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| Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 (983169) | |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by arnine on Sun Sep 26 16:51:37 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Randyo on Sun Sep 26 16:42:15 2010. Do not forget Randyo that prior cars to the M1/2/3/4/6 had the half cabs, whereas the M7/8 and most likely 9s can be full width or half cabs when not in use. SEPTA could have done the same as MNR/LIRR did with the M7/8/9.Cars prior to SLVs had full width so the engineers had them and now it is being taken away with no input. As KP said if SEPTA gave them input things may not be so tense. Whereas you were ok w/ the half cabs others may not be, but you I presume started that way. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Randyo on Sun Sep 26 16:54:52 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by arnine on Sun Sep 26 16:51:37 2010. Correct, but as I mentioned in my post, IRT M/M must have had the same issue when going from the full width Gibbs cars the the Deck roof and subsequent cars with the corner cabs. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Sep 26 16:55:13 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Randyo on Sun Sep 26 16:51:26 2010. The bulkhead window is required to allow passengers to see the passenger information screen integrated into the car end wall above the foamer window. That screen is (IIRC) an LCD, and will be viewed from a large enough angle by passengers throughout the car that a polarized window (as on the NTTs) in the bulkhead would render it completely useless. It's bad enough standees will lose their view of the train's destination with the crew lounge bulkhead, but polarized glass would deny the view to everyone except those directly in line with where the polarization permitted light to pass. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Randyo on Sun Sep 26 16:59:58 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by WillD on Sun Sep 26 16:55:13 2010. So that would mean that if SEPTA were to cave and go with full cabs, the bulkhead window would not only have the be there but covering it over by engineers a la NYCT T/Os on the R-46s would have to be STRICTLY forbidden. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by arnine on Sun Sep 26 17:02:38 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Randyo on Sun Sep 26 16:54:52 2010. Yes, sorry meant to agree with you there. I think KP said it right that some input would have gone a long way. Maybe, their engineers would have suggested the convertible cab idea and maybe there wouldn't be the tension there is. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by TRANSIT JEFF on Sun Sep 26 17:03:12 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Randyo on Sun Sep 26 16:59:58 2010. Oh STRICTLY forbidden. Thank you...I needed that laugh........ |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Sep 26 17:08:41 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by arnine on Sun Sep 26 13:08:00 2010. It should be a convertible cab like MNR & LIRR has. The engineer's should have a full cab IMHO. But, when a cab is not in use it should be a 1/2 cab just like MNR & LIRR.IINM you're looking at a convertible cab in Mr. Painter's photos. I'm pretty sure the door likely turns 180 degrees and can function as both a bulkhead door when occupied by an engineer, and as a cab door allowing access to those two seats but closing off the cab itself when that cab is unoccupied. This is exactly how the BSS car's cabs are designed, and that exact description appeared in the technical specification before the cars were ordered. You're not telling SEPTA anything they don't already know, they're just not foolish enough to provide their crews with another place to shirk their responsibilities. Then the train loses only 2 seats per train no big deal. If you look at the photos one row of three abreast seating is sacrificed, another three abreast row is converted to two abreast kneeknocker seating, and the front two seats are isolated. That means five seats are removed when a full-width cab is being operated, and two additional seats are rendered virtually useless by virtue of their being kneeknocker seats. Even with fully convertible cabs only occupying the ends of the train that means somewhere between 10 and 14 seats will be rendered useless by the full width cabs. On the 3 car trains that make up the majority of SEPTA's operations, that represents about 5% of the train's capacity, or two passengers per door. Can SEPTA hire you to ride the trains and explain to the passengers riding in the (hazardous) door openings why you thought it was more important the crew be given a hideout than they be afforded a seat? |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Randyo on Sun Sep 26 17:12:59 2010, in response to PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by kp5308 on Sun Sep 26 11:43:51 2010. The rhetoric about transverse vs corner cabs notwithstanding, I think the Silverliner Vs have it all over the M-8s, and for that matter the M-7s, appearance wise. |
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Posted by R36 #9346 on Sun Sep 26 17:18:03 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Randyo on Sun Sep 26 16:42:15 2010. Some would certainly disagree, especially when they operate in full-width cabs almost all of the time. For instance, the other day I was on a train of R62A cars from Corona Yard, which were operating on the 1 line. The car I was in was the lead car northbound, and had a corner cab at the front. The motorman, a guy about 5 feet, 11 inches tall and between 320 and 350 pounds in weight, walks in and immediately mutters complaining words about how he now has to be confined in that "tiny" compartment for the trip up to Van Cortlandt Park. He does, however, manage to squeeze himself and his backpack in there and get the train to move. |
