woodhaven alone, will not get people out of their cars. It would be a disaster. How much more expensive would it be to reactivate the Rockaway Line instead of SBS on Woodhaven? Point 5: You can't compare the Cross Bronx to a Cross Brooklyn. The Cross Bronx required massive destruction although if Moses altered his route which he was not willing to do, 3,000 fewer families would have to be relocated. In Brooklyn, it would have been built on an existing right-of-way, so there would have been very few relocations. Now, they could use that ROW for a light rail line which could continue as an air train type el along Linden Boulevard in East NY, an industrial street, and continue to Aqueduct and JFK. If not light rail, why not a real BRT line there? Point 6: Back in 2004, I suggested better corridors perhaps to the same "suit" you are referring to. They just chose the corridors they wanted after supposed public input. But they never gave reasons for their choices. They just listened and then said, this is what we picked. That is not community input. They needed to justify their choices. I also told that "suit" that it would be a mistake using two-door artics for SBS, and they should buy three-door artics. The response he gave me was that three-door artics were not structurally strong enough for NYC streets. Back in the 1960s when transit consumer groups were trying to get the MTA to purchase artics, the response was that they would never work on New York City streets. When they were asked to air-condition the IRT, their response was the cars are too small to accommodate air conditioning. When graffiti first began in the late 1960s and when the MTA was questioned around 1970 what they were going to do about it, their response was that it was passing fad and will go away by itself. Do you see a pattern here? I do. They were consistently wrong. We met at a retirement party in Woodside in February, 2003. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 8 00:22:04 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 7 20:05:12 2011. Yes, I was a little upset because you twisted what I said and tried to indicate that I wasn't sincere in my statements. You weren't upset over the fact that he was talking to you in the third person and that he was lecturing you about yourself? We met at a retirement party in Woodside in February, 2003. It's funny how you knew who he was but he had no idea who you were. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Fri Jul 8 16:03:59 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 7 20:05:12 2011. Out of curiosity, what was the route of the Cross-Bronx that would've required 3,000 fewer families to relocate? |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by Mr RT on Fri Jul 8 16:40:19 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 7 20:05:12 2011. OK, I’ glad that you were only a little upset, because I’m enjoying this debate.BTW, anyone else, please feel free to jump in. Let continue by combining point one & three: “…the right-of-ways we have are not wide enough for BRT so they are scaling it down …” In NYC we don’t have any spare land just lying around for us to use for a BRT, So any serious BRT plan is going to effect traffic. If you really believe in the value of adding some BRT to enhance public service then you are going to have to accept that ? Do you see why I'm questioning you sincerity about BRT ? Are there any other options … yes you mentioned a couple: “…reactivate the Rockaway Line instead of SBS on Woodhaven …” Does it go far enough north to be of any value …. Hmmm “…Brooklyn … existing right-of-way …” Are you talking about the LIRR’s Bayridge freight line ? or is it a different freight line in Brooklyn ? BTW, Point 5 from above … I didn’t appreciate the difference between Cross Brooklyn & Cross Bronx … thanks for pointing it out. Point six: “…Federal government is giving the money away …” Yep, they most likely started down this road chasing after the money. “…They just chose the corridors they wanted after supposed public input. But they never gave reasons for their choices …” I wouldn’t be quite that syndical about how they choose the corridors. Granted it’s partly political … choose one in each borough … but where in the borough was given some serious thought, I’m sure of that. Did the public have a lot of say in this … the MTA knows best what you need :-( Point two – off topic – East Side Access: Originally they were going to grab some under utilized tracks in Grand Central … then they decided they wanted their own tracks & needed to go deep to do it. That deepness if driving a lot of the additional cost. There is also their insistence on their own power source because M-N might loose power. Hasn’t happened, but it might. My question for a long time has been who is watching what is going on here, because someone in a high office keeps signing off on the price increases :-( “… We met at a retirement party in Woodside in February, 2003 …” We talked about Teddy when he only had a few employees … I remember. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by Mr RT on Fri Jul 8 16:53:44 2011, in response to What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 5 12:41:06 2011. Come on guys & gals, how about a little input from you ?BRT/SBS could be a acceptable way to enhance public service in NYC if it's not practical to build subway extensions: - Because it cost too much - Because you can't cut & cover any more - Because no body wants an el - Because everybody is a NIMBY, so there is no where you can build it, but you will also get critizied for not expanding the system. - Because the current leaders in Albany/Gracy Mansion have decided if it can't be done in their administration, why bother. What do you see as the difference between a BRT(SBS) vs. a Express bus or a Limited bus ? What value should it have to the potential customer. What cost should they be willing to pay for it ? Remember Express service is a big money looser, so why create some special service that is going to have to be subsidised in a big way ? |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 8 17:37:28 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 8 00:22:04 2011. No I wasn't upset he was talking to me in the third person. And I wasn't surprised he didn't remember me. It was a long time ago and we only spoke for 5 or 10 minutes. