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Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sun Jul 10 00:46:19 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Jul 9 18:55:47 2011. I was thinking the B31 because I would rather see the B2 combined with the B100. I think it would be beneficial to the Marine Park area to have 1 frequent bus on a street than 2 less frequent buses on seperate streets.If you think about it, once the B64 turns onto 13th Avenue, there is a gap in crosstown service. The distance from Bay Ridge Parkway to 60th Street is 3/4 of a mile, meaning that riders between 65th Street and 70th Street are over 1/4 of a mile from an east-west route. But of course, like you said, the MTA uses guidelines as an excuse to reduce service, not to add service. |
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Posted by dkupf on Sun Jul 10 02:25:52 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Fri Jul 8 21:08:40 2011. I have neither good nor bad opinions about her. |
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Posted by dkupf on Sun Jul 10 02:29:50 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Jul 9 15:55:51 2011. No, the "Rockaway Cutoff" route is needed in order to provide one-seat service between JFK and Manhattan. |
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Posted by dkupf on Sun Jul 10 02:32:06 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by TheGreatOne2k9 on Sat Jul 9 04:52:46 2011. Yes, because the off-peak loading guideline is 125% seated load. |
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Posted by dkupf on Sun Jul 10 02:40:14 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sun Jul 10 00:46:19 2011. Which is why the "service planners" should either be reducated or fired. |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Sun Jul 10 09:52:41 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by dkupf on Sun Jul 10 02:40:14 2011. They are not the ones to blame. They are just taking orders from Budget. They are the onew who need re-educating. I was just talking to a friend yesterday who is pissed why LIRR tickets now expire in 2 weeks instead of 6 months. They did it to screw hundreds or thousands of people who don't read the fine print out of tickets they already paid for. One person on TV was out $455.00. I think they made a one time exception for him because of the bad publicity.What my friend wanted to know was how the MTA made money on this. Sure they made thousnds in the short term, but screwed themselves in the long term. My friend told me he always used to have a dozen for more tickets he would buy and not use for months, thereby giving the MTA an interest free loan on the money. Now he only buys tickets as he needs them. It's this type of shortsighted planning that crews the MTA. |
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Posted by hank eisenstein on Sun Jul 10 23:12:29 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Jul 9 16:12:11 2011. The Saturday x17 is barely half-full most of the time. |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Sun Jul 10 23:18:13 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by hank eisenstein on Sun Jul 10 23:12:29 2011. Why then is the X17 not reduced to bi-hourly if the service is warranted? |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Jul 10 23:36:45 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Jul 9 10:25:08 2011. Then how do Greyhound buses turn a profit? |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Jul 10 23:41:14 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Sat Jul 9 16:24:09 2011. The S59 does run every 20 minutes, and the S44 suffers from uneven passenger loads with the diving point being Forest Avenue, it's why I think it should be swapped with the S46. |
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Posted by LRG5784 on Sun Jul 10 23:46:57 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Jul 10 23:41:14 2011. At some part of the day on weekends the S59 operates every 15 minutes. |
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Posted by hank eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 00:12:28 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by AMoreira81 on Sun Jul 10 23:18:13 2011. Because 30 people is still demand for service. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Jul 11 06:30:15 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Mr RT on Fri Jul 8 22:33:31 2011. A story I love to tell from several years ago ... I was a bit late to a meeting at nycDOT in the old Coast Guard building & said it was because I was waiting for a "slant" ... no one in the room knew what I was talking about. Did they think you were stupid? And what does that story have to do with anything? |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Jul 11 06:35:39 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Jul 10 23:36:45 2011. LOL! |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Jul 11 06:37:02 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Terrapin Station on Fri Jul 8 20:05:44 2011. Come on Mr RT, why did you talk to him in the 'third person'? And why did you tell him about himself? bump |
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Posted by Mr RT on Mon Jul 11 08:19:52 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Sat Jul 9 05:08:39 2011. Also true ... |
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Posted by Mr RT on Mon Jul 11 08:36:58 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Jul 9 10:25:08 2011. The problem is in the mind set of the folks in the bus division.Our bus system is not run by a private firm. Most of the management came up thru the ranks, as did the current & past chief officer (Irick/Smith) both were drivers & both worked for Transit vs. "privates" before MTA Bus take over. So, they think service vs. cost. If a rush hour bus is always full, add a piece of the route, or add another bus. Nassau County is an extreem example where they filled the map in Eastern Nassau but carry hardly any passengers there. Now, lets take a step back & ask the question ... what should the primary mission be for the bus division ... service or with a goal of to operate at a break even or profit ? If you look at the Express service, you may conclude it is service. Note the above has very little to do with BRT/SBS .... |