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Posted by arnine on Sun Sep 26 17:20:39 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by WillD on Sun Sep 26 17:08:41 2010. No, if you look at Mr. Painter's photos there is no latch, plus I believe I was told it was permanent. If their employees shirk their responsibilities b/c they have a full cab then they need to discipline those members but not make all the engineers suffer for those who did not do their job. As Mr. Painter said SEPTA should have given input to the employees esp. when they are losing space as they had full cabs prior to the SLVs, some goodwill would have helped.No, when train is ran at most 5 seats is lost no big deal other RRs have the same type of set up no one is complaining much well except railfans upset at the loss of RFW. If SEPTA wants to pay me to explain I'll take the job, but no need for it. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by TRANSIT JEFF on Sun Sep 26 17:22:48 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by WillD on Sun Sep 26 17:08:41 2010. Thank you WillD, nice to see somebody else with guts enough to "tell it like it is" !! It may not be popular with rail crews and employees, but it's the truth. Sometimes the truth hurts. And like I said, those rail crews should cherish their well paid jobs in these tough times. It's not a physically demanding or difficult job. Many people work far harder and earn far less, with less benefit packages.And I don't know why an engineer should complain about the new cabs. They're comfortably air-conditioned and heated {not cold and drafty} as well as quiet, compared to what they've been working in. And the new seat is far more comfortable and better for their back. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun Sep 26 17:31:41 2010, in response to PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by kp5308 on Sun Sep 26 11:43:51 2010. Awesome job and awesome shots again, Kevin!! :-)And goodness someone please reef those SLVs!! Ugly ugly UGH-LY!!! :-P |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Sep 26 17:34:01 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by arnine on Sun Sep 26 13:08:00 2010. An addendum:My apologies, now that I look at the photos I can see that a row of seats is not lost. But one seat is sacrificed and the entire row is made virtually useless because it is now facing the row behind it. But that seat is lost for every cab, regardless of whether it is occupied or not, and those two reverse seats are just as useless whether the cab door is opened or closed. This means that with the Silverliner V originally seating 108 as originally designed, the pairs will usefully seat 105, and the single cars will be reduced to 102. With the cab door closed that drops to 103 in a married pair, and 98 for a single car (with both cabs occupied). A three car train consisting of a married pair and a single car will seat 308 passengers, 16 fewer than a three car Silverliner V with all half-cabs. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Sun Sep 26 17:36:44 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by kp5308 on Sun Sep 26 13:01:37 2010. Where are the door controls on the fireman side located??? I do not see them in that first shot!! Or are they placed outside of the cab?? |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Sun Sep 26 17:37:24 2010, in response to PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by kp5308 on Sun Sep 26 11:43:51 2010. very nice photos |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by PATHman on Sun Sep 26 17:42:53 2010, in response to PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by kp5308 on Sun Sep 26 11:43:51 2010. Nice. The Silverliner V would look so much better without the paint scheme. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by arnine on Sun Sep 26 17:44:56 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by WillD on Sun Sep 26 17:34:01 2010. OK that still is not that terrible. I think SEPTA could have used a better design, either way thogh I still think the full width should be there for when an engineer is operating. We will see what happens. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Sep 26 17:51:45 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by arnine on Sun Sep 26 17:20:39 2010. No, if you look at Mr. Painter's photos there is no latch,There has to be a latch because the crew has to have some way of passing between the cab and the passenger cabin. You can see the latch in the photograph of 802's interior just above the left aisle seat. The fact that we can see the hinges of the bulkhead door on its right side indicates that it should be designed to swing 180 or more degrees. The cab door on the half cab models should already be designed to swing nearly 180 degrees to allow the car to be operated with the cab door open and stowed out of the way. The addition of the bulkhead just puts another point at which it can be latched. plus I believe I was told it was permanent Yes you were, you just clearly didn't understand what was meant by 'permanent'. It's only permanent in that the bulkhead wall cannot be folded down to remove the intrusion on the passenger cabin. But hey, lets assume you're right, and those two seats in the area opposite the cab are so the C/Rs have nice comfy couches for their new lounge. That means each cab end now loses a total of five seats (admittedly