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 8 17:41:32 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Fri Jul 8 16:03:59 2011. Across the northern portion of Crotona Park and I think it actually was a straighter route, but Moses wouldn't hear of it. It was in Caro's book. I think it also said something about a friend of his having to relocate his business if it took that route, so it was better to play havoc with 3,000 families he didn't know. I remember it because it would have passed right in front of where my aunt used to live. The route they chose instead ended up passing right in front of another aunt's house. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by B49 Limited on Fri Jul 8 18:01:13 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 7 20:05:12 2011. Brooklynbus or anyone on here can answer this:Since you mention the former LIRR Rockaway line: Does anyone know why MTA, the city, or even a private company invest or reinvest the former Rockaway or Bay Ridge lines into light rail or heavy rail service? |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 8 18:02:00 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Mr RT on Fri Jul 8 16:40:19 2011. Yes, BRT is going to affect traffic but I don't see why they can't use the parking lane without taking a lane of traffic. That was their original plan. They were only supposed to take a traffic lane in a few instances when there was no other choice. Now they seem to use the parking lane just to build out the bus station and insist on using a traffic lane even where it isn't justified. They have also presented conflicting info. On Nostrand Avenue below Avenue X the exclusive lane for buses is either 24 hours, only between 7 and 10 AM and 4 to 7 PM or only the morning rush hour depending on which document or presentation you look at. They don't even know themselves what they want.Yes I am talking about the LIRR freight line, perfect for BRT or Light Rail. Rockaway Line -- See http://www.rockawaybeachline.org/ I haven't really been following East Side Access but I agree that no one seems to be watching. While the SAS gets plenty of news coverage and even the #7 extension, no one talks about East Side Access. Funny you remember what we talked about in 2003, and all I remember is the book of tokens you gave Tony. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 8 18:16:29 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Mr RT on Fri Jul 8 16:53:44 2011. As you stated there is a real difference between a real BRT and the MTA's SBS. No one is proposing real BRT anywhere in NYC.You really can't compare SBS with building a subway because of the difference in capacity. It also isn't as easy to build SBS as you make it seem. Look it's taking three years of meetings with the NIMBY's and the Queens SBS in southeast Queens was cancelled. You also can't compare Express buses and SBS. One takes people directly into Manhattan and with the other they must transfer to a subway. SBS is flashy. I don't think that flashy is necessarily better. Many normal bus changes could be made that would increase subway usage and reduce the need for express buses. The most notable example is to extend the B9 along Shore Road to 101 Street. The B16 should be truncated at 4th Avenue and 86th Street. Some B1s could replace it along 86th Street. People who currently use express buses along Shore Road would have a local bus to the N express stop at 59th Street instead of taking a local bus to the R and having to change again at 59th Street, a major inconvenience especially with the poor headways and slowness of the R train. They would save at least 15 minutes, perhaps enough to be competitive with the express bus, enough to reduce service and operating costs. The problem is the at the MTA refuses to add any mileage to any local route, no matter how beneficial it would be. Their policy is if they add mileage, they must make a service cut elsewhere. Totally ridiculous. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 8 20:02:56 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 8 18:02:00 2011. Funny you remember what we talked about in 2003, and all I remember is the book of tokens you gave Tony. But he didn't remember you. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 8 20:05:44 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Mr RT on Fri Jul 8 16:53:44 2011. Come on guys & gals, how about a little input from you ? Come on Mr RT, why did you talk to him in the 'third person'? And why did you tell him about himself? |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 8 20:08:27 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 8 17:37:28 2011. But many other people here know who you are. And he specifically should have known! |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by (4) Lexington Av Exp on Fri Jul 8 20:17:29 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 8 18:16:29 2011. Their policy is if they add mileage, they must make a service cut elsewhere. Totally ridiculous.Same argument is valid for the subways. Like when the 5 train was extended into Brooklyn middays, 4 train headways were increased. Back to buses, headways are piss poor on the Bx12 SBS, especially in the PM rush. 6 minute headways at 5pm just doesnt cut it. And the 4 minute and 7.5 minute headways during the AM rush and midday respectively only work when *everything* is working properly. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by dkupf on Fri Jul 8 20:38:10 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 8 17:41:32 2011. Plus, according to the book, the Crotona Park route would have went through the Third Ave Railway's West Farms trolley barn, located at the northeast corner of the park (now part of the park itself). Some politians had stock in the Third Ave Railway; whatever the Third Ave Railway wanted, the Third Ave Railway got. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by dkupf on Fri Jul 8 21:02:22 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 8 18:16:29 2011. "Their policy is if they add mileage, they must make a service cut elsewhere. Totally ridiculous."I wholeheartedly agree. It is ridiculous. But since this has been coming from the MTA's spokespeople, that bastard Tom Prendergast must have given this directive. Or, at least, publically acknowedges it with prejudice. This is proof that he treats staff like mules, and the riding public like cattle. No wonder why the people hated him when he was LIRR President, and was forced out. But I wish to go all-out. Since Prendergast has given the service planners the green light to do whatever the hell they want, we must also force out those that refuse to do their duty as "public servants". |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Jul 8 21:08:40 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by dkupf on Fri Jul 8 21:02:22 2011. Is Helena Williams a better president of LIRR than Prendergast was? |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Fri Jul 8 21:53:36 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Mr RT on Fri Jul 8 16:53:44 2011. +SBS+ doesn't lose money the way express buses do. The routes that would receive/already have +SBS+ service are very cost-efficient: With a cost per passenger of less than $1.50 (except for the S79), and a farebox recovery ratio of over 75%. With the faster service cutting down on costs, the farebox recovery ratio should increase even further.By comparison, the average NYCT express route has roughly a 50% farebox recovery ratio. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by Mr RT on Fri Jul 8 22:33:31 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by (4) Lexington Av Exp on Fri Jul 8 20:17:29 2011. A senior "suit" in a meeting I attended mentioned that he was almost late getting to 2 Broadway because of the headway on a downtown bus, i.e. it was suppose to be 7 minutes, but he waited about 1/2 hour.The othewrs in the room laughed. A story I love to tell from several years ago ... I was a bit late to a meeting at nycDOT in the old Coast Guard building & said it was because I was waiting for a "slant" ... no one in the room knew what I was talking about. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by Mr RT on Fri Jul 8 22:37:13 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Fri Jul 8 21:53:36 2011. Point taken ... the SBS carrys folks in both directions, unlike the Express bus. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by R30A on Sat Jul 9 00:09:49 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Fri Jul 8 21:53:36 2011. Average?no. The BEST one comes close to a 50% recovery, but the average is below 25% iirc. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Jul 9 00:20:30 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by R30A on Sat Jul 9 00:09:49 2011. On the weekdays (prior to the service reductions. Now it's probably higher), the average express route cost $8.64 per passenger and had an average fare of $4.22, which is 48.8%. The cheapest one was the X27/X37 at $6.42 per passenger (65.7% farebox recovery).For the MTA Bus routes, the average weekday cost was $9.72, with an average fare of $4.18, which is 43%. By comparison, the average local route had a weekday farebox recovery ratio of 79.2% for NYCT and 81.5% for MTA Bus. Again, keep in mind that this was before the service reductions. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Jul 9 00:21:29 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by R30A on Sat Jul 9 00:09:49 2011. If you want to consider total costs, however, the average express route is around 25% farebox recovery ratio, with the average local route being something like 45%. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by R30A on Sat Jul 9 00:23:40 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Jul 9 00:20:30 2011. You have a link for that? The numbers I found at the time were very different... |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by R30A on Sat Jul 9 00:24:13 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Jul 9 00:21:29 2011. Yes, that is exactly as I recall it. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Jul 9 01:26:05 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by R30A on Sat Jul 9 00:23:40 2011. https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Aha-LfXMlWNBdHd4QkhLRF92cURWNWdSbzNfSjJwWWc&hl=en#gid=2 (MTA Bus)https://spreadsheets0.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=tjeLbTVohgnCOrKEdco6dOg#gid=1 (NYCT Bus) |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Sat Jul 9 04:52:46 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by (4) Lexington Av Exp on Fri Jul 8 20:17:29 2011. (5) train headways were also decreased in that change. This evened the headways. (2),(3),(4),(5) all now run 8 minute midday headways. Before the (4) ran around 5 minute headways while the (5) would run 10 minute midday headways. There are less total trains on Lexington Av during middays, though now the (4)/(5), (6)/<6> each have the same combined headways 4 minutes. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Jul 9 05:01:46 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 8 18:02:00 2011. Yes I am talking about the LIRR freight line, perfect for BRT or Light Rail. Rockaway Line -- See http://www.rockawaybeachline.org/That's a much worse location than the median of Woodhaven Blvd for BRT/LRT. For starters, it misses the J/Z at Woodhaven Blvd and the A at Rockaway Blvd. The Rockaway Line is essentially useless for transit, although if what you are saying about traffic is correct, converting it into a semi-grade-separated highway might well be a good idea. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Jul 9 05:08:39 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Mr RT on Fri Jul 8 22:37:13 2011. And more important than that, each seat gets used multiple times on each run. |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Jul 9 05:43:30 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Jul 9 00:20:30 2011. By comparison, the average local route had a weekday farebox recovery ratio of 79.2% for NYCT and 81.5% for MTA Bus.The really shocking bit was that these routes were losing money:
These routes — often high-ridership ones — should all have been making a small profit. If they had, the local buses system-wide would not have been losing money. They were the financial black hole, however fun it was to laugh at the S60 and the Q79. The express beese and the railroads are a different problem. With the local buses, it was clearly a case for a fare hike (and generally not service cuts); this isn't true for systems with high fares and nowhere near 100% farebox recovery. |
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Posted by B49 Limited on Sat Jul 9 09:47:15 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Jul 9 05:43:30 2011. Routes are losing money like the B 41 because every bus that serve this route (in a day) do not fill up to make a recovery. We have heard the story before, a pax sees a crowded bus with the seat fill and SRO half way and demand more buses. Those additional buses however don't reach SRO levels and that is where the loss comes from. Also fare invasion... for every person who don't pay the fare by going thru the backdoor or my favorite begging the B/O to let them ride because of whatever excuse, we lose money from that thus fare recovery becomes difficultRoutes like the B 49 are loosing money for 2 reasons: 1) B 49 is a seasonal route. When school/ KCC in session, especially in the AM rush, the B 49 and B 49 limited is SRO by the time the bus reaches Ocean Av/Foster Av. However in the summertime, both routes are halfway empty. Another issue that route loses money is that there are indicators that the route needs modernization. The B49 currently should be an extended B 48 (Bedford/Rogers) and a new B 49 rerouted along Ocean Av. If you look at the ridership flow of this route, it is obvious. At any given day or time the B 49 pax goes as far as Flatbush Av (90%). Then it gets its new pax in either Manhattan Beach or Bed - Stuy along Foster Av. The biggest fear for the B 49 is would SBS B 44 have an impact the route North of Foster Av. MTA are not paying attention to those indicators and assume it should be a service cut or hike then to really investigate the route, talk to the B/O, and the public and find out what is best for the route. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Jul 9 10:25:08 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by B49 Limited on Sat Jul 9 09:47:15 2011. The question you have to ask yourself is if it's possible for any local route to make money? Thirty-five years ago, I was told that for a route to break even, it had to always have a seated load in both directions at all times with an average trip length of 2.5 miles per passenger. That means if there is peak directional travel, every time a bus is carrying 5 passengers another one going the other way has to at least be carrying 75 to make up for it. Also if two buses are bunched and one is carrying 70 and the other 10, that still averages out to only a seated load. You also have to consider that most routes are light near their end points and overnight buses are nearly empty. Also, today there are fewer seats and operating costs are higher although the fare is also higher. So the question is today, what is the average load you need to break even. If it is something like 60 passengers on every bus at all times, that is not possible to attain during the best of circumstances. You also have to factor in the artics which have a higher capacity. |
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Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Jul 9 12:41:59 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by B49 Limited on Sat Jul 9 09:47:15 2011. No, you're missing the wood for the trees. You could make similar excessively detailed statements about ridership patterns on these routes:
Except those ones made an operating profit. There's nothing wrong with the ridership or utilization of either group of routes, nor do either seem to have a particularly significant rate of fare evasion. It's just that the MTA let the fare get so low in proportion to bus operators' wages that a whole bunch of routes that should have been making an operating profit instead ended up making a loss and destroying the funding for routes that could only be justified in terms of network coverage (such as the Q79). The whole financial crisis and service cuts mess on the local buses was avoidable and unnecessary, had the MTA only ensured that the average fare kept up with their operating costs. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Sat Jul 9 13:25:14 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Jul 9 10:25:08 2011. In Nassau County, there is one route that makes money: the N40/1. If the MTA had not kept fares as low as they are (ideally, they should be at least $2.50 local and $7.50 express with a $.50 and $1 (respectively) peak differential), perhaps the service cuts would not have been as severe. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Jul 9 14:26:11 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Jul 9 05:01:46 2011. You misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about the LIRR freight line for BRT as an alternative to Woodhaven Blvd, just saying it would be a good corridor.Also, there is no median on Woodhaven, so I don't know what you mean that you could use it for BRT/LRT. I also don't understand why you think the Rockaway Line is useless for transit. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Jul 9 15:55:51 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Jul 9 14:26:11 2011. He's saying that it would be hard to make the connections to the other subway lines. IIRC, the row is around 100th Street, so it would be hard to connect to the Rockaway Blvd (A) station and the Woodhaven Blvd (J)(Z) station (though it could be connected to the 104th Street station).Still, it would meet the goal of providing a crosstown service in that area, and it would most likely be easier to build than a line on Woodhaven Blvd, as the ROW is already there and wouldn't require taking space from cars. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Jul 9 16:12:11 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by AMoreira81 on Sat Jul 9 13:25:14 2011. You have to consider the problem with express service is that the service levels are VERY peaked. There are a lot of rush hour, peak direction-only routes, and a lot of routes have much higher headways off-peak than during rush hour (look at the X17: Each variant runs every 6-8 minutes, but the midday headway is every 30 minutes). Between the costs of deadheading and the costs of the extra service during rush hour, it is easy to see why service is actually cheaper to run on the weekends.It would be nice if the City of NY gave the MTA the subsidies directly instead of reimbursing them for their losses in operating the MTA Bus routes. That way, the MTA would have an incentive to reduce service on the MTA Bus routes that are underperforming (like the BM4 and QM4 off-peak and the QM15 on the weekends). This would hopefully limit the impact of the next fare hike. During the next fare hike (of course, this depends on how much money the MTA needs to raise), I would raise the peak fare to $6.50, but cut the off-peak (and maybe even the reverse-peak) fare down to $5. The local bus/subway fare would probably increase to $2.50, so this would make the express bus a more attractive option off-peak, which would most likely result in an increase in revenue overall, as riders decide to take the express bus during the time period when it is the least expensive to run. This might even provide the justification for increases such as off-peak X22 service and Sunday X17 service (both starting out at 60 minute headways) |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Jul 9 16:24:09 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Jul 9 12:41:59 2011. I have to admit, I would prefer service reductions to a fare hike, if the service cuts were done correctly. The MTA should've taken this opportunity to not only rid themselves of routes that were (relatively) unnecessary, but tried to find ways to alter existing routes to attract more ridership. For example, in the Bay Ridge area, it would make more sense to have a through-Bay Ridge Avenue route (an extended B31). The B64 could maintain its easier connection to the (R) and the SI routes by keeping its former route via 86th Street (it would also make it easier for former X28 riders who lost their weekend service).In addition, the MTA should've tried to save some money by reducing the number of deadheads to make the regular buses flow more smoothly. As BrooklynBus said, it makes no sense for buses to run out of service when the regular buses are slowed down trying to squeeze more people onto the bus, and then are flagging people because there is no more room. And of course, there are lines that I feel run too frequently. One example is the S44/S59/S89/S94 during rush hours. Out of all of those buses, say one will be mostly full, one will have a seated load, and one will be almost empty. For starters, I think the S59 should be reduced to run every 20 minutes all day. |
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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Jul 9 18:55:47 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Jul 9 16:24:09 2011. Bay Ridge Avenue is not suitable for bus service east of 13th Avenue. It is a narrow one-way residential street. Of course it could be paired with a parallel street like 49th 50th Street, but a more optimal route like I once proposed was to have it turn up to 65th Street and run along 65th Street and Avenue P. I proposed it to be combined with the B2. You say the B31. Either one would be good. But the MTA insists that 60th Street and 65th Street are just too close for bus routes. They can't see that the routes diverge at both ends. Even if that is their concern, then the bus could make only limited stops along 65th Street like every second or third avenue so it would be fast. Of course that is a departure from present policy which is a no no. |
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