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Posted by Mr RT on Mon Jul 11 08:55:31 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by dkupf on Sun Jul 10 02:29:50 2011. It would seem to be a better subway vs. bus line.For one thing it's elevated that makes it a problem (inconvient) for frequent stops & pick ups from the street (I'm not just talking about eldery/disabled) |
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Posted by brightonr68 on Mon Jul 11 10:10:20 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Jul 9 10:25:08 2011. "The question you have to ask yourself is if it's possible for any local route to make money? "Yes but minor changes need to be made 1) GPS bus monitoring needs to be deployed to keep buses on time. On some lined such as the B3 and b36 fewer buses could provide better services then what is currently on the line. Less frequent service on paper but more reliable on time service in reality 2) we need more fare enforcement officer on buses. too many people beating the fare and those people damage buses and encourage people to driver vs taking the bus. If you remove conductors from trains and close token booths and reassign workers(or the money spent on those workers) into fare enforcement you can bring in more money |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Mon Jul 11 10:53:10 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by hank eisenstein on Sun Jul 10 23:12:29 2011. In the peak direction, the buses are mostly full. In the reverse-peak direction, the buses are mostly empty. Apparently, the peak buses are fuller than we thought, since the MTA is increasing the frequencies in September. |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Mon Jul 11 10:55:32 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by brightonr68 on Mon Jul 11 10:10:20 2011. I don't think farebeaters really cause that much actual damage to the buses. Some cause other problems, but not damage. |
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Posted by Mr RT on Mon Jul 11 11:10:58 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Mon Jul 11 10:55:32 2011. No, you are wrong about that ... I've seen some reports of damage from it. |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jul 11 20:37:41 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Mr RT on Mon Jul 11 08:55:31 2011. Don't all new stations have to be handicapped accessible anyway which would mean that all stations would have to have elevators? Shouldn't that eliminate that problem? If you are talking about its use as a subway /light rail vs BRT, BRT stops would also be placed a half-mile apart, not every block or every other block. |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jul 11 20:39:42 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Jul 11 06:30:15 2011. Why would they assume he was stupid just because they didn't know what he was talking about? Maybe his comment wasn't relative, but yours wasn't either. |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jul 11 20:53:32 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Mr RT on Mon Jul 11 08:36:58 2011. The problem is not in the mindset of the folks in the bus division as you state. They view their role as keeping the buses on schedule, etc. The problem is in the minds of the budget people and Operations Planning who get their marching orders from them. Those folks are not part of the bus division, but the Bus Division must live by the rules OP sets.When I was head of Bus Planning or should I say Surface Planning back in 1981, it was Bus Transportation who called the shots because there was no consolidated Operations Planning for Buses and Subways. That was created in July, 1981. Bus Transportation wanted everything to remain status quo. I was not able to get them to increase or even decrease service where I thought there was too much service provided. The only changes they would make were if a safety issue was involved. Period. Now their goal is purely to reduce service. Strengthen strong bus routes so the weaker ones could be eliminated. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. Their goal should be to better connect neighborhoods by increasing options within available costs. They should seek to strengthen weak routes by determining why there is little demand for them and perhaps lengthen them to increase connections to make them more attractive, not to reduce service to kill them off. How could their primary mission be to break even if all bus routes perhaps one or two operate at a loss? If they eliminate all routes operating at a loss, there would be no bus system left. |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jul 11 21:01:50 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by brightonr68 on Mon Jul 11 10:10:20 2011. Regarding the B36, probably one-third or more of B36 riders use the route between Sheepshead Bay Station and Avenue U. The MTA used to run rush hour specials on just this part of the route. They provided a reliable service and always left the Station at capacity (75 people per bus) during the PM. There was usually a bus waiting at the Station when you got off the subway. People would see it and get on. Very efficient.The MTA through its convoluted logic decides about 10 years ago or so to eliminate this service. Now, you could wait 10 or 15 minutes for a bus. So now you either call your spouse to have them pick you up, or hop into an illegal car service which has 10 cars waiting. The next time the MTA checks B36 ridership they find ridership has decreased by perhaps 15% so they cut service further to ensure longer lines waiting and a greater demand for car services, since once you leave the bus system they no longer consider you part of demand. I agree with you about GPS but doubt that it will ever expand to past the B63. |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon Jul 11 21:06:47 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jul 11 21:01:50 2011. an excellent way to kill off a route..the same way they killed of some subway routes. |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Jul 11 21:21:51 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Jul 10 23:36:45 2011. Anyone? He talked about local routes but I'm wondering about long distance routes. |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Mon Jul 11 21:27:53 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Osmosis Jones on Sun Jul 10 23:41:14 2011. Not all day. During rush hours, it runs every 15 minutes. Ridership varies based on the timing of the buses (whether the S44 or S59 comes first), but on average, there are a few standees on each northbound bus, and on the southbound buses, you'll see one bus with around 6-8 standees, one bus with a seated load, and one almost empty (generally, the S94 is the one with the seated load, and the S59/S89 vary as far as which will have the standees).In the later evening (past, say 6:00PM leaving from Bayonne), I think 13 minutes is too frequent for the S89. The headways should be closer to every 20 minutes, and it should serve 8th Street rather than 34th Street. I also had a plan for an S82 route that would take some of the s89's buses and travel along Richmond Avenue, the SIE service road, South Avenue, and the West Shore Expressway, making limited stops in those areas. |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Mon Jul 11 21:28:45 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jul 11 20:39:42 2011. Just ignore him. |
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Posted by hank eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 21:50:03 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Mon Jul 11 21:27:53 2011. Serving who? |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Jul 11 23:42:31 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jul 11 20:39:42 2011. Why would they assume he was stupid just because they didn't know what he was talking about? Because professionals don't make such comments amongst such company. Maybe his comment wasn't relative, but yours wasn't either. My comment wasn't what?? |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Jul 11 23:43:51 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Jul 11 21:21:51 2011. LOL! |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Jul 12 00:05:32 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jul 11 21:01:50 2011. The B36 has been a Top 50 route for years, and will be for several more years. |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Jul 12 00:18:59 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Sat Jul 9 10:25:08 2011. The B74 makes money, not sure about the B42 though. |
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Posted by dkupf on Tue Jul 12 01:51:21 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jul 11 20:53:32 2011. Which is why, IMO, SEPTA's and the TTC's service planners are far superior than the lousy, incompetent and/or ignorant ones at NYCT. |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 12 02:03:17 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by dkupf on Tue Jul 12 01:51:21 2011. David do you know if the off-peak bus service guidelines were increased from 100% to 125% like the subway guidelines? |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Jul 12 03:28:36 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Mon Jul 11 21:27:53 2011. really nowhere to park on 8th st for buses..guess thats why they havent moved out of the parking lot at 34th st.. |
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Posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Jul 12 04:44:32 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Osmosis Jones on Mon Jul 11 21:21:51 2011. Oh well, I guess no one knows. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Tue Jul 12 06:30:47 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Jul 12 04:44:32 2011. LOL! |
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Posted by Mr RT on Tue Jul 12 07:01:27 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jul 11 20:53:32 2011. You may be in a better place then me to know what is going on, but I would hope your cynical view of the "planning" group isn't 100% correct :-(I do remember some "cutting & pasting" of MTA Bus routes when the "privates" were taken over. |
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Posted by Mr RT on Tue Jul 12 07:32:21 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jul 11 20:37:41 2011. I've been giving the use of that line some thought & even got out a 1969 street map to help me to better see its' proximity to Woodhaven Blvd.I've concluded that it has a poor point to point value vs. putting a Limited or SBS on the Blvd. In addition that RxR line would have more value being turned into a subway connector between the Rockaway "A" line and the Queens Blvd. E/F line, i.e. it ends a Whitepoint, about 4 to 5 blocks from the Blvd. Off-Topic: In regard to those who say it should be a JFK to La Guardia or JFK to Manhattan connector, I say nope ... use the AirTrain line & add a little track just before Jamaica. I would suggest using the NY-Ct connecting RxR north of where the LIRR goes over it. |
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Posted by Mr RT on Tue Jul 12 07:35:26 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Mon Jul 11 21:28:45 2011. I'm just letting that crank call ring & ring ! |