two are still there, they're just useless). A married pair would seat 103, and a single car would seat 98. That means our three car train would now get down to just 304, 20 fewer than a half-cab Silverliner V set. That is just fourteen more seats than a Silverliner IV set operating with every row filled other than the middle seat, and a truly pathetic figure. If their employees shirk their responsibilities b/c they have a full cab then they need to discipline those members but not make all the engineers suffer for those who did not do their job. That's almost as funny as Randyo's idea about 'requiring' the bulkhead window not be covered. As Mr. Painter said SEPTA should have given input to the employees esp. when they are losing space as they had full cabs prior to the SLVs, some goodwill would have helped. Apparently no one here is particularly familiar with SEPTA's experiences with their unions. SEPTA can be a bit combative at times, but the unions dish out much more than they take, and when SEPTA has sought input from their unions they usually come up with the worst stuff (PCC IIs, N-5s, NABIs, etc). No, when train is ran at most 5 seats is lost no big deal other RRs have the same type of set up no one is complaining much well except railfans upset at the loss of RFW. You need to learn to count. We're looking at least 12 seats being removed from three car trains for these cabs, with another six seats being rendered useless, or at least fit only for children to stand on to see out the bulkhead window. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Sep 26 18:06:20 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by arnine on Sun Sep 26 17:44:56 2010. Why do you hate passengers so much? They're the ones paying the bills, not the crew. Those sixteen passengers could represent upwards of one hundred dollars in lost revenue on each train. Additionally, sixteen passengers lost on each of the 240 trains SEPTA operates per day means they would leave 3840 people at the station every day. The revenue from those passengers would amount to upwards of 6.2 million dollars over the course of one year, or about 12% of their 2008 revenue. Do you want to make their budget deficits that much greater than they already are just to give their employees a location to slack off throughout their shift?Admittedly not every train will be a Silverliner V set, and the Silverliner IVs will persist for a few more years, but with those trains showing their age the Silverliner VI will be right around the corner and will likely replicate many of the Silverliner V's design features. If SEPTA caves to union pressure now they could easily see themselves lose four thousand potential trips per day and upwards of six million dollars a year once the Silverliner IVs are retired. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by kp5308 on Sun Sep 26 18:22:29 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by WillD on Sun Sep 26 17:51:45 2010. Apparently no one here is particularly familiar with SEPTA's experiences with their unions.Apparently SEPTA did not consider it to be in anyone's interest to meet with any employees who operate the equipment. To be sure the BLE can be a rough outfit, but does anyone recall the 80's SEPTA decision to try & turn the engineers into "motormen" experiment on the Fox Chase service? With that background how can anyone believe that the relationship would be good. IMHO the Brotherhoods/Regional Rail workers see this as another attemp (real or fabricated) to take another shot at tufting their union out. Did they look for employee feedback from other Agencies that have the corner cab? Not that I am aware of. Hey you commuter rail hoggers out there who run the corner cab cars....how's that working for ya? Be honest now! |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by arnine on Sun Sep 26 18:23:23 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by WillD on Sun Sep 26 17:51:45 2010. "There has to be a latch because the crew has to have some way of passing between the cab and the passenger cabin. You can see the latch in the photograph of 802's interior just above the left aisle seat. The fact that we can see the hinges of the bulkhead door on its right side indicates that it should be designed to swing 180 or more degrees. The cab door on the half cab models should already be designed to swing nearly 180 degrees to allow the car to be operated with the cab door open and stowed out of the way. The addition of the bulkhead just puts another point at which it can be latched."Yes it has a latch there but not where it would be stowed. See the top pic in this post: http://www.subchat.com/read.asp?Id=983206 Ther would be no couches the c/r's should be doing their job, if not SEPTA needs to warn their workers. SEPTA has had bad relations with their unions and both sides need to act better. But, they should have been sought for their input on going from full width cabs to half width cabs. "six seats being rendered useless" Wrong they are still seats and can people can choose to sit there or not. Only 1 cab per train should be full width so you have the two on the cab side of the partition and the three on the other side. Either way I think we have to agree to disagree. We can debate all we want but in the end SEPTA is the one who will have the final say. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Sep 26 18:23:53 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by PATHman on Sun Sep 26 17:42:53 2010. Sorry, bland silver boxes are way too boring. I'd rather a bad paint scheme than none at all.I think it would look better if the stripe went straight along the side, rather than the weird up-and-down thing they have going on. |
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Posted by arnine on Sun Sep 26 18:28:33 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by WillD on Sun Sep 26 18:06:20 2010. I don't hate pax esp. since I am one. But the engineer should be able to keep their full width cab as well. A happy employee is a productive one. Funny how SEPTA hasn't complained about that loss of revenue with all the previous Silverliners. Let's agree to disagree because at the end of the day SEPTA will make the final decision. |
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Posted by kp5308 on Sun Sep 26 18:32:19 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Sep 26 18:23:53 2010. I think one set (or car) should be left solid silver with READING COMPANY in Extended Railroad Roman lettering (or just READING) in the traditional letterboard location with a blue underbody to pay homage to The Crusader |
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Posted by arnine on Sun Sep 26 18:42:54 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by kp5308 on Sun Sep 26 18:32:19 2010. Why not all of them? :) |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Sep 26 18:47:02 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by arnine on Sun Sep 26 18:23:23 2010. Yes it has a latch there but not where it would be stowed. The wall for the half cab is still present at far right, so the door 'latch' is hidden behind the door jamb. For what its worth, that's actually the striker plate because it is affixed to the wall, the latch is on the door itself. The bulkhead door still has the armrest under the window, which means all they've done is rotated the door 90 degrees to align it with the bulkhead wall. The cab door is the bulkhead door, and thus the cab can be 'folded down' to provide access to the two end seats when the full width cab is not in use. Ther would be no couches the c/r's should be doing their job, if not SEPTA needs to warn their workers. Still uproariously funny that you think SEPTA's supervisors are worth anything. But also still incorrect because it is clear the bulkhead door and the cab door are one and the same, and thus the two seats at the car end would be accessible to passengers when that car was not occupying either the front or rear positions in a train. SEPTA has had bad relations with their unions and both sides need to act better. But, they should have been sought for their input on going from full width cabs to half width cabs. Why? SEPTA is providing their engineers with a cab that provides comfort unrivaled in their existing rolling stock outside of the AEMs and ALPs. What critical, specific functionality does the full width cab provide that a half cab does not, which makes it worthy of upward of 6 million dollars a year in revenue being sacrificed? "six seats being rendered useless" Wrong they are still seats and can people can choose to sit there or not. Yeah, right. You're a regular laugh riot. Try telling the R3 and R5 riders that, when they will stand before occupying the middle seat. I'd wait for them to burn that kneeknocker seat on general principles, and I'm sure there isn't a jury in southeast Pennsylvania that'd convict them of arson, once they'd seen the foolishness foisted on SEPTA by their unions. Only 1 cab per train should be full width so you have the two on the cab side of the partition and the three on the other side. Wait, I thought this was about safety and keeping passengers away from the 'dangerous' parts of the train. At least that's what the BLE and UTU keep saying. How is the front of the train any less dangerous than the back of the train? Surely if my train is going to hit another train, there's a damn good chance it's going to hit the back of that other train. If that is the case then why are we only concerned about the front of the train rather than both ends? Oh right, because there's no engineer at the back end to sit and shoot the shit with at the back end. |
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Posted by arnine on Sun Sep 26 18:56:29 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by WillD on Sun Sep 26 18:47:02 2010. "Why? SEPTA is providing their engineers with a cab that provides comfort unrivaled in their existing rolling stock outside of the AEMs and ALPs. What critical, specific functionality does the full width cab provide that a half cab does not, which makes it worthy of upward of 6 million dollars a year in revenue being sacrificed?"The cab size IINM is the same size as the current Silverliners, am I wrong? Also, how come SEPTA hasn't complained about the $6 Million lost before?? Well, if SEPTA trains are rear ended that often to keep the end cab full-width SEPTA should be taken over by another agency. It is clear you and I aren't gonna agree. So, let us just agree to disagree and see what develops. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by TRANSIT JEFF on Sun Sep 26 19:11:31 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by WillD on Sun Sep 26 18:47:02 2010. WillD, I love you, man !! You "tell it like it is" !! Neither of us will win a popularity contest among rail operating employees. But nobody can deny that we're right. Thank you...... |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Sun Sep 26 19:15:42 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by TRANSIT JEFF on Sun Sep 26 16:49:30 2010. You should see the problems on the Paoli-Thorndale line. Inbound after Paoli, the stations are 1-1/2 minutes apart.The conductors really work, sometimes they miss a few of us. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by TRANSIT JEFF on Sun Sep 26 19:23:50 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by arnine on Sun Sep 26 18:28:33 2010. Some SEPTA operating employees are very happy {on payday} and extremely thrilled when they do little or nothing, are rude to the paying public and answer to nobody.What really scares me here is that SEPTA, notorious for having no backbone, will cave in to the operating employees on this issue. That would be really sad. If you would have sought employee imput on the cab issue, they would have suggested that there be television sets, coffee pots, tables for them to eat, wi fi hook-ups, computers and stereo speakers in the full-width cabs. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by TRANSIT JEFF on Sun Sep 26 19:28:09 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Sep 26 18:23:53 2010. Hey, they paid some design consultant big bucks for that "weird up and down thing". Oh well, the consultants might as well hate me too.... |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by arnine on Sun Sep 26 19:32:49 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by TRANSIT JEFF on Sun Sep 26 19:23:50 2010. That is an exaggeration. Sorry. Many systems have full width cabs with no issue.Believe what you will. SEPTA should have given input and taken decent suggestions. I think SEPTA should have convertible cabs with a better look. But let us just agree to disagree. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by TRANSIT JEFF on Sun Sep 26 19:47:06 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by arnine on Sun Sep 26 19:32:49 2010. Fine arnine...you're a gentleman. That seems to be a rarity here on this site. The blatant nastyness is what prompted me to stop posting here quite a while ago. We could all act civilly to each other here. If somebody has a different opinion on a subject, fine, voice it. But what got me was the name calling and downright nastyness displayed by some people here. Maybe things have improved in the many months since I've visited this site. I certainly hope so. Maybe the moderators are keeping a tighter control of things now. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Sun Sep 26 19:51:45 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by TRANSIT JEFF on Sun Sep 26 19:28:09 2010. I'm not a big fan of that crazy stripe, either./ |
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Posted by arnine on Sun Sep 26 19:55:10 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by TRANSIT JEFF on Sun Sep 26 19:47:06 2010. Thanks you too. I may disagree with your stance but there is no reason for name calling or any nastiness. My thing is people can disagree but why make it ugly? Have your disagreement but do it nicely. Things have gotten better and hope it stays that way :) |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Sep 26 20:56:33 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Sep 26 18:23:53 2010. bland silver boxes are way too boringNo they aren't. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Sep 26 21:20:31 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by arnine on Sun Sep 26 18:56:29 2010. The cab size IINM is the same size as the current Silverliners, am I wrong?It may be smaller, especially with the half cabs, but in terms of depth from seatback to controller/front window it is larger, which should be easier on the engineers. But when I mentioned comfort I was more or less referring to the creature comforts and climate of the new cabs. The seats are better, the controllers are more ergonomic, the HVAC is vastly superior, and the tinted window on the cab door provides more privacy than they ever had with the window in the bulkhead door. Admittedly I have yet to sit in the Silverliner V cabs, but just looking at the cab layout leads me to believe it'll be a much better workspace for the engineers. It's possible the crews will be unhappy with the change, but I think those who have operated the AEMs will find the Silverliner Vs a nice change from the older MUs. I have gotten a few cab rides in Silverliner IIs and IVs, and in the winter they were remarkably cold, with an icy blast from the doors that don't quite seal and a pathetic amount of heat from a ventilator that can't keep up. A sealed cab integrated into the passenger cabin HVAC is a tremendous boon to the engineer's comfort, far more so than a crew lounge for his conductors. Also, how come SEPTA hasn't complained about the $6 Million lost before?? Because it was never lost before. The Silverliner IIs and IVs may have full width cabs in the vestibules, but they also have full length 3+2 seating, which gives them a capacity of 120 passengers (or more for the SIIs, perhaps 130). The Silverliner Vs have 2+2 seating between the doors, with 3+2 at the car ends beyond the doors. This was done because the Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers requested SEPTA avoid full 3+2 seating on their railcars. Thus with 108 passengers the Silverliner Vs represent a reduction in capacity relative to the prior cars of about 12 passengers per car. However, that is a voluntary reduction in the supply of seats on the part of the customers, and as such one can expect SEPTA to raise their rates according to the relatively constant demand for those seats, so in theory it should be revenue neutral. Space given over for the sole benefit of the crew comes at a cost to both SEPTA and the passengers. Well, if SEPTA trains are rear ended that often to keep the end cab full-width SEPTA should be taken over by another agency. It's all hypothetical, because the only argument against half-cabs, other than the 'we want our R&R space', is "but, if..." rationalization. We've heard lines about "but, if a freight car tips over beside the engineer, how will he escape?", or "but if a train is about to hit a wall, how will the passengers get out?", or "but if a rock is thrown at the train, how will the passengers deal with it?" All these arguments fall flat because we don't have these problems with the existing rolling stock. Every excuse offered is just a hypothetical situation which could happen and thus represents a reason to reduce the seating capacity in the Silverliner Vs. But all of these excuses focus solely on the front end, because that is where the crew can congregate. If the front of the train really is so dangerous, then it stands to reason the rear end should also be off-limits because it is almost every bit as dangerous. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by arnine on Sun Sep 26 21:33:30 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by WillD on Sun Sep 26 21:20:31 2010. OK those changes are ok on the climate issues, which sound better. As far as the loss of seats, I see now what you meant. I did not realize until your example here that it went from 120 / 130 to 108. That is a big difference. I think while the majority hasn't been delivered SEPTA should try and redesign the cab areas, don't know if it is possible. I see what you are saying about the hypotheticals, I tend to agree too. The rear too me should remain half cab vs. full cab but the rationale would be full cab since front too. I think both sides should sit down and try to agree to something. Thanks for the info BTW :) |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Sep 26 23:25:53 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by arnine on Sun Sep 26 12:17:39 2010. Maybe they should do what MNR & LIRR does it when there is an operator in that car the cab is full cab, and when the car is behind the lead it is a 1/2 cab. No, I don't think they should do that. Take Pride,
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by arnine on Mon Sep 27 00:37:23 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Sep 26 23:25:53 2010. Ok that is your opinion. :) |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Sep 27 00:40:58 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by TRANSIT JEFF on Sun Sep 26 16:23:04 2010. It's a shame that someone with a high paying secure job can't take a little more pride in customer service. I mean if they were working for Wal*Train making $8 an hour I'd expect that sort of service, but last I checked even SEPTA paid a good living wage with substantial benefits and you don't need a 4-year degree to get hired. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Sep 27 00:45:42 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by kp5308 on Sun Sep 26 18:22:29 2010. Why should the BLE have any say on how much space they get? If they don't like the conditions they can go find a job with another transit agency. Right now there are thousands of people picking our fruits and vegetables for below minimum wage in the hot sun, yet the SEPTA unions have the gaul to bitch and moan about the new cars lacking space for a crew lounge. Shame on them. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Sep 27 00:49:05 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by WillD on Sun Sep 26 21:20:31 2010. If the front end is so dangerous then deadhead crews should clearly be prohibited from riding there as well.Reminds me of when NJT conductors refused to open some of the cars in the consist, but allowed deadhead employees to ride in them. Well after some complaints the new Christie appointees put the smack-down on them and now NOBODY is allowed in the closed cars. Another victory for organized labour. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Sep 27 01:36:34 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Sep 26 12:39:08 2010. No, SEPTA can't violate any agreements. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Sep 27 05:14:34 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by arnine on Mon Sep 27 00:37:23 2010. Nope, it's the railfans' and passengers' opinion. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Sep 27 05:34:59 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Sep 26 20:56:33 2010. Yes they are.Now, corrugated silver boxes are a different matter :). |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by kp5308 on Mon Sep 27 07:41:04 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Sep 27 00:45:42 2010. Why should the BLE have any say on how much space they get? If they don't like the conditions they can go find a job with another transit agencyThats the idea.....screw them workers! And the union they rode in on. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by Railman718 on Mon Sep 27 08:11:06 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Sep 27 05:14:34 2010. In other words your opinion since you are a railfan.. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by arnine on Mon Sep 27 08:21:33 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Terrapin Station on Mon Sep 27 05:14:34 2010. Ok so you took a survey of every single railfan and every single passenger?Sorry it is still your opinion, as my saying they should have the full cab is my opinon. |
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Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2 |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Sep 27 08:37:16 2010, in response to Re: PHOTOS: SEPTA Rail Rodeo-2, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Sep 27 05:34:59 2010. I built and designed semi-trailers. The corrugated side looked better.Except the flat sides where better for decals. Corrugated |
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