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Posted by Mr RT on Tue Jul 12 07:57:54 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 8 18:16:29 2011. I haven't replyed to your remarks here earlier because I wanted to do a little research. Even with this I will freely admit I'm not to farmiliar with the TRAFFIC in Brooklyn, i.e. Bayridge/Shore Road.First I don't see a B82 on the Brooklyn Bus map ? Second B9 & B16 ... Bayridge to Flatbush Ave (2/5 subway) and Bayridge to Prospect Park (B/Q subway) respectively. Plus B1 Bayridge to Brighten Beach. I get the feeling you are saying that improved service on these three, "... save at least 15 minutes ...", could make a case for eliminating the Express service there (X27 & X28). That is a big stretch to think that 15 minutes saved going East to catch a subway is going to be able to replace a one seat ride to Manhattan, but it bears further thought since Express service is a big money looser. Now how about a new topic ... use the Bayridge RxR line as a Brooklyn-Queens cross town bus line ? It gose from the Hudson River all the way to Fresh Pond, and is at least wide enough for 2 or 3 lanes. I wouldn't go any further North then the NY & Atlantic yard at Fresh Pond, because they need that CP/P&W/CSX connection. This would also mean the cross harbor rail traffic would go away. |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Jul 12 10:38:17 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Edwards! on Tue Jul 12 03:28:36 2011. I could've sworn there was a small parking lot there. In any case, would it be that bad to layover on the street? |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Jul 12 10:40:32 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by hank eisenstein on Mon Jul 11 21:50:03 2011. Judging by the decent number of people getting on the S89 at the ETC, I would say that there are potential riders who would board it at the Pleasant Plains Park-and-Ride. In addition, it would provide direct service between the North Shore and South Shore via the WSE, and would also provide service along the SIE service road, which I've always said was an issue (I still think the S93 should be extended to Arlington to serve it) |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Jul 12 10:41:49 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Osmosis Jones on Tue Jul 12 00:18:59 2011. The cost per rider is about $1.42, so it comes close, but doesn't make money. |
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Posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Jul 12 10:43:11 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 12 02:03:17 2011. I don't think so, since in the last document from the board meeting, they were increasing service on routes over 100% of a seated load. They wouldn't do that if the guidelines were 125%. |
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Posted by brightonr68 on Tue Jul 12 11:15:51 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by Mr RT on Tue Jul 12 07:57:54 2011. "I get the feeling you are saying that improved service on these three, "... save at least 15 minutes ...", could make a case for eliminating the Express service there (X27 & X28). That is a big stretch to think that 15 minutes saved going East to catch a subway is going to be able to replace a one seat ride to Manhattan, but it bears further thought since Express service is a big money looser."He is correct . The issue in Bay ridge is that riders have to take a unreliable bus ride to a slow local train "r" that does not come as often as riders need during rush hour. If they choose to transfer at 59th street for the N express the train has no seats. IF you factor in unreliable headways you are talking about major headaches . People just rather pay the extra price for the express bus which we all know is a major money looser for the mta. A more radical solution would be to offer 1) subway shuttles to the local "r" station stop. during rush hour only. 2) Run N trains out of CI with the last car locked out until 59th street station to allow r riders an empty train car with a seat for the transfer of Bay Ridge R riders onto the N. A barrier could be constructed at 59th street station to allow this service. As a former two fare zone rider, the two biggest issues are 1) Reliable quick bus to and from the subway. I would walk 3 blocks to the B2 vs the B3 . the B2 ran at a longer but reliable headway. You could wait 30 min plus the B3 to have the first 2 come in packed and then many local stops. 2) A chance for a seat on the train because you have a long ride, especially in the morning. Currently there is little chance of a seat on the n at 59th street. If you want to move some of these express bus riders off the costly express buses back onto the subway you need to find a way to make these things happen. It is the same chicken or egg situation that exists on the west end line In bay ridge ridership is too loo to support more train service but the reason is the slow train service and hassle and not low potential rush hour ridership. Bay ridge riders use the train as a commuter tool and not lifeline transportation as many bay ridge residents own cars. These changes would need to be peak rush hour only. Along the west end line many riders along cropsy ave take express buses rather than the hassle of bus to train to slow local west end service. Their is enough ridership for west end express service (stillwell, bay 50th, 25th ave, bay parkway, 62nd street, 9th ave then 4th ave express) Once again the solution is Former M express service on the west end is not a goods comparison as the M did not go where people wanted to go and riders needed to change trains and not get a seat on the second train thus low ridership. This would also increase housing development and prices in the area helping mta real estate transfer tax monies 1) short turn subway shuttles run along cropsy ave to bay parkway train station (or maybe turning at 75th street and bay parkway) This give a more reliable quicker bus experience. 2) West end express service into manhattan running one additional train per hour during rush hour and diverting some current d train service onto the express track. |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Jul 12 11:29:02 2011, in response to Re: What is wrong with Select Bus Service, posted by checkmatechamp13 on Tue Jul 12 10:38:17 2011. Right..it IS small..not large enough for transit use..The mini mall Dunkin Doughnut might take exception..the 711.. Perhaps further up the street..but then why move at all when its perfectly situated where it is at the PARK N RIDE LOT? |
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